This post is influenced by u/Archwinger's "Men are not happy."
RE : The reevaluation of male expectations in a relationship and the resulting outcomes.
Archwinger observes the reason why these things happen, and blue pill men and women offer their judgement on these observations. I'm going to comment on the decision economics and strategy involved.
It should be noted if you are only spinning plates, or do not have children, or will never have children then this post will be of little value to you outside of understanding the decision economics. In these cases, an overnight bag and a new phone number end the problem. And any other situation where you're focusing your effort on a single woman in which you don't have children with, your attempt to call due any debt on your value has a negative return on investment in terms of time invested to return. In these cases, you shop in the open market and reset your value instantly if she calls your bluff.
Before & After
Blue pill men and women address the relationship in the before and after state. And they address it as correct and failed. As in, the relationship was correctly oriented then failed when men asserted their value. Sort of a moral warning. "You better not try and assert your value, or, you'll lose the one." Maybe even your kids. If the relationship has not failed, it is abusive or going to fail.
Archwinger disputes this by positing the relationship as one in which we can argue at least one of the parties is unhappy, who then takes the reins and begins to get some of what they want, risking failure in the process.
Fundamentally what blue pill men and women are not addressing here, is that these situations are really men who are realizing the value they bring and are calling due the debts accumulated by the women in these relationships while they work on increasing their own value.
When a woman is unwilling to pay up, then both the man and the woman agree that they can't meet each others expectations. The correct thing for this relationship to have done at this point is actually to have "failed."
Balloon payments and adjustable rate relationship mortgages
So now you've got a guy that is unhappy about some part or many parts of the relationship who has a set of expectations, and he'll move through the stages of dread but ultimately it comes down to two parties entering a hostile negotiation.
These women then either have to pay up, trade while attempting to prevent accumulating negative equity or default.
When a woman decides she's made an error in the value of the mate she's chosen and treated him below his new found evaluation of value, she pays up. It would be too forgiving to assign this as a function of her misattribution of value. In this case you can expect she's already shopped for a replacement and realized that she was wrong. She didn't come to this conclusion based on your demands or facts. But instead based on her doing an opportunity cost analysis. This is a very important contribution that all men should pay close attention to. If you make a large demand that she has rebuffed before, and in short time she accepts your demands, it is very likely she's already done actual choice analysis.
There can be a large degree of pulling teeth here. But the takeaway here is that ultimately she decides she will pay the demands to prevent default.
Men have often posited that "going beta" is one of the best ways to get a woman to leave a relationship, I can't disagree more.
It is my belief, and I will write to it in the future, that men should raise their cost until such a cost is no longer tenable. More often than not, men will realize their value is much higher than they thought.
Turns out that maybe you are worth a threesom, a girl on the side, getting better or more sex etc. Maybe not, that's up to her and you can't be operating under the idea of not rocking the boat. If that is how you're going to play, then you're entitled only to her desired valuation. That is the price you pay for outcome dependence.
Blue pill men and women operate under a presumption that for a woman to pay up is wrong. They won't have a very specific reason why, just that you're changing the rules of the game. And in fact, I believe this objection is innate.
It is my personal experience that a woman being influenced to pay up, can only be done with a man's willingness to leave and exercise options in two domains.
- His time and attention
- His physical fidelity
I do not believe women will tolerate emotional infidelity coupled with physical infidelity in any meaningful amount.
On process
For any man who feels that he is undervalued, and is willing to leave the relationship he is in, the mechanics are simple.
- State your demands in a polite manner : "I'm unsatisfied with X, and I expect Y because Z."
- When these demands are met, repeat step 1 for other issues.
- If you are satisfied with the relationship at this point, stop.
- If these demands are not met, withdraw your willingness to give your time and association and begin the process of revoking your fidelity, overtly.
The situation will resolve itself much quicker than you think.
On failure
Failure is a real possibility for a lot of reasons when someone tries to change or reboot a relationship that has operated under provisioning principles. The most obvious of which, is that the relationship was built under a paradigm which is fundamentally suboptimal and misaligned with arousal. If your read studies on arousal and long term relationship orientation, you'll see a trend. Women select against a lot of arousing traits in the long term mate, and select for unarrousing traits. That's because for most women her selection for a long term mate can be based on only a few usual outcomes.
- He is a prospective father for her children, and expects that he will raise them.
- He supports her lifestyle through status or niche fetishes (and is controllable)
The first is evident by selecting for traits that are correlated against arousal, such as nurturing and other traits that indicate there is a primary interest in being able to control her mate. The goal here is to make sure he sticks around and can't leverage value in the SMP.
The second is evident by a myriad of interests and non-primary attraction triggers given substantial preference in selection. These are primarily upper and upper middle class women who look for men who give them status who are primarily fetishising shared interests or attitudes into some amalgamation of arousal ("I love that we're both gamers"). This is lampooned in The Lobster as their "distinguishing characteristic."
These men and women are looking for some post-hoc rationalization for a minimal amount of attraction and some ill defined future goal for their relationship (which usually in this arrangement is child free, at least for the time). Otherwise the relationship would subsist on pure arousal alone or would be a family arrangement.
Where this all starts to go very wrong is when the men involved in these arrangements start to place what they perceive to be accurate valuations on their contribution to the pairing and begin to see their bargaining position deteriorate. They struggle to understand why they can't demand their value, not realizing they have none. And that their values are not shared between male and females.
Either he believes that him being the father of their children to be very important, or that his unique composition and history with the woman to be more important than it truly is.
These incongruities are simple to pick apart.
Their children is instead her children. The nuclear family is a recent, male value system, which is evident when you align it with Briffault's law. There is an expectation that men will take care of their children, so this presupposition is the basis of it having little to no value.
If she does have to trade, she assumes he will share parenting. And therefore she can pair off with another lemon, in the market for lemons, that is sharing parenting. If such an expectation is revoked, she will quickly realize that not many men have the time or patience to deal with a full time single mother. I will write about this more in the future.
If this is revoked as a presumption, she will properly value this input. And it is very large. If not, his parental contribution will hold no value. She'll use it in good times to puff up your ego, but make no mistake, men provide little value to children directly. Their primary purpose is to provide boundaries and run the household. I've been told I make a terrible mother, and I agree. Men should not congratulate themselves on their nurturing skills, though no man should feel shame enjoying things such as sleeping with an infant, tickling a toddler etc. Taking parenting hyper literal is no different than the story of the guy "holding frame on his boss."
The second largest valuation deficit is a man's belief that his relationship and history with a woman, along with their "distinguishing characteristics" hold value. They do not. This is also related to Briffault's law. Men in the protector category are not exempt from this. What this means, is that men are disposable. We compete.
The only real provisioning value men hold are their relationships to their children and willingness to provide child care. All other provisioning values are likely available readily and freely with a replacement mate.
Men who compete on a strictly physical or sexual basis will always have a guy who is better looking or better in bed. And even if such a thing wasn't true, there'd be someone almost as good, but different.
Valuation inefficiencies in men who reorient themselves to female value systems
The most common area to "clean up" will be the difference between what a woman is willing to give a man who can maintain attraction and what she has been giving him when he's undervalued himself and lacked the frame to set clear expectations.
The process above remains the same. But ask yourself "what are some reasonable demands I have, that aren't being met?"
Don't fight every battle, but demand and expect change. This is also a great area to see if the woman in your life is holding you in a degree of contempt. A recent post talks about making small requests and paying attention.
Maybe you'll realize she doesn't even think you're worth being polite to. And once you realize that, you won't feel so bad as you boil the frog. In the process you'll find out what you're really worth.
And turns out, it's probably a lot higher than you think.

Rian_Stone 8y ago
DO NOT overtly talk like this when starting your MAP. Communicate this through actions. Otherwise, it WILL be a bluff, you WILL get called on it. and you WILL back off, because you aren't willing to pull the pin.
Focus on the early point of OP's post. build your value until the cost isn't tennable. Women are largely interchangeable in this context, and you'd be surprised how many can put in the effort when required.
Note, this isn't conscious. They are ACTUALLY attracted to those unattractive traits, Beta Bux isn't pulling a fast one on you, her emotional state convinces her this is what she wants, because it is at that time. Also note, that by being compartmentalized into betabux, you may never get to alphafux with that woman. She bought a minivan, if all of a sudden someone turns it into a Ferrari (well, maybe a civic SI) women won't inherently become fans of taking the kids to sportsball practice in a Ferrari. WE have a few divorced guys who found this to be the case. She didn't want a lover, she wanted a provider and co dependant.
I know this will ruffle some feathers, as it should.
you've basically described a Male Action Plan
Very interesting writing, and I've not seen it presented in this way before. I do know the guys who are hell bent on being 'spreadsheet men' will love the presentation. The only thing I would say, in my experience, is that every place you say a man should tell, talk, or say; those things should be read as 'act'. Sub-communication is strong. A guy telling his woman to 'calm down' when she is angry gets no where. A man who leaves for a few hours, and could potentially be banging some strange (even if he is only heading to a starbucks for a few hours of peace and quiet, or the gym) says the same thing, only effectively. I have two sayings to illustrate the point:
/u/sadomasochrist , something you may have missed the first time. I know some of your concerns with the message in a red pill lens. Unless this was purposeful, you're not only describing a MAP, but a "mid-life crisis" as well
To end. Every fucking moron in here telling us he doesn't need to lift, be hawt, or how women are all snowflakes, read this post again and remember. No one is special, we are all pretty much interchangeable. This story up above has at least 12k guys living it at some level in RP.
And you will too, the only difference is this time, you'll have a safety net
sadomasochrist 8y ago
You know I think you bring up a good point, what I'm describing is more accurately somewhere around Dread level 10. This is basically a Dread level 10 class. I wasn't intending this as a template for guys who are not even getting oral sex.
That being said, guys in relationships they're unhappy enough to leave should be using this advice anyways in combination with self improvement.
So I suppose this could supplement the MAP and 12 steps of dread and be focused on the tough stages, level 10+.
I don't find this to be accurate but I think it can be part of one. For me, a midlife crisis is when a guy realizes he hasn't done the things he's wanted to do in his life. For me, I did everything I wanted to.
Even up to the point of realizing my dreams were hollow, I self actualized before I was 30. I owned a dream car, ran a successful business, got formally educated etc.
But the price I paid for that were some serious gaps in intersexual understanding of which I spent a couple years getting it to a point where I understood "the system." I believe I've reached that point. To be clear I was never straight blue pill, I was a "purple pill" guy which is why I beat that drum so hard. It's a terrible orientation to have. My content is basically what takes a guy from a red pill aware skeptic to a true unplugging. I was concerned about receptiveness, but I actually get a lot of PMs. I think I have an audience, that is more or less me years ago.
I think the vast majority of guys in a situation where their family unwinds will externalize the reason and misattribute the failure and mechanisms.
So I'm having trouble supporting this angle, but would be open to hearing more. But I can certainly see how realizing that your loyalty and offerings having no value to a woman could fuel that. But I think it's impossible for most men to even process what is happening there.
The most common reaction I think for men at that point is to give up trying to rationalize what happened, which is actually what my father did when I asked him to do a post mortem.
I know what happened to my parents, and they don't, it's bazaar. My mom even hop scotches all over on what happened and the time line, she can't even remember if she was cheating or not (she was).
I think I've somewhat sorted this out, but it's only my personal hypothesis. I think the template of protector + Mark Manson's observation of provisioning behavior is the correct frame for a family for a guy who is prepared to lose it for the average woman.
I do not believe women love providers outside of the honeymoon window unless they are n=0 before. Then I think their hypergamic frame of reference, idealized image of a man, and her reality are essentially close enough that she can love him in that fantasy way.
In this case, I think MRP is fine and even preferred because a woman's frame is actually a blue pill frame. After n=1, I think it rapidly changes and it's a runaway freight train depending on circumstance. As you can tell, I'm not a fan of MRP. Though I think for much older generations of women it's probably the best framework.
I just don't think it's going to be valid going forward with women having double digit n counts. They need to be treated like plates basically.
The women you are describing that can appreciate a modern provisioning relationship are more or less gone. The only two I've seen working, one the guy is as close to red pilled as you can be while still being blue pilled, complete with a prison sentence doing a tradcon. Threesoms and all that, so I don't know that you can group that in the same. It works and it works well. Duty of performance and all that.
The other is a straight blue pill relationship, but she's SMV3 and he's SMV6.5. So... yeah. If you want a 3? That's literally the only straight provider relationship I know that is working. Every other one, the woman holds the guy in contempt, they're on thin ice etc.
Rian_Stone 8y ago
I've seen similar. Will have to finish my post on this issue to articulate my thoughts better.
Learned a new term, Heterae. I'm thinking this is the male female relationship going forward for most. I know it more accurately reflects mine than anything.
sadomasochrist 8y ago
The traditional understanding of the term is going to make that a tough sell. But I've been pretty surprised at the number of women who now actually sell their body. I think the girls we used to think were total sluts, so maybe 3 or 4 in your high school class are now the girls that are on SeekingArrangement and the like.
Rian_Stone 8y ago
If they don't desire you as king dick, it IS selling one's body, just with a layer of deny ability attached.
The language doesn't differ much from how sugar babies are hookers.
Even my girl, love her a bunch... You see that same dynamic play out. Only difference is I command a high price for it. Do I get max price? Maybe, I do know I'm not settling for half asset though. The weak spots are getting addressed, and enjoy and encourage the strong points.
Rian_Stone 8y ago
Oh, and on the exestential crisis (I refer to your mid life crisis as) is also a dangerous place. That's the place for purple pillers to give comforting truths to a man, and is that Disney lie we talk about.
Those people aren't even trying to help that. Man, they are coddling the lies they tell themselves.
sadomasochrist 8y ago
Boy do I have a story for you.
What actually happened is that I went through cPTSD to be honest. I was released from its grip when I had a sufficient enough explanation of the totality of events, reasoning and circumstances that such a thing can not happen again.
It's part of the body's threat avoidance system. Basically telling you that your firmware is out of date. The firmware isn't self aware in so far as it knows what you learn, but when confronted with evidence that your worldview is profoundly incorrect that is beyond the realm of denial, then that's what happens.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Snke9v4S2rU
So you see, without this we wouldn't even be talking. My predisposition to skepticism kept me locked away from a full unplug until I had sufficiently constructed the mechanics in my mind in a way that was beyond praxeology and closer approximated a working behavioral model.
And a video similar to the one I posted allowed me to finally relax.
After that I went through an existential crisis because I couldn't reconcile any reason to really continue on. Not in a "I'm going to kill myself" type of way, but that I didn't really see a purpose.
Which the ultimate answer to this was two observations
TRP, ultimately, is about perfect acceptance of the underlying structure of human biological sociosexual interaction and orienting yourself perfectly to that reality.
Unhappiness is when you try to run against that. We're all in a weird way on processes to become monks. Without the religious aspect of it.
One could say we are on the way to a new religion if we can find a way to sanitize the caustic language.
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Rian_Stone 8y ago
I sincerely hope not. Going pro is gonna fuck up our game.
And it's part of the package. It's almost impossible to sell RP to a man unless he gets burned first. Tanner Guzy has wondered this for a while now, and we've yet to come up with a good answer on how to be proactive.
Seems that the only difference between you and I; I have no discomfort in that chaotic space. Shit got bad, I got angry, and did the same thing I always do when times get tough. I throw on blinders to anything else but the problem at hand, and attack it full force. In this case, I built a plan, had a strategy, and read and studied like a motherfucker. It's why I can throw out references from shit back to 2010 off the top of my head to a mans question in here. I've burned my life to the ground and started again a few times now, so I was blessed in that I didn't have issue swallowing the pill.
And the JBP quote is the exact reason MRP's Own your shit weekly thread is so effective. It's pure Redpill. Swap notes, articulate and learn from experience, attached with as much responsibility as possible. It is funny, I did come to the same conclusion, minus the psychology degree. Take back a situation far enough, there is always a point that you made a decision, focus on that and ignore the shit that isn't your fault.
Fuck. I hadn't watched this one before, but fuck if he isn't describing a TRP praxeology 100%. I wouldn't be surprised if he read all this stuff, after all, he did study PUA for a while.
sadomasochrist 8y ago
Proceeds to describe exactly what I did. I don't know that we have any true disagreements honestly. My thoughts on whether or not this can be sanitized I'm still playing with, but roughly, I've had the idea if you remove gender it seems to sort of work. Then I just need to find the true areas that don't share congruence and figure out how to deal with that.
E.g.
"As long as we are in love with someone, they can do no wrong."
That is a statement that both sides of the isle can agree on. The fundamental disconnect IMO is that men are attracted to 80% of women and women 20% of men. So the true disconnect there is that women easily fall out of love with men among other things.
"Being a loyal partner is important"
Is a statement that women in general can't get behind.
But that's how you sneak in the red pill the best I can see it. You just state red pill truths agnostically, in polite ways, and 95% of it is digestible.
For instance "women are children" would be something like "treat women in the way which shows them the best side of life" or something like that.
TRP IMO does need to sort that issue out. We're on the ground floor here of something that's getting big.
I'm not condoning this here, just wondering how it could be repackaged for profit.
Rian_Stone 8y ago
Who said we are disagreeing?
I can't recall the term for it. It was how the scientific method that applies to things that aren't provable, due to being unable to isolate their variables.
You do a bunch of work from a bunch of different angles, and then you can draw theory by how they appear to converge.
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yummyluckycharms 8y ago
Interesting write up - could do with some editing and tidying up as in some sections you over explain a concept that could be summarized with one sentence.
Another thing that you've missed is the valuation factor for married women when they default and the paradox that this entails. Meaning, that as a man accumulates more monetary value, he has more to lose while the woman has more to gain in a default scenario. In many cases, a man is worth more to a woman divorced than he is married to her.
There is also the opportunity cost for women of not divorcing - the longer they spend with this male, the older they get and lower SMV they will have, and thus, lower chances of snagging another male post divorce. Every women is thinking about if I dump the current guy, what could I get as an alternative. Combined with the point above, the opportunity cost plus the divorce valuation would mean that most rational women should be seeing anything outside of divorce as suboptimal
I know quite a few women who have played this game quite well and are currently enjoying the fruits of multiple divorce settlements, have multiple pensions to live off it, and can spoil boy toys till the cows came home.
Ultimately, its a truism that when a man gets married, he's already lost and the woman has already won. There is a reason why men are avoiding marriage
Your_Coke_Dealer 8y ago
Good writeup, but one nuance to the "going beta" part: that isn't a universally advisable way to end a relationship in general. The best way to end a relationship, drop a plate, etc., is to just say you're done and walk out. Nothing beats decisive action. But the one instance it helps to deliberately make it look like your frame is rotten is when you're dealing with crazy. It's sometimes a less risky proposition to have a woman leave you calmly over general "not feeling it" than have her blow up on you for just picking up and walking out
ENOUGH_TRUMP_SPAM_ 8y ago
Don't verbalize your demands, just do them (within reason)
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Self-honest 8y ago
Great post. I think the general attitude you are discussing here is the essence of being a man. You push limits to get what you're worth. If it ends in "failure" that's great, you're free to get what you're worth elsewhere. If you get what you want, it's still not permanent and will eventually come to an end. Gotta live life.
JRcanReid 8y ago
Archwinger was one of my favorites here. I hope he's still here under another name. He had a lot of good advice for guys like me who are already fucked (married).
HumanInsecticide 8y ago
wow. This describes my situation to a T. We have a 6 month old boy. We weren't together during the pregnancy. She then sniffs out her ex jailbird Chad and attempts to convince him that it's his son when she knows it's myne. He shows up right after the birth and becomes the provider caretaking guy. About a month and a half after, they split.up again She texts me up talking about how I haven't seen my son yada yada. Guilt.trip when it wasn't my choice. She invites me over and of course I take the opportunity to see my 3 month old for the FIRST time. We end up making up and the next thing you know we're back together and having sex. Meanwhile in the back of my mind I'm wondering what the hell is going to happen and if Chad is going to show up at the door. But I don't care because I'm just happy to see my son. So things go on for a while and about a month and a half later, right before Christmas she texts me at work about how it was a mistake to back with me etc. I'm floored but not surprised. Especially reading the red pill for the past year. Obviously I'm blue pulled and I know it. Anyways, I'm still visiting my son and hanging out at her place at this point. I read her fb messages and found out she was trying to contact with her ex who was in jail. Which is why he didn't show up. He is a manipulator and classic dark triad personality. She wants to "help" him. And she's going to let him stay at her place. And now I'm out and working a 40 hour a week job. It's disgusting to watch the nightmare play out before my eyes knowing what I've learned about the red pill. She tried telling me I owe her 100$ a month. Telling me he's going to talk to me. I told her mother and father need to come to an agreement. I stood my ground and called her the other day and a red.pill styled way told her to cut out the demands for money or other things. That I will give on my terms and when I'm capable and if she wants help with the baby that we will come to an agreement otherwise I will not engage with her. After the call I said no more texts, no more calls, if you want help it's up to you to call me so we can come to an agreement. She gave me the "I was just asking" rationalization excuse when it was clearly demanding. And she said "Chad" will tell you to text not call. So she thinks this guy is going to get to call me up and tell me how im going to interact with my son and what I need to do for it to happen. Yah right. The reason I stood my ground after the demands to pay her 100$ is because I already know where that will lead. I GI've an inch and she will take a mile. 100$ will turn into $200 and so on and so forth. I will hang the phone up if I hear another man's voice on the other end. And it's horrible to not be able to see my son I feel I did the right thing. I know she wants my son and I to see each other but the pull of Chad is strong. So I'm fucked.
Wondering what your take is in it and how it relates to your post.
sadomasochrist 8y ago
DNA test obviously.
Schwifty007 8y ago
I'd say there more to it, but correct me if I'm wrong. If he didn't sign the certificate, he can't be forced to pay alimony right? (don't know where OP is living) But once he takes a DNA test and it proves he's the father, she can make him pay for it, while using that money to sustain herself and her badboy Chad.
What might follow, what I think will happen, is that she will keep taking his money and then use her Chad to keep him off her kid. OP will then have to undertake legal actions, which will cost him a shit ton of money, for him to (try to) see his kid. Even then, she will most likely brainwash the kid into thinking OP is bad, yada yada to make it turn against its dad.
Also, I feel like Chad still thinks it's his kid? Doubt he'll stay with her once he realizes it isn't, except for the casual pump and dump... This woman will provide an unstable environment for the kid and will fuck up the kid.
[deleted] 8y ago
I see only 1 problem on the horizon
The more demands that are met, the more inflated the male ego will get. Once he meets the precipice of demands she is willing to comply with, a man lacking in introspection may feel he's worth more than his actual SMV.
The fool could go on to trash everything he has built for himself and never recover in the eyes of his wife/gf. And if kids are in the mix, abundance mentality may not help him in this situation.
Side note, not against the post. By all means, do it. Just be careful
Rian_Stone 8y ago
Yeah, that would be a fucking shame.
You're talking about Rambo, and their problem isn't going to be changed by running a MAP. They will fuck up regardless of any don't eat paint warnings on this. So, instead of teaching to the lowest common denominator, let them fail fast, so they can move on. It's a mans own responsibility to have a modicum of self awareness.
Besides, even stupid people tend to learn if they are smacked down enough