Female sexual attraction is a complex thing, and subject to change on a whim.
Most normal, healthy heterosexual women have a long-ass laundry list of prerequisites nailed into their hind-brain that trigger attraction.
A bunch of boxes that she's not even fully aware of, let alone in control of, that you're gonna have to check off before she'll want to sleep with you.
Tall? Check.
Broad shoulders? Check.
Full head of hair? Check.
Cool friends? Check.
Witty quips? Check.
Cocky attitude? Check.
A big one that doesn't get talked about much: Willingness to approach in the first place.
Approaching out of the blue isn't just important because it gets the ball rolling with women logistically. It's important because the act itself is characteristically masculine, and therefore intensely attractive to all women. It may seem counterintuitive, but the more weird or awkward the circumstances of your approach, the more friends and family members are with her, the more guys who are nearby who may or may not be dating her, the better off you are approaching her.
Women like balls, because they don't have any themselves.
Men (and women for that matter) are programmed to fear rejection, and with good reason. There's no term for it that I'm aware of, but for men, getting rejected by women in the presence of a social group (and thus other women) provides the opposite effect of pre-selection. Call it prelimination, if you will. Repeated public rejection outs you as 'undesirable' to other women witnessing the interaction. Subconsciously, "they didn't want him, so why should I?" Believe me, if there are 15 women in a room, and 12 of them witness you getting shot down by the first 3-4 you approach, more often than not, your night is a fucking wrap. In reality, a simple venue change can fix that, but the fact remains: that incremental risk we face every time we approach a woman in public is amplified in our minds, and can be nerve-wracking and even downright debilitating to the uninitiated. Women respect a man who can stomach that risk.
This leads me to the friction between TRP members (who tend to focus on self-improvement and sustainable results) and the PUA community (which tends to focus on routines, gambits, lines, and the like to facilitate smooth interaction and conversation with women). Having dabbled in PUA tactics during the days of Neil Strauss, Mystery, etc., I can tell you that there is definitely some merit to that stuff. Obviously long-term, sustainable personal growth is preferable, but there's nothing wrong with a little canned bullshit to get the ball rolling in chatting up a woman. Usually the winning formula is some combination of the two.
The point is, the best way is whatever way works best.
If you're starting from square one (which you probably are), it doesn't really matter what approach you take. If you prefer grinding it out and starting organic conversations genuinely, walking up to a woman out of the blue with "Hi pretty girl, I'm Deon. How are you? Do you like movies? No? Okay, what about TV? No? Okay what about..." That's fine. As long as you do it. Conversely, if you prefer going with some canned, semi-cheesy routine that gets a girl's interest focused on you and gets things moving, that's fucking peaches, too. As long as you do it.
In reality, whatever strategy you end up picking is going to feel unnatural when you first implement it, because you're not a natural yet. Don't expect it to feel effortless; remember that part of the reason you're here is that you don't know what the fuck you're doing. Both sides of the PUA-TRP debate have their merits, but debate itself really misses the point. The debate is over the most effective way to avoid rejection, and most guys on TRP don't need to find ways to avoid rejection. They need to get rejected to learn that it doesn't hurt as bad as they think, and the only way to do that is to approach. Whether you're performing a framed routine, or trying to elbow-grease escalation through natural conversation, or something in between, the method you choose should be the one that puts your mind at ease, and results in you approaching most often.
Leonidas_79 5y ago
I didn’t read the post but I take the best of both and drop the stuff that’s a bit extreme/useless.
Being just TRP or just PUA is basically shooting yourself in the foot.
AlfredKinsey 5y ago
If you look into the history of trp, a lot of early users came from the seduction sub, which is a pua community. They are intertwined. Pick-up is a requisite tool in your sexual strategy toolbox. I like OPs notion that hardcore PUA: sarging, etc. can build you in the broader TRP-sense, i.e. confidence, frame, and power. Also, since pick-up is a numbers game, you are more likely to fuck more women if you practice it.
Recently, I've really been into wing-manning for my male friends, but I'm noticing that they girls I pull for them don't stick with them compared to girls they approach. I've also had a few plates tell me "I'm really glad you approached me."
You're the prize, give that girl a present! (It's a dick in a box.)
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SirKolbath 5y ago
There is no debate. PUA is about faking it. TRP is about making it.
I'd rather improve myself as a man than be a pretender just to get women. Plus, if women are your scoreboard, your life is already fucked.
jesper_lundqvist 5y ago
PUA stuff feels weird and awkward to the uninitiated because the way you act is at odds with who you are - and women are much more sensitive to your emotions than you are. The successful guys either act out a more exaggerated version of themselves or they're good actors. It's not something for the average guy to emulate because the whole conversation is a thinly-veiled way of saying, "How about some dick?" (to quote a comedian whose name eludes me). It's difficult for most people to keep up that level of subtext for any length of time without betraying their inner thirst, because let's face it, if you were able to get with women, you wouldn't be in this mess in the first place.
What's crucial about TRP is that it realigns who you are in such a way that your new actions are natural and unforced. That's the reason frame is emphasised so heavily - when you break frame, women detect divergence between your conscious and subconscious mind, which is why they feel there's something "off" about you, even if you don't notice it yourself. Delivering the right line can still betray you if internally you feel shaken by a shit-test, which is why pick-up lines so often fail. It's only keeping your inner self in harmony with your outer self that women feel they can trust you. That's precisely what self-improvement achieves and success with women is almost a by-product of it rather than its goal.
DeontologicalSanders 5y ago
I agree with everything you're saying, but at the same time, you can measurably improve your life by leaps and bounds implementing TRP principles and still make little to no head-way in actually approaching and gaming women.
Approaching women and winning their attraction is just as much about effectively advertising and showing off your value as a man as it is about building that value in the first place. For women, a man just being measurably and objectively great is not enough. If it were, every geek in silicon valley would be banging supermodels in rotation. You need to display the social tools and technique to flex that shit without looking like a douchebag. I'm not saying wear a fuzzy hat and more bracelets than Johnny Depp and hit on women 24/7. But negging, pressure flipping, learning to open group sets, etc. are powerful components of PUA. You don't need to change your whole damn person. Just treat it like a tool box; use whatever gets the job done (approaching) most easily.
And you're thinking of Chris Rock, btw.
AlfredKinsey 5y ago
This is an important takeaway on this whole discussion.
While improving yourself might increase your attractiveness, approaching more and applying solid seduction tactics will inevitably increase your options. You don't have to be cheesy or robotic to participate in PUA. My go-to pick up line is "Hey, what's your name?"
jesper_lundqvist 5y ago
Ah yes you're right, it was Chris Rock.
While being the best man you can be is not enough, I disagree that Silicon Valley geeks are demonstrative of why that's not enough. On the surface, their game with women is crap and most of them don't even know it, so it would seem that game/PUA stuff would help them. The problem is that these guys (who often end up looking up PUAs in the first place) focus on only one dimension of excellence (maybe two) to the neglect of the rest. If the standards you hold for your intelligence and career are out of sync with the standards you keep for your fitness, emotional discipline and recreational pursuits, then the imbalance will show, both internally and externally. As I said, women pick up on these things much more keenly than we do.
So yes; game is important because you can be an excellent all-rounder yet still end up without a sex life. If anything, it's not uncommon to end up with little contact with women you take the pussy off the pedestal and spend your spare time living for yourself rather than chasing women. But game can only provide consistent results once you have your own personal fundamentals in order. All those tricks you mentioned are mere window-dressing if they're used as tactics to make women want to sleep with you. Only good actors can deliver that convincingly. They only really become effective when they come as genuine responses from the inside.
AlfredKinsey 5y ago
Frame/emotional discipline are great aspects of TRP teachings.
I bet many guys on here have noticed that lifting, having fun (especially with friends), and getting laid regularly can help immensely with the emotional discipline.
_the_shape_ 5y ago
As far as I'm aware, PUA has taken notice of its earlier deficiencies and attempted to correct them by taking the man's actual life into account more instead of primarily, if not entirely focusing on parlor tricks, sleight of hand, verbal wizardry etc. like it did in the past, although I'm not sure I see a "debate" between the two as much as I see an overlap, perhaps even a stepping stone from one (PUA) to the other (TRP).
The two can definitely compliment one another - learn how to make interactions with women smooth, easy and natural (PUA), but give them something more than smoke and mirrors, a self-actualized man (enter TRP).
ArugulaGazebo 5y ago
I learned the PUAs call the compliment approach a "direct approach." That is all I've done so far, because it's less to think about. It may be attractive for a guy to a approach a women out of the blue and tell her she's cute, but don't think that it's the cheat code to life, it can seem predatory and rape-y. On my first ever approach the girl ran away from me. In general it is very surprising. PUA is not just routines and canned lines, it's understanding the psychology of interaction and leveraging it to attract females.
Shiva-Lingam 5y ago
if they run away you're doing something wrong:
ArugulaGazebo 5y ago
I've only had one girl run away, but it is common for others to get very uncomfortable. The girl that ran away I suspect was under 18, maybe 16 or 17 (god, I hope not 15). I'm 19, but look a little older. Younger girls, are not as used to male attention and may buy into the "every man is a rapist" feminist bs. Plus, a sober cold approach on the street is very unusual. I was direct, I asked a question, then said I actually stopped because I thought she was cute. Then, she had a look of horror and dread. I thought I was calm and tried to shake her hand and ask her name which she was awkward and hesitant about. I continued to ask her about her day, but she wouldn't really engage, but I tried to keep it going. Eventually, I asked if she wanted to hang out sometime, she said she was really busy, I said that's ok why don't you give me your number and we can work something out. I pulled out my phone... "so what's your number." I think she may have been afraid that I'd get mad if she gave me a verbal rejection, so she slowly grabbed her bag and started to leave. I realized this is a rejection, then I said to take care. I feel like I did a pretty good job overall with that one (I've done worse with better results), it is hard for me to keep a conversation going if the girl is creeped out and not engaging, then I sometimes get mad or nervous and derailed. Another thing is that the neighborhood I did that approach in is a bit run down with a lot of homeless pan handlers, so strangers are more creepy. Direct approaches are more likely to go this way, but what helps about the PUA stuff is that it is less abrupt. Direct is a good way to get started though, because it is quick and simple.
ThisTension 5y ago
Direct could be as simple as.. Hi.. I wanted to meet you. If that's a compliment is pretty pale or the compliment is implied.
Your SMV will dictate the outcome. Having the balls to do may raise your SMV a little but your body language and vocal tone during that time will be much more important.
Pick up is a good way to have something to say and a plan to approach. TRP will have more value for actually going on a date, sleeping with them, getting an LTR or plate.
There is definitely an overlap but think of PUA as high school and TRP the opportunity to get a PhD.
ArugulaGazebo 5y ago
Yeah, I honestly find the PUA stuff more useful for initially making connections with women and TRP as more of the next step.
AlfredKinsey 5y ago
It doesn't have to go that way now that both are well-developed communities, though. Newbies can go straight to TRP and get the content plus more.
Red90210 5y ago
Is there a pickup subreddit? I need some of that to balance
naIamgood 5y ago
How do you approach without giving off that desperation vibe. The act of approaching itself is a proof that you do not have any other options. High Smv men always have options.
DeontologicalSanders 5y ago
Your second sentence is not true at all. The act of approaching puts you at a simultaneous advantage and disadvantage with a woman. They more-or-less cancel each other out.
Yes, walking up to a woman and striking up a conversation out of nowhere makes it glaringly obvious that you're interested; you are laying your shit on the line to some degree. It's the reason why you can't lash out and call a woman a bitch or a cunt if she shoots you down harshly. Everyone knows, including you, that you were interested and invested in the interaction, and now you're just sadz that it didn't pan out. There is an inherent vulnerability to picking up a rock and chucking it across the vast pond of loneliness, upon the shores of which we all live, and trying to hit someone on the other side. It's unavoidable.
At the same time, I don't think most men fully grasp how unexpected and intimidating it is for most women to be approached by a random guy, especially outside of a setting where it's socially expected. Women are extremely adept at hiding their true reactions when the situation calls for it; fantastic poker faces, they have. On the exterior, she is cool and collected, like it happens all the time. But for most women who aren't 9s or 10s, the fact is, it just doesn't. In most cases, her mind is instantly a wild cavalcade of racing thoughts, doubts, and insecuties. "Oh, hey, whoa...who is this guy, he's talking to me, what is he saying? Did he really just walk up to me out of nowhere, unprompted, and start talking? Who does that kind of thing? Does he think Im cute? Maybe he just does this with everyone..." You get the idea.
The point is, her frame is shaken at the least, and shattered at the most. You're putting yourself in a position of vulnerability, but you're also engaging in archetypically masculine behavior that most women are incapable of. It's like a giant spike on a seismograph, upward and downward. Instantaneously vulnerable, and yet confident at the same time.
BOOM, BOOM, and then back to zero.
Your level of success in the interaction is measured by your ability to remain cool, confident, and unaffected by that turbulence.
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AlfredKinsey 5y ago
Huh...I've never considered that some of the more popular/visible PUAs are at the top--in terms of earnings and fame--because they are simply more entertaining.
Gearski 5y ago
I think TRP is the clear choice though, TRP is raising your value, PUA is learning how to lower a girls perception of her own value(and raise her perception of yours). One is clearly more time worthy.
LiveAFTSOV 5y ago
Pick Up Artistry puts women on a pedestal as the subjects life becomes entirely centered around picking up women, and fucking women.
Red pill on the other hand is a toolbox used to achieve intersexual goals and by no means advocates placing women on a pedestal where they are a man's main goal or objective.
Finally PUA is centered around gimmicks, farces, and canned-line tactics where Red Pill is a lifestyle adaptation to create a long term strategy to achieve the desired goals using the tools provided by the red pill.
AlfredKinsey 5y ago
PUA concepts are much broader than you are giving them credit for. They are extremely useful and literally constitute some of the foundational and sidebar material in TRP. You don't have to make it your focus to get good at it. Think of it like any other hobby.
There are bullshit gimmickers and bad advice in both PUA and TRP communities, but that doesn't invalidate either.
JamesSkepp 5y ago
I'll take average PUA over an average TRP reader.
Dedication and discipline to game will always bring better results than just winging it with general TRP rules.
AlfredKinsey 5y ago
There is also the problem of TRP's popularity and the resultant abuse/co-opting of the term.
I had a guy the other day ask me quietly if I was "Red-Pilled," like we were in a secret fraternity or something.
He then told me that the Ultimate Red Pill Truth is that Christianity is the best religion. I lol'd hard, but he was srs.
I don't think I would ever here a PUA guy say that the teachings of Jesus are at the heart of game. Then again, you never know with people.
LiveAFTSOV 5y ago
Take what? Take as your wing man, because your RP and would use the PUA to make you look better? As your friend? Lol youd rather have a PUA friend over a RP friend?
You are clearly not speaking from experience, because I'm in plenty of PUA circles, Jmulv to name one, and the "average" (Whatever the fuck that means, maybe median/baseline?) PUA is the equivalent to the "average" TRPer. They read, and read, and read, feel good, then jack off. Using only online dating apps rather than cold/warm approach in person to contact women.
And dedication and discipline period will bring better results than just D&D to game.
Which is exactly what TRP has to offer.
As a toolbox, TRP has many "rules" to implement (they aren't really rules cus youre supposed to use the right tool for the job rather than use a hammer for everything like PUA) and "Game" is one of those tools.
For a PUA he is specialize solely with one tool, solely with game.
So yeah, Id rather have a guy who's good at everything than a guy who is an expert in one thing and useless for the rest.
JamesSkepp 5y ago
Random average PUA > random average TRPer in the pulling department.
LiveAFTSOV 5y ago
Have fun hanging with this average PUA trying to pull
DeontologicalSanders 5y ago
You're a smart cat, but in trying to categorize PUA and TRP in such a black-and-white manner, you're kinda talking out of both sides of your mouth.
How can any movement/technique that proposes using tricks, gambits, and behavioral patterns to give a man leverage in getting what he wants from women be considered pedestalization? If anything, it exposes women for how simple and easy to fool they are (if you assume it can be effective).
At the same time, Red Pill advocates for a lot of really good things: internalizing one's locus of control, using stoicism and frame to manage interactions, being shrewd with one's time and resources. It's a recipe for success. But to purport that everything we as men do is not ultimately aimed at maximizing our sexual attractiveness is just inter-gender salesmanship at best, and lying to yourself at worst. "The Red Pill: Discussion of sexual strategy in a culture increasingly lacking a positive identity for men." It's in the title for fucks sake lol.
Pedestalizing one woman is bad and self-destructive, no doubt, but make no mistake: as men, female attention as a general goal is firmly on a pedestal for us. Our operative condition is a sexual scarcity that we have to fight our way out of, whether that occurs at age 15, or at 35.
LiveAFTSOV 5y ago
PUA pedestalizes women because PUAs use game to achieve their lives goal : to bang as many women as possible.
PUA = making having sex with women your main lives goal. Everything else can go to hell, so long as you get laid. This is why there are skinny fat, ugly idiot PUAs, their life mission is getting laid. That's it
Red Pill = sex comes organically through success.
Game is one part of TRP.
For PUAs, game is everything.
You can be a Red Pilled man with PUA skills.
You can't be a PUA with a Red Pill mentality
I agree 100% everything is about sex.
It's from getting sex we remember that sex isn't everything.
Marlowz hierarchy
billiam632 5y ago
Ok but let's not get confused here. A PUA is not the same as someone who practices pick up or learns the game. I learned about a ton of redpilled ideologies through my research in pick up. It was only later that I discovered this subreddit but it was too late. I've gained nothing from this sub but additional motivation to continue improving my life. It's all confirmation bias. I believe the majority of lurkers on this sub are the same. They started in PU and came here to learn more.
Bear-With-Bit 5y ago
Hell, for a lot of guys into PUA it's not even that bold. Getting a LTR thru PUA is their real goal, because they haven't had much sex/affection. This could be a crude summary of Neil Strauss.
nofapZero 5y ago
The hilarious thing is; the girl who fell for their PUA tactics is a pretty shitty LTR girl to begin with. If you just want to bang thats great but if you're looking for truly wife/ltr material -- do you really want that girl who fell for your "can I get your opinion?" fucking line?
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LiveAFTSOV 5y ago
Ha. Many Terpers try to do the same thing.
It's possible if done right.
By the majority, it's "idiots trying to achieve blue pilled goals through red pill means."
Also side note, "Neil Strauss" has been dubbed "blue pilled" by Rollo.
After watching his interviews, I cant help but agree.
AlfredKinsey 5y ago
Of course it's possible, it's just not advisable.
[deleted] 5y ago
Ive seen Terpers being used a lot lately. Brutally hilarious.
[deleted] 5y ago
It's not a choice, dude. Not everybody is born with good genes.
LiveAFTSOV 5y ago
What's your point?
Not every day is sunny. So what?
Doesn't change our sexual behaviors.
[deleted] 5y ago
U said ugly idiot like he didn't give a fuck if he improves his looks or not. It's being called lazy, if u were ugly, but had to just shave, get a haircut, put on some acutane and lose weight. Ugly is if u do all those things and still look ugly. Otherwise u were lazy
InscrutablePUA 5y ago
This is totally wrong. For some guys, sex will come naturally, but the vast majority have to approach and have game to get laid.
LiveAFTSOV 5y ago
First of all, your name is PUA, so it's obvious you have a bias.
Maybe you're a new generation of PUA/Red Pill, which is fine.
Red pillers can have PUA skills.
PUA's cannot have a red pill mentality.
This is in response to me saying "sex comes from success," which is true. For the majority of men, they meet their fuck buddies or girlfriends or FWBs or ONS's from social circle meetings, meetups, or warm social circle approaches.
When I say "naturally," I mean, by nature of meeting women through day to day hobbies, life, and activities.
Of course you still have to "approach," (which means walk up and say hi during a mutual social activity in school or w/e) and talk to them and feel the vibe to invite them out.
This is called "warm approach" because they have a loose bind such as "school" which gives them an excuse to talk to each other.
PUA's do, Endorse, and fantasize about Cold approach.
Cold approaching is done by a minority of men.
I have 3 personal contacts in the PUA world, MV, PCM and TRSPDT (if you don't know them you weren't meant to,)
And if you dont know them, I am around John Mulveni, (Jmulv) and his entorage, their whole goal is getting laid on cold approach.
each of them would tell you that the percentage of men doing cold approach is 5 to 100. 5 Percent of men at most!
In fact, TRSPDT has personally said to me over the phone that he has a personal grievence with the PUA world for their infatuation with cold approach.
Game is naturally done in warm social circles where women are receptive like colleges, parks, or otherwise.
Cold approach is the past. Warm approach is the future.
Cutch22 5y ago
I know people in PUA community and they advocate the exact opposite, saying you should cold approach. I am not saying you're wrong, but curious where you are coming from. If no other men are cold approaching women, then why is that inherently a bad thing to do? It certainly takes balls to approach a woman on the street you've never met and tell her she looks nice or whatever, and then try to work your magic. I swear the #MeToo movement has only made women desire a real man, even more than they did before.
Flintblood 5y ago
Why is cold approach the past? Is it because social apps like Tinder have replaced the need to make new cold approaches? Even 10-11 years ago when Mystery had his The Pickup Artist Show, there were almost no popular hookup apps. Much less in the way of MeToo. I’d guess the dating strategy culture has changed a lot since then.
I admit that cold approach seems very challenging and even moreso in the MeToo era. I would rather go with a warm approach, which is why I may do what looks like orbiting - I like to think I float in to her orbit and exert some gravity.
LiveAFTSOV 5y ago
Cold approach is the past precisely because of the reasons you listed, and then some.
Plus, I don't know why any idiot would make getting laid "harder" over "smarter."
Why make urself ugly when u can be handsome?
Why cold approach when u can warm approach?
Auvergnat 5y ago
Enough fake news about PUA!
It is just so sad to read on TRP in 2018 things like "Finally PUA is centered around gimmicks, farces, and canned-line tactics..." when pick-up gurus back in the early 2000's were already mocking newbies wanting "pick-up lines" and would be trying hard to convince them it's about your SMV and attitude and frame, and that you should become a man with a passion, etc. Read a bit of "Double your dating", the work of David DeAngelo, one of the very first PUAs. It' basically redpill before redpill. The guys insisted like crazy about self-improvement, about being a high value man, about increasing your masculinity, about following your Mission and not women. Read about Roosh refusing to give pick up lines and talking about "the vibe" instead.
PUA is NOT "fuzzy hats, nail polish, insulting women and shitty canned lines". This is what people who have NOT read PUA material believe. You are doing yourself a disservice by not reading the mystery method and other classic game material.
And for fuck's sake, wanting to fuck women is NOT "putting women on a pedestal".
Putting women on a pedestal means holding them in high regard. This is the default "women are wonderful" attitude of the mainstream, blue-pill, game-unaware, white knight. This is unrelated to the natural desire of getting your dick wet! You can (and should) want to fuck without necessarily holding women in high regard. This completely illogical idea that somehow "men wanting sex" means they are clueless women-worshipers come from guys who are so bitter about not being able to get the sex they desire (since it's their innate strategy as males) that they end up rationalizing why they "should" not want it in the first place so they can feel better about themselves. Don't parrot the mindset of those losers.
Wanting to fuck women is part of the male nature. Wanting to fuck lots of women IS male's sexual strategy. You seem to hold Rollo in high regard, so please re-read his posts on defining male sexual strategy as "unlimited access to unlimited sex". As a male, it is absolutely normal that you want to fuck women, heaps of them. Own your nature. And for fuck's sake, don't shame men who are driven to effect their innate sexual strategy by all (legal) means possible, especially if it means getting over silly TRP comments that mischaracterize what PUA material is about and getting to the source of Game to find actionnable content that is NOT buying a fuzzy hat and learning a "farce".
InscrutablePUA 5y ago
Excellent write up - it's ridiculous how many 18 yo who've never approached a woman in their life nevertheless have paragraphs to write about how bad PUA is. I view PUA as a skill, one that can easily exist within the broader TRP worldview.
LiveAFTSOV 5y ago
PUA is not bad.
Red pillers can have PUA skills.
PUA's do not have a red pill mentality.
billiam632 5y ago
Came here to say all of this. Thank you. PUA discussions gave birth to the redpill ideologies. It was the PUAs that had sex with hundreds of women, many of whom were married or in relationships, that first began to see them differently.
AlfredKinsey 5y ago
PUAs as the data guys.... Makes sense to me.... Nerdy mother fuckers....
Thotwrecker 5y ago
Yes, people act like everything discussed here in TRP wasn't around on various pua forums back in the day. TRP is a repackaging of concepts - we say beta, they said afc. We say Chad, they said natural. Etc.
The reason PUA was probably the greatest breakthrough in the mens movement is because it did the impossible, which is prove that in the height of the materialistic 00s, a nerdy beta male could learn to sleep with hot women. Period, no if ands or buts, it is possible. Even today, if you load up a fucking David DeAngelo tape like it's 2001 and you just literally do what he says, you will grow and get pussy.
Personal growth doesn't come from TRP theory. Personal growth comes from successes and failures in the real world - you grow as a person when you deal with a HB9s shit in a LA club, and you react and respond to challenging shit tests and logistics. You don't grow at all when you argue with other nerds on the internet about whether looks > game or game > looks.
PUA was based on a flawed concept - the idea that looks / money / status doesn't matter, and game reigned supreme. If your game was tight, you could get her, and if you couldn't get her, you could get the next one. This is not "true" but it is a mindset that liberated an entire generation of men from feeling obligated to show off their stupid fucking rolex and brag about their job, or sit at home feeling sorry for themselves because of their appearance.
PUA is a part of TRP - if you can't pick up a girl, if you cannot talk to a girl in public and get her attracted to you, get her number at least, fuck her later WITHOUT dating her long term, then I have zero respect for anything you have to say about women.
LiveAFTSOV 5y ago
I agree.
You can be Red Pilled and have a PUA skillset.
But you can't be a PUA with a red pill mentality.
Neil strauss, just to name 1 quick example.
All Romans are Italian, not all Italians are Roman.
LiveAFTSOV 5y ago
It doesn't matter what the pickup gurus of last generation were doing, when we are living in the generation of now, where pickup Artists such John Mulevini (Jmulv), or Alex Vilenshenko (From Playing With Fire [google that]) Or (Sonny Avardo, from "of Tyrants and Tellers) are all oddvocating to people to *FOLLOW THEIR SCRIPTS and FOLLOW THEIR PROGRAMS to get success.
Modern Day Pick-up artists advertise for their followers to OBEY THEIR SCRIPTS FOR SUCCESS
CLEARLY The new generation of PUA's dont give a fuck about the likes of Roosh, Heartiste, Pook and Mystery.
And if you wanna disagree and say that ANY of the Modern PUAs, let's say, those who going to be presenting themselves in front of the SoPot Summit (essentially the "21Con" of PUA.) are somehow different than RSD (real social dynamics) be my guest.
Practically every modern PUA stole from RSD anyways.
I'm reading Bang By Roosh V. It's an enlightening script.
I agree with this. It's rather canned lifestyles. It's all material that any man SHOULD follow, for success. "Do this in this situation."
But shit, even Red Pill is that too, to some extent.
But PUA is ALWAYS that. "Adhere to the script."
I say that based off what I've read from modern PUAs and from Roosh's bang.
Yeah, obviously I agree with that, otherwise I wouldn't have the points.
What I'm saying is that PUA's main focus in life is fucking. They disregard lifting, eating, even their own personal missions/lives, for getting laid.
Their entire life is centered around getting laid.
This isn't "i'm gonna work on myself, have awesome hobbies where I can meet women, and let plates form naturally"
This is "I will go out of my way to approach approach, approach... so I can have sex with as many girls as I can, then I will center my entire life AROUND that goal, of having as much sex as I can."
We could say PUA's are closer to natural man, just wanting to get laid and letting every other goal slip by them in order to get fucked, then calling Red Pillers the next evolution of man, because we recognize Fucking is vital, and important, especially fun, but ultimately not what matters most in life.
Ehh, I agree somewhat.
What you're saying is true, but in a Broader sense, putting women on a pedestal means putting women in a higher regard than men, or than other males as a whole, by sole virtue that they are women, which is what I originally meant.
I agree with you man. I love sex, so does every other normal man.
that they end up rationalizing why they "should" not want it in the first place so they can feel better about themselves.
Bitter virgins and the like are the ones who say that shit and try to demunize sex. I agree. This is what forms incels, "No fappers," or MGTOWS like TFM(turd flinging monkeY), who fall in love with their sexrobots, and treat them like real people.
Trust me, I only do that ironically, or in order to prove a point such as this one.
I agree.
It's true.
But there are, so far, 2 approaches to that strategy. You can approach a strategy from different angles.
PUA Angle = We will approach, game, and fuck as many women as we can, no matter the outcome or reason.
Red Pill = We will give ourselves knowledge and awareness of the market place, and improve ourselves to the point of sexual irresistibility. From there, we will have the sexual life we desire, either long terms short terms, plates or ONS, using the Red pill tools we find here.
Like I said, I agree with ya man.
Like I said, PUA is all about game, while game is merely a portion of TRP.
PUA's get laid no matter the cost. TRP's employ trp, than get laid by default.
AlfredKinsey 5y ago
This is more well-developed critique.
To any guys getting into PUA: learn for yourself. Utilize the wide, democratic nature of the Internet to find and synthesize quality materials.
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LiveAFTSOV 5y ago
I've already named several prominent Pua that I'm referring to and they're all going to the sopot convention
Bear-With-Bit 5y ago
Invaluable summary.
We don't work on our game. We work on ourselves, then everything (and everyone) falls in line.
[deleted] 5y ago
False, how will u seduct a woman if u don't know game/seduction? U won't. Believe it or not, for majority if males pussy doesn't come automatically after self-improvment.
[deleted] 5y ago
Sure brah, what if your hobbies are predominantely male? Then u need to hit, dating apps, clubs, bars, trough social circle or cold approach. Nobody falls from the sky.
LiveAFTSOV 5y ago
What is social Circle?
You know a guy, who knows another guy, who is friends with girls?
Then one day you all go out together?
Or you happen to know alot of people because of your hobby?
Yeah bro predominately male as in what? Every single hobby I can think of has been penetrated by women seeking attention.
Even being a fucking magic the gathering player has groupies.
Women are all around for the most part.
Either way, yes nothing falls out of the sky, but by working on yourself you will naturally be outside more and will opt for the Red Pill warm approach, where you have a reason or excuse to speak with a woman, giving her plausible deniability "oh we're just talking cus we are loosely bonded by being in the same classroom"
PUAs use the sperge cold approach which is completely unnatrual.
It's natural to pick up women from social circles or warm approach mating grounds like college campuses rather than randomly. Humans are tribal creatures.
Finally, being a clubber, or a bar fly, that's both having a hobby. That's part of your life. You go to the bar / club enjoy it and women meet you cus they show up there.
That's exactly what I'm talking about. You dont have to be a PUA to go to a club or a bar.
Throwaway-242424 5y ago
A lot of male-dominated hobbies have women in them, even if they're just there because it's easy-mode for attracting orbiters (look at the gamer girl trope). Be a high-value male and you're on top of the pile.
[deleted] 5y ago
Yeah this. It didn't happend to me. Either they don't have girl friends or they never want to come, have bfs or are interested in other hot friends of mine. Sorry to break it to ya, but in my country guys aren't lazy fat unattractive slobs so like dressing better and hitting a gym makes me by default more attractive.
I can hang out with loser guys, but they don't have any access to girls so there is that.
Barbering is my thing. Football (soccer), shooting too (tomboy girl every now and then). Other than that i don't have any real passions beside gym, running or going in the woods to chill by myself. I could go to yoga class, language classes etc. but it would be just for the sake of pussy, which a lot of RPillers are advising against. So i'm kinda fucked, besides my looks aren't doing me any favor, so dating apps go out of the window.
Believe it or not, not everybody has bad competition and i either hunt HB4-5 or be pretty much a virgin/escort enthusiast.
When u have to put so much work into getting some pussy from lower end of average girls u just say fuck it and stop obsessing about it, u earn some money and buy yourself prostitute every now and then so u don't forget what having sex feels like.
Not a fan of those, besides i don't really like alcohol.
billiam632 5y ago
Ok but even Neil Straus said back in the day that pick up lines and canned openers were for beginners only. They were a tool to help one improve and should be abandoned quickly because they can stifle progress. Advanced pickup is strictly no lines. It's all about emotional spiking and frame management. It's about dealing with shit tests and using negs. Body language, story telling, cold approach, kino escalation and plenty more. Anyone following TRP who doesn't at least attempt to familiarize themselves with these principles is just not reaching their full potential.
With game you can get laid without improving your life. With TRP you can have a great life and subsequently become more attractive. With both you can live the most baller life you can dream of.
LiveAFTSOV 5y ago
Everything from your first paragraph points to game.
Literally all fall under game.
I agree. There is no denying this.
Yep I still agree.
Why are you arguing with me? We both think the same thing.
The only difference is that game is a part of the red pill, where as for PUA game is everything.
You can be a red piller with game and pua skills, you cant be a PUA with red pill mentality.
billiam632 5y ago
What I'm (poorly) trying to say is that it's not all about canned and scripted material. It's more about the concepts underlying the material. The material and the lines are just tools to practice the game and help understanding it so it becomes second nature.
I have rarely run across the "Follow my script for success" PUAs but that's probably because I've stayed away from them. The older PUAs did rely on scripts but they always explained their scripts and why they worked. The modern PUAs either rely on scripts and get poor results or completely disregard scripts because their students rely too heavily on them.
LiveAFTSOV 5y ago
The reason why PUA exists is because lazy faggots wanted that canned material.
"Bang" by Roosh V has plenty of explanation (which is poorly written mind you) explanations about innner and outer frame, etc, then the rest of the book is breaking down game on a beginning middle end game basis, like a football strategy book a coach uses.
The player is meant to memerize that playbook. Like a sales men.
Red pillers realize Game isnt everything, and that canned lines arent everything.
The majority of PUA's speaking at this years SoPot are "Follow My Script" kind of marketers, similar to RSD and their "Buy my blue print" types.
And quite frankly, I find people from the PUA crowd to be bitchey, gossipy, behave like women, and down right incel. Sonny Arvardo seriously believes only looks matter.
WTF kind of PUA is that?!
GTFO if you're gonna stand up for those "go back on their word every 2 seconds" bitches. They just go with the latest fads.
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LiveAFTSOV 5y ago
The whole reason that the red pill was started is because it's vastly different from Pua.
Did you not read the founding post which is currently in announcement?
billiam632 5y ago
Oh don't get me wrong. The majority of PUAs literally give themselves those titles as a way to get rich quick. The fundamental principles of game are still around if you can find them. Shitty PUAs represent the current state of the pick up community but in no way represents the effectiveness of game as an ideology. RSD had a period of quality free content but that all went out the window when they ran out of ways to teach game so now all they took about is meditation, business tactics and drinking kale juice.
You're right though. Majority of PUA are nothing more than insecure children who obsess over chasing women. The majority of their audience are incels and fools looking for a quick fix. The industry is flooded with this but it has been for decades. That's what happens when you make the promise of sex with beautiful women.
Dartleather 5y ago
Where can I learn game. And don't say the seduction subreddit.
AlfredKinsey 5y ago
You can learn it here on the trp subreddit. Don't rely on posts and comments alone, study the sidebar materials.
EramSumEro 5y ago
Look up Real Social Dynamics on youtube. As the channel has grown more popular, their thumbnails and titles have become more clickbaity but there is some wisdom to what Tyler says and does. Check out their hot seat at home series too.
edit: after doing some more research it appears that RSD is somewhat controversial within the PUA scene, as some people online claim that they are full of shit, fake their footage, and are running a scam. Use your head I guess.
[deleted] 5y ago
The two aren’t exclusive. “Game” (pick up) is just one area you develop through TRP.
[deleted] 5y ago
bingo. learn game, lift, and fix your ugly-ass face
what's so hard here
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Bear-With-Bit 5y ago
Exactly. When you're striving for excellence and not labels nor tribes, you'll find out it's all connected.
[deleted] 5y ago
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ExaltedR3V3NG3 5y ago
Yes. It's an effective way (if not the best) to improve social anxiety.
artificialfather 5y ago
As many have pointed out in other places (and maybe already did on this post, but didn’t read all the comments) TRP is a Super Set of PUA. Game is just one skill or power up the main character of the game of Life should have. You. If you want to start with some skill, always go for the strength. Then do some side quests and it doesn’t matter if you pick hobby, main plot (mission) or seduction (pua), as long as you keep making progress on the game of life as you play.
Just for the sake of argument, yes I was addicted to video games years ago; no, I actually don’t play anymore, not even moderately, I already played a life time of video games and I was lucky to find TRP being 22.
Cheers gentlemen.
gbdoragnic 5y ago
PUA is social skills for nerds, TRP is life skills for losers, I don't need TRP to not play video games or to work out, I'm a adult, I have my own mind, using TRP for self improvement is saying I'm such a loser I need to be told to do basic adulting
TheRedPike 5y ago
Then why are you here?
That is such a dispicable word. I hear it most from middle aged women as an excuse for why they are only now trying to act with some measure of responsibility on their own accord.
gbdoragnic 5y ago
> Then why are you here?
Because I like the community, I was responding to criticism of PUA, Not TRP, he is using TRP to stop playing video games, when feminism, society, PUA , some conspiracy didn't lead to him playing video games.
As someone who read the side bar, Michael's story is the only story, a guy who has his life together but still can't get women, I assume this is what TRP is about, because it's on the side bar. But yet we get guys who can't do basic adulting and want to trash talk other forms of knowledge
However it is working backwards, video games are a fine hobby, with a lot of money in it, MMA has no money, I made more money from video games and more friends than I ever did MMA, it's like we must step out of one box into another box.
The bad guys are PUA and the good guys are TRP, this is virtual signalling, but ain't no girls around.
How many times have you read, "I was masturbating all day, no hobbies, fat,lazy, than I read TRP and now my life is on track"
I'm simply telling these guys, don't shit on PUA because you know nothing about it, and how much it has helped men.
TheRedPike 5y ago
If this is how you started the thread, I would have pointed you.
Look, not trying to be a dick, but you really do have a point, yet you didn't form it well the first time. Take the time. Do this ^ instead. Not just here, but everywhere. That's when shit gets good.
Still stand by "adulting."
gbdoragnic 5y ago
Thank you, your criticism is spot on, I will take it to heart
artificialfather 5y ago
Me and many people here needed it. In TRP we care about results, so if you got those results by pure induction, congratulations. Some of us got saved and showed the hard truth, and we started to workout and some stopped playing video games in an unhealthy manner.
It doesn’t matter how you get basic adulting as long as you do it.
Celicni 5y ago
Yay, good for you, you understood shit on your own. Most of people that come here are fucking virgin autists that want to get pussy. If TRP works, why the fuck would they not follow it?
Why are you here if not to learn?
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U-94 5y ago
My approach is based on analyzing likelihood of a ONS. Not looking for a date.
AlfredKinsey 5y ago
Not dissing your approach, simply curious about your personal experience:
Have you ever had better sex with a woman (or women) once you've fucked her/them many times? If so, do you value that experience at all? Is it just a matter of not wanting the extra shit that comes with repeated sexual partnerings?
U-94 5y ago
Yeah with women I was friends with, who I knew for years and actually liked. But it takes years for that to happen. I'm interested in some stranger other than a one nighter. I have a lot of female friends over years working in bars and other odd jobs, in multiple cities. Maybe a one night stand in my 20s actually becomes something else in my 30s. It's very open ended. But when meeting someone new it's how fast I can open, close, move on. Literally zero interest after that.
exit_sandman 5y ago
Why should they contradict each other in the first place?
Sure, PUA has certain toxic tenets a full-blown redpiller would (and should!) disagree with, tenets which are cool to get over your approach anxiety and may help you bottle up your resentment (stuff like "looks don't matter and game is all you need, sluts are awesome and you're just insecure if you look down on them, women want sex to the same extent men do and you just have to get them there"), but when you get over these, the prescriptive part of PUArtistry is well-suited to be incorporated into your array of tools.
[deleted] 5y ago
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wayneinthegame 5y ago
Start with "The Game" by Neil Strauss. Duh. :)
gbdoragnic 5y ago
Your post is so spot on, PUA is just social skills for nerds, TRP is becoming life skills for losers , who needs to be told to improve themselves, go to the gym, and proper grooming if you need to be taught these things than you're a child.
DeontologicalSanders 5y ago
That's dismissive and derisive, and maybe worse, it doesn't add anything to the conversation.
The whole feminine imperative thing may seem like a conspiracy theory on the surface, but you'd be naive to write it off altogether.
The world we live in is becoming increasingly feminized. It's not just that men aren't taught the right ways to interact with the opposite sex. Many men are actively taught the wrong ways by women all along the way.
"Just be yourself"
"Women appreciate a man who is kind and courteous"
"Hang in there, and the right woman will come along eventually"
These things may well be what women are after (or think they're after) from a logical standpoint. But vaginas don't logic.
Women give this advice to men, because it's the only advice they know when it comes to finding a partner. Sit around, wait, be pretty, and say hi back when he approaches you. It's great advice for chicks, but it's horrible for men. Women do not have sex with passive men, and yet when asked, that's how women tell men they should be. His mother, his sisters, his teachers, his female friends; literally every woman a man knows will dump this shitty advice on him. And after all of that, no woman he's interested in will ever tell him he's doing it wrong, because it's antithetical to what they are biologically driven to want: a man who just gets it.
When you're taught the wrong things all your life, sometimes a swift kick in the teeth is necessary to set your shit straight. And what seems obvious to you may be revelatory to another.