There's a lot of fuss made about the concept of "alpha" and "beta" personality traits and how they intertwine with SMV and appeal to women. Apparently, "beta" personality traits are highly unappealing and an instant turn-off in social interactions not just with the female gender, but in general. Our ancestors understood this. That's why most males up to the 70s/80s were raised in a certain manner which would ensure that they would grow up to be as "alpha" as possible.
Take a look at your grandfather. He's very likely respected not just within the family, but by his social circle and society in general. Your grandmother, his wife, is still with him after decades of marriage and the thought of cheating or leaving him probably never crossed her mind. He's self-assured, confident, speaks his mind and his input is always appreciated.
Obviously, there are exceptions to the example that I've set above. But I think that most can agree, this is the way that an elderly male behaves and is treated within society. Clone an entire population of them, and you have what you had in the early/mid 20th century - a largely monogamous society, low divorce rates and families with men as their backbones.
Now, the obvious question is, what changed? Why are divorce rates so high today? Why is cheating a real possibility within the vast majority of LTRs? All of this boils down to parenting and societal values. Traditional gender roles are pretty much a subject of scrutiny and laughter nowadays, but they served a real purpose when applied and their abolition shows drastic cultural changes.
From an early age, boys were projected to certain masculine behavioral traits, values and hobbies. They were pushed into sports, drove bycicles and played with toy trucks. They were taught to never cry. They were taught to fight back when pushed. When they screwed up, they would be disciplined. All of this ultimately served one purpose - they grew up to be strong, confident and self-assured males. Most men were "alpha", with omissions being few and in-between. The result was monogamy.
Flashforward a couple of decades later. Liberal indoctrination creeped into family life. Suddenly, it was okay for men to cry and show affection whenever they feel like it. When bullied and ostracized, they should ignore it or inform incapable authorities. Disciplination is greatly regulated and limited, because all those poor little children would be greatly damaged by spanking from time to time. Women went from being respected, to being pedestalized. Combine this with the effects of technological revolution and mass media, and suddenly we've bred a society of wimps. Weak men riddled with insecurities. Depression and social anxiety going rampart.
Thankfully, change is always possible. Self-improvement is never a bad thing. But always remember, your grandfather didn't need any self-improvement. He never had to worry about "maintaining frame" or "working on his personality". It was all natural to him.
[deleted] 6y ago
"Your grandmother, his wife, is still with him after decades of marriage and the thought of cheating or leaving him probably never crossed her mind."
Or more likely the thought did cross her mind from time to time, but she knew that if she was caught she would be ostracized from society and he would divorce her for adultery, leaving her destitute.
cvrpapc 6y ago
I see the terms quite a bit: Alpha and beta. I don't quite understand what they mean in terms of Traditional Values versus more modern values. Well I agree that there are certain aspects of parenting that have changed not for the better but for the worse, society as a whole is changed. The workplace has changed. The expectations of gender and of individuals interactions in the workplace have changed. Men and women have changed. No amount of chasing Nostalgia is going to bring that 1950s mentality back. In fact it's that nostalgia that is probably more dangerous than anything else that we faced both politically and personally. How do you think Trump got elected?
Game on, Alpha traits need to be tempered with some beta traits in order to survive and adapt in a mixed gender workplace, college, home, etc. If you have female co-worker sometimes compromise and communication need to be used rather than force and aggression. It's about getting the job done, not about ego. In the minute you make it about your ego you lost. Ultimately refusing to consider to change your strategies is self-defeating. You'll simply get played by the system the minute you underestimate women. As much as it may piss people off, women are people, and they aren't going anywhere. So you either learn to deal with it or you quit your job I guess. Or find a way to change the entire economic structure of the United States so men can be the sole Breadwinners again. Good luck with that. That's why Nostalgia is so dangerous because it makes us focus on ideas that are simply not feasible.
Even though people may not agree with the way that things are going quote on quote, it's the reality we live in and no amount of posturing and writing memos to public message boards is going to change that.
If you insist on talking about Grandad's values, I'm pretty sure you would disagree with today's workplace. What I see is a lack of professionalism. I see people coming to work in jeans and t-shirts looking like crap. Exercising some self-censorship would greatly benefit people. Unfortunately the line between the work-life and the home life is becoming more and more blurred so the challenge of maintaining a professional environment is harder.
red_matrix 6y ago
Think of modern times - both parents have to work just to get by, kids are latch key with no supervision until 6pm. Gen X was on their own but had no internet so they were raised in a tribal way - by their peers. Today, the youth are raised by social media. Social media is optimized to steal your attention... not the best role model. Plus porn - kids are exposed to more porn than ever before. This is probably why voyeurism and cuckholding is becoming mainstream. Also, online dating makes 'sugaring' accessible and acceptable - we're going back to harems. I have no idea how all this will turn out but society is in the middle of a major shift.
AwesomeCool909 6y ago
Life is cycler, so the shift is easy to see after studying history
Small group of men with power become smaller
Soft harems become real harems
Poor men eventually get sick of shit and fight to become alpha themselves
Constant fighting over who is the current alpha, massive knowledge of tech and history lost, society fragments into small groups, woman become useful only as trophies, war and death are frequent
Eventually, one group gets sick of fighting and invents religion and later marriage
marriage and religion breed unity, reinvent honor and respect, love becomes a word again.
This group conquers everyone else with it's new found strength... easily
Group gets comfortable and peace forms
Woman want the best genes still and slowly push men to compete harder and harder for the best girl (in new ways that do not break the law)
Men, for once, can enjoy life without being a tool or weapon and woman as more then tools of pleasure and baby raising
Men, out of ignorance and new found peace, grant more power to woman, not understanding why they were made into trophies for men in the first place
Woman use power to force more conflict and competition
Eventually, woman begin only dating a small group of men and men start killing other men financialy just to compete.
Soft harems form and men become increasingly "toxic" and woman become increasingly picky and narcissistic
Start at the beginning to continue
Technology as advanced to the point that MGTOW is possible, with knowledge like this becoming possible to understand.
But until technology passes a certain point to stop this cycle, it will keep happening (might not be a good thing either, depending how it is stopped).
Side note: keeping sex restraint leads to the happiest times historically (people focus on things like hobbies and goals that offer better long term value for them, instead of chasing sex constantly).
Entropy-7 6y ago
I am 50 now. My first Red Pill moment that I can remember was when I was 3 or 4 years old and I went crying to my mother wailing "this other kid took my toy and pushed me down!"
My mother's response/advice? "Take your toy back and push him down." And so the journey began.
TheEndlessRoadAhead 6y ago
I like to take responsibility for my own failures.
But when I think about my grandfather, that man was fucking solid as stone, both physically and mentally. He was a construction worker his entire life. We aren't talking heavy machinery, hard hats and all that shit, we're talking about what basically amounts to slave labor in 40-42 degree Celsius weather. Imagine an entire lifetime of that.
My grandma drank the blood out of him by constant nagging and bitching, and he'd pretty much turn over his entire paycheck to her which lead to alcoholism. But I'll be Goddamned if he wasn't respected.
Even today, 5 years after he passed, I still hear from the older folk "Hey I knew your grandfather, he was fucking tough as nails."
So here I am at 22, with a fucked up life, learning on the motherfucking internet what my dad should have taught me and what my grandfather knew his entire life.
If I amount to be 1/100th of what he was, it'll be good.
shaggyctes88 6y ago
Nice story. My advice? Use him as a role model, become as strong and respected/feared as him and also learn from his mistakes....the old generations taught by example. We fucked up and we even expect to be spoonfed like babies. Be a good man and honor your old man by becoming him and then better than him! I'm doing my best to surpass my dad and my grandad...those two fuckers were respected and feared and so will I be.
JamesSkepp 6y ago
That's a fantasy.
You're mixing 2 things:
First thing is mixing of the "I'm alpha b/c I was raised strict and to be mentally strong" with the "alpha is contextual". Among the equal peers in 19th century "alpha status" was as contextual as it is now. If we're both "raised to be alpha" but I outframe you, you're not alpha anymore, I am.
SOME men grew up to be alphas, but without a doubt most grew and were groomed by society to be BP.
Second thing is mixing up men running the world during the perceived "good old times" with men (in general, as a group) being alphas. The society was mostly run by men (not alphas, but men), but it also had BIG minuses - women were pedestalized and treated with gentlemanly mindset, you had protocol for most of your behaviours, you had rules that regulated what man can do with and to a woman in social and in private non-sexual context, men catered to women a lot, you had the idiotically overblown worship of the concept of "honour" and women were a large part of that.
Monogamy was MOST DEFINITELY not the result of men being alpha or men being "strong, confident and self-assured". Monogamy is a social norm that regulates sex in society to enable stable environment for children (and few other things). If you really wanted to go with "alpha" thing, do remember that both alpha men, and most alpha primates have either harems /and/or engage in promiscuous behaviour with multiple females.
In hindsight, for me, it was an early indication of what came after - the increase of power of women and decline of power of men, both in SMP and in general society. We dropped the actual "alpha" activities, but kept the pedestalization.
You're assuming that women didn't cheat before "modern liberalism era". That's simply unrealistic. No amount of parenting and social values will EVER stop a "trad-con good girl" to suck a an alpha dick if she can do it without anyone finding out. Been there, done that. There are no "good trad-con girls" now, there weren't any before. We just didn't know about the stuff they did, b/c we didn't have the means (internet) to propagate that knowledge (call it TRP for simplicity) wide and fast, we didn't have massive, bulk-like confirmation of how and why women behave like they do, we only had anecdotal evidence of few men that MAYBE told you the actual story (assuming one was open enough to tell everything AND assuming he actually had the full story, which considering hamstering from women is very doubtful).
The problem with "traditional gender role" you chose is that the 19th century (and half of 20th, I'm simplifying to 1950s for simplicity) model meant you had to, according to your chosen time period, court the girl, then marry her, then provide for her and your children for the rest of your life. And that's it. That was ALL of what you were supposed to experience in the m-f department according to the "traditional gender role" you chose.
Another thing is that the "traditional gender role" you chose is not aligned with male sexual strategy, it's aligned with female strategy. No abundance (sex after marriage), no selection (b/c no abundance), forced commitment (marry or be a pariah, must provide for wife), built-in exchange of sex for resources (if she's the only pussy, so she controls your access to entire pussy you'll ever get - hers). That's not a world for a man, that's a world for a woman.
That's total bullshit. They didn't have the tools to improve themselves (like we do now), but that doesn't mean he was an "ideal alpha" b/c he was "more resilient than today's men are". You have an idealized image of "good old times". That's simply not the case. There were men that were alpha, most were beta and most of each category were BP.
You are right about one thing - men are on average less "manly" than they were 100 years ago. Rest of your post is "trad-con marriage" apologetics disguised under "modern liberalism destroyed society". As much as I do agree with you that things did change - GTFO with marriage and monogamy as something that was EVER good or desired by men b/c that's BP mentality hidden under apparent "redpilling" the reader of how the "good old times were better".
Patriarchysaurus 6y ago
Yes, it's not well known around here, but feminism is essentially traditional gender roles (for men) dialed up to 11. Man is still expected to be Warrior and Provider for life, but he doesn't get to keep the wife.
If traditional marriage favored the woman (and it did); the modern sexual marketplace is a monopoly where females get to order endless alpha fux & beta bux like pizza--just an iBorg app away.
MattyAnon Admin 6y ago
I don't buy this. This is what we IMAGINE it was like. Probably from media portrayals. Men in the 60's weren't all like Don Draper as we might imagine.
Women like to point and laugh and undermine traditional values. Then they hit 30 and they want to be married and have a man look after them while they raise children. Talking to them about equality at that point is apparently deeply sexist.
So what's changed in the last 50 years? My opinion:
No fault divorce (along with no-fault alimony payments and cash payouts for women).
Birth control
Insane drop in infant death rate causing the needed population birthrate to be approximately 2.3 per family
Decrease in number of manual (male dominated) jobs due to mechanisation.
Welfare state
Information age, DNA tests, detailed tracking of people
Single most important of these is the number of expected children being 2 rather than 5-8. This means women got the opportunity to start having kids later (starting 30 rather than 23).
Weirdly men responded to all this by accepting marriage 2.0 and pretending it is marriage 1.0.
Comparison of the new vs the old:
She's ten years older. She's had 30 dicks instead of none. She can divorce you on a whim (and she profits, regardless of fault). You get ten years less time with her before she is completely over the hill, and you miss out on the best ten years of her (although ideally you were doing her friends from age 20-30, but most men weren't). She'll be working her easy low-paid part time job rather than looking after your house and children (and claiming that she works "ten times harder than any man"). AND she's more likely to divorce you.
It's not surprising the marriage rate is dropping. What's stunning is that any man marries at all.
Disciple_of_Libertas 6y ago
The West has been doomed to this since the enlightenment. Enjoy the decline, this is the train's final stop: https://youtu.be/cPembXZMKv0
daringdeviljackass 6y ago
Wow. Makes me proud of the german philosophers and leaders that opposed enlightenment.
Disciple_of_Libertas 6y ago
Haven't read enough about those men.
Hillarysdilddo_2016 6y ago
99% (peer reviewed, scientific figure) of people get their marching orders from the media industrial complex (MIC) which defines the cultural zeitgeist in the west. This is why people often have an opinion, but zero awareness of why they hold said opinion. People, en masse, are essentially mindless autonomatons that do as they are told. Females are especially succeptible to this form of brainwashing.
Since the MIC is just the propaganda arm for the elite, it is no wonder that they push degenerate values that lead to the destruction of culture and identity.
That is the reason for the breakdown of society. Very simply: it's profitable (monetarily and raw power) for the elite.
Other nations have resisted this cancer due to their cultural legacy (a strong cohesive cultural identity). However, as this is unprofitable to the elite they are quickly metastasizing their bankrupt ideology to the rest of the world but in a graduated manner. You can look to contemporary Indian culture for examples: rise of feminism, perversion in Bollywood.
tbu987 6y ago
This is pretty true. In todays society discipling hardly has any affect. Detention "so what just a bit of my time", Told off "yeah yeah same old boring lecture". Smacked around with a cane or brush in front of your classmates. Now thats embarassing so u already try to avoid it but the coolest is when you can get away with it without getting caught, now your setting goals, using/developing your sharpness and learning to take risks even though you can get badly punished if you fail, learning to succeed takes big risks and failure hurts. Life aint gonna comfort you if you fail you gotta get up yourself unlike school where they literally keep you in cotton wool. It makes you tougher obviously. Teaches you proper discipline and acts as a deterant (sometimes). Not saying we should take big risks and break laws but learn our boundaries and be able to take risks. If we fail we gotta face our punishment but get up yourself cuz no ones gonna help you in the real world instead of staying depressed. Thats how you become successful. Just my take on disciplining and how society greatly lacks this nowadays.