Edit: Hello non-RP(W) lurkers, please remember that commenting and/or voting on this thread is against the rules.
Take care!
:0)
This is just a quick little field report that I thought I'd share. Occam and I went out to buy groceries together, and at the check-out he asked the female cashier for two bags. As we're packing the items, I tell him that I can get everything packed with just those two bags. Right after that Occam says to the cashier: "I'll take another one, I'm bad at listening." in a joking tone.
Without missing a beat, she (the cashier) turns to me and says "Most men are" with a bit of a snicker (she clearly expects me to nod in agreement and/or make a dig at Occam as well).
I smile and say "He actually makes better decisions than I do."
At that point, she tries to back-track and change what she initially mean. "Oh! I was just kidding!" (her voice is higher pitched now, and her laugh sounds nervous).
Occam loads the bags in the cart and I simply tell the the cashier to have a good day as we head to the door.
Normally I don't step in when someone tries to undercut Occam, because he's fully capable of handling things himself. The reason I did so in this case is simply because the woman directed her comment at me specifically. She expected me to side with her because it's socially acceptable to rib on men publicly (I've never heard of an instance where a male employee has 'bantered' in a negative way towards a woman when she's out with her SO). She was anticipating a "team woman" moment, and when I defied her expectations, she immediately tried to recover as best she could.
I will say that it doesn't matter at all whether or not /u/occamsusername actually makes better decisions than I do - in that moment, my motivation was to clearly and decisively send a message to this employee that her 'joke' wasn't appreciated. I simply don't understand why an employee at any establishment would think it's acceptable to insult a customer simply because he's male and happens to be with an SO/wife.
I hope the cashier thinks twice about trying to make unwarranted 'jabs' at customers in the future because of her exchange with me, but even if she doesn't, Occam was still impressed with my initiative (I'm very quiet and don't normally say anything other than the 'basics' in situations like that ("hello, how are you," "thank you," and "have a good day" etc).

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PhantomDream09 11y ago
Okay, you take care now.
:0)
scallopkid 11y ago
My favorite response to "team woman" attempts is to play dumb and act like I have no idea that it's a common thing to bash men. So in this case she said "most men are" and I'd do my best impression of genuine and curious and say "you really think so?"
I find this gets amusing results.
PhantomDream09 11y ago
Yes, I'm a big fan of asking "what do you mean?" or otherwise encouraging someone to explain more thoroughly. Asking her to explain didn't really fit in this case because the very nature of checking out is meant to be brief.
I think your approach is a sound one, and a good way of learning more about the person you're conversing with while remaining polite.
scallopkid 11y ago
So often people really have no reason for the things they do and if you tell them they're doing it wrong they resist but if you ask a question that puts them on the spot then they can realize for themselves. I read a comment in this sub a while back that said that the best way to get someone to close off is to judge them while the best way to get them to open up is to offer reflection.
ACityGirl 11y ago
I really dislike being caught in the middle of Team Women moments. It makes me very uncomfortable. I can see your situation happening very clearly. It bugs me that such a thing is just considered normal. If people stepped back and thought a moment, wouldn't they be able to see, "Wait a minute, I'm insulting someone to their face"? In your case, "Wait a minute, I'm insulting a customer to their face."
I really appreciate how you handled this particular moment. I'll admit that I'm usually just a bit flabbergasted. Most of the time, I'm talking to people at work or something (a mixture of the genders), and a lady will say something with a negative connotation towards men. If I am able to respond, it's usually a, "I don't think that's what's happening" or something similar. Nothing that would actually turn anyone's mind.
I know some people on here get on you for being a bit wordy, Phantom, but I really like it because I can see your process so clearly that it leaves no room for misinterpretation. I often stumble through explaining things, and people rarely understand the point I'm trying to make.
Anyway, a nice way to come out of your shell for a bit at the store.
snickerdoodledelish 11y ago
Honestly, I'm not surprised that she went for a 'Team Woman' moment with you in this situation. Looking at it from her point of view, while I may not have said exactly what she did, I would have also sought to engage with you and have you involved in the conversation.
Personally, if I were serving a man and a woman who appeared to be in a relationship, and he said that - a 'jokey' comment that was said to me and that excluded/put the woman on the outer (in this case, literally 'I'm not listening to her, but I'm joking with you') I would absolutely seek to include and draw the woman into the conversation.
In this case, I would say her using a cliche to include you in the jokey-ness or to say, 'hey, we're both women' was probably more in response to what he said than anything else. I'm not saying it was the best option, but I don't think that she did anything particularly wrong; and honestly, she probably was just kidding.
PhantomDream09 11y ago
You're assuming that I hadn't spoken or engaged at all. I said "hello" to the cashier, asked how she was, then I went about talking to my SO about other things (like being able to make the two bags work). When he made the comment to the cashier, I laughed. At no point could she have thought "this woman is excluded." I can tell the difference between a joking tone and snark/sarcasm. This woman wasn't being 'friendly' - she was trying to make a jab. Furthermore, my SO made the comment in a humorous way, no one could have mistaken it as in any way insulting or dismissive towards me.
It does not matter at all that the cashier and I were both women. She could have just as easily smiled and handed over another bag without making any comment at all (especially if she was uncertain of how to respond). My SO joking about me to a third party is very different from a third party trying to harp on my SO to me. I worked as a cashier, and would have never directly, indirectly, or jokingly made such a comment.
She had to disregard my previous participation to the conversation, ignore the fact that I had been talking to him, and the fact that I laughed at his joke. This wasn't a "I need to make this woman part of the exchange" it was "I see an opening to put him down."
Edit: The fact that you're so ready to write-off the incident, and excuse the cashier's behavior ("oh, you must have misunderstood her intent" and "she was probably just joking") indicates (to me) that you probably think I have no social awareness and that I'm incapable of reading tone, intent, and evaluating context. My SO noticed her tone as well, and he commented that he was impressed I reacted so quickly to her jibe.
snickerdoodledelish 11y ago
I'm so sorry - you seem to have misunderstood what I meant by 'excluded' in this case! I don't mean that you were literally left out (although you did say in your OP that you are generally quiet and only say the basics) - I meant that in this case, the joke was one that put you on the outer. When your SO jokes about you to a third party in your presence, then that is a joke that makes a 'team' of the SO and the third party. The person who is the 'butt' of the joke (even a harmless one!) is on the 'outer' side of the joke, and that was what I was referring to here.
While I'm sure your relationship with your SO is exactly the way you want it, and you're both very happy and comfortable, unfortunately the phrase you quote would, to an outsider, appear to be dismissive of you. He contravenes something you just said, and makes a joke of it to a third party. That you didn't feel dismissed by this is great, and it's wonderful that you have that understanding within your relationship. However, for an outsider without that understanding, that comment would easily make them feel uncomfortable and like he was being dismissive of you, and making a joke with them at your expense.
There are other ways she could have handled it, yes. What I am saying is that, given the nature of the comment, it's not surprising that a general, everyday, off-the-street woman in a store would attempt to show solidarity to you, rather than making it appear that she was joining in a joke against you with your SO.
I do understand what you're saying. I just wanted to point out, that to most people, her comment was not harping on about your SO. You, with your knowledge base, and being so focused on the RPW of being, see it that way. However, to her, it wouldn't be seen as anything against him in particular. After all, he himself has just told her he's bad at listening. He made a joke, she made a joke - she just moved to include you in it. I'm struggling to see how she was seeking an opportunity to insult him, personally. Her comment was very generic.
I'm sorry you felt like I was devaluing your social awareness. I can see that this made you and your SO feel closer, and I think that's great. While I'm not calling your social awareness into question at all (I'm sure you have lots of it!) what I was attempting to do was offer some perspective. Your relationship is not necessarily typical, and neither is the way you see the world as a RPW, so it's easy to lose sight of the way that others DO see the world/relatonships.
I think it's easy as RPW readers and subscribers, and especially people like yourself who are very dedicated and long-term RPW, to start to see the things you know as obvious. Unfortunately, they really aren't obvious! In seeing it as her being offensive rather than ignorant, the way we react can be a little disproportionate and often not given with the grace that might be more helpful in a larger sense. When we lose perspective, we can become offended about, and see a battle in, things that are ultimately petty. When we maintain perspective, we see opportunities to ask people reflect, and can respond with grace to things that we see as wrong.
I'm certainly not criticising you for what you said! I know that saying something off the cuff is better than saying nothing, and it obviously impressed your SO and made him sense your solidarity with him, and that's wonderful.
You felt offended, and reacted with defense (as is appropriate to feeling offended.) If you had seen it a little differently, as ignorance/stupidity/inappropriate but not offensive, you may have been able to react from a different place. What you did was certainly not wrong and DEFINITELY not because you lack social awareness. But, when coming here and typing about it as a post, I do feel that it would be more helpful and more constructive to think about the ways in which, with some perspective, we could inform women that the joke they are making is inappropriate in general.
PhantomDream09 11y ago
(1 of 2)
First off, thanks for taking the time to respond!
I understand what you mean now, and I do see what you're saying. I am very quiet with other people I don't know, so engaging in conversational 'basics' with strangers feels like I am satisfactorily fulfilling my social obligations (if that makes sense) and meeting the expected 'quota' so to speak.
Interesting perspective. In my family, teasing, poking fun etc was always one of the main ways we showed affection. It just so happens that I am simultaneously horrible at teasing, and a very easy target for teasing. As a result, I equate this kind of behavior with feelings of fondness, love, and acceptance. My SO and I like to have fun, so his comment was both self-deprecating ("I'm bad at listening") and in line with teasing me by extension. The whole thing also happened very quickly (it'd be a stretch to say it was 15 seconds from the time he made the comment to the time we headed for the exit). In that kind of time frame, people don't analyze what they're doing, and it's more of a reflexive/gut reaction. If the cashier meant it as a light joke to once again 'include' me, then her tone was a stark mis-match.
I see what you're saying, and that's also why it's important to look for contextual clues that are at your disposal. If a couple goes to the register quietly and they hadn't been talking to each other, if they were physically distant from one another, if they said "hello" flatly without much energy, and generally didn't seem to be 'meshing' well - then I can perhaps understand how the joke Occam made could have been interpreted as dismissive. That said, we had been talking and laughing about something while waiting in line, he had his arm around my waist as I pushed the cart forward past the cashier. After he made the joke, I genuinely laughed, and as we packed the bags we chatted about one of the games we're working our way through together. Essentially, all the hallmarks of "happy, cohesive, couple" were present and accounted for. Any perception of being dismissed and/or slighted wasn't based on first hand evidence, but rather projection on the cashier's part.
It's an interesting idea, but I have a hard time believing that she would respond in a similar way if the genders were switched, and a woman said "I'm bad at listening etc" while the man laughed. I can't say for certain of course, I have only noticed that it's generally more acceptable to rib/tease male SO's in public more so than it is to do the same to female SO's. I've also never witnessed a relevant counter example (where a man and his gf/wife are at a store together and a male employee makes a joke at the females' expense). If a male employee made a well-meant joke about a woman to the woman's SO/H - the chances for actual negative response are more likely. Both the man and the woman would most likely take issue, possibly file a complaint - even if the comment was (in theory) 'harmless' and well-intentioned (ie the male simply tried to make a joke in a way that included the male after the woman makes a dismissive joke about her SO).
The intent of her remark was carried by her tone, overall expression (short, clipped etc) and body language (punctuated turn towards me, pause, head tilt etc). It is hard to accurately convey that via text, which is why I included the descriptors that I did ("harping" for example).
Again, it was in her tone and emphasis. I'm sure you've heard a sarcastic lilt that reverberates with exasperation and boarders the realm of condescending? Had her tone been light, friendly, and/or unassuming (an overall genuine remark simply meant to be amusing) then I wouldn't have said anything at all and simply moved along. I'm not even sure she was aware of how sharp her comment was in tone (because she was surprised by my comment of "he makes better decisions than I do").
Content can morph into a bevy of different meanings based on execution. An easy example to illustrate this point, have you ever heard a Southern Belle say "Well Bless your heart!" ? There are times where that expression can be used in a genuine fashion - but it's also used as a (sometimes not so) covert "eff you."
I think she was thoughtless, and while it caught my attention and I found it out of place and presumptuous - I did not treat her (or even let on) that I was in any way bothered. My tone was the same as it had been when I chirped "Hello" and how I had been conversing with Occam all along. There was no "ice fills the room" change to my words. The comment ("he makes better decisions than I do") was made with a smile on my lips, and was followed by yet another (my third or fourth by this point) laugh. I said "have a good day" with mirrored energy and inflection as we headed off.
I perceived no 'battle' - only a common misunderstanding of 'comradery' I see many women make when there's an opportunity to 'bond' over making a jab at a male with another female (even if that female is a total stranger).
I often engage people to find out their thoughts and driving motivations in situations like that (I've spoken at length with many female friends and acquaintances about things like this), but as I mentioned in another comment - the time restraints surrounding the exchange (checking out at a grocery store) do not allow for any kind of meaningful exploration. Which is another reason I opted for a non-confrontational observation ("he makes better decisions than I do") and pleasant farewell.
Edit: There are numerous spelling and grammatical errors in this comment, I intend to come back and iron out the bumps later on when I have more time.
PhantomDream09 11y ago
(2 of 2 - because I ran out of room on my first comment)
I have written posts and comments about how to deftly navigate and deal with friends and family when it comes to comments and conversations that center around bad-mouthing, making fun of, and putting down men. Again, this was a quick exchange, and simply something both my SO and I noticed. Where normally I would be silent, I was fast enough on my feet to reply kindly and in a manner the cashier did not expect. If it disrupted her sense of expectation - then that in and of itself was enough to at least make her pause, and perhaps in that pause she went on to reflect "why didn't that woman respond as I expected her to?" - again, there's no way of knowing for sure one way other the other. She may have written the whole thing off, which is fine as well. My day was not ruined nor was my mood negatively affected. It was a moment that stirred my awareness and allowed me to react decisively, which is an achievement and one I am very content with.
I have spoken (at length) about offering different perspectives, engaging other people, getting to the heart of their meaning, and also being aware of how we conduct ourselves (both within the context of a relationship, and to wider society).
Respect In Action
On The Lighter Side: Flirting and Playfulness
Some people like to make the argument that says "Well I'm dating/married to him, I have a right to talk about him" or they state how important it is to vent. Well, if it really is a huge issue, so major that your relationship is in danger - you should be talking directly to your SO about it, not friends or family. If you bad-mouth your SO up and down the street then that is going to affect the way people think about him. It will damage his reputation, and in turn - the legitimacy and respectability of your relationship.
The key is not to try and change his mind outright, but to encourage him to share and explain things to you. I find that it's far easier to guide someone after you let them talk about their situation as long as they feel the need to. That can range anywhere from three minutes to several hours. The key is to be patient, and show that you are listening. Go to your brother without any judgements, don't act like you know best or that you have already decided what is best for him.
I know I've said more about respect, reputations, preserving the integrity of a relationship, supporting friends, and dealing with social interactions - but various links I list above touch on the mentioned subjects in various ways enough to illustrate my point I believe.
In any event, I appreciate that you took the time to respond. Take care. :0)
redpillschool 11y ago
I run into team woman a lot in my day-to-day with late 40's female divorcees who believe themselves wise (I suppose it's their rationalization for why they chose to divorce).
It would always happen when I was with a woman, they'd try to co-opt her, bring her into the misery. I had one woman try to teach me a lesson on how I should treat women, in front of my date!
"You always have to buy her nice things, and do nice things for her. She doesn't need to put up with your bullshit. So you better get your ass into gear. She can get better so you better be glad for what you've got, it won't last long if you don't do everything right!"
She was trying to inflate the price of female SMV. I didn't much care for this, but for some reason, every 40+ woman thinks it's her place to condescend to me (I'm not much younger, mind you). I don't know if it was the drinks but I wasn't very nice to her after that.
"Wow, that's a lot of advice. Let me ask you, are you married?"
"Divorced, hun. I learned these things about men. I have a lot more experience than you two young'ins."
"Divorced! Well, I'm really sorry to hear that. How long ago was that?"
"Ten years!"
"Ten years! That's a long time ago... How has your love life been since? Have you found anybody new?"
"No, because my ex husband wasn't the only one- they're all immature idiots. I rather be alone!"
"You'd rather be alone? I don't think we should be taking your advice then!"
I can't stand women like this.
PhantomDream09 11y ago
The cashier looked to be around my age or a bit older, and should have (in theory) known better than to act so unprofessionally. Occasionally certain family members will attempt to get a conversation going where they 'remark' on the shortcomings of their SO's/H's. It drives me nutty and I always make a point to either get up and talk to other people, or change the topic.
Unsolicited, bitter advice from strange women...I hope you pointed out to your date that the woman's advice was perfect, if she wants to end up in the same situation when she's 40-something.
redpillschool 11y ago
I didn't need to, she was already well aware. When we were leaving she was like, "what kind of pussy ass bitch is she trying to date?"
PhantomDream09 11y ago
I'm glad she had the presence of mind to draw that conclusion herself!
redpillschool 11y ago
She was a plate at the time. And I think she sorta knew that I wouldn't behave that way. Though at the time she knew that those behaviors wouldn't be attractive, I think it sunk in after a while that I'd never behave that way. So she slowly detatched after that. As they typically do.
That was a few years ago. I'm actually attempting LTRs now, so, as you can guess, I always buy things for women, always bring flowers, I'm always doing nice things, and never being mean or anything!
heh
KlaiFrai 11y ago
I had a situation recently where <redacted>.
Jabroni12345 11y ago
Relating to "team woman", here's an abstract of a study about in-group bias.
[deleted] 11y ago
[deleted]
alcoholicLisaSimpson 11y ago
uhg that's awful. The cashier in the story probably just uses clichés to connect with strangers. Your SO doing it about you, and with people she knows is just really lame. Does she show appreciation for you in others ways?
PhantomDream09 11y ago
I'm really sorry she's so eager to minimize and disrespect you. That is not how a good woman behaves at all. I hope you are looking into turning things around with her, because I'm sure the constant bickering gives her a sense of self-righteousness and feeds her desire for drama. Please be sure to seek input from TRP and/or askTRP.
If this is an established pattern for her (and by extension, you) already - then it's going to be extremely difficult to implement positive changes. It doesn't sound as though she really respects you, and is instead more concerned about 'being above you' whenever there's an appropriate audience around that will support her bad habit.
May I ask why you tolerate such inconsiderate treatment? What makes her worthy of your commitment and time?
If you haven't already, please read /u/occamsusername's LTR series.
If you engage a woman on her level, then you are allowing her to define the frame within which you operate (this is essentially a death sentence for you). Next time she insults you, tell her that her behavior is unacceptable, and you have better things to do. Leave immediately (if you traveled to the destination together - leave her there, do not bring her with you). Do not contact her, do not respond to any phone calls and/or texts from her. She has to learn that undermining you is one of the fastest ways to destroy the relationship.
If someone mistreats you once - shame on them. If someone mistreats you twice, shame on you. Do not tolerate bad behavior, and if the only way to get her to stop means that you have to break-up with her, then so be it. If you do not respect yourself, then you can't expect anyone else to either.