This isn't anything new but I haven't seen it discussed in quite some time here and it is well worth revisiting the topic for all the new members and lurkers who've recently joined.
TRP spends a lot of time discussing Alphas and Betas. That's a great dichotomy for men trying to improve their lives and improve their understanding and interactions with women. However, it sets up friction with women because as the man is trying to change the male/female dynamic towards his set of goals, she'll be trying to shift it towards, or maintain it at, her goals. So, it's helpful to examine her goals by looking at how she views men.
It's simple, for women there are three types of men: creeps, good guys and assholes. Believe it or not, most (healthy) women want men to be good guys. That's what most women believe will make them the happiest. And to some degree that's true (to the degree that she can readily swing between a couple of these good guys based on her current needs without diminishing her potential future swings due to her past swings). So what does it mean to be a creep, a good guy or an asshole?
First, it is important to understand that, just as for men, for women all intersexual interactions are sexual in nature. More specifically, it is about his offerings in exchange for her (possible) sexual attention. This is almost always implied, at least by the female as this gives her the greatest degree of flexibility. In short, as men develop their abilities to show their worth as sexual partners, women implicitly offer the possibility of sex in exchange for access to that ability. This underlies all natural non-familial male/female interactions. And that's where the labels come in, it's a quality rating system.
CREEPS--Creeps are those men whose sexual expectations explicitly exceed their utility to females. Think about it. Whenever you hear women deem a person as creepy they are always saying that about a man, always in regards to how he's interacting with a woman and it is always meant to shame or slap him down. In short, it is their way of A) forcing him to stop and B) signaling to other women the issue. It is always about him, never about what he is doing. That's because the action is ok, if you are a guy who is worth it. Chad sending flowers out of the clue? Great! Beta Bob sending flowers at all? CREEPY! Chad surprising you on your birthday? How Romantic. Bob doing so? HOW'D YOU KNOW MY BIRTHDAY YOU STALKER! What makes these things creepy for Bob? He's assuming the relationship and doing so publicly without having the clear social currency to back it up. Could he have obtained a relationship with that girl by engaging in a pattern supplicating overtures over an extended period of time thereby giving her time to explore other alternatives and also thereby allowing her to socially show his other values before granting him relational status? Quite possibly, but that would make him a good guy and not a creep. Why, because creeps are those whose explicit sexual expectations clearly exceed their utility. Women intently dislike creeps because they end up being of no functional use at best and at worst damage their ability to use other men (for example by a creep who publicly claims a girl in order to preemptively chase off rivals).
GOOD GUYS--As I said before, most women believe they want good guys. Knowing what a good guy is helps understand why women believe that. A good guy is simply a man whose sexual expectations are not as great as his utility. Let that sink in. It is anyone who will give a girl more than she has to give him. The greater his utility and the lower his sexual expectations, the better he is. This is why orbiters are so desired by women. They will do anything and expect nothing. It's also why "sex" or a "relationship" will ruin it. It will, because the equation has changed. His expectations have increased. Her profit margin, if you will, has greatly reduced.
Contrary to popular TRP belief, good guys do get laid. But it's important to understand why. It represents a woman's investment in high utility. If he has high value other women will want him and will woo him. This includes by offering him sex. So, a woman will therefore have sex to keep him if she believes other women can and will steal him and her cost to replace him exceeds her cost to keep him (this is the basic of dread). However, she always wants to be ahead in the game. What does that mean? It means she'll dole out sex only at a rate less than the utility he is providing for her. How much less? As little as she feels she safely can (this is the basics of dead bedroom). Honestly it isn't because women are evil, it's because those who couldN'T use their sex for procurement didn't have offspring to survive.
So, when women label a guy a good guy, it means he has value in excess of his sexual expectations. But, this is still highly subjective. Why? because it leaves a lot undefined. It doesn't mean he has small expectations or great value, just that his value exceeds his expectations. So, a beta orbiter likely has little value but he also has small expectations. A high value man may have great expectations but extremely great value. A woman will want both in her life, but she'll use them completely differently.
Being good can even get you female endorsements to other women, but be sure to understand it. If a woman is setting you up with your friends and labels you a "good guy" know that it means the following. He has enough expectations that I can't use him as an orbiter but low enough value that I can't risk having sex with him, however, if another woman has a sexual vacancy he'll stay in his place. You then just have to try to determine what vacancy she'll trying to use you to fill.
Women love them some good guys because of how useful they are.
ASSHOLES-- Women hate assholes. Well, more correctly, they hate how much they love assholes. But why? It's because assholes are those few men whose sexual attractiveness exceeds their actual usefulness. As stated above, women expect to profit from their sexual interactions in large part by a woman's ability to control intersexual interactions by way of their implied sexuality. Assholes turn this upside down. Women want to have sex with assholes even when they are certain they won't profit from it. They can't help themselves and that means they've lost control of the situation. It doesn't mean he has no value, just that his attractiveness exceeds his value. She's willing to do more for him than he is for her and she knows it.
By way of example. When a women calls someone an asshole, he isn't simply doing something she doesn't like. He's doing something presumptive. He's acting outside the social norms and he's doing it in such a manner that only he benefits, or at the very least she doesn't benefit. What makes it worse is that it only makes her want him more. That doesn't mean every time you're called an asshole she wants to sleep with you, it does mean that you're on the right path. You're attractiveness may also need to improve. It's possible you're acting preemptively with no explicit sexual expectation and are therefore called an asshole (if you're explicit sexual expectation was manifest you'd be called a creep). But, if she wants to sleep with you and aren't offering value in kind, she will absolutely call you an asshole.
This is what every man should strive to be. In control of the situation and where his sexuality is the only significant offer of value he extends. It doesn't lend itself to stable LTRs but he can dial it back as necessary if that's his goal. But only after he's mastered the art of being an asshole on demand. And he only does that by understanding what it means to be one.
It should always be your goal when socially (not professionally) meeting a new woman to get her to call you an asshole as soon as possible.
ecosci 7y ago
Husband=beta bux boyfriend=loser single alpha=porn style sex
mill58 7y ago
This is the answer that I have been looking for all this time. Thanks a lot for this information. I finally understand it and after being creep and a nice guy several times I almost had a little idea by now...
[deleted] 7y ago
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Entropy-7 7y ago
There are three parameters given: Utility, Expectations and Sexual Attractiveness (let's say SMV for short). That means there are 3 pairs: U/E, U/SMV, E/SMV. Leaving out the possibility of two of these parameters being equal, one will always exceed the other.
That would imply 8 different types of men.
Alternatively, the parameters will be in a hierarchy ranked 1, 2, 3 which implies 6 types of men.
So 1 & 2 are the assholes, 3&4 are the creeps and 5&6 are the good guys: Three types of guys but two variations on each. The problem here is that these are all relative descriptions rather than being set on an absolute scale of sorts.
From the sidebar, the two aspects of being alpha are 1) socially dominant and 2) sexually attractive. Tweak this to say "social value", which includes professional success and good interpersonal skills and you can break it down this way:
syf3r 7y ago
it's laughable how little points this got. This is a more fundamental view that explains a lot of other principles and phenomena here at trp.
[deleted] 7y ago
I like your post a lot because you're not putting any fluff into it and also you don't constantly tell the reader to "man-up" like most TRP content.
And yes I most certainly agree that women want a good guy who is also a badass.
Where I would have some criticism is that your post implies that woman are in control of relationships.
Women aren't keeping a honey pot from us. They want and need to get fucked and to be loved.
Some women have immense self control and are far more patient than the average man but even that being true it's still also the case that MEN not women are leaders and they are also initiators. Men initiate physical contact. They begin talking first and they provide the resources up front to make stuff happen.
If you have this perspective or frame of mind that women are watching us all duke it out like gladiators while they feast on fine wine then you're just wrong; women need our affection and attention.
It's all about YOU. If you can get your act together and build a body and a life for yourself then there is nothing to stop you from going and getting what you want.
Imagine a ballsy alpha male going after a girl that he knows he's not equals with. As a man you can do that and if you do it correctly then you gain more than you would of otherwise.
Women can dress up and look all provocative but if they are overweight, have no manners, no money, no connections and so on then they can't pull off the same kind of stunt to get a 9 when they are a 5.
RPFlame 7y ago
Me before TRP: "All men are pretty much the same, it's just a matter of personal preference that defines who is attractive and who isn't".
Me after TRP: "There are some pretty fucking clear lines between the attractive male and the not attractive male. So clear that I have no idea what the fuck I was smoking back then. Now time to identify what is what and apply it to fix my shit".
Dinolover27 7y ago
Seriously, I know this place has a stigma but this shit is starting to wake me up
no_face 7y ago
Its a 2x2 matrix of smv vs attention given to woman and therefore 4 types of men.
Low SMV, No attention = invisible
Low SMV, Gives attention = creepy
High SMV, Gives attention = orbiter
High SMV, No attention = chad
scissor_me_timbers00 7y ago
Lol Punnett square on this
iamneptuno 7y ago
High SMV orbiter? Got especially beautifully stoned today, son?
refusewool 7y ago
Distinguishing between a creep and an or orbiter really depends on whether or not the attention given is sexual (low SMV sexual attention = creep) or platonic (low-mid smv non sexual attention = orbiter)
theONE843663 7y ago
Nah it's more like 4x2
Low SMV, no attention = invisible Low SMV, attention = creeper
Med SMV, no attention = still invisible Med SMV, attention = Friendzone/Orbiter
Upper Mid, no attention = He must be gay! Upper Mid, attention = Beta bucks boyfriend
High SMV, no attention = Chad High SMV, attention = Alpha provider/gold digger's wet dream
marplaneit 7y ago
Actually this is pretty spot on.
lodro 7y ago
get off reddit and talk to grilll
theONE843663 7y ago
Yes I talk to my grill everyday when I'm grilling stuff on it. Thank you for your concern but I definitely provide my grill with proper emotional support.
TheJedi_Lied 7y ago
Enjoyed your post, I'd like to add that "assholes" usually provide a less tangible form of value: excitement. Whether drugs, thrills, or tingles from sexual cat and mouse, he brings dopamine and desire front and center. Thanks for some decent reading.
[deleted] 7y ago
Well put. Makes complete sense on a biological/neural/chemical level.
newName543456 7y ago
IOW:
Be handsome
Be attractive
Millixaw 7y ago
Creep = Ugly Beta
Good guy = Good-Looking Beta
Asshole = Alpha
[deleted] 7y ago
Women get fucking furious when they see you as attractive but can't extort any other value than sexual from you. I love it because it's even-fucking-steven.
SlyAM 7y ago
Good post OP, I will now strive to be called an asshole.
crx1 7y ago
According to evo psych, our lizard brain categorizes people into 4 types:
1) Of my tribe (my friend/good person) 2) Not of my tribe (my enemy/bad person) 3) Sexual partner 4) Indifferent/invisible
MattyAnon Admin 7y ago
More simply:
Creepy = unattractive and trying to be sexual.
Nice guys = friends. Supportive and asexual in her eyes. Not being sexual. Perhaps flattering but not escalating. Beta orbiter.
Good guys = beta but attractive enough that she hopes she'll eventually develop attraction. Enjoys the free meals. Persuades him that "one day I'll grow up enough to want you".
Assholes = so named because they are pursuing a male primary sexual strategy rather than a female primary sexual strategy. Attractive but not supportive. She can't be seen to approve of anti-female-supportive behaviour but finds it very attractive. Labels him an asshole for this reason.
Tuga_Lissabon 7y ago
Good guys - she knows she'll never be attracted, but a part of her wishes she were because then life would be simpler.
She knows she'd be a better person herself if she treated the good guy well.
Sometimes she'll even reproach herself for it, and promise to treat the good guys better. This happens quite often as she wakes up sore in an empty bedroom.
NightwingTRP 7y ago
This is basically it.
When you ask a woman about men she doesn't talk about nice guys or creeps because they don't qualify as "men" in her book. Good men do exist and I'm not talking about the good guys in this post who're basically slightly more attractive beta orbiters. "Good men" are just extremely high SMV men who have this high SMV naturally. Even using beta behaviour can't bring their SMV down enough points to be beneath the woman's SMV, so they're still attractive. They're extremely rare and their relationships always end in about 6 months to a year due to continued beta behaviour... however the women are happy enough to hang on for social status since he's publicly so attractive that it raises her social status in the eyes of others.
The only example I can find of benevolent alpha types is described in occamsusername's LTR series which you'll find in the AskTRP sidebar. I don't think most women are aware that such a man exists.
consolsnowdnir 7y ago
I'd put nice guys under creepy actually. Nice guys are really more "nice guys" and give off an uneasy feeling. Fight or flight response semi kicks in* (not yet to hair raising but alertness is definitely there).
Edit: * this is assuming I'm alone with the guy
MattyAnon Admin 7y ago
To put niceguys into girlspeak: these are guys you are happy to be friends with, but not fuck and not date.
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grody311 7y ago
Hey you've just described myself. I'd love to see more of this discussion. Is there a place to read about your particular theory? If there isn't, maybe making a thread just on this topic would be helpful.
[deleted] 7y ago
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grody311 7y ago
I was able to find that article on the eunich-rapist dichotomy. I see now how I took myself out of the dating pool because I had deemed myself mentally disabled (mild aspergers mixed with child abuse/neglect from an alcoholic mom and an immature dad). A large part of why I feel like a "creep" is because of this label.
So when I hit on a woman, it's not just some loser hitting on a woman (which is inherently creepy), but it's a disabled eunich trying to rape her. This is the kind of thinking that will prevent a person from leaving the house, let alone expressing romantic intentions for a woman. This is something that I will need to confront if I'm ever going to date anyone. It's amazing what a lack of confidence does to the mind.
As for making a new thread about this, you could just make a thread restating what you initially posted. Even link to some of the articles you just suggested. You don't have to, of course, but if you were interested in getting more feedback, I'm sure people would respond.
beachbloke 7y ago
Because women don't want their genetics so strongly that their animal side would prefer the unattractive man walk off a cliff. The man is so unattractive the woman feels it would be better if no woman in her tribe reproduced with him. That man is only kept alive to be a slave of lonely labor.
NeoreactionSafe 7y ago
That's perfect.
Women respect men who follow nature and are focused on achieving their own sexual strategy just as nature designed us to.
The term "asshole" is a measure of respect.
It's her saying:
"You aren't a clueless slave and that both annoys and excites me."
Funny because the asshole is normally associated with being a "stupid fuck" or a guy that takes it in the ass as a feminine receiver in sex. For a woman to call a guy an asshole it makes no logical sense at all based on the word itself.
But as a projection it makes sense...
Women fear being used and yet desire to submit and be used.
A man who takes his male sexual strategy as his primary above women will seek to dominate and make women submit to his strategy. So objectively he's the opposite of the guy taking it up the ass.
She insults with inverted logic... asshole is a projection of female weakness.
Women often do this... they insult with inversion mixed in.
[deleted] 7y ago
Very similar to "You must be gay"
mummersfarce_is_done 7y ago
So they are saying, they themselves are lesbians?
6RedPandas 7y ago
What would a woman imply by saying that?
BurnYourFlag 7y ago
You must be gay probably follows this logic: my only value is in sexual apeal. a man not liking her is a direct attack on her only perceived value. Her ego responds labeling him gay to assure her she has value. Also a really great shit test.
[deleted] 7y ago
Here's the hamstering logic:
"He doen't want to fuck me. He must either be:
Therefore, he must be gay."
It's a rejection defense mechanism. Women can't handle rejection, remember?
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StoicCrane 7y ago
When women call guys "Asshole" she isn't labeling him as much as she's hinting that she wants him in her ass.
NeoreactionSafe 7y ago
That's an interesting spin on it.
How about this...
If she called him a "massive dick" because his dick rules what he is doing in the interaction (male primacy) then the guy might take it as a compliment.
So to prevent that she...
Inverts the scenario and calls him the opposite of a dick.
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StoicCrane 7y ago
With feminine invervsion there's a dangerous potential for men unaccustomed to it to become gaslit. A chick can call a dude Asshole, says she hates him when she's really attracted, says don't touch her with a starry eyed expression and a smile asking to be felt all over but to a third party it can be spun to look like harassment due to the absence of expression and nuances if told straight.
Girl: Well, officer [insert guy's name] was coming onto me and I called him an asshole but he wouldn't take a hint. I told him I hated him and not to touch me but he tried to reach out and grab me!
Guy: Stands there looking stupid because in a sense it happened but all of the contextual nuace is conveniently omitted or disregarded.
When women play games of inversion it could cost a man his reputation or put him behind bars if the chick is crazy enough.
NeoreactionSafe 7y ago
Inversion is deception and manipulation... you think women might do this?
A lot?
Yeah, I think they instinctively invert as much as possible.
A woman's words are like a smokescreen... always saying what isn't true.
Well, not always... sometimes they are honest just to make it confusing.
The word "asshole" means different things in different parts of the country too.
Personally I think the better phrase would be "acting like a dick" because it would be honest. (male primacy)
But the Feminist Shit Test is to make you not know how the dick functions... to "reinvent the dick" in the minds of beta males.
https://youtu.be/ogtHKIQN9Eg
...like maybe you lose your penis.
herewegoagaindammi 7y ago
Dude why am I always seeing you here? Go lift and work hard. Stop wasting time here!
:D
[deleted] 7y ago
That misses a lot of the nuance. Attractive guys can be creepy, unattractive guys can be nice guys and assholes. A solidly nice guy or even an asshole can suddenly fall down to creepy if unaware of the dynamics.
vandaalen 7y ago
Not if you use attraction as it should be used. Being attractive does not mean that you are a beau, it means that your percieved value is high enough in order for her to desire you.
[deleted] 7y ago
Physical looks != attractive.
Attractive is a giant umbrella, of which looks, status, personality, social skill, and lizard brain triggers (e.g. machiavellian) all reside in.
handsome guys can be creepy. attractive guys, by definition, can't be
nicksnice 7y ago
What about the "fuckboy" this one might be just as good as asshole in terms of being desirable to women.
theONE843663 7y ago
She's literally telling you that you're fuckable if she calls you that. Being called a fuckboy is a goddamn compliment. But apparently, Billy betas think otherwise...????????????
SlyAM 7y ago
This all the way. My ex use to call me a fuckboy all the time and the old blue beta me would always get offended and say back "I am not" with a super butt hurt, offended expression. Back then I thought fuckboys were just the thirsty assholes that all girls hated.
If I only could of noticed the "fuck me" eyes my ex gave me every time she playfully called me a fuckboy, I would of left that relationship with another girls virginity under my belt.
theONE843663 7y ago
That last part... Cringe hard bro. You srs didn't fuck her? In a relationship? And I doubt she was virgin tbh. And the past is gone.... It all went...Like dusk Till Dawn...Isn't that the way? Everybody's got their dues is life to pay lol.
SlyAM 7y ago
It was a slippery slope brother. She was 14 at the time and I was 16 so I was always battling myself morally on it. I didn't feel like getting charged with rape if her parents found out and went batshit on me.
theONE843663 7y ago
Oh Yeh the world is fucked up man. People say slippery slope is a logical fallacy... But I don't buy that nonsense. Slippery slope is valid in my eyes.
Stationarity 7y ago
Good post. I think women put men in 3 categories as well.
spazgamz 7y ago
madethewrongmistake 7y ago
Rough proportions: 1%, 9%, 90%
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BluepillProfessor 7y ago
Its an old game. Kill...fuck...marry.
[deleted] 7y ago
lol OP drafts up a thesis paper and you sum it up in 7 words. Nice work.
vagbutters 7y ago
You just blew my mind-- this makes so much sense.
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awalt_cupcake 7y ago
holy shit this makes too much sense
[deleted] 7y ago
Yeah wow I never would have put that together lol
HughGlass1780 7y ago
and in the order given it would be
Yea?No?
[deleted] 7y ago
No....
Kill-Creep
Marry-Nice Guy
Fuck-Asshole
arrayay 7y ago
What order? The one in OP?
Then no, they kill the creep and fuck the asshole.
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Auvergnat 7y ago
Blue-pill-me never understood that game. "Wow, kill is a bit of a stretch.. And why split between fuck and marry?". Would-bang / Would-not-bang was such a clearer, funnier game.
Soon after my unplugging, I immediately got it. It's a game that was likely made by women, for women. Fuck the attractive alpha, marry the dependable beta, kill the useless creepy omega. This game is Hypergamy spelled out.
madethewrongmistake 7y ago
If you are using wolf pack hierarchy, you have it wrong. Betas are the vast majority of wolves, hoping to get the alpha position by succession. Omegas are the ones that leave the pack to start fights with other alphas by fucking their females. The fight is to the death, and if he wins, he is the alpha of the new pack. This is consistent with primate society as well. Humans are maybe a little different because there is so much variation in the economic value of a beta.
Auvergnat 7y ago
I am not using wolf pack hierarchy concepts.
The alpha/beta dichotomy in TRP (or sometimes the extended version alpha/beta/omega) IS NOT how biologists define "alpha" in animal hierarchies.
In animal hierarchies such as wolves and some apes, there is one dominant male fucking all females and all other males try to get to that spot, as you correctly describe. I don't think biologists even talk of "beta" males.
The Manosphere appropriated the concept of "alpha" to describe the dominant man who fucks plenty of girls, but being non-biologists they probably later came up with "beta" to describe the males who are less dominant but get sex nonetheless in exchange of their providing to the female, even though (again as you correctly describe) it doesn't apply to animal hierarchies such as wolves or gorillas.
The modern use of alpha/beta in the manosphere is best explained by the saying "alpha fucks; beta bucks", implying there are some men who are sexually attractive and get sex and there are some men who can provide and get some sex in exchange for their providership. More accurately, they refer not to men but to the dual sexual strategy of women: there are some men that women want to associate with purely for sex and there are some men that women want to associate with for their dependable providing.
If you still take issue with this redefinition of the biologist's concepts of "alpha", you're welcome to use the terms of "short-term sexual strategy" vs "long-term sexual strategy" that are used among evolutionary psychologists. These are what we actually mean by "alpha fucks; beta bucks"
Byxit 7y ago
OP's conclusion:
Where does this asinine bs get dredged up? omg.
StoicCrane 7y ago
Question is now how does a man embody the "Asshole" arch-type on demand OP?
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HughGlass1780 7y ago
TL:DR Treat em like dirt, they stick to ya like mud.
harsha_hs 7y ago
Sorry to say this here in TRP. I have a plate, who is about 6/10 in looks but she goes out of the way to do nice things for me. She sucks my dick like crazy, she cooks, takes me on vacation, buys me gifts, always she pays for movie tickets, take care of me when I'm sick etc. But, I am not so much attracted to her. I chase girls who play hard to get, even if they are 6/10 in looks department.
Simply put. Guys try to woe girls they are attracted to by spending money and girls try to woe guys they are attracted to by putting out.
No alpha No beta.
Advice :
PM me if you still don't get the booty.
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AnjaJutta 7y ago
Even if you are a super good guy, just by having above average looks women will call you 'asshole' to describe the way your looks make them feel powerless.
The_Good_Delusion 7y ago
A novel and very useful perspective. This also explains why so few men can swallow the red pill: Before you become an asshole, you have to transition from a good guy to a creep, and that's painful.
refusewool 7y ago
Not true. You can certainly transition from good guy to asshole. The only difference between creep and asshole is SMV. Both want sex and offer little value but the creep is unattractive. That being said, even unattractive good guys can skip the creep label by withdrawing from girls and working on SMV before getting back in the game.
[deleted] 7y ago
Was literally thinking the same. For guys whose self-value derives from what others think about them, being viewed as a creep must be the worst thing ever.
Dinolover27 7y ago
I'm already there, the problem is reaching the social maturity and overall fucks to flex my asshole nature in flirty way. When I say I'm an asshole I mean a true asshole, not the one who has a heart of gold waiting to treat only his maiden with respect but shuns the world. Most women don't like an outright asshole (at first) because he exceeds what she can control, they like the guy who'll kick a cat and then go cuddle it, if I kick it it's gonna go flying and best believe I'm gonna get tacos after.
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KyfhoMyoba 7y ago
You just described alphas (assholes, needed for genetic benefits), betas (good guys, needed for provisioning), and omegas (creeps - of no value whatsoever).
Byxit 7y ago
Where do you source this fundamental principle to your theory?
[deleted] 7y ago
Somehow you need to tie in the fact that women don't really want good guys or nice behavior for that matter.
What women (and most men) don't get is that women are attracted to dangerous, exciting ZFG asshole jerkboys and when they describe what they want, its a combination of traits like attainability and comfort from the asshole that already lit her pussy on fire NOT from any other dude who is naturally nice.
[deleted] 7y ago
And you know theres a girl reading this right now, who has her beau in pyjamas, reading 50 shades, who rolls her eyes at you, because she loves her man.
I mean, she's 30, what is she supposed to love at the moment?
[deleted] 7y ago
oh for sure she is eyerolling and sure she didnt settle for some beta and isnt consciously remorseful for all the better men she couldnt get to commit.
but her behavior speaks another story. she isnt looking to please the pajama boy, she is quietly seething that he sucks and treats him like shit and gets madder that he allows it
Ozymanberg 7y ago
You gotta settle when you hit the wall, no?
[deleted] 7y ago
She honestly believes it. She actually changes, for a time
Auvergnat 7y ago
OP, I think this is awesome draft material but you need to think it through a bit more.
You defined creeps as (emphasis mine) :
A good guy as (emphasis mine) :
and assholes as (emphasis mine) :
See what you did here? You replaced "expectation" by "attractiveness". Had you kept the word "expectation", your definition of the asshole would have matched your definition of the creep.
So if "sexual expectation > utility" makes one a "creep" while "sexual expectation < utility" makes one a "good guy", where does the "asshole" falls in terms of his "sexual expectations"? What about the fourth case you didn't mention "sexual attractiveness < utility". Sounds like that would be a "creep", but then where does the "nice guy" falls in terms of "sexual attractiveness"?
Your classification doesn't work.
Here how I'd suggest you fix it:
Other people have commented about the alpha/beta/omega classification; some even to say what you wrote is exactly the same (it's not, your details are slightly different). This classification is the standard red pill theory and has stood the test of time. The classification goes as:
alphas are the men to "fuck". They are valuable because they are high in sexual attraction, though they might be low in dependable providership.
betas are the men to "marry" (keep as beta orbiters). They are valuable because they are high in dependable providership, though they might be low in sexual attraction.
So where does your creep/goodguy/asshole terminology fits in?
But "good guy" and "asshole" as you define them don't entirely fit the beta/alpha dichotomy.
Your "good guy" definition in the case of the beta works. In the case of the beta, "sexual expectation" is for her a price to pay in exchange for his providing "utility". As long as the price is lower than the service, the beta will be a "good guy" one. That's why beta orbiters and friendzoned guys are always "good guys". But the faithful and wealthy and supportive husband also is. But what about the orbiter who one day decides to stop orbiting? What about the boyfriend who steadily refuses to propose? These good guys become assholes, because the price now exceeds the beta service. In the case of the beta, an altered definition of your "asshole" works: a beta man whose sexual expectation now exceeds his utility.
Conclusion:
"Good guy" (or "nice guy") and "assholes" are only women's terms for guys who provide them what they want or not. It's quite normal when you think of human relationships as standard human contracts. If your client pays in time or if your contractor provides ahead of schedule, they are "good guys". But the client who fails to pay on time or the contractor who under-performs are "assholes" for giving you a bad deal.
But this dichotomy should not be confused with the foundational alpha/beta one. If your value is in sexual attractiveness, you're alpha. If your value is in dependable providership, you're beta.
If you are seen as a beta, as long as your dependable providership ("utility") exceeds your "sexual expectations", the deal is a good one for her and you're a "good guy". But if it dips below, the deal becomes a bad one for her, you become an "asshole" if you're attractive, or a "creep" if you aren't.
mill58 7y ago
Such a great post and useful information indeed.
Byxit 7y ago
In short: As men get better at sex, women offer sex to get sex (?)
This1sMyWorkAccount 7y ago
I struggled with this in college. I tried to offer my value over my sexuality to every girl I was sexually attracted to. My thought was that I was more than just great sex. Now I know that every girl does not deserve my value and I am selective.
guest123420 7y ago
Looking for some feedback, don't hold back, it'll be taken as constructive. I've long been the paradox of a "good guy asshole", had lots of sexy female friends that I thought, "if I just keep this up, sex is bound to happen!", but at the same time, when I've needed to I've been able to turn up the game and get laid by playing the asshole role. I do prefer to be a "good guy", I am constantly complimented by my business associates, travel partners, friends, family, girls, etc. as one of the nicest and polite people they know(it is how I was raised, has been beneficial, and frankly I don't think changing would be an over all plus for me). A large group of my friends and family who actually know me, however, know that I can turn on the asshole like no other. I label myself as above average on the SMV (humbly) so I often find myself having an easy time approaching girls, or less often, being approached. Once either of these happen I usually am using my "good guy" routine, because I just met someone, and I build it up from there and eventually slip in some teases and some slights.
So, all that word vomit behind us, where and how can I improve my balance of these two characters? Where is the line? I assume it is different every situation, but what are some NO's of the "good guy" and some MUSTs of the "asshole" I can look to apply?
ShamwowTseDung 7y ago
Stop swapping masks and start having standards. Instead of being an asshole to get an effect, do it when it's necessary. Be not the good-guy/asshole "paradox", but the good-guy with a strong backbone. That requires having boundaries that people cannot cross, things you will not tolerate, and become an unpleasant person to enforce. Of course, some tact is necessary to avoid being an insecure dick- you can't just be any kind of asshole.
You can still be a bit of a dick for shits and giggles though, if you are a funny guy and it works with your style.
Lastly, but just as important:
You don't have to live the same way you were raised- some people have the misfortune of having shitty parents, but that should not stop them from being happy and well-adjusted members of society.
What I wanted to mention though- is that it seems you might be overly concerned with your reputation. Just be aware of the sacrifices you will make, in order to keep others happy (especially those who really don't care about you- they exist), and decide whether those sacrifices are worth it for you.
guest123420 7y ago
Well received, thank you for your time. I'm going to take some time to reflect on some of this, because I'll admit a lot of it is true. I think it is also me starting to notice more and more about my beta behavior as I reflect with RP perspectives. What I might have looked at as a strategic move to get laid was actually a moronic move to waste time and money.
ShamwowTseDung 7y ago
Suddenly I feel the need to clarify a few things.
I don't want you to think I'm denouncing the idea of being a good person. I am one myself, and it's part of the reason why I responded, as I drew some similarities and thought I could offer advice.
In regards to people-pleasing, I merely suggest the focus be changed to a "me-pleasing" state. Of course, win-win situations for all sides would be great as well.
I'd like to add one more idea to support my suggestion- and to make it more clear that I'm not merely advising anyone to be selfish.
There is that improbable, if not impossible, task: that is to attempt to please every single person you know- and maintain their state of pleasantness. Time can be spent in much better ways, on simpler things, and all of which are guaranteed to leave you more happier at the end of day.
Onto the subject of your mission, when you figure it out. Among the hardships and obstacles you will face, disappointment will undoubtedly be one of them. That is okay.
Lastly, this is all of my own opinion, free to ignore- or not.
Amishmercenary 7y ago
I'm not sure if this is mentioned here often, but a lot of people don't seem to realize that when you focus on yourself, and try to make yourself better, you're also pleasing the people around you in some way, because you become a person that they actually want to associate with. Increasing your SMV, or even your social value, pleases others, whether they realize it or not.
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BlackMwoyo 7y ago
Breaks up with girl and sees all my mistakes. WELL FUCK.
questionac 7y ago
An orbiter has expectations too. The difference is that he's not letting her know?
So basically if you make a move, she won't try to make an orbiter out of you unless she specifically ljbf you?
So those guys are supposed to be removed from her life, no place for them in it. Right?
PawnToKing 7y ago
Did you define asshole the same as creep? You said creeps have higher SexualGif expectation than utility and said the same about assholes. Correct me if I'm wrong.
IIHotelYorba 7y ago
All men exist in a continuum where they may partially be in two categories or more, throughout their life or even at different times of day. For instance: a man who is at the height of power in his office, ordering his subordinates around may be very beta in a nightclub, around a lot of people and young beautiful girls who have no fucking clue who he is.
This is to account for having men come in from other tribes who want to act like they are king shit once they get to a new one. Unless they can consistently act dominantly in this new place ALSO, women have evolved to stay away from them. Because they may be just that, cool where they come from, but NOT SHIT over here.
Thag and his caveman leader homies from this tribe hit him over the head and his ass is dead. Bad idea for a chick to get pregnant fucking that dude, even if he legitimately WAS the shit back at home.
This is why you have varying degrees of beta orbiters, from creeper to good guy. One guy may have the balls to do favors for a girl while another may be too scared to even talk to her. It makes strategic sense for men to be friends with a girl even if he can't fuck her. Getting in with the social circle and being accepted can sometimes take away the fear of being killed for talking to their women, even if they can't have the original girl who introduced them to the group.
Byxit 7y ago
If you ain't handsome you better be handy. Old as the hills.
randomperson123321 7y ago
This thread is the essence of what is wrong with TRP.
The way men are categorized is wrong. The way women choose is wrong. The reasoning behind all that is wrong.
The worst part is that people give thumbs up and agree. It's the typical "beta" mentality they have.
Guys, instead of reaching nonsensical conclusions, take some time to examine the thread, particularly the definition of each type of man the thread opener gives. Like the following:
"A good guy is simply a man whose sexual expectations are not as great as his utility."
Hell no. This describes the "nice guy" loser types. Of course women are going to choose the assholes over those.
My teenage years were full of assholes who would initially attract women when every other man was creepy or had a "nice guy" mentality. As soon as an "Alpha" type good guy appeared and put the assholes in their place, both men and women would be attracted to him. Not only that. The assholes would end up rejected by the group unless they changed behavior towards the rest peers. The above scenario still happens on my social interactions. 20 years later, nothing changed in this matter.
In the end it's not an "asshole > good guy > creep" relation. It's a "good guy > asshole > nice guy > creep" relation.