A recent submission to The Red Pill subreddit sparked some interesting discussion regarding the concept of engaging in long-term relationships (LTRs) with women.
A common position taken by many Red Pill advocates is that committing to one woman, exclusively, is a strategy for “beta” losers and “blue pill” people. The idea is that if you are truly awesome and “alpha” enough, you don’t have to commit to any one woman. A large number of women will be willing to have sex with you, outside of a committed relationship, simply because you’re awesome. And if some women won’t, that’s not a big deal, because you have an abundance of other women who will. And that abundance of options with other women gives you all of the power to engage with women on your own terms. Because then, no particular woman is unique or special simply because she’s willing to touch your dick. If one woman won’t fuck you, another will.
This recent post took a different stance on the concept of LTRs, arguing that the common Red Pill position that relegates LTRs to a loser, blue pill, beta strategy is just a bunch of ignorant shaming by bitter and butt-hurt men who aren’t awesome and alpha enough to keep a woman’s interest in a relationship. The idea is that constantly chasing new girls is hard work for diminishing returns, while having one particular girl in a Red-Pill-style LTR who respects the hell out of you and fucks you on demand is far more rewarding. The quality of girls who allow themselves to be non-exclusively plated by guys is lower than that of girls who insist on a relationship, so the argument is that engaging in LTRs nets you higher quality girls. And that “mature” men eventually realize that banging a bunch of meaningless girls is an empty pursuit and want something more.
The idea is that if you work hard to become and remain a high value man, you dominate your relationships with women, and you are truly awesome, valuable, and alpha enough, you can engage in committed relationships with women and they won’t cheat, leave, or misbehave.
Stop here. Read the paragraph above one more time, kind of slowly, before continuing.
Now, let me rephrase that paragraph in more general terms:
If you behave a certain way, and avoid certain other behaviors, women will stay committed to you, have lots of sex with you, treat you with respect, and never cheat on your or leave you.
It wasn’t that long ago that most of us believed exactly that. However, the behaviors we engaged in to try to reach that goal involved paying for dates, backrubs, foot rubs, sitting on our hands and not being sexually assertive, and generally being nice as hell, generous, and respectful. We believed that if we behaved in certain ways with women, we would end up with a permanent, faithful, high sex relationship with a woman who treats us well. And we know how that went.
Many men who stumble across The Red Pill fall into the trap of remaining beta, blue pill, loser men, who simply substitute one set of behaviors for another. They believe that if they are aloof, narcissistic assholes with muscles, money, social aptitude, lots of options with women, and a push-pull, reward-punishment, dominant dynamic with a woman, that this will net them a permanent, faithful, high sex relationship with a woman who treats them well.
There is no such thing. If you are singing and dancing for a woman, even if your song and dance is a Red-Pill-style song and dance, you are still trapped in a blue pill mentality.
Women do not engage in monogamy. They engage in serial monogamy. They are always on the market. Even if they have a boyfriend or a husband. They are always open to the possibility of trading up. If you lose your job, become seriously ill or injured, get fat, start acting needy, or become a big enough loser in some other way, or if a man who’s more awesome than you on every front makes a move on your woman, or if both of these things happen, your girlfriend is not going to stay with you forever and ignore all other opportunities simply because you happened to come along first and you’re kinda sorta good enough.
You cannot earn a woman’s true and undying love by being alpha enough. All that alpha behaviors do is generate sexual attraction. No more, no less.
However, there is a place for LTRs in your toolbox, as one of many tools you may use in the pursuit of sex. You simply have to engage in LTRs in the same way that women do. Say the words if a woman won’t fuck you without you saying them first. Hell, even stay with her as long as the sex keeps coming with minimal demands on your time and resources. But leave as soon as that situation changes. She’d leave you the second she’s not getting what she wants, so why the hell would you stay if you're not?
And if you come across a better opportunity, cheat. Or dump her ass. She’s still on the market, cultivating other prospects. You should be as well.
LTRs are a valid tool in your sexual strategy arsenal, but should be used appropriately. If you are engaging women in exclusive relationships with the illusion that some combination of the right behaviors with the right kind of woman will get you a permanent, faithful, high sex relationship with a woman who will treat you well, you’re making the same mistake that you did before you found The Red Pill. Just with the addition that you're also being an asshole.
You definitely need something more in your life besides banging girls. But that something more is not a relationship. Relationships are a tool, not a goal.
Find this and other content at The Red Pill's off-reddit site. Here's a link.
MattyAnon Admin 7y ago
Absolutely this. Women go out in short skirts and fully made up - often even more so when they have a boyfriend than when they don't.
They get offers, they flirt, they see what else is out there. Relentlessly. They accumulate offers. They know where they stand in the market. They know how to get it. They have a plan B lined up at all times. Seriously, that plan B is waiting in the wings ready to go. If he ever stops being a willing plan B (men make this obvious, women even tell them "Welll.... I can't this weeekkkkkk.... butttttttttt wink wink")... if he ever stops that chasing and wises up, she'll find another option.
I'm seeing a woman at the moment, in fact I'm her plan B while her boyfriend is away. (Hey man if you're reading this - don't be bitter, I'm just keeping her warm for you so she doesn't cheat haha ;) ) AND .... She's got a plan C if things with me fall through before her (probably faithful) boyfriend is back. Seriously, it's sick if you're on the wrong end of this dynamic.
So while the guy is being faithful (and out of practice), she's doing 9/10 of the work of trading up even if she's not actively cheating. When the end comes, she branch swings and the guy is rusty as all hell and bewildered trying to reenter the dating market. She encouraged him to grow soft and nice, and got used as a stepping stone as a result. She jumps to the next stone and the guy goes under the water.
Don't be this guy... it's like Archwinger says.... even if you're not fucking other women, you need to be 9/10 of the way to doing so. For her this means going outside. For you this means approaching, inviting-out, socialising and sexually escalating with women. Anything less and you're not 9/10 the way to a new women but 5/10 the way to a new woman. Maybe less.
I've got friends who go out "to practice" with women. And they do nothing besides nice-guy talking. They pretend they're practising but they are taking none of the well calibrated sexually-escalating risks that are necessary to get her in the sack.
TheReformist94 7y ago
Well said. agree 100%. We all know that woman having sex outside of an LTR is worse than a man doing the same thing. Women cheat emotionally,men physically, and many times for us itndoesnt mean anything.
To be 9/10ths of the way,to make it even to a woman's flirting, I'd say you have to go as far as making out or getting a bj.
[deleted] 7y ago
very true, women don't test you unless they have plan B and C ready
sharp7 7y ago
Meh, you could just deal with shit after the breakup. The whole point of an LTR is so you can focus on things that aren't chasing women. I rather for example date a chick for a year, while focusing on career, then when the inevitable breakup comes, just go back out there. Sure I'll be rusty, but its like riding a bike.
Plus being single is fucking great.
MattyAnon Admin 7y ago
You can't though. You're almost certainly out of practice, which means that while she just goes out and accepts the next offer she gets, you've got to practice and get used to escalating and facing rejection again. It takes time, and you've got to do that through the difficulty of the breakup. It takes most men months to get the hang of dating again. Takes women about 24 hours.
Right...
Personally I find the hassle of dealing with a LTR is worse than the hassle of chasing women. Sex is a constant battleground of her sexual expectations (entirely selfish) or her sexual passive aggression. Much easier to see a few women and (in a subtle way) play them off against each other. Always having a "if not you then someone else" attitude makes the sex wayyyyyyyyyyyyy better, and I never need to worry about her pulling that passive aggressive shit against me.
marplaneit 7y ago
I don't know, I love having fuck bodies for long terms. I have one, one I been fucking for 2 years, and another one for more than 6 months. I hate going through the hassle of trying to fuck nice woman, and I don't like fucking easy used up slut.
sharp7 7y ago
Meh, I don't mind having no sex for long periods of time. Probably because I lost my virginity late, instead of at 14 or whatever the avg age for guys is now.
So for me being single for 4 months is easy. Hell its been 3 years right now for me. I broke up with her because moving, so maybe that's why I didn't mind it much, and I just have so much other stuff to do. It was worse before I started noFap though. When you fap its like you are reminding yourself you don't have a real girl and its incredibly depressing.
Seoul_Brother 7y ago
I think the mistake here is trying to compare the post break up experiences between yourself and a woman, when we should really be independent of what she does afterwards (because AWALT). First and fatal mistake post breakup is to focus on her life and who she's fucking instead of cultivating yourself. Talking to women is pretty much like riding a bicycle or driving a car after you haven't for a long time (I agree with u/sharp7). First Tinder date I had after my most recent ex was a girl who paid for everything, played beer pong, made out/ fingered her in a karaoke room, and took me back to her apartment to fuck multiple times that night and the morning after. I think it's about mentality. I was done with my ex and had no strong feelings toward her anymore, so talking to other girls came naturally.
I think the prime focus during your tenure in LTRs is to constantly be improving yourself by hitting the gym, not faltering on your own schedules, and developing your career (otherwise the BP black hole will eventually suck you in and she'll think about swinging branches). I don't think you would get out of practice if you have consistently been talking to women before you met your LTR/ if you are just oozing with confidence outside of your own relationship (which would be built from your foundations: lifting, self improvement, having your own life/ RP adoption). I still talk to female friends and coworkers and joke around, and go out with my own friends outside of my relationship. Literally had a female coworker tell me last month that she knows if we were both single, we would have amazing sex and I didn't disagree (I just STFU since I am not the type to cheat). That coworker alone has taught me a lot about how women operate post-breakup (says she still loves her ex but slept with two guys already and semi solicited me for sex). I still stand by my own morals and choose not to cheat when there have been plenty of opportunities to do so since I started dating her.
Once you start letting go of things because you think you have access to consistent sex with an LTR is when your LTR notices your weakness and exploits it through massive shit tests that you continue to fail until one day, you find yourself fat from eating out with her all the time, penniless from paying for all her shit, and sexless from her making up excuses to not fuck you since you've essentially become an outcome dependent BP cuck to her whim. The BP black hole is real, and anyone in TRP who's been in an LTR/ has been cheated on knows exactly what that feels like.
So far LTR is great. My sexual experiences far surpasses her experiences (she hasn't slept around too much/ mostly had boring predictable sex before me), so she's scrambling to try and keep up/ learn new things to impress me (bringing out her inner slut). I haven't been rejected for any of my advances from my LTR in the 6 months we've been seeing each other, and I think it has more to do with the fact that I come from place of authority/experience.
I remember several times where my LTR tried to shit test me, like when she took me to a baby shower where I knew nobody and she left me to my own devices while talking to her friends. I immediately started chatting up people and within 15 minutes, I had a group of girls I was joking around with and capturing their attention. She came into the conversation shortly after she noticed and said "wow aren't you the social butterfly talking to all those girls?"
I do find that there are experiences that you as a single man can experience, but there are also a plethora of different situations and experiences you can face in relationships that being single would never offer you. I never would have gone to a baby shower had I been single. That shit's boring as fuck, but it was a new experience to tackle and I figured out how to get the attention of the women there. I also like shit tests. After reading on what they were a couple years ago and failing to see them with my most recent ex, I was able to practice seeing them and passing them throughout my time single. Now that I'm in an LTR, it's even more prevalent and I sometimes look forward to when she shit tests me just so I can throw the door in her face with behaviors/ an answer she doesn't expect.
There is also a stark difference I've noticed between the guys that my LTR's friends date and I. They are reserved and quiet. They don't go out on the dance floor when we all go out. They ask their girlfriends for permission to do things. They always say "sorry". Some of her friends have called me selfish and have urged my LTR to break up with me, and when she told me about this, I just shrugged it off and told her "We'll see where this relationship goes, and if it doesn't work. It doesn't work." I personally think they don't want their friend to have a relationship with me since theirs are so predictable, subservient and boring and they're jealous at how different I am compared to their partners. I'm not afraid of something ending thanks to TRP. An LTR should be a complement to your happiness, not the source. And if it ends? Talking game and passing shit tests are easy to pick back up if you are RP and haven't allowed yourself to fall into the BP shit hole. Definitely like riding a bike.
Sidenote: I always hated the term "chasing women." It implies we are the ones that are trying to catch them. Subtle nuances in language lol.
MattyAnon Admin 7y ago
A LTR can be great for up to three years. After that she loses attraction, sex slows drastically, and there is ever increasing pressure to marry her and legally commit to being a beta.
The first year or two can be great. The temptation is to think "it didn't work out because she's not the right one". The reality is that it doesn't work out long term unless the man is prepared to make drastic sacrifices to his quality of life to serve her needs.
Yeah, what the fuck is it with that shit? Every guy I know requires permission to do things. They buy into it, and I know how controlling women get. They've tried it with me. "You can't go out now". I don't even answer them as I'm closing the door behind me.
Yeah, totally agree with this. Fact is though, they do need a modicum of interest shown in them before they'll allow themselves to be fully attracted. That's the case with me and my looks anyway.
Thing is with you... you have New Relationship Energy with a new woman. So you believe women are just great and relationships are just wonderful if you do them right. Men in new relationships are always sooooooooo positive about women. "Just apply a little dread and women and relationships are awesome!". No they aren't, they really aren't. You're just enjoying the honeymoon period before the demands and the drama starts.
I've been round this loop so many times that I'm sceptical and bored of the whole process. Sex is a psychological need, but beyond that I can't see the point. Women don't offer me anything, so my response is to offer them the absolute minimum I can get away with and still have sex.
The thing that maximises this strategy of course is not offering any form of commitment whatsoever. I don't even commit to going on another date with her if/until it happens. This maintains attraction and drives them crazy and it's actually very hard for me to do, but it's the only way I've found to run things where she will put in even a tiny shred of effort. And by tiny shred of effort, I mean a text saying "hey" to test the waters to see if the conversation will escalate into a date. Nothing more than that is offered, no more effort than that is made.
I'd honestly prefer to do an awful lot more for women I see. I'd prefer to put more effort in. I'd prefer to do more, commit more, be there for them, help them, and so on. But whenever I try that it just flips her into "beta / sex denying / passive / entitled" mode, so I don't do it anymore. So now I give nothing at all, and they do very little. It's not the ideal for me, but it's better than the one sided shit I had before.
Seoul_Brother 7y ago
Haven't reached three years, but I know about how honeymoon phase works. I don't believe women are "just great" and completely positive about it either. Been in the BP blackhole stage, cheated on and back to know AWALT and eventually, even the best girls turn bad. Been in multiple relationships and had the epiphany not long ago that the more you give into shit tests and demands, the more of a joke you become to your LTR (and thus the branch swinging). However, that in its self is a challenge and I like it. It's like a game: you see how long you go with someone until you get bored of them, or until you become another BP provider. The difference and the key to not losing is realizing what being a BP cuck really means.
This girl cooks, brings food, fucks good, makes genuine effort and I offer a little bit of my life and share in some things with her and it's good. I do most if not all things for me, but she brings some joy into my life as a person so I don't mind being in a relationship with her. I live in NYC and hypergamy literally exists everywhere. "Open relationships" rampant, girls trading up like they would trade stocks in Wall St., and me in the middle of it. This girl isn't any exception, but she has definitely been the most traditional. She also isn't in denial like today's feminazis and knows the separate roles men and women take in a relationship. So I'm riding it out because she has not fit the mold of a typical girl I've run across from in my experiences.
I feel like you went off on one extreme, while I'm towing the line between RP principles being "woke" as those SJWs call it, while I'm still about to find some joy from "the process."
sharp7 7y ago
Interesting. Whenever I'm in an LTR I always know its going to be temporary so I just never get black-holed. My LTRs only last a few months anyway. But I can see how others reading this post could really benefit from it, or if I ever decide to do an LTR that's longer.
Seoul_Brother 7y ago
I used to be very BP in relationships before my last ex (who prompted me to start reading TRP). Post RP, there may have been hiccups here and there for sure, but I haven't gone backwards since.
I outgrew my small shirts and got to weird stage in clothing where I'm between an American small and medium from lifting (which sucks and I have to most things tailored); but I'm stronger, bigger, more diligent, and have a much better go-getter attitude about me that did not exist in BP stage with my last ex.
Historically while I was single, I was able to pull ONS and enjoyed my time sleeping around, but there definitely was a disconnect between single me and the me that was in relationships. Single me gave no fucks and spit game like no other. Relationship me was beaten down and did everything the girlfriend wanted to do. After my ex girlfriend cheated on me (and I fucking deserved every bit of it), I started to realize the disconnect between how I successfully landed ONS and initial relationships (gave away my commitment) vs. how I eventually acted once I got into the relationship (BP, catering to all their needs, sacrificing my time/money/energy to trying to make the girlfriend happy, believed in "true love."). It finally connected when I started reading TRP (especially The Rational Male). I realized I was stifling my unknowingly RP college self to fit into the needs of some woman because I thought she was the source of my happiness. That grave mistake cost me a lot of time, money, and energy. Now I realize that this was due to classical BP conditioning and that it's basically an act of falling on my own sword for no good reason.
Current LTR does what I want to do and is fairly submissive. She loves the banter and I love to dish it right back out. She shit tests, and I pass that shit. She doesn't dare threaten to leave or do anything to test further because she knows I can let her go whenever (she's seen me strike up conversation with more attractive women and stand my ground against her guy friends). I finally knew what they meant when they said a woman should complement a man's happiness, not be the primary source.
sharp7 7y ago
I was never really BP since I found the manosphere at like 16-17. And so I was already RP by my first kiss. I quickly got to the "jaded" phase though. It all feels so empty sigh. I think its just because life is so easy now, nothing you do really matters. Even if you are unemployed you'll probably survive fine as a homeless person. Homeless people even somehow have kids and shit ffs.
Life is too easy, nothing matters. So fuck whoever. There shit-tests are nonsense and assume life actually requires XYZ.
SkorchZang 7y ago
If women only cheated and disrespected on their men when someone objectively better came along, it would be poetic justice. That beautiful and logical world would instantly make a lot of sense to us, all of our hearts would upswell with secret pride for womankind and happiness would reign supreme on Earth.
But life stops us mid-stroke there, "not so fast". Fact is, a lot of the time women are gonna go and cheat on me with a far worse loser than me, her original all-wonderful and all-cuddly BF. Objectively and indisputably far worse even according to righteous RP metrics, yet off sweetie goes. Hypergamy doesn't care, the giny tingles don't care. She doesn't have to make sense, she just feeeeeels it, and boom. AWALT.
In other words, it's a natural inclination they all have to be fundamentally disloyal and untrustworthy in a way similar to how children are untrustworthy, no rhyme or reason required. "Oops I did it again!!"
The only way to deal with it as the average man is to make women scared of cheating on the whole: her rep in her social circle will be ruined, she'll lose her cushy place, not have food on the table for the kids etc.etc. All of these "safeguards" have been systematically dismantled and mostly made illegal in recent years, in order to "liberate" women from the men. Never mind that it makes the women even more miserable than the men, to be liberated from men, but it is what it is.
Now these armchair philosopher types want to come tell you about LTRs, and how "not all women are like that, keep looking you'll find The One eventually". It's laughable, the whole barn has already burned down to the foundation and they're all about worrying whether that new paint is gonna chip like last time or not.
I'm in an LTR at the moment and it is non-exclusive for me (I fuck other women), but exclusive for her (she "doesn't even" because that's how in love she supposedly is). This type of unequal relationshit arrangement is realistic with RP tools. It is this way because SHE wants it this way, it's exciting FOR HER to be this much in love. I just made sure of that as the relationshit was evolving, giving it a little steer here and there. I don't know where PurplePill or whatever people find women who do not want relationship, they all want it given some time. Thanks to TRP you realize that just because she wants something doesn't mean she gets it, or even should get it. Maybe it's better for her to be in a permanent state of excited lovey-dovey limbo, that way it's a fun ride all the way to the end. LTR or not, we know without any special bitterness that it always ends.
[deleted] 7y ago
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sharp7 7y ago
I laughed.
I agree to the point of your post, at the end of the day nothing is guaranteed, and if you're a real man you'll take the risk of "If I get sick/fuckup/she runs into a better dude" and just deal.
HS-Thompson 7y ago
EXACTLY.
That's the number one problem with the whole plate spinning thing. It just burns up a lot of time that could be better spent moving your life forward. Honestly 95% of the reason I've slowed down on trying to meet new women is that I'm fucking sick of drinking alcohol on weeknights, I'd rather keep my head in the game of business and/or the gym, or hobbies, or literally anything. Getting to know you conversation bores me to tears these days.
Also when you're over a certain age it makes a lot more sense socially to have one woman you can bring out to charity events, plan weekends away with other couples, and take to weddings and so on. Sure you can bring a 23 year old airhead hottie with you, and I have, and it's kind of fun, but it can be pretty distracting and isn't as conducive to making the kinds of social/business connections that can get you where you want to go.
Having a relatively stable woman who you can somewhat depend on to be a reliable date, give up reliable sex, and not get in the way of your life goals, is pretty handy. Sure, nothing lasts forever, but so what, just live your life in the present moment and that's a non issue.
marplaneit 7y ago
This, so much this. I have long term fuck bodies though. They are hard to get, as most plates end up wanting and up-grade. The key is to behave like a player and careless so she knows you will be a bad boyfriend, and also being nice ONLY when you meet so she doesn't feel like a slut after that.
Also, I prefer fucking 100 times an 8, than fucking 100 girls with an avg of 6.
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2dogsandpizza 7y ago
Great post. I remember when posts like this would get thousands of upvotes but recently this calibre of post will only get a few hundred. What gives?
PawnToKing 7y ago
This is a fantastic, fresh view on red pill LTRs. Especially the part about simply being as ruthless as a woman and being okay trading.
IN turn, that shows us that a lot of the things TRP claims to be one sided female behaviors, are not necessarily one sided female behaviors. Men can be hypergamous. And we've all encountered the male hamster.
TheSigmaMonster 7y ago
Another option that I don't see explored much in the TRP sub-reddits is multiple LTRs, but yeah I know the post you're referring to and lololol fuck
[deleted] 7y ago
Not yours, just your turn. Women are pragmatists, posing as romantics, and men are the oppositte.
It's just that, strategy. Like arch already posted, she should be priority #7
[deleted] 7y ago
It's more than that stone. As men, we have to be consciously proactive in the pursuit and success of our sexual strategy.
Women are passive and do so instinctually.
TRPforlife 7y ago
I think a huge portion of TRP men are romantics, and that's why they are unsatisfied. Not all men are romantics of course.
Seoul_Brother 7y ago
It's why we all came here at one point or another.
Our romantic sides didn't understand the dynamic and kept falling into BP traps before we even knew what being BP even meant.
SinisterSwindler 7y ago
a huge portion of trp were romantics. TRP killed the romance in me 2 years ago, best damn change of my life.
RememberingAlpha 7y ago
True story, unicorns exist. They're called unicorns because most will go a lifetime without seeing one.
Fedor_Gavnyukov 7y ago
very well said. i've noticed this over the last decade and half myself. women are always on the market. no ifs or buts. it just is. even the ones that say they'll never cheat or have never cheated, will have no back thoughts about fucking someone else if the tingles happen. be like them. say what they want to hear, do as you please. is it cold? yes. but yolo.
ecosci 7y ago
Yea having options is always good but she will cheat or get bored 2-5yrs in, thats the deal the only way she stays after that is because of comfort and lack of better options no (A) (B) or (C) plan will save your ass from female nature so be the selfish asshole women love it put the tools back in the shed bro.
PM_BOOBS_FOR_PUPPIES 7y ago
Cheat, bored...or demand the ring.
Been there more than once..."ring or I'm gone". Never once have I regretted saying goodbye as I keep dating/LTRing girls the same age while I'm the one getting older. ;)
AnimaPura 7y ago
As you present the concept of LTR in this post, I think you are using hypergamy as your sexual strategy, wich by any means isn't wrong at all, but as a man you can make use of the advantages of hypergamous behavior (fucking multiple partners) without the downsides of LTRs. Or maybe I'm just fucking stupid.
Archwinger Endorsed Contributor 7y ago
A woman's hypergamy never really serves you. However, you can use it by being hot and demonstrating status and social aptitude. When you seem like a better option than her current man (or current options if she doesn't have a current man), she'll fuck you. But tomorrow, she'll fuck someone else if he looks like a better option than you. Or just for the hell of it if there's no chance you'll catch her and she has something to gain from cultivating that other option.
redisthecoldestcolor 7y ago
You misunderstood him - he was pointing out that you are hypergamous and questioning the value of the LTR as a tool for sexual conquest when there are much better tools out there.
I tend to agree. If your primary goal is sex, then a LTR is a bad place to be.
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NeoreactionSafe 7y ago
We all need not conform to a single vision of having a "positive identity".
Family requires a different set of skills than fucking around when you are young and free spirited.
We have the flairs:
Red Pill Married
...because some folks want their Alpha sperm to create actual offspring.
If this wasn't the case then those flairs should be removed.
Archwinger Endorsed Contributor 7y ago
There's definitely a place for relationships, even marriage, in the realm of sexual strategy.
But we need to dispel the myth that there's this magical set of behaviors you can undertake, that when combined with the right kind of woman, result in a great relationship. That's a blue pill fantasy.
let_terror_reign 7y ago
No, to paraphrase what Ben Taleb says in Antifragile - 95% of shit that happens to you isn't in your hands. But every so often life will give you that perfect set up, and you need to be in a position to take it and slam dunk that bitch home with both hands. And for that, you need to be working. You need to be ready, and on top of your game.
To take those opportunities, you need to be working so that if/when they do arrive, you have the wherewithal not only to recognize them but to use them.
Better have and not need, than need and not have. ANYTHING.
Maybe that chick will meet most of your ltr criteria provided you can sit her the fuck down and set down some boundaries. But to get her in shape like that, you need to be good enough to do it.
NeoreactionSafe 7y ago
In the Red Pill we operate with the masculine polarity pattern:
Men love women, women love children, children love puppies.
In the Blue Pill it's reversed:
Women cuckold betas and fuck Chads.
A Red Pill LTR or Marriage simply means the female accepts the masculine-to-feminine dynamic. If the woman does not freely choose to be submissive then it can't qualify as Red Pill.
That's the difference... one has masculinity, the other is a role reversal.
whatsthisgarg 7y ago
It's all true, and if what Arch says bums you out, then know that you have a ways to go. If a relationship strikes you as a daunting task, maybe you're not ready.
As I read another comment in response to some clown who thought he had it all figured out (and reference to his fiance, LOL), if you think your current attractive qualities are going to generate permanent and continuous attraction, then you don't understand women and you don't understand TRP.
I have been married for a long damn time to an awesome chick, but it's all still true. I've been reading TRP for about 2 years, and I've been seeing in retrospect how it has described everything that previously mystified me about this relationship.
I got depressed, she got distant; what? I thought she loved me? I pulled my head out of my ass and got happy again, now here she is sucking and fucking me like there's no tomorrow.
A work situation arose and I got out of shape, now all of a sudden she pulls away when I touch her and only wants to get fucked when she's ovulating; but, she said some shit about "for better or worse"? Got ripped again (for me, not for her) and she's all over me.
Right now, I feel like I am married to a marionette, I've got all the strings and I can make her do anything I want. But I know if I get old and my dick stops working, no matter what she says or what values she claims to have, she's going to turn her back on me. I just can't let that bother me.
10211799107 7y ago
I believe some men are in those situations because they still make women their goals. Changing FOR women. They haven't experienced the deep feeling of fulfillment of self improving and becoming the best versions of themselves.
Exactly. I'm in an LTR and quite happy. She knows I'll leave if she gets fat, disrespectful or sex dries up. I'm lucky enough to have a good combination of traits to give her comfort (B) and also make her understand I can leave when I want (A), in context. I flirt, tease and am open with other women and don't apologize. She loves the sex so it's sometimes hard to reject her to jolt a bit of rejection in there since I like sex a lot. But I occasionally do it.
This is where guys will disagree with me, but it's what works for me
One thing most guys frown upon is keeping a few in the kitty. I have an out of state fling for the last 2yrs, every couple months when I travel we meet up. Safety is important if you choose to do this you have to be careful. I'm not on social media anymore, have no putlic profiles of me or the LTR and this girl seems to love it. It's all hook up and nothing more. There are risks involved so know if you choose to do this. I have mine down pretty good. I'm not against emotions, I do love my LTR, but I'm also exercising objectivity a couple a times a month to understand it's only temporary in the grand scheme of things. This set up is what keeps me happy, because any man sometimes wants a different cereal just to get a different taste once in a while.
If it falls in my lap I'm not against it, but I don't go out looking for it on tinder and those apps.
A lot of guys try to compartmentalize TRP. This rule over that rule, you're not alpha here or there. It's all context based. The toolbox is huge, use what you want to improve your life. You like marriage, good, good luck. You like to spin plates, good, do it. I like steady supply sex and the occasional hook up when it falls in my lap. That's me, so do you.
[deleted] 7y ago
You love her like I love my car.
10211799107 7y ago
Your car is temporary, just like any girl. Just your turn.
HumanSockPuppet 7y ago
/u/Archwinger provides an important insight here, so newbies take heed.
You must be constantly judging a bitch's contribution to your life. If she ever fails in her duties, you must discard her in favour of one who will. To keep her in spite of her disrespect for your time is to implicitly accept her lower valuation of you.
Read my Bitch Management Guide for more information on how to properly filter, promote, and discard bitches.
[deleted] 7y ago
Todays tyrannical courts make this LTR strategy very tricky if one has children that he doesnt want to Next!!
Still, as a starting point of where RP thinking fits into LTRs... this is quite good
BlackJ1 7y ago
As always a great read, however this seems like another subject that has just been beaten down to the ground by the community. There have been so many posts about what is redpill and what is not redpill and honestly it's just turning into a "no true scotsman" fallacy:
TheRedPill is a toolbox, use it as you see fit. Set a goal, and do things conducive to that goal. You either support the goal or you don't.
Archwinger Endorsed Contributor 7y ago
Agreed. People worry too much about whether X is or is not "real Red Pill", instead of asking the real question: How can I use X as part of my sexual strategy?
Over time, TRP has become this bizarre internet cult where a bunch of angry young men with poor social skills click subscribe and read furiously for a list of rules and an ordered outline of activities they need to undertake to get laid. They're more concerned about what the "community" that they're trying to be a part of thinks about a particular tool than with figuring out how to use it most effectively and contributing their independent thoughts on the matter.
It doesn't matter whether entering into a committed relationship with a woman is "real Red Pill" or not. What matters is whether or not this is an effective sexual strategy, under what circumstances, and how you can go about it to get the most sex for the least time and resources.
I'm not the be all and end all of "how to relationship, the Red Pill way", just some dude with an opinion regarding how relationships can be used as a particular tool to get laid. Hopefully, other people have other opinions (not rules regarding what is and isn't Red Pill, but actual opinions and experiences) regarding how to use this or other related tools to get laid. You know, discussion on sexual strategy.
BlackJ1 7y ago
You are correct. The real question really is how one can use X as part of my sexual strategy.
However it seems a lot of men here claim that if one "really" or "truly" understands theredpill, they would not go for a LTR or marriage unless they don't understand it fully.
I've got a question for you Archwinger.
Is it impossible for a man to have a LONG TERM(notice how I replaced permanent. Nothing is ever permanent), faithful, high sex relationship with a woman who treats us well?
Archwinger Endorsed Contributor 7y ago
It's a roll of the dice. The longer you're with a woman, the harder you have to work to remain her best option. Comfort breeds contempt.
Her other options are also a factor. If she's being hit on, hard, by a man she perceives as better than you (not necessarily actually better, just someone she feels might be better since you're losing points for being such a comfortable long-term option), the shit tests will intensify, the sex will diminish, and you'll have to really smack her back in line.
It's just not a good use of your time and energy. Early on, in the honeymoon phase, relationships are easier than going out and doing the work to meet new girls and maintain plates, but the longer the relationship drags on, the more it takes out of you and the less you get back. You have to cut your losses at that point instead of digging in deeper and trying to fix the relationship.
whatsthisgarg 7y ago
You are making me feel like a real badass right now. I've been with my woman for about 25 years, and I am actually not putting ANY work at all into the relationship and getting EVERYTHING I want from her. In fact, when I was trying to make her happy, we were both less happy. All I have to do now is stay hot and she is motivated to stay hot herself.
Okay, that's what it is. I don't make her comfortable. In fact I am unafraid to keep her agitated, so she is in a near constant state of arousal.
I don't know why you guys are making it sound so dismal. You've got the whole arsenal of TRP at your command, and your woman is still a woman.
LewisCross 7y ago
Yes, but the longer you're with a woman, the older she gets, and the lower her SMV gets. As she ages, the only thing she really has to offer another man is sexual access. So if you've been with a woman 15 years since she was 25; she's now 40. Unless she's really taken good care of herself, her SMV has taken a dive. Even if she has taken care of herself, her SMV isn't what it was 15 years before. So the work you have to do is to keep her just a bit off balance; keep her slightly uncomfortable. Don't care so much about keeping her comfortable and happy.
Roaring40sUK 7y ago
But what you are forgetting, is that, the value she puts on herself, is usually higher than it really is, and all it takes is one thirsty guy who talk the talk and she is off.. or at least making your life hell.. been there..
FieldLine 7y ago
This is the hardest part for me to digest. It's as if you've gotten burned so many times that you're assuming that all women are like that, so you're going to leave her before she leaves you. Hurt her out of fear of being hurt, even though you don't know that she is on that page.
Actually, it's not as if you are saying that - it is exactly what you are saying, and that is what TRP is all about - male power at the expense of women.
It's just hard for me to relate, since, for better or worse, women haven't really been all that bad to me. Sure, I've been more successful with women than I was before I found this subreddit, but that's more of a result of getting my priorities in order than anything else. I'm not jaded to the point where I feel comfortable putting my sexual interactions in such callous terms: "dump her before she dumps you because that's what she would do, given the opportunity".
You make good points. It's certainly something to think about. I'm just not sure I have enough experience to say if I agree or not.
MattyAnon Admin 7y ago
Say after me: ALL WOMEN ARE LIKE THAT. No exceptions.
Male power specifically for men. Women benefit too, but yes mostly we care about men. Women have taken too much for too long. They no longer deserve our consideration. Yes All Women.
Ever tried being exclusive to one for more than five years? If not, you have absolutely no idea what they can do.
This is not what was said. What was actually said was more like "trade up if the opportunity presents itself, she'd do the same". And there is no doubt she would. In a heartbeat. Callously and without a second's thought.
In fact her only thought would be "will he stick around". Given significant pushing and promises by a higher value man, she'll cheat and ultimately try to keep both guys. Then if the new guy pushes, she'll ditch the previous one. It's what they do, it's just that simple.
Like you, I've actually not been on the receiving end of it much - but only because they can't find better than me :)
10211799107 7y ago
Don't take everything at face value. it's what he writes, but use your own brain to think about it. Pesonally, if she gets flubby and gains 10lbs (won't be too noticable since mine is tall), I'll comment and she needs to work on it. Life happens, same with me. I get sick or surgery, gains a few, get off my ass and work on it when I'm healed. If it gets out of hand, then get out if she turns entitled and gets fatter. If she disrespects you in public, depends on the context. Sometimes it could be that they're unaware and will apologize immediately when you put them in their place.
It's not cookie cutter this or that. They're women, but also human. As long as she knows where you stand.
CinematicRacer14 7y ago
Don't worry, enough women will shit on you soon.
Archwinger Endorsed Contributor 7y ago
All women are like that.
Note that "like that" means that all women approach or approximate that. Not that all women are exactly that or that all women are identical.
You also have to consider, what is "that"? All women are like what?
It's really not that strange or offensive when you think about it. "That" is disrespecting, leaving, or cheating on a lesser man for a greater man.
If you are a loser, or if a woman has an opportunity with a man who's better than you are, the woman is going to leave you, cheat on you, treat you disrespectfully, or some combination of those three things. She's not going to stay with you, stay faithful to you, and remain a pleasant, respectful sex dispenser simply because you came along first. Nor should you expect that of anybody. That would be stupid.
All women will one or more of leave, cheat, or disrespect you if you're a loser and/or she has an opportunity with someone better.
That's not really a contestable statement. Some women have a different threshold for loser-dom, and some women will just leave, not cheat, or just cheat, not leave, but at that point, we're discussing the differences between strawberry and vanilla ice cream.
voomer53 7y ago
Maybe 10% of men have the same or similar multiple relationship options as 90% of women...it's just hard for the rest of us to get our heads around that, to visualize what that would be like day-to-day. How could you ever be happy with just one option with so many available to you? Like a kid in a candy store... who never grows up.
FieldLine 7y ago
I wasn't offended by it, nor did I think it was strange. I'm just questioning the veracity of the statement:
You are correct: this is the definition of "that" in AWALT. The question remains, are all women like "that"? You claim yes, definitively. I'm not as sure, possibly blinded by naivety and/or an unwillingness to accept a hard truth. Maybe getting a personal wakeup call is just part of the process, which you obviously feel will inevitably happen should I continue on my current trajectory. Saying that it's "not really a contestable statement" assumes a pretty bleak view of people in general, regardless of sex.
Then again, what you write in your last paragraph trivializes your whole point. Now any woman who does't fit under your umbrella of "that" simply "has a different threshold", but really she is "like that".
LewisCross 7y ago
I like to put it this way. It's easy to remember and is always true.
All women are like that.
All women have it in them to act "like that".
All women have acted "like that" at some point in their lives.
Most women are like that some of the time.
Some women are like that all the time.
All women have it in them to act disrespectfully, cheat, and/or leave.
At a minimum, if you're a loser and/or she has an opportunity with a better man, she will act disrespectfully to you. She might stay with you, but she'll treat you like shit, refuse to fuck you, belittle you in front of others, and make your life a living hell.
She might not cheat on you or leave you, but she will make you wish she had. She will be miserable because she's with a man she thinks is a loser, she isn't attracted to him, and she cannot or will not leave him for whatever reason. So because of that, she will be miserable, she will make everyone around her miserable, she will treat him like shit, and generally make his life a living hell.
beau-dhi 7y ago
AWALT is only "bleak" because you haven't truly reached acceptance yet (the end of DABDA).
Once you truly accept this, it will not invoke any negative emotions. It just is.
Archwinger Endorsed Contributor 7y ago
Everyone cites a counter-example:
"Look at Jane. She's never cheated on anybody in her entire life, so all women aren't like that!"
Well, no, but she was a royal bitch to her loser boyfriend and eventually dumped him.
"Look at Sally! She stayed with John for two years after the accident that cost him his job."
Yeah, but Sally treated him like shit and cheated on him.
"Look at Becky! She and Jim have been married for 8 years even though Jim put on weight and lost his job six months ago!"
Yeah, but Becky's gained about 50 pounds since they got married and couldn't land another decent man anyway. And she treats Jim like shit and never fucks him, but claims it's all due to her own body insecurity, which Jim eats up because that way he doesn't have to admit that he's a loser.
All women are like that, even though not all women are identically that.
[deleted] 7y ago
been coming to this conclusion. So many in PPD seem hell bent on disagreeing with RP ideas. I wonder if it's because they believe it's inaccurate, or that it hits too close to home.
LewisCross 7y ago
Both. They really do believe it is inaccurate. It's because of one or more of the following:
--they and their family/friends have never been through a bad breakup or divorce
--they got really really lucky
--they found someone in their early 20s and made it work
--they are "naturals" who never really had to learn anything about intersexual relationships; it came naturally to them, and they also had good role models who taught them accurately about men, women, sex, dating and relationships.
It also hits close to home because they know one or two women who are like that. But those women are explained away as outliers. They are the "rare" women who are slutty, stupid, broken, damaged, or crazy; and coincidentally to Blues, they are the women who TRPers always seem to find.
[deleted]
kevin32 7y ago
You should write an essay or two here on TRP. I'd like to see more of your perspective on things.
FieldLine 7y ago
One could argue that putting up with occasional disrespect from your wife might be worth the fulfillment of having a family.
Obviously this doesn't apply to a woman who will leave or cheat on you, but it's your job to filter that out when finding one worth keeping around.
whatsthisgarg 7y ago
This is a perfectly reasonable approach, but you're giving up way too early here. Ask yourself what reason your future wife would have to disrespect you. Then take pains to avoid that situation.
Personally, I was amazed at how easy it was to garner disrespect from my wife, but also how easy it was to reverse that. A few years ago, I got out of shape, not even fat, just a gut. The disrespect was fierce and shocking. I actually couldn't believe it was just because I got a gut, but (after I got back in shape) I eliminated all other causes. It was that simple.
I have a great fund of personal examples that have absolutely convinced me of the wisdom of TRP and AWALT. Also, I haven't experienced even the slightest hint of disrespect in years.
[deleted] 7y ago
in a family, the children will feel when then wife disrespects the husband.
It leaves a very poor example of parenthood and is definitely not the kind of family you would want in your life.
Archwinger Endorsed Contributor 7y ago
That leads to the question, what makes your wife special? If this is the only woman on Earth who will marry and have a family with you, then you're a loser, and she's right to treat you with disrespect. AWALT.
If you have 50 women begging to be your wife, the one you pick knows she's on the hook to be divorced at any given moment in exchange for one of the other 49. Of course, if you have 50 women competing for your dick, what do you need a wife for?
FieldLine 7y ago
Having a wife isn't mutually exclusive with the ability to get laid elsewhere. And there doesn't have to be anything especially unique about your woman to have a successful marriage and raise a family.
If my goal was to have sex and only to have sex then getting married would be retarded. There's no reason to throw in my chips with one particular woman, especially now that we've established that she isn't unique or special.
The truth is, sex is great and all, but that's not what guys want; you can make yourself orgasm better than any woman ever can.
No, most guys in TRP and everywhere else want intimacy and the validation of "scoring" (which are both valid desires). But you can be intimate with your wife, and you can score elsewhere in your life. If the sole focus of your life is scoring with women, well, by your own admission that's pretty sad.
Instead of teaching guys how to deal with the responsibility of having a family and putting up with a wife who sometimes acts up, we tell the men here that "one might argue that it's a good thing to emotionally numb yourself to women."
What makes my wife worth keeping around is the fact that she is the mother of my children. I can put up with her shit once in a while if that means I get to have a family.
[deleted] 7y ago
Christ, you're delusional. 95 percent of women can and do blow out crotch fruit. It doesn't make her special.
[deleted] 7y ago
I was wondering how you could cope with women in a TRP themed relationship.
I am divorced with children and all my life I have been on the bad side of hypergamy. Namely women treated me like shit.
I know it is my fault.
But now that I manned up and got things in place. I attract more beautiful women than ever.
Unfortunately, I can't forget what women are capable of in a relationship when they don't respect you, how hurtful and evil they can be without any second thoughts, that everything is and has always been transactional.
The feeling of a relationship with such creatures scares the shit out of me. Nor do I want to play cum and dump at will. I have done that for several months. It feels lonely, sucks a lot of time and energy and I don't get any accomplishment out of it.
What do you guys do ? Spin plates at will ? Treat them like they treat you ? Escorts ?
Olga_Schmutzer 7y ago
Your story hits home. I'm in a LTR for seven years now, not necessarily planning to quit it, but I'm becoming much more TRP-aware and improving myself. When this LTR ends I will not MGTOW, but as you say: I can't forget what women are capable of when they don't respect you, and how hurtful/evil they can be.
Before my LTR, I visited hookers on the regular. It doesn't suck time. It's a very clear transaction. Ofcourse, there's no love involved (at least, I could keep it apart, it's just a sexual thing). They (and me too ofcourse) insist on using a condom. And I had some great experiences with girls I visited more than once and girls I visited for the first time.
I'm still thinking by myself: how can visiting hookers match with TRP? Does it have a place within it? How big is that place? To me, I know hookers can have a legit space in my life, as long as I won't confuse roles and don't expect to find a LTR there.
One thing hookers probably don't provide to the regular customer is true desire. It's always negotiated desire. Which is fine for me as long as they can fake enthusiasm and some good sex. On the other hand, there were more than a handful of girls which I visited regularly and they got to know me a little, they didn't have to fake a lot, I'm inclined to believe. Ofcourse, I had my fair share of bullshit with hookers, especially in the beginning when I was in my early twenties and not that experienced.
But to make a long story short: since you suggested "escorts" yourself, I can only encourage you to test the waters. I don't know where you are from, but here in The Netherlands (or Belgium and Germany, for my part) it's not too shady, not too expensive, etc.
One last tip: try two or three hookers if you want to form a more solid opinion about it. You might visit one hooker, have bad luck and think AHALT.
[deleted] 7y ago
I have never felt true desire from LTRs. It has always been transactional, they were looking for a guy after being dumped or for a wallet because they made bad decisions in life.
I have never felt wanted by a girl. I had more positive sexual experiences with hookers who liked sex or wanted more sex than what I paid for, than with "real" women.
It is sad and it makes me bitter but shrugs that's my life.
[deleted] 7y ago
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Archwinger Endorsed Contributor 7y ago
Wait. So "real men" love women and engage them as human beings?
I've been wasting my life buying into this false macho gender role where I'm supposed to have muscles and make money and be a social dynamo and have sex with women, when I could have been having deep human connections with women in a respectful, egalitarian relationship?
Shit. Now someone tells me. I'm going to go try respecting women as human beings and engaging them as people. I'll let you know how it goes.
EDIT: Hi. I'm back from trying to engage women as human beings. It turns out that they're not really people, just kind of person-like and more concerned with what they can extract from me than actually connecting with me. I didn't get laid at all despite doing everything right and being the most respectful guy on the planet.
Sorry. Your way didn't work. But I'm glad I tried that at least once. It was totally stupid that I was here, on The Red Pill subreddit, reducing women to sex objects, when I hadn't even tried the normal way yet.
[deleted] 7y ago
LOL
arch is at it again, missed you
empatheticapathetic 7y ago
His writing style is so cutting. Really gets in your head.