When I was younger, I would watch my parents argue and listen intently. One thing that always struck me was how a verbal apology from my father was never sufficient. If my father wronged my mother in some minor way, he would apologize, but that would not solve the problem and would always seem to make it worse. It puzzled me. Apologies are an admission of guilt and an attempt to improve the relationship, right?
This is how a lot of men view apologies. When we apologize, we might actually mean it, admit wrongdoing, and want to improve the situation. Be careful, though, as women do not see apologies the same way we do.
A few weeks ago, I visited my parents and asked my mom why she seemed to never accept my dad's apologies and why things would get worse when he would apologize. She looked at me and said, "Because I want to hear it again and again".
This confirmed what I had read a few months prior in the book "Practical Female Psychology For the Practical Man". In that gem of a reference, the author mentions how verbal apology is a sign of inferiority in the eyes of a woman. In a nutshell, if you verbally apologize, it is never viewed as a positive thing. Your intentions are not important. Only your frame is important.
So, what to do if you severely wrong a woman you are seeing or dating? Make her feel something else when she's complaining about what you did. Grab her suddenly and start to dance. Simply lead her somewhere to do something else and take her mind off it. Women want men who take action.
TLDR: To a woman, a verbal apology from a man she is interested in is the ultimate break of frame. If you wronged her, make it right by changing her emotive state. Avoid verbal apologies.
pretorian94 5y ago
From my experience, this is totally true. Great post pal
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pohlrich 5y ago
and why does she want to hear it again and again?
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[deleted] 5y ago
Woman want men who do no wrong. they will obviously complain about any percieved b.s and magnify upon that.
i've experienced it enough to know that women hate apologies so yeah, you shouldn't be doing shit that warrants replies, sort that shit out first, harder than you realize
QuirkyDoctor 5y ago
100% agree. Women are far more emotional creatures than men. Of course, easier said than done, but practice makes perfect!
Imperator_Red 5y ago
This is all true, but don't be too extreme. If you accidentally bump into her and she drops her cup of water, you can say sorry. Just don't be a bitch about it. This is normal human interaction, and doesn't indicate any sort of supplication.
Quaternionz 5y ago
While this is true, it's good habit to practice just never having the words "I'm sorry" come out of your mouth, ever. There are also gray areas in the middle where it's not obvious supplication, but it's not also not completely trivial. It can be better to say "Shit, oops" or "Damn, let's just clean that right up." If you get into the habit of saying "Sorry, sorry, sorry" for a million different minor things, that can be just as bad.
Flying_Wingback 5y ago
A simple “my bad” is much more effective
RolandTheDickslinger 5y ago
Unless you're Canadian or British, where "sorry" is more common than "excuse me". Don't overthink it.
Fyrjefe 5y ago
I like the last example. It's acknowledging the mishap, taking accountability, and moving on with your life. DARE, not DEER.
jinbe12 5y ago
Apologizing to people in power over you, whether it be job, anything that has leverage over you is always a bad idea. If their preconceived notions are that you're inferior, they will think less of you. Men and women alike, not saying sorry but showing you're apologetic is superior in most if not all situations.
titsmegeee 5y ago
I don't know about this advice, can you elaborate? I use admission of guilt and an apology as a trust builder often with clients. "hand up that was my fault, i apoligise for that. Here is how we can best move forward together". Do you mean not actually verbalizing it, but showing it instead?
youshouldjotthatdown 5y ago
There's a difference between I'm sorry and I apologize. I learned this years ago. If I am truly regretful of something, I'm sorry for it. If I just made a mistake, I apologize; and it's nothing more elaborate than that.
​
Then a pause.
​
Move on to the subject at hand and what needs to be done next, like nothing wrong ever happened.
​
Then, if I'm still getting grief, "I've apologized, there's nothing more to be done for that." Move on to the subject at hand.
​
Then, if I'm STILL getting grief, I put the onus of a solution on the other person, "What would *you* like me to do here?" Then deny everything they ask for, or just keep hammering the 'nothing's going to change what was done' line of thought.
​
I'm late for an inspection.
​
I apologize. Pause. I'll be there in 10 minutes.
​
Not good enough.
​
I've apologized, I can't change the fact that I'm going to be late. Pause. I'll be there in 10 minutes.
​
Still not good enough.
​
NOT ANOTHER APOLOGY! "What would you like me to do?
​
be there 10 minutes ago? give you back your 10 minutes? etc.
​
None of those things can happen. I can still be there in 10 minutes or not. Unfortunately, things don't always go as planned; sometimes we just need to be adult about things (THEY HATE THIS ONE- iow, You're childish) and move on to what can be done.
​
When I show up in 10 minutes, I act like nothing happened and I'm on time, because, well, now I am- I told you 10 minutes and THAT'S the new appointment time, so here I am, on time.
jinbe12 5y ago
It really depends on the opposite persons character, but primarily saying sorry or defaulting to sorry as the first thing that comes out of your mouth, so often or not will be viewed as a weakness/incompetence, regardless of your efforts to do your best for that person. In most cases its not even necessary.
I call it the inferiority complex. All these "bigshot" stubborn old fucks, who think the sun shines out of their asses will eat you alive.
Why apologize to begin with if you've already got a resolve?
I work in corporate settings and I see it all the time, try to limit the amount of times you say sorry and put that energy into resolve, you'll be more successful that way.
titsmegeee 5y ago
This is solid. Grey instead of black and white as always. Sorry as a default position makes my skin crawl, but definitely think it has trust building and tactical uses. Its more about the ownership of actions and outcome instead of the sorry.
MrTrizzles 5y ago
Almost. Only your actions are important. This is the same in all aspects of life. Talk is cheap.
rationalthought314 5y ago
Men are taught to own up to their mistakes and apologize. Women are generally brought up to think they are never wrong. It doesn't help when we see men apologizing to women in fiction and we see women forgiving them because it was the man who was acting wrong and he realized his faults. Art does not always reflect life but what we want reality to be.
WolfenSatyr 5y ago
If it's clearly my fault, falls within my power to prevent it, and it's significant I'll give one apology and corect it.
For example if I grocery shop and forget to pick up a significant ingredient for dinner I'll apologize and go back out to get it, or make something different. Done. If she brings it up any any point afterwards she gets nothing more than just a deadpan look. A repeated apology loses value.
If I go out and she's upset over it, I offer nothing. She would have known in advance of my plans and had the option of planning something for herself or asking if she could join me. Not in my realm of control, nothing for me to apologize over.
I don't play the apology game. I've nexted girls that insist on it.
GL_QUAD 5y ago
FYI, there's also that Bill Clinton move. If a need to put it verbally arises, "mistakes were made" is fine expression.
SexdictatorLucifer 5y ago
Right on. But, what I've found pretty effective in an LTR when you have actually wronged her (in your opinion, not hers) is to hold frame and let her show you how it makes her feel, and then wait. Holding frame even when you're in the wrong solidifies her perception of superiority over her, when you fuck up is when she will be judging you most. Dont give in. Once it is in the past, whether that be a few days or a few weeks, then its likely safe to make a verbal apology if she respects you (which she probably does after not seeking her approval like a little bitch when it happened). I've done this for a while now and they are completely receptive and really mature about it once their emotions have passed. Nothing dramatic, just a simple "hey about that thing, I am sorry about that." That's all. Kind of balances out the complete IDGAF attitude you have to show when she might have even been sobbing in front of you while you stood ice cold. Always good results in my experience. Give her the roller coaster she wants.
Basically never apologize when she's telling you to. Do it on your own terms. In fact, when she's ever telling you or expecting you to do anything, its safe to say you should never do it, no matter how warranted it might be.
SoulRebel99 5y ago
Change her mood, not her mind.
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Quaternionz 5y ago
Rolling over laughing right now. This is a great little rhyming truth. I love it.
bondbandito 5y ago
What's a good tactic for this?
virusofthemind 5y ago
Drop into the mood yourself then trigger an emotional response in her, then lead the emotional state to the one you wish her to experience.
SoulRebel99 5y ago
Make a joke, change the subject, flirt, mishear something, amused mastery, flip the script, tickle her, etc. Get creative! If you use the phrase as a rule, it'll help you hold frame when she's acting out, moody, or not being fun to hang with.
nabosch 5y ago
Pick her up in your strong arms, spin her around, place her down, pat her on the head and walk away.
bondbandito 5y ago
It's funny cause I accidentally employed some of those tricks yesterday while on a college project conference call.
Bitch was still pissy cause I nexted her a few weeks back. She was challenging my points for the first hour of the call, then after I flipped the script that she might never have a man to marry, she started qualifying and was cooperative the rest of the call.
Change her mood not her mind. Works wonders!
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BobbyPeru 5y ago
These are all great suggestions, but until OP has a track record of strong frame, she will still act harpy. Oh, and if you have a major slip in frame, even after a long stretch of strong frame ame, you just threw away a bunch of hard work.
Thats how important frame consistency is
Doc_Holiday163 5y ago
Doesn't your point just highlight how futile it is in the end to keep up a front and act like a bully/manipulator?
If you only keep people in line by behaving that way, of course the second you show any weakness they will leave or betray you (emotionally or physically).
If you act domineering and manipulative (dread game, never apologise etc), many women will stay with you. But when you show any sign of weakness (including getting sick which is when you might want a woman who actually loves you to look after you), they will ditch your ass so fast you won't know what's going on.
My grandfather for example was an incredible man, and a real alpha. Everyone knew him, everyone liked him, he was competitive and assertive, his achievements were well known, he provided for the whole family. He got Parkinson's disease. Obviously that's quite a slow progressing disease. As soon as he got to a certain point, my grandmother and my mother put and her sister put him in a home. It was awful seeing him like that, and all he ever said was 'I just want to leave, please get me out of here, don't go'. He didn't even get to go on one last holiday when he was still able. And they all lived off his dime.
Now you may say, 'and that's why awalt'. But the fact is he only controlled the women in his life by domination. He cheated on my grandmother and she found out, he was emotionally distant from my mother and her sister. For everything he did right in his life, he didn't understand women even though he was obviously very 'red pilled'. All being alpha ever did for him was get him abandoned during the last years of his life.
So this isn't directed specifically at any one person here, but just don't make that same mistake. All this bullshit 'never apologise, never drop frame'. That will get you used and then abandoned, or maybe tolerated for some time and then abandoned.
The real red pill as far as I'm concerned is just about finding inner strength and exploring everything it means to be a human being. Dropping your ego is an aide to spiritual growth, and can allow you to do better in social situations as you can tailor your personality to fit the situation better. But that doesn't mean you have to go full psychopath and live your whole life as a lie.
Just remember, if something is true it doesn't take any effort to keep it up. If something is a lie it always has to be maintained or it falls apart. The truth just exists, you can ignore it and go away, and when you look again it will still be there. You don't have to remember or practice the truth like you do with a lie.
So if your instinct it to apologise, just do it. If you have to stop yourself and think 'what would be most red pill or alpha right now', you've already lost it.
SoulRebel99 5y ago
Yes, strong frame is rooted in a sense of self and purpose.
Abeham10 5y ago
Wouldn’t she get all pissy and ask what you’re doing if you tickle her? What would be a good example?
HeadingRed 5y ago
It can also make her angrier- at you and herself. You look weak, she feels stupid for picking a weak man. It also does nothing to change her mind.
I've taken to just kissing her - not a peck on the lip or cheek but a full-on "lets start making out and see where this goes". Shockingly effective and sometimes leads to sex.
strikethrough123 5y ago
You only get one apology. Use it wisely.
Haki_User 5y ago
This was beautifly written in the 16 commandments of poon on Heartiste.
VIII. Say you’re sorry only when absolutely necessary:
"Do not say you’re sorry for every wrong thing you do. It is a posture of submission that no man should reflexively adopt, no matter how alpha he is. Apologizing increases the demand for more apologies. She will come to expect your contrition, like a cat expects its meal at a set time each day. And then your value will lower in her eyes."
Read these rules, memorize them the same way you memorize your own name, and the quality of your pussy interactions will increase drastically.
batfish55 5y ago
I rarely upvote TRP stuff these days, but you got a solid nugget of truth here.
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TheLastMgtow 5y ago
Hey. This is not so linear. But i agree with you for the most. A man must never apologize.
But a man must not be afraid to do bad things.
I remember back in the days i use to do some shit on purpose. One thing you cant really afford is her asking you sorry.
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Cdsmasher 5y ago
I've been constantly seeing this kind of apologetic male depiction on popular tv series. We all know how media has an effect. Suits for example has supposedly pretty cool/badass guys, but both main characters apologize to women like 5 times per episode for raising their voice or acting grumpy because they had a bad day etc. Same thing in the Iron Fist I recently watched (yeah that show sucks). They all look lame and ironically the female figures are rarely so happy to hear about it and have the attitude of "I forgive you... maybe" and are definitely not impressed/attracted. It's obviously even worse than that in real life.
JUST FUCKING DON'T. For starters, don't be an idiot who makes constant, legitimate mistakes. If you are, become introspective and work on fixing your shit. If you are a manchild with temper tantrums who requires getting slapped by a real man or can't help not constantly trash talking like some shitty drug dealer wannabe, rightfully you aren't worth shit. You are not MATURE, not better than the degenerate hoes we constantly face.
Don't fall into the trap of "men can be emotional but must admit their mistakes and seek forgiveness" bullshit brought by feminists and soy boys.
To the morons who understand "real men do not apologize, EVER" from this post: Of course fucking apologize if you made an honest mistake, or unintentionally hurt someone (like a human). Just develop enough brain cells to think about your actions before doing them and don't regularly do or say something you are going to apologize for afterwards like a retard. Learn to fucking act like a mature man.
DeontologicalSanders 5y ago
If you're in a relationship with a woman, she's trading sexual attractiveness and access to her uterus, things she was born with and has done virtually nothing to earn, for your time, attention, and resources, things you have worked and toiled to make valuable since you were 13 years old. Apologies are for restoring an equilibrium between peers. Between equals.
Men and women are not equal.
If she fucks up, withdraw your attention until she is pleasant and compliant again. If you fuck up, what the fuck ever. Even if you're a dick sometimes, she's still getting an awesome god damn deal in exchange for something she herself put very little effort into. If she's with you, it's because you're better than her. Act like it.
-SatansAdvocate- 5y ago
This is such an incredibly fucked up thing to believe, that relationships are merely women exchanging their sexuality for men's caregiving. Absolute lunacy. I have no doubt you've never experienced a truly fulfilling and meaningful relationship if that is your true mentality.
If you people stopped trying to play elaborate games and just tried to act human with another human, you might have success that isn't based on how many "plates" you get to plow.
You have to believe you're better than your partner to feel secure? You're literally saying they are inferior to you. Do you know what love is? Thats some psycho boyfriend shit right there.
steambc 5y ago
This particular "satan" must wear a blue suite instead of the traditional red. I'll bet he does great with the ladies...NOT
DeontologicalSanders 5y ago
That's a nice username you got there.
TheRedPike 5y ago
Username does not check out. Thirty day vacation for moralizing.
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etucker546 5y ago
This, this beautifully written paragraph i will start today to internalize and intertwine with my beliefs.
-SatansAdvocate- 5y ago
Except it's an incredibly toxic and downright wrong view to have. It's based on a brainwashed view of how the world works.
Really, just ask yourself if the kind of relationship you want to be in is one where you literally think lesser of your partner and as someone you can just manipulate and "be better than".
jackandjill22 5y ago
This is a perfect explanation. Thanks for sharing your knowledge & improving the community despite the great risk to yourselves.
whatsthisgarg 5y ago
Ergo:
Absolutely fucking brilliant equation.
Attention fuckers: click on /u/DeontologicalSanders check his submitted, read his fucking awesome post about this very subject. Expert take on it. Mods are handing out points like candy (believe me, I know!) and nothing for this guy ... yet.
DeontologicalSanders 5y ago
I appreciate you giving me big ups, but the Contributor label, karma, and EC points are not things I'm at all concerned with. It's the reason I leave my rambling, emotional stream-of-consciousness posts with zero net upvotes in place instead of deleting them. I'm not here for brownie points. I'm here to help people.
MCFiletMignon 5y ago
Still, I did read some of your posts based on the tip above.
Seems to me you have a good grasp on the dynamics and motivations. If you were to write a book, I think I'd gladly read it. Very insightful stuff.
whatsthisgarg 5y ago
Oh I totally agree with you. I will abandon my account if I ever get endorsed, of which I'm sure there is little danger.
The ONLY thing the points give me is a little visibility in the comments. I'm here to help also, and the higher profile is just a little thing to make that happen.
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Fyrjefe 5y ago
Send up a flair to an EC and maybe he'll get some recognition. Broadly speaking, I agree. That was a great riff on you are the prize. Good shout.
un1queusern4me69 5y ago
And what does it mean if a girl says sorry a lot? I have experienced this a few times
SavorThePill 5y ago
Yeah, I knew one that said sorry all the time. I got so annoyed by it, I told her to stop it, and whenever she did it again, I'd give her shit about it. I don't care who it is, I don't really view apologies as meaningful. Either take full responsibility [and I'll respect that enough], or don't make mistakes.
SirKolbath 5y ago
It’s appeasement strategy. It generally comes from fear of abandonment.
MaliciousMack 5y ago
I'll apologize if I'm legitimately in the wrong, but nothing past that. I'm not going to grovel to make a woman feel any better.
AnyDoughnut 5y ago
There are times to apologize, but never if it is an act of submission on your part. If you apologize to her in that context she will see your apology as capitulation, and thus weakness.
You can apologize during certain scenarios where it shows empathy but not submission. For example, I accidentally stepped on a plate's bare foot when I had my boots on. I voluntarily apologized, and I am sure she didn't think any less of me after that incident.
You just have to be acutely aware of whether or not apologizing could be construed as submission, and if it can be construed as such do not apologize.
Olram_Sacul 5y ago
I think it's a matter of frame. I had an awesome and very long relationship with a girl and I used to apologize, when I thought I fucked up, if I didn't think so, I wouldn't, and demanded the same from her from the very beginning. Actually I am like this with everyone. For me, saying that I am sorry because I feel so, not because I am afraid of the other person reaction is just not being a dick, and I expect the same from everyone else. I'm new to TRP anyway so the guys here may think otherwise
Koffoo 5y ago
I believe there are significant exceptions to this, sometimes when you really screw up and it's personal to her, apologizing can make a big difference.
velocimo 5y ago
searched for a free ebook format of the book and didn't find it, could someone help me? tried mirc and nothing.
PsychedelicDentist 5y ago
http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=B9C3F8B91E9BE773C99E1C2145D1EE4A
MattyAnon Admin 5y ago
An apology is an admission of guilt. All the woman has to do then is shout "Well I don't accept your apology" and the trap is fully sprung. Admission of guilt, apology that isn't accepted.
She wants your father to repeatedly submit to her drama? Fucking madness. This is where appeasement gets you.
It is. Admitting responsibility is anathema to them. The game is to get away with everything and take no responsibility. Apologising is losing the game.
jonpe87 5y ago
Would you ever apologize for a 9 yo kid?
alchamest 5y ago
I have a 6yo, I have apologised, unprompted and entirely of my own choice.
There have been times when i was out of line, by my own standard and ill admit fault on my part. The reason being, i am a flawed human, i'm not perfect. My kid can know this, i believe it is better she knows this. I think it is good for her to see me err and acknowledge err in my ways, then observe how i change over time.
I could easily ignore my failures and allow her to carry the impact of my shortcomings with out reprieve. Just leave it up to her to sit with and make sense of it the best she can. I could.
I will be teaching her something either way. Ill also be training myself to behave in a certain way over the long term too. each choice will flavour the type of relationship i have with my daughter and how she is as a person.
SirKolbath 5y ago
I believe you mean “to” a nine year old, and the answer is yes.
For me to tender an apology I must have violated one of my own moral codes. Not a moral code applied to me by someone else. I have to sincerely believe that something I have done is in the wrong based on my moral orientation.
When I was a high school football coach I had a really shitty practice one day. When I was writing my post practice evaluation I realized that my attitude had been incorrect the entire day. My players had not practiced well because I had been a poor example for them. The following day I lined up 26 high school players from sophomore to senior and apologized to them for the practice we’d had the day before. Then I went down the line and shook every players hand.
That was the best practice we had that year and it turned into one of the best football teams I ever coached.
You do not apologize to appease someone. You apologize when you have made a mistake by performing an action that runs contrary to your personal moral code. And the best apology, by the way, is to not do it again. This is why I get sick and tired of businesses that fuck up and think saying “I’m sorry” fixes it. I have been banking with USAA for 17 years. They also handle my insurance needs. Over that time there have been at least seven major blunders in either my banking or my insurance. When my jeep overheated and my transmission melted down I was stuck by the side of the road because USAA had inexplicably removed roadside assistance from my policy about eight months before. They had no record of anybody calling in to remove it, it just vanished off of my policy. Two weeks ago my credit card was declined after I had made a payment because they inexplicably held a transfer from my savings account to my checking account, both of which are their own bank accounts.
After hearing the words, “I’m sorry“ insincerely uttered half a dozen times from their customer service representative’s mouths I finally put my foot down and said, “If you apologize to me again I’m closing my accounts. You’re not sorry, or you wouldn’t be continuing to make the same procedural mistakes over and over again where my accounts are concerned. The best apology is for you to fix the problem and not repeat it. If you can’t do that, I will find another bank.”
I don’t want to hear an apology because somebody violated my moral code. I want to hear an apology from the person that has violated their own moral code and sincerely feels that was a mistake. Anything else is just noise.
Edit: Christ on sale but Apple voice to text is terrible. Corrected typos and deleted a full paragraph it duplicated.
KaraethonCycle 5y ago
Yes.
If I thought I had made a mistake and wanted to acknowledge it and say I wouldn't repeat it and because I believed it was the right thing to do (and in the case of a 9 year old, it would have to be a mistake he could understand). No apologies just because he's throwing a tantrum or to keep him happy or calm him down.
Same with women.
If YOU genuinely believe you made a mistake, it's fine to apologize for your reasons on your terms. Once. Don't grovel or repeat yourself or lose frame. Just acknowledge your mistake. Don't make so many fuckups that it is a regular occurrence.
Most importantly, you don't apologize to make HER happy or calm HER down or to "keep the peace". I'll say that again - you apologize rarely and for yourself, when you realize you made a genuine mistake.
taptaptapheadshot 5y ago
I absolutely agree, if you make a mistake and you realise it you should admit your error, ignoring your ethics because of how a woman may react is pathetic imo.
Fyrjefe 5y ago
With the kid, you can make it a lesson of accountability and you aren't sacrificing frame/authority. Some good stuff in your reply.
empatheticapathetic 5y ago
Not if it achieves nothing but further problems. The whole point of the post.
If you have nothing to gain, then you don’t do it. Women aren’t logical. They’re super sensitive to hierarchy.
SmamelessMe 5y ago
This.
Apologies are for acknowledging you made something you regret, and to ensure the other party it is not going to become a trend. Nothing more. If you're apologizing in a way that makes you feel lower than the other party, you're apologizing too much.
If the other party decides to event attempt to use your apology against you, you do not tolerate that.
jonpe87 5y ago
No, you don't. The base of your frame and way of thinking is that there is mutual understanding and friendship among human beings per se, you don't conquer respect this way because you are actually giving away your frame. The basis of our conscious activity comes from hierarchical power. Actually the fact that you want this kind of reality shows weakness. Because we are egoists in nature without the hierarchical power dynamic our life would be a mess, also when you apologize you subconsciously expect the same behaviour from the other person, like: "deny your egoism like me." and that is the fooliness thing to expect from another human being. Sorry but for most human beings you are just a fool and an idiot that they call a great guy.
face_north 5y ago
Any pdf version of the book you just mentioned ?
PsychedelicDentist 5y ago
http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=B9C3F8B91E9BE773C99E1C2145D1EE4A
C2074579 5y ago
This makes me so annoyed. "Don't apologize or I see you as my bitch." Like fucking suck my dick. I will keep this in mind though. Thank you.