Intro: I read a post the other day on this sub that was essentially urging people to train until they’re extremely sore. This is terrible advice that could even hinder your gains or the way you train and should not be heeded at all.
Body: Brad Schoenfeld, who holds a PhD in exercise science, put out a paper in 2013 that studied the effect of DOMS on muscular adaptation. You can read that piece online (https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/72d4/947f03f2879bbf3531759b525ebcd2a0aa50.pdf?_ga=2.20288824.145494800.1542817449-1554432633.1542817449). Yesterday, he also made an Instagram post citing some key points from the study.
- There is a poor correlation between DOMS and EIMD (exercise-induced muscular damage).
A study by Warren et. al in 1999 found that pain did not correlate well with muscle damage (having trouble finding that study). Another study by Nosaka et. al in 2002 found that DOMS is a “poor reflector of... exercise-induced muscle damage” (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/12453160/). Finally, Yu et. al in 2004 found evidence of myofibril remodeling rather than damage as a result of DOMS (https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ji-Guo_Yu/publication/7449727_Evidence_for_myofibril_remodeling_as_opposed_to_myofibril_damage_in_human_muscles_with_DOMS_An_ultrastructural_and_immunoelectron_microscopic_study/links/0fcfd50ff9cf93ca2d000000.pdf).
- There may be a genetic component to DOMS where some people barely get sore while other get REALLY sore.
For example, I’ve been training for well over a year, and I can’t remember the last time I’ve experienced DOMS; since revamping my training, I’ve increased all my lifts by 15 lbs in a month. On the contrary, a lot of people I see lift tend to feel a stupid amount of DOMS and have gone to the gym longer than I have.
- High levels of soreness indicate that you’ve exceeded the capacity to repair muscle, impede your training, and decrease motivation to train.
Volume matters. If you’re not training optimally at consistently high levels, then you will inevitably experience lesser gains than someone who is. By being overly sore, you won’t be able to lift for high levels of volume. I’m a personal example of this. My training used to suck over the past year. I had set up a program for myself that ultimately spelled disaster. I wasn’t training optimally, but was training at what I considered high levels. Once I revamped my entire routine, I’ve made much better muscular gains while on a cut, and have begun to appear bigger. I train in half the time I used to but still have made much more significant progress in a fraction of the time. Volume matters, soreness doesn’t.
Lessons Learned
- Lesson 1: Extreme pain does not result in gains.
- Lesson 2: Mild degrees of soreness, according to Brad, are acceptable.
- Lesson 3: You can still have a good workout without being sore as hell afterwards.
- Bonus Lesson: Assess your progress on lifts by comparing them using www.strengthlevel.com.
Metalgear222 5y ago
Yes, DOMS is a response from the body that represents a STRUGGLE to recover/repair, not an INABILITY to recover/repair. I've been training into DOMS for 3 years now and have made significant progress the only times I didn't have DOMS was when I was on powerlifting routines. These increased my strength but took a toll on physique.
The more important question to ask is what is your goal? Whereas a powerlifter who wants strength has absolutely no reason to train to DOMS, someone who wants an aesthetic/bodybuilder physique and trains with higher volume at 5 pyramid sets of 12 for 90 mins to 2 hours is much more likely to train into DOMS.
The number 1 key factor that wasn't mentioned anywhere in here is NUTRITION. Nutrition IS and always WILL be the fucking king of deciding results. OP saying he made more muscular gains on a caloric deficit is either confused or full of shit. If you train into DOMS but you have your nutrition/macros locked in perfectly at a slight caloric surplus, you WILL experience solid gains.
On top of this, the SECOND biggest deciding factor for acquiring DOMS is how many times a week you train that muscle. NOT the amount of volume you do on a muscle on a particular day.
If you're on a 5-6 day split training 1 muscle a week. You're almost guaranteed to have some level of DOMS no matter how you're training. If you are doing something that incorporates more full body or legs every other day, you'll notice DOMS stops after about 2 weeks completely because the body has adapted to the need to be exerted faster than the normal recovery time 24-72 hours (depending on a variety of factors.)
Let's not forget there are so many degrees of intensity for DOMS too. Obviously, not being able to walk up or down stairs would be a bad thing for someone training anytime over 2 months, it would tell me that your nutrition and sleep are off and need adjusting. Having some significant soreness on day 2 after you set a new squat PR for 5 reps is probably NOT representing that you're overtraining. Again, I cannot stress enough that ALL of this comes second to nutrition.
wiffofass 5y ago
I train 4-5 time a week 110%. I either go there to fuck shit up or I don't go at all. Then again... I'm on tren :)
_A_L_3_X_ 5y ago
as with everything too much is bad, but if i am not at least a little sore after a training i know i havent trained well
DeontologicalSanders 5y ago
Good post. Not a lot of peer-reviewed, repeatable studies have been done on the causes and effects of DOMS. It good that you relied on them, and not on bro-science. It's important to remember that soreness is never there for no reason: when you're sore, your body is always trying to tell you something. Overdoing it in the gym and being unbearably sore the next day isn't necessarily a good thing. Not being able to walk up stairs sucks. Working out when you're that sore can result in injury. Really overdo it, and you can end up with rhabdomyolisis, which can kill you.
I find occasionally working out to the point of extreme soreness, particularly after periodization, to be quite helpful. If you hit a plateau, take 5-10 days off in a row, and then come back and work out even harder. For me, shocking the muscles after time off almost always results in improved adaptation over the next few weeks.
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zyqkvx 5y ago
What's periodization? when you work out for 3 months, stop for 6. Repeat?
I'm not as noob as I'm coming off in here, but have a lot of patch work needed.
DeontologicalSanders 5y ago
Jake le Dog explained it concisely. In addition to lowering the weights and working back up from time to time, stopping altogether for 5-10 days is helpful. The only reason to ever stop training for 6 months would be to rehabilitate a serious injury.
Jake_le_Dog 5y ago
Depending on your advancement in training you need to periodize your work around peaking performance. Lifting your 1RM day-after-day will induce fatigue, so you want to avoid that, as it may even lead to atrophy. To facilitate recovery, but still cause appropriate levels of adaptation you want to work with "slightly" lower weights, building up to your peak (PR). For intermediates, like myself this usually takes only a week. For advanced lifters periodization may occur over months.
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trentrez95 5y ago
Joe Rogan has a great podcast with a renound mma trainer Firas Zahabi (trained GSP) where they dicuss exactly this.. won't go into much more detail other than saying the bottom line is this. A man that trains 5 days a week at 50% compared to man that trains 3 days a week at 100% puts himself at greatly reduced risk of injury and accumulates many more training days by the end of the year.
adminsaregayniggers 5y ago
That only applies with specific skill training, not general strength and muscle gain. It's true for him because he trains MMA fighters, who definitely benefit from more hours of practice
trentrez95 5y ago
Another JRE podcast I found to be very education is the one posted below. The second guest George Lockhart has a ton of experience helping fighters cut weight before bouts which can be a very hard thing to accomplish.
Plus if you didn't already know about POST workout caffeine now you do. Surprised no one has mentioned it yet.
https://youtu.be/ARAT9HQY6e4
JaFaRr9 5y ago
I was literally going to comment this. It's called flow training.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cj4hdIGbDHs&frags=pl%2Cwn
kylerosa21 5y ago
That’s the exact video I was referring to! Haha
JaFaRr9 5y ago
Great minds think alike! ????????
Easily one of my favourite Joe Rogan podcasts. Love the part where they go all philosophical and talk about Determinism vs Free Will.
farshadnm 5y ago
they were talking about training for fighting in ring though, not particularly working out.
DarkMountain666 5y ago
Exactly, this wasn't about general fitness, where you might feel more muscular strain in general.
EL_Miore 5y ago
Bodybuilding =/= general fitness. Bodybuilding is in fact a recipe for increased aging. The idea of Cryogenics comes from slowing the body to an absolute stillness, thus preventing it from motion.
DarkMountain666 5y ago
How is bodybuilding exactly a recipe for increased aging? I've never heard of that.
I know about cryogenics, I've always was interested in it. But it still needs a lot of development to be viable for the general public.
EL_Miore 5y ago
Look at all so called fitness gurus in their 40's who are extremely lean but have gray hairs already. Athlean-X, for example, he looks good, I guess? But how far does that take one..
Bodybuilding increases growth at a rapid pace, at an unnatural pace. It's too taxing on the nerves, and the body has to work overtime, all the time, to keep up with repairs. This is a recipe for deterioration and decay, as aside from bodybuilding, these individuals do not engage in activities that halt the flow of entropy. They even over eat because the body needs it, and they do not properly combine their foods. They take their Macro and Micro counts for the day and care not how they get them. One who eats 30% less calories lives 30% longer.
Even bodybuilders themselves, who have since gone to take a substance like DMT, like Dorian Yates, for ex., have left their Bodybuilding regimen and focus on Yogas, Martial Arts and light, maintenance excercises.
The idea of being fit is not just to be "healthy", it is to "fit" in nature. To be "fit" is to be "fit" to replace God. Fitness is worthiness. One who practices a well rounded regimen, of Yogas, Meditations, Energy Work, Martial Arts/Chi excercises, creative and destructive expressions, Cardios, potent forms of Sperm Retention and Resistance training that incorporates all 7 types of strength, not just Maximal Force like Bodybuilders, is more "fit" than the bodybuilder, due to his worthiness.
It all depends on what one wants. A chiseled and lean look can exponentially increase N count while young, sure. If that's what the individual in question seeks, then by all means. However, this is not the only finish line.
inexorable_stratagem 5y ago
I really appreciate your post. Where can I learn more about some of the stuff u are talking about ?
EL_Miore 5y ago
I can point you in a direction, young seeker; the Omniverse will guide you from there.
Start by grabbing a free pdf online of this book: The Kybalion by The Three Initiates.
inexorable_stratagem 5y ago
This seems interesting!
Thanks, i will read that book
MyReddit6 5y ago
Dude your a legend and deep af. thinking bout them existential gainz
Reynaldo7 5y ago
More time spent being sore = less time building muscle. Muscle only grows for 48 hours after it got stimulation, if you're sore for a whole day, you're missing out on a lot of gainz.
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askmrcia 5y ago
I was literally going to comment the same thing. If I go two weeks without working out and then all of a sudden do some weight lifting, I'll be sore for a few days.
But other than that I'm usually never sore even if I dead lift or squat more than I normally would.
It sucks, but it's one of the main reasons I hate going on vacation. I know after the first workout I'll be sore
ILikeToBurnMoney 5y ago
For me it already happens after a 1 week break
wholewheatdirtydog 5y ago
The only time I've ever had DOMS was my first ever workout in the gym
SKRedPill 5y ago
Muscles are destroyed in the gym, fed in the kitchen and built in sleep. I repeat, muscles are not built in the gym itself. Overtraining is real.
DOMS is quite easy to fix if you ramp up the intensity patiently and it should be gone after a couple of weeks. Sometimes warmups and some blood flow going to the muscles can fix it as well.
Taking a scoop of protein just after the workout and before going to bed also keeps you pain free next morning.
Also it's not just the muscles, it's also the ligaments, tendons, and the nervous system that needs to recover from a workout - it's that nervous system especially that needs the long term break to recover from fatigue. Taking a week's break every 3 months with ample rest is what Mike Matthews recommends (https://www.muscleforlife.com/).
One can try the 5 day split, the 4 day split or the 3 day split and mix and match with some amount of cardio and HIIT. Mike himself trains probably 6 hours a week (including cardio) and it works.
LayingWaste 5y ago
the best results ive had are when i do 3 warmup sets and then 3 working sets to aboslute failure 1-20 rep range and changing it every time you hit the muscle again. obviously if you go to failure, then each set you do after will likely decrease by 1-2 reps before you fail. for example if i were benching 225 for 5, 4, 3 with a 2-5 min gap between sets.
i then move onto another exercise for that muscle group and lift relatively light 3x15 just to get some blood flowing in the muscle and feel a good pump. This is not to failure. i walk out of the gym.
i spend 1/3 the time i used to in the gym and look twice as good.
zyqkvx 5y ago
Delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS) is the pain and stiffness felt in muscles several hours to days after unaccustomed or strenuous exercise. The soreness is felt most strongly 24 to 72 hours after the exercise.
HeyDontDoxMe 5y ago
And this 'should' go away after 30-60 days of continuous exercise.
After this phase, gainz galore.
zyqkvx 5y ago
Right, been there. Just didn't know it was called DOMS. I shocked my friend circles with gainz and ramped respect. It's not brain science, just brain damage for those 'too smart to gain'. Good timely information that others will read.
hidemyface1234 5y ago
One mild additional consideration. Occasionally training into the DOMS range can help with building mental toughness and "frame" (I will do one more rep, I will go to the gym irrespective of how I feel).
David goggins talks about "callouses on my mind". Terribly tough stuff makes us terribly tough...
lukkassu 5y ago
I'm on a long cut (from a life of being a massive fatass) and you get huge mental toughness boosts from prolongued fasting. 6 days is my peak so far but right now I'm fasting until Christmas.
Not recommended for people with low bodyfat.
xachariah 5y ago
Can you describe what you changed more specifically to avoid DOMS and improve your lifts?
Eg, did you move from a 5/3/1 to a brosplit (or reverse)? Reduce weight or volume or reps (or a combination)? How has your total time spent in the gym been shifted?
kylerosa21 5y ago
I can’t tell you what I did to avoid DOMS, but I can tell you what I’ve been doing to improve lifts.
Nutrition-wise, I redid my macros to be 35% carb, 30% protein, and 35% fat which remains consistent whether I’m on a bulk or cut. This has helped simplify my macro count and has helped me gain muscle. Training-wise, I adopted Phrak’s variant of Greyskull LP. The progression for that program is described in a post you can find on the Fitness subreddit wiki. In general, my training change went from higher reps and less weight, to less reps and higher weights.
I had been doing 1 warm-up set (50% of what I was lifting) and 1 set of 8-12 reps, progressing when I hit 12 reps. I made a change to 3 sets of 5 reps, forcing a 5 lb progression each time I did a certain workout. I still include one warm-up set at 50% of my 5RM for 8 reps to get used to the movement. I’m about 6 weeks into the 12-week program and plan to switch to a 5-3-1 routine when I’m done.
xachariah 5y ago
I appreciate the response, and I'll definitely check some of that out.
ELI3k 5y ago
I’m confused here. Arnold states that the last 2-3 reps is what spurs muscle growth. Implying that training to failure is key for muscle gains.
blacklightsleaze 5y ago
Arnold is a bullshit talker. I would never listen to roid heads, they are just ridiculous. The thing is on steroids there is no wrong move, you can have shit training and shit diet and still gain muscle.
adminsaregayniggers 5y ago
OP's link is about DOMs which have little to nothing to do with training to momentary muscle failure, he just added a garbage misleading title
SKRedPill 5y ago
I know Arnold wrote the Bible on exercise, but since the entire bodybuilding world is on steroids, that changes everything. With steroids you could recover overnight and train even 7 days a week. There are side effects though. It's why Ronnie Coleman's on a wheelchair now.
d6x1 5y ago
He's on a wheelchair because he squat 800 lbs
Fulltilt_Ronny 5y ago
this guy got it right. You CAN NOT compare the Training and Regeneration Phase of someone on drugs with someone doing his shit natural. you wanna go full tryhard mucle gainzZz ? go roids. wanna stay fit and healthy? do not go roids and dont go full tryhard Training beast mode
Chaddeus_Rex 5y ago
Yes you can compare. You can recover over night if youre high T and eat well. If youre a low T faggot, no shit you dont recover.
adonai1828 5y ago
There's a difference between hitting muscle failure during a workout and pushing through it into extreme gain. Muscle failure during reps is alright, as long as you stretch and lay off after you hit muscle failure. I think OP is referring to people who will hit muscle failure and keep going, i.e., if Arnold were to train to failure on those last 2-3 reps and then do a few more sets.
EDIT: basically, don't train so hard you can't take your own shirt off or walk up steps the next day, still feeling it like a week later, know when to quit
ELI3k 5y ago
Thanks for the input. I usually feel my lower body lifts for two days after. I use 531 BBB with the last heavy set as an AMRAP which I do to form failure. Stairs are hell but I get by. I tend to still make gains but I’m always looking for ways to get the most out of my workouts.
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kylerosa21 5y ago
Look up Phrak’s Greyskull LP variant. That’s what I’m on right now and it’s excellent
rosbergsessa420 5y ago
Yeah its just inefficient. The difference between mildly sore and extremely sore, in terms of gains, isn't very significant. Pain (just like the hearing and other functions) is logarithmic - the difference between not sore at all and midly sore, is much bigger than the one between mild to extreme. You might feel it hurts a lot but its just slightly more. Sure go ahead if it makes you feel the ultimate alpha because TRP says so, you aren't really squeezing that much.
Styles_Clash 5y ago
Articles like these are always good for either new guys just starting or as a reminders for experienced lifters to keep an eye on this.
Also important, to all you guys out there, STRETCH! Even when if you're not sore from doing high volume/intensity, it's always best to stretch before and especially after. Stress on the body accumulates, and post-workout stretching will help relieve it. In addition, you'll be prolonging your longevity and increase your chances of still being able to lift at an advanced age. If you can find or get a foam roller, that will work wonders on your body as well. Especially after heavy sessions
superyute 5y ago
I'd like some sources on stretching being effective/ideal prior to working out if you can afford it
RedHoodhandles 5y ago
Wrong and wrong.
Wrong.
And now you're making stuff up.
Here, have my downvote.
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Jake_le_Dog 5y ago
There's a lot of literature around leading to advise the opposite.
What I've learned is do warm up sets, which get the blood flowing and the muscles prepared for work. Also the nervous system rehearses the movement. And foam rolling on off days, cardio days, or after, but never during workout. Although Brett Gibbs does foam rolls before his sessions, so maybe he knows something.
As far as I've seen - but I may have not seen enough - Olympic weightlifters only do warm ups, and some roll their body parts up and down on a racked barbell.
omartrs 5y ago
Do not stretch when lifting, it is actually detrimental. What you should do however is do warm up reps of the movements you will be doing, to practice form and warp up the body.
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Foam or stretching when you are not lifting is ok.
DigitalDragonSlayer 5y ago
Was told by the local gym coach to do dynamic stretches to warm up and static stretches to wind down at the end. Any thoughts on that?
Styles_Clash 5y ago
Me personally, I wouldn't separate by labeling them. A stretch is a stretch to me, but sounds about right. I'm not a certified coach, but have learned a lot of warmups from doing things like jiu jitsu and Oly lifting. Experiment and see which exercises work best for you or just plain like better and incorporate them more often.
zyqkvx 5y ago
What's the definition of 'volume'?
Are you saying a 3 reps of 100 (300) has more volume than 2 reps of 120 (240)?
kylerosa21 5y ago
Yes, but you also need to account for the amount of sets.
Volume is SETS x REPS x WEIGHT
zyqkvx 5y ago
Right. I wanted to give a reduced example to make sure volume meant what I think it meant.
Thanks.
As a side note, volume is how I always did it. Yours info is liberating to me because so many others in the gym do high weight / not many reps. Which by my estimates fosters asymmetry, and slow, non-nuanced bulky muscles. I read up on working out. What I can't find or don't believe I have to speculate.
Sumsar01 5y ago
How your muscles look is genetic. Just go read the free e-book "the bridge" from barbell medicin. It will teach you more than you will learn in these comments.
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reubenc98 5y ago
That’d be tonnage. More importantly, intensity should be considered. At the very minimum you need to be above 65% of your 1RM whatever reps.
Not having a go but you should pick up a copy of Practical Programming for Strength Training by Rippetoe, in fact everyone who lifts seriously should.
Edit:
Volume: sets x reps Tonnage: sets x reps x weight
1by1is3 5y ago
'Volume' by its very definition is 3 dimensional. i.e. sets x reps x weight
https://www.jtsstrength.com/understanding-volume/
Tonnage is simple slang word used by powerlifters for volume.
d6x1 5y ago
How do you calculate one's required tonnage?
reubenc98 5y ago
You don’t have a required tonnage. Over time however, you would want to increase it - more weight at the same reps or more reps at the same weight. Intensity and volume have a non-linear relationship so just try and focus on getting better every workout.
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reubenc98 5y ago
Typically around ~60% for GVT. But I cannot recommend it at all. It bears no advantage over 5x10 training. Also, I take issue for individuals doing such high volume training with no laid out progression scheme or the like. Form breakdown will be a serious issue.
For any beginner I highly recommend Starting Strength with some barbell curls and lying tricep extensions after every workout.
jwarner95 5y ago
Train to extreme soreness once every 2-3 weeks. Have periods of light exercise in between.
Zech4riah 5y ago
Some months ago there was some dude who genuinely thought that best way to train is to train until you puke or atleast then you know you have worked out hard enough. You should talk with him :D
Menchstick 5y ago
What do you think of training when extremely sore? I mean those times where the day after the workout I can barely close my palms or can't fully stretch some muscles. It feels like I should wait to recover but sometimes you need even 4 days to be back to normal and it feels like a waste of time.
sonnydanger 5y ago
You're not training enough. If you train 3~5 times a week your body adapts to the volume very quickly, and the soreness goes away. You'll also notice the soreness goes away when the blood starts circulating into the muscles or when you get a pump.
shredgnarrr 5y ago
Protein powder and veggies
lala_xyyz 5y ago
Not if you rest enough and eat properly. Soreness is a palpable indicator of muscle damage, which is one of the three elements of hypertrophy. By intensity and duration of soreness it's trivial to estimate whether you need to increase weights. I suspect that your entire post refers to steroid users with enhanced muscle repairs.
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shredgnarrr 5y ago
This happened to me after climbing about 4-5 days a week and lifting the other days for over 3 months. I was so burnt out I had to completely stop all activity for a few weeks to recover
SKRedPill 5y ago
That is definitely overtraining. It's not just the muscles, it's the nerves and ligaments and tendons as well that need to recover, and they take much longer to recover.
At the most a single muscle group is trained twice a week through different exercises. That's about the max. What you see soldiers being grilled through everyday is not for gainz, it's for mental strength and facing fatigue that will happen in an actual war.
stargrunt6 5y ago
and the cartilage in the joints
SwoleyMoleyFrijoley 5y ago
Additionally, use Fish oil, 10 caps a day, for DOMS. big difference in recovery ability.
Xoramung 5y ago
how many ml's in a cap a day? .5?