Hey Whisper, do you know of any good reads or materials on holding frame against parents. Especially against single parent (mother). I could handle normal shit tests but I do find myself a bit lost when having to deal with my mum.
Holding frame against some random clam is much easier than holding frame against your parents. They know you inside and out, there's no such thing as abundance mentality with them, and nexting them is a grave step indeed.
But it can be done. And it must be done. They remember you as a child, but at a certain point, you become a man, and you have your own life to live.
(Some of you are fortunate enough to have parents who are the solution, rather than the problem. For you, the following should be read to understand how the other half lives.)
- Never have an argument.
When you argue about what you should do, you are placing your actions upon the table, and dicing with them for the outcome. The very act of arguing concedes that which you do not wish to concede...the idea that their opinion matters to what you will do.
You are now an adult, and they will have some difficulty accepting that. Remind them of it by not opening up your reasoning for discussion.
- Never give a reason.
Your only reason should be "This is what I have decided to do." To give any other reason invites argument.
They can't argue "No, you haven't." If they argue "You shouldn't" (to try to tempt you into an argument), you can simply agree "Perhaps. But I will." If they say "I won't let you.", you simply point out that they cannot stop you. As you are doing whatever it is.
- Never wait for them to stop talking.
This is implicitly agreeing to have a discussion. If they say they will not let you leave, you tell them they cannot stop you... as you are walking out the door. Tell them what you will do, and immediately do it. Make them scamper after you if they want to talk.
- Prefer telling them what you have done to telling them what you will do.
They cannot argue with what has already happened.
- Draw boundaries. Punish bad behaviour by withdrawing contact.
If they raise their voices or speak disrespectfully to you, warn them once that if they do this, the conversation is over. If they continue, hang up the phone or walk away. Remember that they need to talk to you, but you do not need to talk to them.
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Be financially independent of them.
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If you aren't, become so, as rapidly as possible.
- If you can't (yet), call their bluff preemptively.
If you are afraid they will kick you out of the house, threaten to move out. If you are afraid they will stop paying for your tuition, threaten to drop out of college. Remember that cutting off your child is a dark and terrible thing to do, or have to do... it is much easier to threaten, or imply the threat of, than actually do.
They don't want to do it, not only because they love you, but because it a deeply humiliating thing for a parent to do. It implies a failure of the worst possible kind.
If you threaten them with it, then they cannot threaten you with it.
- Restrict access to information.
If they are the sort of parents you have to hold frame against, then they are on the lookout for weapons with which to undermine your will, your independence, your frame, your self-control, your confidence. Knowing what is going on with you, how you feel, what you want, provides them with opportunities. Tell them little or nothing.
- Never lose your temper.
If you become upset, you will be drawn into an argument. Calmly and firmly draw the line between acceptable and unacceptable and enforce it.
- Don't defend. Counterattack.
If they pull some bullshit, immediately focus on the bullshit they pulled. If they read your mail, it doesn't matter what they found out... what's now important is that they read your fucking mail and that's crazy. Doesn't matter that they found your steroids, what matters is that they went through your private stuff.
Put them on the defensive all the time.
- Don't hide conflict.
If they said your girlfriend dresses like a whore, let her know. Let her know the next time she and they are in the same room: "What do you think of this outfit, mom? Last time you said she was dressed like a whore. Still think so?"
Embarrass them with what they said. Show them that every piece of bullshit they pull, the whole extended family, and the whole world will know.
Problem parents use whatever hold they have over their adult children to do unacceptable shit. They use the privacy of family matters to create a world where the crazy seems commonplace. Let the world know.
Rot abhors sunlight.
- Most of all, hold the fucking line.
Never give an inch to keep the peace of avoid conflict. Peace without honour is not worth having.
Whisper
I have a Bitcoin donation address: 1DChc2Azt3zGHbZcwBwPG42jL9B8SuktdD.
It's there because I resent reddit passing the hat after I speak, and then giving me a gold sticker and keeping the hat for themselves.
Donate, or don't, as you wish, but please do not gild.
thesaucegod 8y ago
This is my first comment on here.
my mom called me out on spending too much money. I told her I understand why she feels this ways, but I'm still going to do what I please and that she going to have to accept it because this isn't going to change.
P.S. I spend my money on my developing my businesses, books, and my hobbies. She isn't really aware were my money is going, just that I spend it.
ASAP_Bickle 8y ago
Fantastic post.
I have been naturally gravitating to most of these behaviours ever since I turned 18, but I get the same counterattack which is like a nuke to my frame: "If you want to live under this roof, you'll come back here and ..."
In my situation I know it is a real threat that my parents will follow up on. Any advice on how to approach this kind of shit test?
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TheRainTransformed- 8y ago
I am in my early 20s and I believe this is even more important in our day and age. This is the first time in history that younger men see the world in a completely different perspective that our parents cannot relate to. It is like we are speaking in two different languages and for the most part the communication just gets more hostile because of our unorthodox approaches. They still offer invaluable knowledge, but the context has completely changed. Great write up Whisper.
Ishouldbeproducing 8y ago
This is the sad honest truth. My parents are late 50s, I'm 20 how do you think I feel ?
TheRainTransformed- 8y ago
I can understand where you are coming from, my dad is in his 50s and my mom in her 40s. They are both immigrants from Beirut, but are both hardworking and self made people. I have the utmost respect for them, but I was born and raised in Chicago in the modern age. It is extremely difficult to communicate with them sometimes because of the vast difference from our context. Most of the time I just don't bring up certain things because they just view things in a different light. It's not good or bad.. its just the situation that guys like us have to deal with
pingpongsam 8y ago
The real fun starts when you get around 40 yourself and all of a sudden your parents get way smarter and wise. When you are under 30 it's you, not them.
Archterus 8y ago
That generational gap is a real thing. I am 51, married with 4 kids aged 25 to 18. My wife occasionally starts up about they should this and that. I have to remind her that tectonic changes have occurred. Gender relations, technology, employment, the relentless, insidious creep of postmodernist relativism. Its a different world for you guys.
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Ishouldbeproducing 8y ago
It's glad to know there are parents like you actually because many parents that I do meet that are over 40 don't understand the generation and how times have changed. I used to have friends that were the image of how their parents generation shaped them not the best people i've encoutered.
Archterus 8y ago
Thanks. Though I know I can only speak through my own cultural and experiential reference, I really feel for the younger generation. So much uncertainty and the state of gender relations is fucked beyond belief. All the best to you, pm anytime.
[deleted] 8y ago
Right now I'm borrowing a car from my parents. At first they said they would hurt give it to me, but they conveniently forgot what they said at Christmas two years ago. I have 2k saved up, so I could get my own car, except my parents apparently put that money into an account I can't access till I'm 21 (even though it's money I earned from working). And are putting it off signing it over to me. They are southern baptist and recently found out I'm atheist. Not happy about it, so they told me if I want to stay I have to go to church. As well as pay for car insurance on a car I don't own, and phone bills on a phone I get two gigs a month on( they won't let me see the plan do I think they are overcharging me). I started working for my dad, but he pays me just enough to pay my bills.
I'm worried that taking any steps to become independent of them will cause them to kick me out. Also my mother fairly often disrespects me (example: I got home from a doctors appointment and didn't immediately tell her all the details of what went on, so she came to my room and said my name expecting me to then tell her everything she wanted to hear without telling me she wanted to hear anything, apparently I'm supposed to be psychic. So I asked "what" to which she blew up on me. I told dad but she hamstered it away in front of him, he threatened to kick me out until my brother agreed with me. Later he told me my mom is a sensitive person and I need to learn to respect that.)
I legitimately fear if I try to get a second job, pressure them further to let use my own money to buy a car for myself, or anything else that will make me more independent then I WILL be kicked into the street with only a sleeping bag and 2k I can't use till I'm 21.
Archterus 8y ago
Agree 100 percent with u/Whisper. Take control. Abandon the fantasy that all parents provide unconditional love. Steer your own course. I've treated MANY men that spend a vast amount of their adult life coming to terms with their childhood. Good luck
[deleted] 8y ago
Step 1: Get your own bank account. Forget the 2k. Step 2: Get a different job. Then you'll be in a position where you can move out.
Whisper 8y ago
"You own this house and this car, but you do not own my body. I will not be going to church. You do what you choose to do with your property."
Threaten to leave. If they ask where you will go, say that you will scrape by, and if you can't, there are plenty of homeless shelters out there.
He is deliberately keeping money tight in order to control you. Tell him you are quitting to find another so you will not have to be a financial burden on him.
You have abusive, controlling parents.
Get. Out.
Get out even if you have to pay a friend $100 a month to sleep on his couch. Doesn't matter. Get out.
Poverty now will be nothing but an adventure story to tell when you are 30. You can use it to pick up chicks.
Remaining will break you psychologically, and set you up for a life of failure. Get out.
Bielzabutt 8y ago
Yep I learned in high school that when dad offers you a gift, TURN IT DOWN. He only wants to hold if over your head and take is away when he wants to control you. Going AWAY to college was the best thing I ever did.
Hokuto199x 8y ago
Consider cultivating some other income online from home if needed. First thing is first though, you need to have a bank account at a different bank they don't know about. That's where all earnings need to go starting yesterday. They shouldn't have been able to "move the money" on your behalf unless you were a minor, even then that goes against my senses of ethical/moral behavior.
[deleted] 8y ago
I was a minor then, and no internet at home. I have to get on my phone at coffee shops. Can't get a laptop for the same reason I can't get a car
[deleted] 8y ago
The best advice I can give you is to spend as much time away from your parents as possible, for your own mental health. My parents are a lot like yours, and /u/Whisper is absolutely right when he says being with them breaks you psychologically.
Once you get past the hard part and manage to free yourself, don't let them back into your life. They won't change, and they don't deserve you. Also, it's probably a good idea to look into some therapy (I know there's a stigma around it but honestly, most people could use therapy and especially people with parents like yours).
Godspeed.
disgruntledearthling 8y ago
There's a lot I don't agree with in this post and comments but probably not for the reasons you guys think. I can relate with a lot of what was said - I was thrown out at 18 from my overly-aggressive dad's home and went to live with my mother for a few years. I'm also a parent of 2 girls aged 20 and 16.
I see a common thread in these posts that stem from the failure of the parent to guide and let go of the child into young adulthood. But there's also an understandable part of the blame on the child - as young males you guys aren't equipped yet (experienced and biochemically developed) in dealing with this natural parental conflict.
But I see most of the blame on the parent's inability to let go. However, try to keep in mind that parents are human and not provider-robots placed on earth for your benefit. They've got their own pile of shit to deal with in their heads and life and they probably haven't resolved this. They probably have shitty lives too. So this will leak out on you.
The kids with more maturity might try discussing the 'letting-go' aspect with the parent but that's tough to do at that age. I've seen it done so it is possible. There's probably very little adult-to-adult respect between the two at that time in their lives.
I started the letting-go exercise relatively early with my kids. My ex didn't but she had her own fucked-up issues to deal with first. I think I've handled it pretty well but I still get the urge to yell at them when they leave their dirty dishes on the kitchen table. Some things you just got to keep inside - its part of the deal of being a parent that you should have realized when you took the job...
I guess what I'm try to get to is there's probably a lot more room for rational discussion than you realize, and probably a lot less need for RP strategising against your parents.
Remember, if they're not too fucked up they're going to be in your lives for the next 40 years. If they are too fucked up, then yeah, next them asap. That's what I did with the old man and never looked back.
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PapaBravo 8y ago
I've got a bad feeling about a lot of this advice. I'm a tuned-in father of four, and I tell you what: If one of my kids treated me the way you're being advised here ( which I read as disrespectful and provocative ) it would escalate in what one might call an unhealthy fashion. I pay the bills and that shit wouldn't stand. At all.
Take care of yourself, just think through the advice you're getting here and how it might or might not be biased. Good luck.
RedPillDad 8y ago
I share your perspective. Parenting is a shitty deal. It's a 20 year enslavement that encourages bluepill immersion just to emotionally tolerate the banality that becomes your life. That's also what makes parenting a worthy test of your mettle. I find raising winners tougher than being a winner.
BloodRoseTRP 8y ago
The thing is, the demographics this site and sub cater towards consists mostly of younger ages. There are much less extreme measures one can take to garner respect, but, the advice suggested here gets more impact, and faster too. I think many of the suggested points won't work well for a functional family (interpret that as you will), but does work for dysfunctional ones. Family dynamics stem all stem from respect, or lack thereof, and I think the intent of this post is for the readers to command respect from their parents as quickly as possible
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[deleted] 8y ago
I sometimes think its the nature of most mothers to keep owtership of her children until they fight back. And I do mean fight. They'll simply never respect you as a person until you stomp on the boundaries.
sodainthewatercup6 8y ago
That's called establishing your physical dominance. As joked about as it is on Reddit, it is still a very necessary tool. You spoke with action that day.
thisishowiwrite 8y ago
I think we all know why it's looked down upon on Reddit. It's the old "If you don't have it and can't get it, deride it".
Orig_analUse_rname 8y ago
Hmm they do the same thing with the wealthy and powerful...
[deleted] 8y ago
ah the perils of democracy
thisishowiwrite 8y ago
It's worse in Australia. Any aspirations for wealth or power, or basically any plans to better yourself, are scoffed at. Tall poppy syndrome is rife in this country.
MoltenPhoenix 8y ago
Same in Brazil. People see success and see dirty hands, instead of hard work.
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malthuswaswrong 8y ago
I don't like this post. If you are of the age where your parents are a "problem" you need to have enough self awareness to distinguish between exercising your agency and being a spoiled brat. The difficulty is that a spoiled brat rarely recognizes his own nature.
If you live at home with your parents or they are paying any of your bills then you really aren't a man yet and have some groundwork to do first.
IASGame 8y ago
The book "When I say no I feel guilty" covers this with some specific examples. It was already mentioned by someone else. It also covers other scenarios and more importantly, specific techniques like "fogging" that are very useful to deal with shit tests and other stuff in LTRs and other interactions (with salespeople, at work, etc.).
One of the best examples in the book is a dude whose own dad pressured him to stay in a bad marriage.
[deleted] 8y ago
holy shit thank you, this is exactly what I needed, made an asktrp post a few days earlier and got good answers, but this is even better.
max_peenor 8y ago
I don't understand why any male would argue with a female. There is no point to it. You will never "win." You cannot craft her emotional context with a well thought out argument. They are two very different ways of thinking and they just don't mix.
If you disagree, put your position on the table. Answer any clarifications, but don't explain yourself beyond your point. Listen to her points. Maintain frame. Make your decision on how to proceed. Sometimes, you will have to relent, because you can't always have it your way. And sometimes you will be wrong and will have to fix it. Arguing about it does NOTHING.
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TomFoo 8y ago
Power isn't always about overpowering through a difficult situation but also includes the ability and option to walk away, detach.
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My_Dog_Jax 8y ago
I'll never forget this... When I was about twenty I was dating this girl and was staying over her house(we went to college together but this was on break). Father was a skinny military guy and didn't like the idea of staying over(I had once before and fucked his daughter in her bed). So he tries to put me on the couch with some excuse like his parents were visiting the next week and he didn't want to mess the room up.
I took it completely in stride, but said that my back would hurt sleeping on the couch and I'd just grab a hotel tonight not a big deal. I then sat back and let my girlfriend and her mother do all the work for me. Girlfriend bitched to mother while we were out at lunch. Mother most have bitched to father, because when we arrived back the guest bedroom was all made up!
And yes I fucked her that night too.
[deleted] 8y ago
Where were you when I graduated highschool?
Solid post with life lessons on parenting too
Thank you
angryomlette 8y ago
Thanks for the post whisper...Needed it...
Try a mom who 'll compare you with your cousins for not scoring well in your exams and stuff, constantly nagging, dropping hints that your inadequate and constantly complaining how she's in pain and disappointment just because of your divorce...nag nag...and yea etc
I was lately afraid my Mom could see through my actions, like me moving out and was equally afraid I was not holding frame properly ( I work with my dad). And i really need this post as my mom loves to rinse and repeat every action. Reinforces whatever decisions I had taken..
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YukariTakeba 8y ago
Jump out of the car, force them to leave... Or simply keep your mouth shut until you can leave. If you don't invest yourself in the argument there is not argument.
Elodrian 8y ago
There is something severely wrong with all the posts in this thread. Your family should be your inner circle. Last line of defence against the world. Everyone is talking about plotting against each other and estrangement and power struggles.
Family; I do not think this word means what you think it means.
Spiral-knight 8y ago
Not all family is created equal. That said family also does not, nor should it ever put people above or outside how you interact with the rest of the world.
Your mother is exactly as capable of shit-testing, spreading bullshit and generally being insufferable as any plate
Your father can turn white knight-y and try to bring you down just as readily as strangers.
In an ideal world this won't happen and for some people it never does. The OP is talking for men who need to redress how they deal with their kin.
egm03 8y ago
Dude I totally get that family should be your og homies, but occasionally it so happens that some people have family members that aren't positive to be around.
Planner_Hammish 8y ago
I agree that is what family ought to be! But that's not how it worked out for mine. Just because someone shares the same DNA doesn't give them the right to treat you poorly or to abuse you, and does not obligate you to put up with it if they do that anyway.
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Archterus 8y ago
The word may have retained its true meaning for you. However for many it is toxic. Its just another reality that many of us have to confront when pealing back the onion of self understanding. I agree with the ideal you put forth, your family should be your refuge. But alas.
TheMGhandi 8y ago
I remember before I was going to university, my dad was pissed I wasn't on top of the application deadlines. He freaks out and starts to shout at me once I say "I don't care". Right after that, my mom told me that whenever your parents gets mad at you, that I should just walk out of the room.
Flip side is, whenever I pissed her off after that, she keeps telling me not to walk away from her. Hilarious when I look back at it.
Still, thanks a lot for this post Whisper. My cousins have a lot of issues with their single moms and I give them tips on how to deal with her bs. Your post was just a clearer message in how they can stop being miserable and focus on their futures.
[deleted] 8y ago
If your parents mistreat you, just excuse yourself from the room. Parents are less willing than you to walk away because they're your parents. They'll adjust their behavior to keep you around. It'll get you more respect and it takes zero skill.
Tyrone_Shekelstein 8y ago
My divorced parents used to bicker with me over whose house I would attend on holidays. I told them to act like reasonable adults or I wouldn't show up. After skipping one Thanksgiving and Christmas, they're always extremely respectful and considerate towards me and my time.
eccentricrealist 8y ago
Whenever I stop a punch my mother accuses me of hitting her and says she'll call the police. I moved out to my dad's for a month after that. Came back and it stopped for a good while. She got abusive once I was sick (ultra painful sick) but then she came around when she realized it was fucked up.
Orig_analUse_rname 8y ago
My mom didn't do that. I hate my family. Their behavior goes against nature.
Bielzabutt 8y ago
I've learned (the hard way) that it's ok to avoid family if they're toxic to you.
sezamus 8y ago
My parents sabotaged every fucking decision I was making. I wanted to go to secondary technical school of mechanical engineering, so I went to typical high school, coz it teaches you better for final exams (newspaper bullshit). I'm glad I choosed my university well and even got offer to work there at.
But what I always wanted in my whole life since I was 4, was to be soldier. A madafakin Chuck Norris and Rambo. My parents never wanted that for me: "Only stupid people go to army!" Still I tried to get myself to officer's school. My tests were falsificated (welcome to Poland where shit hits the fan) thus I took a civillian road to a degree, counting on to be an officer in a future. Government got worse, new regulations came and there's very little chance for me to be an officer or even a subofficer, but still I can be a PFC. I went through a boot camp (found out I'm a great shooter) and I realized while crawling in a mud, getting freezed and kicked ass that it is excatly what I want and even in this shit of what is now in the army, I want to be a soldier even as a PFC. My parents go batshit crazy "what about you degree? you want to be a loser? you could earn more money as an engineer!" I have an engineer degree but dont want to have lot of money that I would spend to make me happy for some short time. I know that it's better for me to go my own way even tough it won't pay a lot, but all those money I can save and invest being happy with myself and with what I do.
Salutes
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I'll be leaving in a few weeks if I don't start making more money like dad says I will. But what would you have me do about my brother? He's gay, as well as atheist, and I know they are going to treat him worse after I leave.
RPB1 8y ago
This came at just the right time. I've been doing this with my overbearing toxic narcissist of a father (who has a good heart though it's subverted by his innumerable character defects), but didnt have the awareness to articulate what I was doing.
This happened right over the New Year's where I had to assert myself and remove myself from the situation, and at times I felt bad and doubted whether or not I was being a pain-in-ass youngster or if he had in fact crossed the line (after some introspection I realize that I am right in enforcing healthy boundaries and he was out of line), but seeing this reaffirms my convictions on that.
Thanks for codifying into words what's been an instinctual adaptation; now I know better than to be routed into meaningless arguments.
don_pel 8y ago
Nice. And answering the readings question, read "when I say no I feel guilty"
Purecorrupt 8y ago
You really do have to set boundaries and "punish bad behavior" as you say.
/Begin rant
My father is very much so a decision maker. This is good until you're part of it, but get zero input. Unless you're my mother or some other women and don't really want to give input (You know just complain instead).
When I graduated college I was disgruntled (well I still am but its whatever) about working / find work / etc. My father would always bring up how much I got paid, because I told him how much I made. He would use it to either say I "should be happy" or show off to other people and put me in positions like "Tell them how much you make".
It made me angry for 2 reasons.
1) Don't compare me to other people. I don't fucking care about them. If I wanted to feel better I'd jack one and take a nap. The whole "It could be worst?" Oh fuck right off. It could be BETTER! Am I striving for worst or mediocre?
2) There is zero benefit for me when telling other people how much I make. If you want to brag to make yourself "feel good" tell them my occupation not my salary. If they really cared about how much I made they could ballpark how much I make with 30 minutes of research.
He has no idea how much I make now. The last time (Christmas) he tried to nicely ask me how much I make I said "I am not telling you." He looked a bit disgruntled and then said he needed to know. I sort of smirk/chuckled and said "No" while walking away and went back in the house (he was grilling).
My mother is another story, but it's much easier to troll her and just not take her seriously than require a hard boundary.
/End Rant