Summary:
For as many posts as there are attempting to explain what frame is, people are still asking for clarification about what it really means, or saying that they're still trying to understand it, or that they're halfway there. Guys use easily digestible lines such as "Sticking to your guns", "Acting from your center", "The lens through which you see the world" and "Integrity". While all of them make sense when the concept itself has already clicked in your mind and you've gotten it, they don't by themselves provide a solid understanding to someone who's never encountered the term before, or someone who has but still has no idea what it means. This is a model that breaks down the concept of frame to a more physical level, that focuses mainly on us being human beings using sounds and gestures to communicate, that leaves out as many abstractions as possible in order to keep the focus on what is "really" going on and not on "imagine that there's a bubble enveloping every person, that bubble is your frame...", or "imagine you have a frame infront of you, a square, wooden frame...". Frame is a simple concept and imaginary bubbles are imaginary.
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Body:
Frame is YOU. That is the most accurate description that I've encountered, but it does nothing to explain it to someone who doesn't understand the idea of frame. To those who repeat that phrase, it's obvious that frame = you.
"You" are a collection of things. The aim isn't to get into the metaphysics or ontology of what you are, or aren't. By "you", what I mean here, is your "self". Call it your personality, your ego, or the man behind the eyes. It's a set of beliefs, views, opinions, desires, decisions, focuses, actions, that are accompanied by emotions. THAT is clearly what "YOU" are, you can probably accept that, and that is what "FRAME" means.
The reason why the concept of frame is important, is that the concept of holding frame is important. Holding frame means that YOU do not change due to external (or internal) influence, and most importanty, the parts of YOU that are relevant in a given context do not change due to external (or internal) influence. Having a "strong frame" is a frame that holds well against external (or internal) influence, as you might've already figured. The importance of Holding Frame, is the power / dominance / decisiveness / focus / salesmanship / sexual attractiveness / whatever, that it projects. It's simply your power, the power that YOU have. You're not a leaf in the wind, but an agent, a being that maintains its form.
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Examples:
- A dude is staring at you on the street. You stare back. After a 4 second staring contest, one of the participants looks away -- he broke frame. His intention was to keep staring in order to prove his worth as a man. He failed to stick to his action and intention, while the other succeeded in the same endeavour, the latter being the external influence that broke the loser's frame.
- You approach a hoe and begin talking in a normal, friendly tone. She acts aloof and bitchy, venting about how horrible life is and by her tone implying that it's your fault. You maintain your friendly tone as if you didn't notice her bitchiness. A few seconds pass, and she softens her tone, almost as if she's embarrassed for having behaved like a cunt. She sensed your strong, unrelenting personality / frame, and is now following your conversational lead.
- A girl thinks that she can trick you into falsely confessing to something by accusing you of calling women "fat pigs", to which you respond: "Just your mom". You agreed to & amplified (maybe agree & specify is more accurate) her accusation, showing that you proudly own the description that you had made about her mother. She can't help but giggle, because your strength of frame i.e. self, is unshaken by her lies and she understands that she'll have to work harder to break you. Hypergamy is UP -- we as humans, innately perceive hierarchical standing / status / power. If you're above her, she'll begin to play with her hair.
- When debating with ugly feminists about women's subpar mathematical ability (example taken from sidebar's Frame post), and the feminists begin to try to divert the discussion by calling you a misogynist. You smirk at them, perhaps make a joke out of it "I forgot that we're in an American university, I apologize for speaking the truth, anyway...", and you stay on topic! Your frame in the debate is of course to argue for the fact that women suck at math, or whatever else out of the plethora of things that they suck at. That is your intention and your focus in the debate, which are parts of YOU. You maintain those when confronted with their attempts to shame you. Your emotional state is of course also unbroken, if anything, it's now more positive, by virtue of your opponents' entertaining predictability. Your emotions are obviously also a part of YOU. YOU remained intact i.e. you held frame. YOU didn't break, YOU didn't change in the face of external influence. This shows your unbreakable nature, your power. They'll dig their own graves by never addressing any of the points while you calmly prove your point. Your unshakeable frame will also convert your lesbian opponents to heterosexuality.
- If you have an arrogant dickhead professor whom you approach with a question and he mockingly jabs at you while kinda answering your question. Your feelings aren't affected by his condescension. You might smirk or even keep a stoneface and go "yeah, so do you know the answer?". He couldn't get to you, you didn't react. Your intention was to get an answer to X, your action of asking him for help followed from that intention, those are parts of YOU, and you held that frame when he tried to AMOG you, unaffected by his ancient ass, YOU remained unchanged. He'll see you as powerful, as unmovable, as an impossible target for his psychological sadism, because you are, because YOU are.
- A common example would be a pickup scenario, where you'll often be told to keep in mind the simple attitude of I'm the prize. That is your frame in that situation, for all intents and purposes, that is YOU in that situation; it is the internal storyline that stems from your belief (I'm the prize), your words (cocky banter), your confidence (smirk, and so on), or whatever, and those are all parts of YOU. Again, those things are factors that make up YOU. When shit-tested, you retain your prize mentality and hence respond accordingly. YOU are the prize and you maintain that attitude in the face of external influence. YOU don't break, you stay intact. You hold you -- you hold frame. If you can hold your frame i.e. keep YOU intact, as she's fighting to break you, get you to supplicate, apologize, or buy her a drink, then attraction will be created. YOU remained YOU as she tried to change you.
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With regard to that last example; 'frame' is often used to refer to a particular perspective -- to a frame. Like I'm the prize. An internal storyline, narrative, a belief. One's personal interpretation of reality. That's a valid definition, but frame is still YOU. Your beliefs and inner monologues are obviously parts of YOU. You present that frame and hold it; I'm the prize, while she presents her own frame, I'm a bitch, and now your frames fight. In that scenario, that frame, I'm the prize, IS YOU, while her frame, I'm a bitch, IS HER; you're the prize and she's a bitch. Keep that frame i.e. YOU intact for long enough, and she'll yield and accept that you're the prize, meaning that her frame broke, that SHE broke, and that she's now reacting to you, while you're not reacting to her. That is the entire concept, period.
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"Being unreactive". It's the same thing as holding frame. You act, you don't react. Your frame remains intact when confronted with external (or internal) influence. Your path doesn't change. Your intentions, desires, actions and emotions are maintained when faced with obstacles. They can be internal as well, such as doubt. You act from your center and do what you're supposed to do, deep down. You don't sit there passively waiting to be led by external forces. YOU, that is your beliefs, opinions, decisions and so forth, aren't changed by someone else. You bring your prize mentality, she brings her bitch mentality, you don't yield, eventually she does. SHE reacts to YOU.
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The term "the lens through which you see the world" refers to your personal interpretation of facts. You choose what you take in and what you ignore. If for instance you are condescendingly told that genius can look like crazy to stupid people, you thank them for sharing their experience... the notion of you being dumb and not a genius doesn't register in your mind, because the notion that you are indeed a genius does not change due to external (or internal) influence. That is the frame that you bring to the table -- I'm a genius. That is your interpretation of reality, the 'lens through which you see the world', it's a frame, yet, that is still YOU. That is the part of YOU that is relevant in that situation. Frame is YOU, it is your SELF. Not changing it/you when confronted, is what Holding Frame means.
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Look at Corey Worthington (or read Rollo's article about him). He didn't bat an eye when being shit-tested by a MILF on national television. The more he disrespected her formal authority by remaining intact in his self, the greater the ego investment of the reporter became and the harder she fought to break him (and the more lubricant she produced).
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The entirety of one's socially perceived power is one's ability to hold frame (sure, aside from money, titles, physique and quality of frame(explained further below in this paragraph) etc). You know that person who might be a low IQ motherfucker, but whose aloof arrogance frustrates you and grows stronger the more you attempt to reason with them. Of course, their power will never be on the level of someone with equally strong frame, who's actually intelligent, but that's life, a dwarf will never be as imposing as his undeformed counterpart, not all frames i.e. persons, are of the same quality, but the strength of frame always maximizes power.
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Frame is you, it is your self. The more (contextually relevant) parts of it that you keep intact when faced with external (or internal) influence, the stronger your overall frame, i.e. the better you are holding it.
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Now, does this mean that every time you answer someone's question, you are breaking frame? Yes and No. It depends. The following is in the definition: "... the parts of YOU that are RELEVANT in a given context". Hence, by this definition, the answer is No. There's a hierarchy of the factors that constitute you / your frame / your self. Your emotional state remaining positive so that you can focus on staying on topic and not take their baits and fight on their battlefield, is obviously more important than refusing to retort your opponent's arguments, in a debate... because waiting for your turn to speak is reactive, bro. Remaining confident and indifferent when gaming a shit-testing bitch, is obviously a more relevant part of frame holding (more important part of YOU to keep intact), than refusing to make out with her when she initiates, eventhough making out with her when she goes in for a makeout, would technically be breaking frame, iff the definition of holding frame didn't include "...the parts of YOU that are relevant...", since it'd be changing YOU (state of NOT making out) because of something that SHE does (into state of making out). And you would counter that with "but what if it was in my interest to make out with her when she initiated?", and it is, of course, and dude, you get the point. Frame is YOU -- the parts of you that are relevant in a given context; your frame i.e. YOU won't be viewed as weak for cooperating as long as it's in your own best interest, or for answering your dad when he asks you how you've been, or for extending your hand when your new potential boss offers to shake it before a job interview... RELEVANT parts of YOU. We could define Holding Frame as "not changing YOU because of external (or internal) influence". But then, every time you reacted i.e. changed YOU, in anyway, to anyone or anything, would be breaking frame.
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... It's quite clear what parts of YOU are important to keep intact in any given situation; for example, when shit-tested, you hold frame by A&Aing or whatever, to show that you neither agree with nor care about the accusation, you don't react emotionally by defending yourself, or, you A&A in a way that shows that you DO agree with the accusation and that you're proud of it. Emotional state is almost always relevant, as is focus, with regard to appearing strong in your SELF, to having strong frame. Intentions shouldn't be broken by another's stronger will, I mean, if you deviate from doing what you want to do and follow another, that's weak, obviously, OTOH, if there's a tweak to be made that will benefit both parties, that's called being smart. Common sense, don't be weak, but don't be a retard either. Ask yourself which parts of YOU are RELEVANT to maintain in X situation, in order to appear powerful / strong (I don't necessarily mean powerful as in having authority over others, but personal power, power over yourself; that translates to external control. You can't have absolute control over others, only over yourself, and when you have great control over yourself i.e. a strong frame i.e. an unbreakable SELF, people will perceive you as strong and in many cases see you as an authority). Read the examples above and think about how our imaginary YOU would be perceived if you failed to hold frame and fell into the others' frames.
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Like if someone proves one of your points wrong or corrects you, which seems more powerful; thanking them for the contribution and seeming unmoved, or getting loud and spouting retardation at them in an attempt to not seem as if parts of your self (beliefs, opinions, whatever) changed because of something they said, while everyone looking knows that he's right and you're wrong? Of course, with the dwarf and the low IQ motherfucker in mind, I urge you to think before you speak to minimize the errors that you make, because it's better to be smart than to be dumb, to be right than to be wrong. Still, ask yourself, what is relevant in a given context? Then keep THAT intact.
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Now, one could say that being a reactive, emotional pussy is holding frame, as long as one does so by choice and is consistent with it. Having "better to be smart than dumb" in mind, use common sense and reject this notion. Not everyone is equal, i.e. not every self / frame is equal. There is also an inherent, obvious contradiction in that scenario; consistently being reactive and not allowing external influence to change that property of YOU, is still being reactive i.e. letting external influence change properties in YOU. Some are better than others. And again, there's a hierarchy of importance wrt the parts that together make up your frame, as explained both above and below.
... holding frame / holding YOU intact, is good as long as YOU consist of powerful traits. Don't insist on being a slave to a woman, because the more you do that, or in other words, the more you hold your frame when your frame is I'm-your-slave, the more disgusted she will be. As long as your traits are powerful, holding them intact when tested, is a good thing. Only the powerful parts of YOU can ever be relevant in any context, and among them is a hierarchy dependent on the context.
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Frame is YOU. It's your SELF. When your frame is strong, you will not be reactive, but active. Your focus, intentions and emotional state will not be broken by attacks. You will stay on topic and not justify your position, you will laugh at their idiocy and not get triggered, you will twist their accusations and make fun of them instead of accepting the accusation as the platform that you're obligated to operate on. You'll transcend the earthly context and become a god.
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TL;DR (I highly recommend reading the whole thing, slowly and mindfully)
There are no wooden frames through which you see the world, no imaginary bubbles in which you exist that, if stronger than the bubbles of other people, will break their bubbles and suck those people in. There are only persons interacting. There is only YOU. So no need to complicate it. This is what we're talking about, at the most fundamental level that can be described; people interacting. Frame is YOU. YOU are your beliefs, thoughts, desires, decisions, focuses, attitudes, emotions, actions and words. When you are able to keep those things intact, i.e. yourself intact when tested, you are Holding Frame, meaning that you are keeping yourself intact, or the parts of yourself that are relevant in a given context, intact. Such as eye-contact in a staredown, tone of voice and amused masculine state of mind in an interaction with a bitchy bitch, confidence and calm in a battle of wits, or ignoring ad hominems and staying on topic in a debate. Or a calm demeanour and good posture in a 50-second k-close with a bitchy woman, or your assumed leadership role and abundance mentality in a 50-year marriage (I said 'relevant parts of YOU in a given context', since something like your faith in Satan might not be relevant in the 50-second k-close, whereas your flirty choice of words would be). Holding frame is a sign of power. If your focus, decisions and feelings can't be rattled, you are obviously powerful. Power and hierarchy are innately understood by us. That's why you hold your ground when a dog postures. That's why a hurt child curls his lip and holds his tears; he acts unprovoked, because being unreactive, unchanged, is powerful. That's why you don't back down from your outrageous claim when a woman shit-tests you about it, because that would be weak, and weakness is unattractive, whereas power is attractive. As you can probably guess, truly not GAF, feeling jolly and having a high opinion of yourself, will handle most of your frame holding; when those parts of YOU are good and unbreakable, the other parts of YOU will often follow. Strength of frame is one's level of Alpha, one's strength, one's power over oneself. Testosterone creates confidence and euphoria. I mean, connect the dots. The pieces fall into place.
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You might now conclude that this concept is extremely simple, and you'd be right. It's nothing new, it's nothing that you didn't already comprehend since you were old enough to speak. You might now also understand why working out, approaching and in other ways bettering yourself are so highly valued here.
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If you still don't get it, read the post again. If you disagree with it, you've misunderstood.
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HappyScribe 5y ago
> If you have an arrogant dickhead professor whom you approach with a question and he mockingly jabs at you while kinda answering your question.
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There are times when it makes sense to break frame. In this case your objective is to get a decent grade, not to be right. If you're forced to do some liberal arts course, just repeat back what the professor says, and get on with your life.
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sanitypanacea 5y ago
fuck yes i'm going to be coming back to this one.
NEXTing is getting easier by the day heh
lbrownlbandit 5y ago
Wish I found a post like this before. I made the mistake of taking holding frame quite literally and never giving in. Just know when your back is against the wall and you've messed up. No matter what the other person does make sure you apologies. Although you've been playing power games and holding frame like a boss. When you mess up, owning it and making it right will go a long way in how people around you perceive you and the relationships with the people who you were trying to hold frame and stay dominant over.
Just a little thing I understood after trying to hold frame at all times. Know when to meet people in the middle in times of need (friends, family, co workers) otherwise you'll just seem like a stuck up cunt and everyone will do everything in there power to break you down.
Thanks for the great post OP.
dulkemaru51 5y ago
I've seen guys change their behaviour radically after coming across some self-improvement book or PUA. It's cringy as fuck. They get in their head that they should do exactly what they feel like doing, try to order people around and refuse dialogue. They get ostracized pretty quickly. They don't become charismatic, just embarrassing. Worst of all, it's all forced and fake and they don't seem to realize how weird they're being.
It's strange, because many of them didn't have severe problems socially before that, but after learning that holding frame is important for attractiveness, they autistically adopt the black-and-white attitude of a 1-year-old's amygdala.
*Good thing you realized your error
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OldPeopleLeather 5y ago
I've just taken the red pill a few months ago and until now only vaguely understood this concept. Now I see it crystal clear, it just clicked with everything else I've been learning. Thank you!
Thisismybot8 5y ago
Great post OP. I genuinely believe that we will never have enough posts about holding frame. While understanding the concept on the surface is simple enough, it's great seeing more examples of holding frame. The more examples, the deeper of an understanding you have.
Thisismybot8 5y ago
"Your unshakeable frame will also convert your lesbian opponents to heterosexuality."
That was beautiful.
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lux_7 5y ago
This is what I disagree with.
It puts people in a "me VS you" mindset. And yes, sometimes that's just what you need, but many other times you are better off with a collaborative approach.
High value, top of the hierarchy socialites, build people up.
They don't squash them down -which is one of the definitions of social climbing: push others down so I can go up-.
Sure, sometimes you'll have to stare someone down, put your foot down and lay down the law.
But social skills means not staying stuck in that "win the frame" mindset, because that makes you combative and, ultimately, socially clueless.
Great example of how a "win the frame mindset" ultimately proved counterproductive:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1IUF9pKUWg
dulkemaru51 5y ago
According to this model of frame, the conclusion that you are breaking frame every time you answer someone, is logically valid.
I said:
With regard to appearing powerful, there's a hierarchy among the factors that constitute YOU (your SELF), that determines which parts of YOU are important to be kept intact when faced with external influence.
Frame is YOU. Holding Frame is keeping YOU intact when faced with external influence.
The example of not breaking eye-contact in a staredown is a simple one; if you break it, you break frame, you didn't keep YOU intact. The intention of proving what a badass you are and the following stare are parts of YOU that are relevant in that given context. Either of the two participants in the staredown might've as well denounced their religions without verbalizing it, so the part of YOU that is religious belief is not relevant in that given context with regards to appearing powerful, which is what holding frame does for you. If one of them changed their religion because of the other guy staring, no one would know, so it's not relevant, it's not a break in his frame, in HIM, that anyone notices, thus it doesn't affect anyone's perception of his power.
If your friend asks you how you're doing, answering him is technically breaking frame, because YOU are reacting to something that HE is doing. YOU went from being quiet, to talking, because of HIM. However, it's OBVIOUSLY not something that will turn you into an impotent worm in his eyes.
I never recommended infantile selfishness or the pursuit of a lack of social skill or cooperation with other humans.
Edit: I changed the definition. So the technicality is even less of a problem now, it's gone. The caveat is now built into the meaning.
MakoShark93 5y ago
The dude stare to stare thing is retarded to me. If I catch somebody trying it with me, I tend to ignore it. There's other shit to do, bruh. Aside from that, solid post.
raiko92 5y ago
Yeah i dont get the whole alpha staring contest thing
throwawaybpdnpd 5y ago
I agree with most of those points EXCEPT the part where you compare personality to ego...
It is actually better to have no ego when you want to maintain your frame than the opposite, having a high ego can trigger bad responses and break that frame.
Inner peace (stability) is all about lowering your ego around mates, it brings up your “game” by a notch by making you look very “humble”
RPSilverfox 5y ago
If you ever hear someone say “I’m like a chameleon” they are openly admitting they don’t hold frame ever. People like this go along to get get along so to speak. One of the things I’ve learned from this sub in dealing with women is to NEVER agree with something just to get on her good side. If she’s a PETA supporter and thinks everyone else should be too do not agree with her just to score points. I will tell any chick I need animal protein in my diet and will continue to eat whatever I want. Breaking frame would be to do what she’s doing which is also known as entering her frame, which is basically the same as cutting off your own balls. Great post OP!
DoneScannedIt 5y ago
A weird interaction and I came back to re-read some posts, and like yours, I now understand.
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greenlittleman 5y ago
"A dude is staring at you on the street. You stare back. After a 4 second staring contest, one of the participants looks away -- he broke frame. His intention was to keep staring in order to prove his worth as a man. He failed to stick to his action and intention, while the other succeeded in the same endeavour, the latter being the external influence that broke the loser's frame. "
It isn't really about a frame. In human males and in some other primates prolonged eye contact without communication could be considered as provocation. I don't advice anyone trying to stare down all guys you met, because some of them wouldn't "break frame", but will make situation into real conflict, which is absolutely meaningless. Unless you want to provoke random fights of course, then try it.
dulkemaru51 5y ago
Read the post again. Both have a frame in mind (keep staring). In case of one looking away, frame was broken. YOU were influenced by external influence.
The parts of your YOU that you brought to the table were the intention of not looking away and the action of staring, he made you look away. That is breaking frame. Not just according to this perspective on what frame is even but according to anyone who understands the concept.
Correct... I said: "His intention was to keep staring in order to prove his worth as a man ". I think that the italicized part was clearly a comical way of saying "provoke" or "establish dominance".
Neither do I. In fact, I don't advice staring down anyone.
EDIT: Read what I actually said and stop there. If I didn't include something, I probably don't hold that view.
Frich3 5y ago
i prefer to stare for two seconds so both parties understand that neither isnt afraid or "breaking frame" and then follow it up with a head nod. no need in breaking your neck to try and prove a stupid point about who can stare the longest.
zestytacoz 5y ago
There's also a big difference between breaking eye contact by looking forward and by looking down.
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SoulRebel99 5y ago
As long as you don't go out seeking confrontation like this, the metaphor works.
dulkemaru51 5y ago
I think that should be obvious for anyone who's not wrong in the head. I never advocated staredowns with random strangers.
It's not a metaphor though, it's an example. Anyone who understands what the post is saying, understands the idea of frame completely.
SoulRebel99 5y ago
Fair enough. You never know if they understand. It's just good to point it out so you aren't held responsible.
Feelinggood702 5y ago
Want to build impeccable frame? Allow yourself to fail again, again, and yet again. Be extremely open to experience. Allow yourself to be vulnerable, emotionally and mentally. Trust that your intuition will guide you throughout the process. Ask to see what is, not what you hope and wish things to be. Go through the painful humiliations, pain and sadness in order to succeed. Frame is not an ethereal idea you put in your head that says “I am this person.” You are much more than that.
dulkemaru51 5y ago
Not bad advice in and of itself.
Not saying that you claimed it to be, but what I wrote isn't incompatible with what you wrote.
I never adviced against personal growth. I made the concept of frame unequivocally clear.
Frame is your SELF. The concept of holding frame makes the idea of frame important. Frame is YOU. The more of YOU that remains intact in the face of external influence i.e. the better you hold frame (consider the fact that we're talking about interaction between humans), the more powerful you are perceived to be. That's it, nothing more.
I thought I was quite clear on it NOT being inherently alpha to never change your beliefs in the face of overwhelming evidence or other pretentious and edgy shit like that.
buttgoogler 5y ago
Ever tried, ever failed, no matter.
Try again, fail again, fail better.
BusterVadge 5y ago
So in other words, break the ego because it's really not you... That's what I gather from this writing.
If that's the case, I tend to agree especially when it comes to situations in which you may be rejected. Being hurt, rejected, humiliated dozens of times makes it easier for a man to tread where other men do not dare.
DoneScannedIt 5y ago
You can break your ego, but that isn't the only expression of this. When you have built your core values and embraced them, so that they are so strong, outside onslaught has minimal or no impact. You don't even go through the step of rejecting attack. You already know that their opinion has no value, doesn't need to be analyzed for validity, because you are self-assured. You are in your frame and it is unbreakable.
CraftingAmbition 5y ago
OP, this was a really well written post. Thanks for taking a somewhat ambiguous term and really hashing it out.
Not sure if you’ve read Models by Mark Manson, but he pinpoints “Neediness” as the root of all unattractive behavior.
If I recall correctly, he defines “Neediness” as:
He then says “Non-Neediness” is the root of all attractive behavior (Being more emotionally invested in yourself than in others). It’s a good thesis, but I always thought it was incomplete, since he’s defining attraction by what it isn’t.
Having a positive definition like “Holding Frame” really completes the idea.
Using Mark Manson’s definition of Non-Neediness, I would venture to say that “Holding Frame” could be synthesized down to this:
As all things go, Lifting seems to be the answer. If you want to build frame, hit the gym.
Thanks again for taking time to write this out.
dulkemaru51 5y ago
Thanks.
I've skimmed through a short summary of the book a long time ago. I didn't recall from it that which you said about neediness.
Frame is you. In the literal, everyday sense. It is the totality of the parts that make up you. Having a strong frame means holding frame means not changing the parts of you that are relevant in a given context. As the simplest example, when two insecure Betas are staring each other down to impose their illusory Alphaness on each other, the relevant parts of their selves (their "yous") in that context, are their intention (proving themselves), their action (staring) and their emotional states (confidence). The one who looks away broke frame -- he didn't follow through with the action, his intention was subverted and his confidence turned into fear. He changed when confronted with external influence.
That's only an example, but you get the point. You could go into deeper detail about everything that they brought to the table, like their beliefs being that they're badasses, which was crushed by the other's more dominant frame / self. The point remains the same. YOU are made up of various "parts", the more of those parts that you manage to keep intact, the more of your overall frame you are holding. And in specific situations, like the staredown, it's easy to see which parts are significant. Like, the winner of that staredown could've lost his religion in that staredown without the loser, or anyone else, ever knowing.
CraftingAmbition 5y ago
Thanks for the follow up. Models is a great book, so it's definitely worth a read if you have the time.
I like your examples about keeping eye contact or passing a shit test. Makes it a lot easier to see frame in action.
Vancopime 5y ago
I read his book, I like the way you combined OP and marks description
CraftingAmbition 5y ago
Glad to hear you like how I combined them. Thanks man
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tempolaca 5y ago
Frame is confidence. I don't know why you people keep inventing words for some concept that already exist.
Shit test: Confidence test.
Inner frame: inner confidence.
Strong frame: Strong confidence.
Loss of frame: Loss of confidence.
See how it works perfectly.
wobbleelbbow 5y ago
It's more than that. Frame is deeper level shit. Yes, it includes confidence, but it's not enough.
midgetpooooo 5y ago
Confidence just means you believe you can do 'this.' Frame encompasses how you react to what the world throws at you. It doesn't make sense to "confidently" react to breaking-up. But I can maintain frame in those situations. It might be closer to character if you want to use more familiar words.
dulkemaru51 5y ago
Exactly.
Frame is YOU. Frame is an important concept because holding frame is an important concept. It's keeping one's SELF (=YOU) intact when confronted with external influence (or internal influence, like your own doubts).
If 'your frame' is, for example, that 'I'm the prize', that's the story that you present, it stems from your belief, your words, your confidence, or whatever, and those are all parts of YOU. You maintain that frame, i.e. you maintain the relevant parts of you in that context (belief, words etc...) and don't break them. If you can keep those intact by passing her shit-tests and as a result keep the narrative and behaviours of, you being the prize, intact, until her bitch shield breaks, you have created attraction.
1v1crown 5y ago
No one breaks, and you two fight, you both go to jail, no one on the street remembers you, you could of just not cared and lived your life.
She never stops her bitchy tone, you've wasted your time, she throws a drink on your face, you are a laughing stock and your night is ruined.
I've got a better idea, stay under the radar, you'll have a better life.
dulkemaru51 5y ago
Well, nothing's guaranteed. A piano could fall on your head and kill you anytime.
Not that you explicitly said it, but I don't propose that anyone go out and pick fights with random dudes by staring at them, just so you know. I also never said that keeping up a friendly tone will get you laid with every existing female, in every situation.
The post explains what frame is. If you understand the post, you understand the concept of frame, utterly and completely.
Casd12 5y ago
I reject your reality and substitute my own. This is frame.
omega_dawg93 5y ago
wanna see if you can hold frame?
try losing your job and potentially losing all your material possessions... house, truck, etc. then your health starts to fail.
then your LTR says, "i don't think this is working out" and bails.
the concept of frame simply put: "nothing can break you. not that job, not that violent threat, not those nice tits and pretty smile... or those over-the-top emotions. stay on your purpose."
the only person that should be able to push/pull you away from the man you are is... YOU.
ally_uk 5y ago
Abundance mindset bro agree, never fear loss
SKRedPill 5y ago
Funny how it works. I just wrote a similar post on abundance and frame. But only now I am reading yours. How you are defines your frame, and that in turn decides your life and how you handle what happens to you.
scorpionkg 5y ago
I have a Question. A guy who has InstaG is, in essence, a no frame guy? Why I am on this idea? Because pictures are a form of searching for approval from others. I think that social media, in general, destroy our frame.
What do you guys think about social media and frame?
magx01 5y ago
Eh, I'm one of those "social media is mostly cancerous to society" people but at the end of the day literally every human ever has wanted approval from another human. Some things are just biological/psychologically unavoidable and wanting approval/attention is one of those. There are degrees of course and the insta whores go over the top with it which is why we point it out but everyone wants some of it sometime.
ghostcel2018 5y ago
This just doesn't apply to dating and women. Also in dealing with other men.
I've had bigger stronger men get in my face all mad and I just give them an emotionless stare. Or talk back in a numb voice.
I noticed they got intimidated like I'm a psycho killer or something... Or they start softening up and acting apologetic
DickMystery 5y ago
Had a guy in a pub who was pushing, to which I reacted with my elbow (slight push to get him off of me). Dude went crazy, tried to provocate and said I better hold his hand and dance with him if I liked to touch him like that.
I held out my hand with a smile and danced for a few secs with him and after that I was the chill dude in his eyes and he was friendly all night long and didn't push my boundaries anymore lol.
Also love the big guys coming in, either giving the nod or shaking the hand. Have had these a lot recently. Fun to have made a bit of contact with the big and chill guys around, makes it easier to do whatever the fuck you want later on. And they might have your back in case some fucked up dude comes along and tries to start a fight.
myagoo 5y ago
So you're saying it applies to men ?
FatmanO 5y ago
Remember guys that rejection builds frame
machocornflakes 5y ago
Bullshit. Rejecting builds frame.
FatmanO 5y ago
Both builds frame to be honest.
warlordchad 5y ago
No, he's correct. Being unmoved by rejection is how you build frame, and it's impossible to develop that skill without being rejected. Any human's natural instinct when being socially rejected is to feel bad, nervous, anxious, etc. because in evolutionary terms, this meant you might lose status in the tribe or worse face exile, which meant you were literally dead.
​
Thus, we have to learn to be stoic, unmoved, non-reactive when our frame is tested, and the only way to do that is to face rejection. Anyone who does cold approach knows this. The first ten, twenty, or thirty times you feel like shit after a girl rejects you, but after awhile, you realize it doesn't matter, you learn how to pass shit tests, and ultimately, you learn how to hold frame and maintain your internal state in spite of rejection.
​
To me, this is why using Tinder, Bumble, and social media is a shitty way to meet women. You never really experience rejection, you just don't match--or if you do it's via text, which as anyone knows, someone being a dick online is much different than someone dressing you down IRL.
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Frame is everything, and the only way to truly test your frame and thereby strengthen it is to face failure, rejection, and isolation. Great post OP.
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Thisismybot8 5y ago
This is great. I was thinking about how to get into more situations where my frame is tested. Thankfully, there's hordes of sluts at the ready to test it for me.
ScroogeMcDaq 5y ago
Frame is attitude, a character. Right?
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HS-Thompson 5y ago
For reference the word “frame” as used on TRP is just short for “frame or reference”, which is a fairly well understood concept that is easily googled.
Probably the shortest way to express the concept is the word “perspective” as in who’s perspective is primary within the interaction.
If the answer is you, then people are in your frame.
Flying_Wingback 5y ago
Just watch the aftsov animated video on youtube and you'll fully understand concept of frame
dulkemaru51 5y ago
I just did. I didn't like it. He started with an unnecessary bubble metaphor and continued with lines stolen from ECs and Rollo, lines that are of course both correct and by people who understand what frame is, yet they are lines that won't make sense to a noob before he himself has a Eureka moment having experienced holding frame personally for a number of times.
Even saying so myself, I have yet to encounter any resource that breaks the term down to this level, this close to the hardware. My post starts with the premise of people interacting, and explains what the word 'frame' refers to in that context. It doesn't get any clearer than this, unless you go down to an actual atomic level. Anyone who understands this post, understands what frame is, completely. It shouldn't be such a confusing thing, since it's a very simple one.
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snowmoose1 5y ago
yeah frame is important but you should have a reason for your actions. What is your goal and purpose of staring back at the guy? he either fights you or looks away, in the end, what have you achieved? think about the consequence, also for calling her mom a pig.. would you tell that to your female colleague? no fkn way, your ltr? hell yeah.
my point is, obviously don’t risk your reputation or lose your job because of frame but don’t kick ass either.
dulkemaru51 5y ago
I've addressed several people thus far, misinterpreting that particular example of holding frame, as me saying that you should stare back at male strangers who are looking for a fight. Anyone else that does that from now on, I leave at the mercy of their own reading comprehension.
If you didn't take it as me advocating staredowns with other men on the street, born out of insecurity, but if you just wanted to point that out, then this is obviously not meant for you.
Crowstarz 5y ago
Excellent write up.Go through 9 iron rules of tomassi.Frame is everything.Having an impeccable frame will put you on top of the food chain.
ZoroasterFlame 5y ago
I suspect that if everyone were party to this knowledge society might get awful silly.