I keep seeing guys advising men to not DEER in these subs. But that advice makes no sense and is a spergy over-application of the good advice to never DEER to your wife or gf.
If you take DEER avoidance to this extreme, conversation between men becomes impossible. We are men and explaining or defending is a critical aspect of our communication. Men make claims and defend them, or state a thesis then explain it. This is how logical conversation happens.
You don’t do it to your wife of gf because women are emotive. Trying to engage logically will always fail and leave you worse off. DEER is bad for relationships because it destroys the Captain analogy and treats her as co-captain. And because women can’t be effectively reasoned with; once you attempt to use reason she wins. Her mind will never be changed but yours can be. She will lose respect for you if she can cow you, so once you DEER to her you have created a conflict with no winable outcome. Hence DEER’s danger. (And yes, the actual source for DEERing says it’s when done to a woman.)
But take this post for example. I am writing to a group of men and explaining myself. Is this bad? Of course not. It’s the only way men talk. Let’s say you disagree or qualify this. We could call that rationalizing or defending. Is that bad? No! Because we are men and minds can be changed. Let’s say I respond to clarify or say we can agree to disagree. Also fine. Then you respond with something and the list goes on and on. It’s all fine because it’s man to man communication.
I see spergs here accusing guys trying to add context or add information as DEERing. It’s not. It’s how men communicate. We share facts.
It shuts down the conversation where any additional contribution to the discussion manages to “prove” your point that the person is DEERing. It’s a tautology and a bad argument. As a man, you should try to use good arguments because like Aristotle said, reason is what separates men from women.
I’ve seen such retarded conversations on this sub as P1: “you’re DEERing even on this sub.” P2: “no, I’m not I’m telling you why you’re wrong.” P1: “hurr durr. See, yer DEERing right now! Hahaha.” Those are possibly the most retarded, empty conversations here. It’s as bad as any of the spergs on TRP who just say “next” reflexively.
Tl;dr DEERing is bad when done to women because you attempt to use logic on someone who thinks emotionally. “DEERing” to men is just called a disagreement because we communicate rationally.
Bumpgoesthenight 6y ago
Why can't women think logically?
jcrpta 6y ago
It's about context.
Some discussions invariably have an emotional element - buying a new car, for instance. Buying a brand new luxury car is never going to be a particularly practical thing, and yet Mercedes, BMW and Jaguar are all still in business.
DEER is strategy built around arguments that are entirely driven by rationality. It doesn't work so well in a discussion with both emotional and rational elements because few people want to admit their position is driven by emotion. So when they are told their argument is nonsense - essentially what DEER'ing does - they move the goalposts, they get angry, they get upset... they do pretty much everything except admit they were mistaken.
Many discussions with your wife have a substantial emotional element. Possibly rather more than you'd assign yourself.
The "do not DEER" advice is based around the simple assumption that 9 times out of 10, you've likely misunderstood the level of emotional investment your wife has in the discussion and DEER'ing is more likely to upset her than it is to move the argument forward.
pacjax 6y ago
incorrect applications of DEER with other men gets you no respect and makes you look bitchmade.
one of my male co workers literally DEER's almost every fucking thing he does or says and absolutely nobody respects him in his life (I only know of his work life and female life) male or female.
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edit: for example, if we have a certain policy at work, its not enough that we have that policy, he explains why to *EVERY SINGLE PERSON* because he's insecure about enforcing the rules (my assumption)
jerrymcguiver 6y ago
Half the men here are still women. This post is half truth then.
lololasaurus 6y ago
I think DEERing can be done to make or female but it's never the logical process of solving a problem. It's generally not taking ownership of what we do while DEERing it at the same time. At least that's how I learned it.
hystericalbonding 6y ago
Read about JADE from AA. Then read When I Say No I Feel Guilty. I expect you'll want to delete your post after that.
You overestimate the average man and underestimate the average woman. That's fine if all you want is pickup and spinning plates, but it places limits on what you can achieve.
There are entire books about the myth of rationality.
RStonePT 6y ago
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[deleted] 6y ago
All covered in amniotic goo and making burbling sounds?
RStonePT 6y ago
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InoffensivePolak 6y ago
I can't access the FAQ in the sidebar, what's DEER?
BluepillProfessor 6y ago
Use Old Reddit to get to the sidebar.
hystericalbonding 6y ago
Read no more mr nice guy
Defend, explain, excuse, rationalize
or JADE from AA - Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain
weakandsensitive 6y ago
I literally wrote it out above, you useless fucking donkeyfucker.
Redpillbrigade17 6y ago
No. While you’re on to something it is not about rational/emotional.
DEER and in general explaining yourself is a submissive position. It is deferential to a higher authority. Whoever does the questioning (verbal, implied, or otherwise) sets the frame. Has the power in that moment. Whoever does the answering submits and plays a part henceforth in that other person’s frame.
So it’s not a man/ woman dynamic, it’s a submissive/ dominating one.
It has to do with the power dynamic in the relationship. Not the sex/ gender of the two people involved.
Good luck.
red-sfpplus 6y ago
This is what I hate about RP theory.
3-5 days a week I stand in front of clients and tell them why my solution is what they need.
There is massive amounts of DEERing required.
Just yesterday I spent 40 minutes at a large work conference getting my design shot to shit by my peers in a group learning session. Some points I defended, some I lost and modified my design.
If I wasn’t good at DEERing I wouldn’t have a $400/hr bill rate.
If DEERing from a position of power wasn’t possible, consultants in general would not exist.
rocknrollchuck 6y ago
The best way I can explain the difference is that DEER-ing is a reactionary explanation looking to justify YOUR actions to "the judge" (your wife), whereas explanations for business actions/decisions are a necessary component of a successful business process. In a personal relationship, YOU are being judged. In a business relationship, YOUR WORK is being evaluated and you need to support that with sufficient explanation.
Redpillbrigade17 6y ago
Hmmm not sure what work you’re doing but sounds like you need to flip the script. Up your sales game. You must be so confident that your solution is the right one that they they should be explaining to you why they’re not using / adopting it yet.
DJiamuzak 6y ago
I never thought about that. Objection handling = DEERing.
framelessglasses 6y ago
..and how's that working with your wife?
It may sound the same, but it's not.
bcvickers 6y ago
Wouldn't you agree though that presenting from a perspective of asking the questions puts you in a more powerful position because you can do ask and answer and control the conversation?
Also:
What sort of design work?
red-sfpplus 6y ago
Expensive.
RStonePT 6y ago
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red-sfpplus 6y ago
Yeah. Last time I was arrested it was all about the STFU.
Pays off with the wife and the law.
johneyapocalypse 6y ago
Lol.
Molson anyone?
RStonePT 6y ago
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red-sfpplus 6y ago
We learned as much from that as I learned from hearing the praise “I dont do anal”
Challenge accepted.
We all love out brother from the North. Its the ones from the South we dont want.
SorcererKing 6y ago
Speaking of spergy overapplication...
There are times to explain and debate, which implies and requires defense of one's position; doing that to your wife or to us is rarely one of them. Rationalization is rarely a good idea, since that is inventing reasons for what you believe.
We tells guys not to DEER mainly in OYS, because they are there to own their shit not tell us why they're already perfect. If they don't like what we tell them they should apply some STFU accordingly. We're not here to debate an OP on whether or not he's retarded; we call 'em like we see 'em. We certainly don't care about rationalizations.
EDIT: It's almost guaranteed you're going to get banned by WNS. You'll likely then DEER on the modmail.
weakandsensitive 6y ago
Correct. This is retarded and autistic. It should be interesting to the reader that this guy is the guy giving advice in askTRP. -- edit: actually, this is all you really need to know about OP
I have no idea why having a micro penis would preclude someone from DEERing.
No idea how any of that is gender exclusive.
[deleted] 6y ago
Why would I get banned for this? This isn’t a liberal arts college campus. Also, crying in mod mail is retarded because it’s an emotional investment from a point of weakness. That’s what I see as wrong with it. Not that you’re explaining, but that you’re begging.
RStonePT 6y ago
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screechhater 6y ago
I have a teenage boy at home that relates his life’s events at school and embellishes the truth enough, that I can see right through it.
As he is finding his boundaries growing into his body and wrapping his head around what he is taking in, I can call him out and force the DEER or just let it ride.
Most times I let it ride or later I ask him if he embellished the truth a bit to have a good story. I remind him life is full of experiences and as I relate mine, or his siblings relate theirs it’s not always important to add his own story, but to take in others experiences and just sit and think them over
What you don’t see or understand, is that as you see life through the “Red Lense” is that DEERing is habitual for the weak, non masculine dude that is trying to befriend and make “passionate love” to his LTR and not wanting to just fuck her lights out in a rage of testosterone. Owning his life and embracing the fact that a man is masculine and is very fundamentally different
DEERing is literally the communication of dealing with mommy correcting your actions and you didn’t marry or LTR mommy.
There is no communication or dialogue with DEERing. It’s placating. It’s pure weak in the knees making excuses bullshit of either not owning up to your life or actions
Very good conversations can be had with your spouse. Especially when you own your shit
framelessglasses 6y ago
That's getting to the core of it...
UnbreakableFrame 6y ago
The issue is this: men come here, presumably for help, then any time someone tries to point out where they went wrong they rationalize their fuck ups ad naseum. You don't walk into a class to have a debate with the teacher. You walk into a class to learn from the teacher.
ImNotSue 6y ago
Without disagreeing with your statement, teachers can be wrong. Truth is not wrong. Ideally a teacher is teaching the truth. It is not always the case.
That people come to mtrp and want to disbelieve everything they hear, and that bad advice regarding DARE/DEER is being given, are overlapping but independent issues. Both are valid.
UnbreakableFrame 6y ago
That's fair. You seem to clearly get the point I was going for, so I'll just leave it at that.
BluepillProfessor 6y ago
Name checks out.
UEMcGill 6y ago
You're missing the fundamental piece. I was probably the first person to tell someone not to DEER on this sub. It's so fundamental to being an integrated male, because not DEER'ing is about ownership
You fuck up at work you don't tell the boss, the printer jammed so I couldn't turn in my TPS reports. You own it. You take responsibility because it wasn't the printer job to get them to your boss. Personal ownership is probably the most important skill to take away from any of this shit.
If me and any other of the council of elders want to have a discussion amongst ourselves, and I start to make excuses, I'll get called out just like any first-time bitch would. Intergrated men will also being willing to step back and say, "Yeah, you're right. I need to own this..."
Theres a difference.
Hell can women even DEER? Fundamentally they default to not taking responsibility. That's why they call it the hamster wheel of rationalization.
hack3ge 6y ago
Most men on here are DEERing because of ego - once you can move past that you arrive at what you said which is that it’s all your fault and you need to own it.
I used to be terrified that it could really all be my fault and now I find it empowering because it means I alone can change things.
man_in_the_world 6y ago
It's DEERing when the main purpose is to defend your ego or seek validation, rather than to enlighten or elucidate.
IMHO, it's usually called correctly here.
bogeyd6 6y ago
Yet look on all the DEER'ing. Nice bait.
Orfeu_da_Conceicao 6y ago
I've been wondering about this as well, so I want to commend the OP for making this thread. I have always been an admirer of the scientific community and had an affinity for intellectual activity. Growing up in a society that promotes Reason & Science you would assume it is best to be able to have a solid philosophical foundation for anything you believe and a willingness to argue for them at any given moment. It is a huge paradigm shift to accept the red pill doctrine best summarized by Robert Greene. Think as you like but behave as the others.
Discounting the role of power dynamics leads to ignoring the necessity of DEER/DARE in conversation. Argumentation serves a function of conveying superiority/inferiority, therefore it is almost never useful to argue. Your interlocutor will either be defeated or be emboldened should they lose or win an argument with you. This new worldview of ignoring, avoiding and using DARE to combat arguments is one I have to accept and adjust to, but there is no doubt in my mind it DOES work to further our ends (being likable and influential to other men/being attractive and powerful to women). So I'm assuming the only useful time to use reason and logic is when you are investigating the truthfulness of something for yourself or you are certain the person you are dealing with is themselves a predominantly rational person (say someone in academia).
Persaeus 6y ago
reading that dried up my vagina so bad
weakandsensitive 6y ago
Take this intellectual jerkoff to DM.
RStonePT 6y ago
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weakandsensitive 6y ago
You make a great point. I'm re-approving for the masses to read.
[deleted] 6y ago
For man to man communication what is matters your emotional investment and honesty.
If you cry, get combative or rage over stupid shit you lose respect. If you can’t see the truth right in front of you, you lose respect.
Defend all you want but the second you get emotional or start lying to yourself you lose.
Edit: u/UEMcGill got it 100% and summed up what I mean about honesty: it’s about ownership and accountability.