"If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle."
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Seduction is a Game
In order to win any game, you must make the opposing player lose. In the game of seduction, men and women play against each other.
To be clear, men and women aren't "opponents" in the sense that we hate each other, or want to do physical harm to each other. It's not like we decided to play against each other for the sheer sake of becoming opponents. Opponent. Enemy. Call it whatever the fuck you want. This is what the game has dictated that you are, and you don't get to change that.
Men and women are opponents in the game of seduction because we are attracted to each other. Women have something that men value (sexual access), and men have something that women value (commitment). The game of seduction is won by manipulating your opponent into providing you with something of greater value than you expend.
One of you can only gain something at the expense of the other player. To be clear, you can both have fun while being opponents, and in all likelihood you will. But you can't decide "we're not enemies since we're playing for fun :)" because guess what? You can't both win! In the game of seduction, the players who only play for fun - i.e. they play without a strategy - and therefore always lose are called Nice Guys and Whores. They both give away their love for free.
The players who play the Game to win - i.e. they play with a strategy - are called Players and Good Girls. The Player's sexual strategy is to maximize the number of higher-quality women who he plates (non-exclusive sexual partners), and his optional strategy is to fuck Whores (non-recurring sexual partners). The Good Girl's sexual strategy is to maximize the value of the man she associates with at any given time (either non-recurring, non-exclusive or exclusive sexual partner), and her simultaneous strategy is to maximize her number of Nice Guy orbiters (non-exclusive asexual partners).
Know the Enemy: How You Make Her Feel Determines How She Treats You
Women treat men based on how men make them feel. This is precisely the reason why so many men are unable to grasp Game - because women are illogical and therefore Game is illogical. From my experience, any particular woman will mentally categorize every man in her life into one of 3 categories, each of which directly affect her behaviors toward you:
(1) "He makes me feel unworthy"
In the beginning stages of meeting her: She'll either fuck you or avoid you.
Over the long-term: She'll eventually avoid you.
(2) "He makes me feel special"
In the beginning stages of meeting her: She won't fuck you, but will fuck other guys. You're her orbiter, and potentially a future LTR if she runs out of other options.
Over the long-term: If you're still her orbiter, she still won't fuck you, and she'll still fuck other guys. If you've been promoted to LTR, she'll fuck you until you've lost the status, and she'll likely still fuck other guys until then.
(3) She feels nothing toward you and therefore she'll ignore you.
Know Yourself: Pose as a Friend, But Work as a Philanderer
This is the brand of Game which I consider to be most effective. It's the perfect mix of categories 1 & 2. She won't be able to decide whether you make her feel unworthy or special, and so her hamster will land upon the conclusion that you must be a unicorn. Pull this off correctly and you'll be bringing her home that night.
Strategy
Verbally, you want demonstrate an acted-out politeness that makes her question whether or not you're actually attracted to her. In her mind, she'll think that maybe you "just want to be friends" with her and nothing more. This will make her question whether you're trying to make her feel special by feigning politeness, or if genuinely consider her to be unworthy because your interest in the conversation is constructed. In reality, you'll be doing a little bit of both - but her hamster will go crazy trying to categorize her feelings (and thus how she treats you) into one category or the other.
Behaviorally, through your interactions with her, the goal is to show her that you find her attractive (through your eyes), but that you're also scouting out the social landscape for other options. This will make her question whether or not you're actually attracted to her. In reality, you will be demonstrating an attraction to her, but you will also be demonstrating an attraction to other women besides her. You want her to think you're "above" her, she's not your best option, and therefore you're a higher value man who she's willing to compete for (i.e. fuck).
Tactics
Eye fuck her hard when speaking to her. When she speaks, alternate between eye fucking her and looking around slowly (your "hoe radar"). She'll pick up on this. If she likes you, start kino-ing her until you notice that she's starting to eye you harder, then go in for a kiss and make out with her aggressively. Subtly grab her neck, start progressively gripping harder ("take her breath away") and start rotating her head back and forth. Show enough dominance and control with this technique and you will easily fuck her later.
If kino-ing doesn't seem to be a good option at that point, proceed likewise: Say very little when responding to her and feign interest in what she's saying, as if you're "just being polite" because you haven't decided whether or not you like her yet (which could very well be true). The more fake your interest in the conversation seems, the better.
If she turns to talk to one of her friends for even a second, your initial reaction will be to scout out the area and start flirting with the next group of girls you see. Chances are, the initial girl will pick up on this and practically pounce on you shortly after.
Pose as a friend, but work as a philanderer. It sounds easy because it is. Because in the Game of seduction you're playing against women, and as we all know women can't beat men in anything.
"But Tits_Out! What about all the orbiters? Don't THEY all lose??" Of course they do. They compete with each other because they mistake their opponent for an ally. Play the Game against the wrong opponent and you'll lose - just ask all the orbiters who give away their time and attention for free.
Note: This brand of Game works best in social settings like a bar or a party, particularly when you're with a group of your bros. If their Game sucks, they'll supplicate and make you look better for standing back and being patient. If their Game is tight, you'll likely have better/more women to choose from.
trpill 8y ago
The looking around thing is one of my favs
Good to display uninterest
karmacrunch 8y ago
Game obviously works but I don't like spending too much time worrying about it.
When I was a bit younger (like a kid i.e 15, 16) I used to go to parties with the intention of hooking up with girl, by that time I'd been exposed to PUA companies like RSD and the like. I ate it all up, it was very effective.
But ultimately game is very narrow, game is essentially salemanship, whilst its important to learn to be a good salesman, its imperative to improve the product. I think TRP is much more about improving the product and teaching men to improve themselves which no only benefits you with women but in other areas of your life whilst game is just cheap salesmanship.
Smitty6 8y ago
In the end it's not about women but about how you are improving yourself as a man. Women just kind of takes care of itself if your evolving and growing as a man. Game also takes care of itself because you are putting your values to a high standard. One that most women cannot even think about. If you get to that level your SMV is very high and getting pussy is the least of your worries.
moosevice_dot_com 8y ago
Well said. Improve the product, improve the marketing, improve the pussy options.
unassumingusername7 8y ago
Good salesman with a Corvette gets $60k. Good salesman with a Geo Metro gets $2k. They both sell, but you get a lot more for a quality product.
EurasianAesthetics 8y ago
The strongest relationship I ever had (where my gf was completely and utterly obsessed and under my complete control) was when I combined the extremes of 1 and 2 together.
I would make her cry, tell her I didn't like her, call her names and told her I was going to leave. Then as soon as she told me it was done and we were breaking up, i'd write her love letters, give her flowers and basically White knight her like crazy and be beta as hell. Then rinse and repeat every 2 weeks.
Years later she still tells me she has never felt the same again with anyone else. What also makes things interesting is that she thinks it was the love letters and flowers and beta stuff that made her obsessed with me, but it was all the abuse and blacknighting that did lol.
What's more interesting still was that I invoked both AF and BB traits. So after hardly knowing each other she wanted to get pregnant and said i'd make a 'good father' lol
ShitfacedBatman 8y ago
Nope, they don't value a man's commitment. They value a man's resources - perhaps the "commitment" to providing resources.
Commitment makes it sound like women have "morals." They don't. Remember this: women are fundamentally whores in that they trade sex for resources - be it money, clothes, food, furniture, jewelry, vacation, a-father-to-raise-help-raise-children, - whatever they want or need. A man's willingness to commit only aides a woman socially in that it shows she's a "good" girl - a whore for just 1 man - and not a ridiculous whore who needs more than 1 man. In this day and age, women may indeed be applauded for being "bad" girls - their abilities to get different men to do different things for them.
Don't lift a finger for a woman unless you get to stick it in her pussy.
TheRedPilsner 8y ago
I like how Mark Manson put it in his book Models: He said something like "Seduction is the process of making a woman more invested in you than you are in her."
thealphonse 8y ago
I'm wondering how you all manage to not have guilt in seducing a woman -- she falls for you but you still aren't interested in commitment.
This is where I am often, and because of my lingering beta-ness I hesitate to sleep with them for fear of causing unclear expectations, ie., she thinks you're her boyfriend.
Edit* - I should know the answer because it's all over this sub. If I'm really the prize she won't be heartbroken to have slept with me and still not possess me. Instead she'll want to do it again to strengthen her case.. and if she's not causing me problems, I won't stop her from trying.
RU_Crazy 8y ago
Just remind yourself this is what feminism fought for all this time. You are just fulfilling their stated wishes and allowing the woman to be an adult and make "mistakes".
oldredder 8y ago
I just have no ability to feel guilt because I've done nothing wrong.
Why do you feel guilty? Did you do something wrong?
User-31f64a4e 8y ago
Feminists bullshit about "internalized misogyny."
That's what you have done, in reverse. You are somehow thinking that women need to be made happy and get what they want. You have internalized women's reproductive strategy and rejected your own.
Why should you feel guilty? Because you executed the male strategy (got sex) instead of her executing hers (giving commitment)?
Why should you feel any more guilty that a woman who gets an orbiter? Women are happy to get all sorts of male commitment even without doling out pussy.
Also, fear of unclear expectations? wtf? Your concern is your wants and needs, not her confusion or lack of. The only thing you need to be concerned with in this regard is false rape accusations - so make sure the consent is somehow documented. Texts/emails/etc a lass Nungesser may be the way to go.
heyjay86 8y ago
You could also think about it this way:
Your goal as a man is to fuck as many women as you can. That's your genetic imperative.
Now, who defines which maxim is superior to the other? There's no reason to be ashamed just because women and society tells you that her goals are worthier than yours...
unassumingusername7 8y ago
The alternative is to be more invested in her then she is in you. Even if you do intend to LTR her, giving her the power just doesn't work.
It's not as enticing as a fairytale where we're all equal and in love forever, but it's the best kind of relationship that this universe offers.
hillstaffer69 8y ago
The best way to insure that there are no "unclear expectations" is to be very clear and direct about your own expectations (ie. that you don't have expectations, you're having fun)
supitsLoki 8y ago
Honesty. If she knows what she's getting into, it's her responsibility to decide whether or not to pursue.
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Movonnow 8y ago
Truth is...everything in this world is unfair and everyone is trying to fuck everyone.
Why do you care about breaking her heart? She will break yours without hesitation.
thealphonse 8y ago
I need to read these comments every day until I finally get it. Even my own experience shows girls are happier around you when you lead and take what you want. There is literally no incentive to be a beta bitch like I was/sort of still am.
reddit_sucks2 8y ago
Easy as fuck to not have guilt for doing nothing wrong, nothing the women doesn't want, nothing illegal, and nothing that hurts anybody else.
Seriously man, the societal level programming is embedded deep within you.
thealphonse 8y ago
I've been lucky with genetics but hopeless with perspective and healthy male selfishness until recently. Thanks for your response.
reddit_sucks2 8y ago
No problem man, I don't know why you are being downvoted because you simply asked a question, people are silly.
For your information, (use as you please, discard at your will), there are physical mechanisms that exist for breaking down preconceived constructs such as what we are talking about. Research chemicals such as psilocybin mushrooms and Lysergic acid diethylamide.
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FrostyMarijuanaBud 8y ago
Psychedelics are true red pills
oldredder 8y ago
Won't help the true-blue. You need an intellectual basis and life-experience in-progress of high-value to benefit from them the most.
FrostyMarijuanaBud 8y ago
Good call. It's easy to confuse these substances as an end-to-all-problems.
Like a great person at a point in their life before their potential is actualized? (e.g. Steve Jobs in the 70s)
oldredder 8y ago
like that but even less in total value than Jobs. Really, you need to be self-improving, on the path and wanting the goal, actually gaining, not imagining gains.
BurgundyCarpet 8y ago
Fucking Grade A post. The title alone made me spit out my coffee because of the obvious and hilarious fact that its true as fuck.
New guys, study the structure of this post. OP begins with theory and analysis, THEN discusses how to behave once you understand the theory. He's not just talking about ideas or telling stories – he's doing both, and linking them together.
Thanks for brightening my day with knowledge G.
tits_out_forTheBoys 8y ago
Thanks boss. Your past analysis on the Alpha/Beta dichotomy has definitely played a role in ironing out my Game. For any of the new guys who are reading this, I suggest looking into it.
moose_war 8y ago
I'd like to point this out...that orbiters are indeed valued by women emotionally. I think some guys believe orbiters are just a nuisance women deal with, but they would just ignore you if that was the case. They are basically, as he said, boyfriends without sex.
Here is what orbiters do: they convince women that they are interesting people sans vagina. They convince women that since this guy isn't trying to fuck her (in most cases he is or would fuck her given the chance), she must actually be a cool girl that is fun to be friends with... just as good as any male friend! She is just so interesting.
Women need this validation. It's why certain women, especially nerdy ones with orbiters, become so shocked and so hurt if a friend makes a move on her. It shatters the illusion. It makes her think "FUCK...that guy wanted to fuck me too....maybe I'm not as interesting as I thought". It's like a rich guy trying to figure out who his real friends are. Only women who are very very delusional think this way though. There are women who understand the dynamic just fine.
Anyway, besides that, good tips. I like this version of game because it's harder to fuck up. It doesn't lead to looking like a try hard. Just very laid back.
NeoreactionSafe 8y ago
"The Player's sexual strategy is to maximize the number of higher-quality women who he plates (non-exclusive sexual partners), and his optional strategy is to fuck Whores (non-recurring sexual partners)."
Keep in mind there is sexual strategy and reproductive strategy.
While all Red Pill truths exist in both strategies it's up to the individual to decide which they choose.
Some say having 10 children and an obedient wife is Alpha.
Others say spinning 10 plates is Alpha.
Red Pill is amoral about your choice.
oldredder 8y ago
meh. I've found zero value here: no women want my commitment. Not a one. They want my resources, they want my work-effort, but they don't actually want my emotional commitment.
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OmLaLa 8y ago
I love your prose and I love this article. It reminds me of Mark Mason's Models with a touch of RP.
Keep these posts coming. I look forward to reading in the future.
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Anon_Dutch 8y ago
Yes, happily ever after is possible, but not the lazy fairy tale version. Happily ever after requires ongoing diligent effort to maintain yourself and your relationship.
benzamtrp 8y ago
Alright. Stop. This is gold right here.
I'm reading Mark Manson's Models right now and I was quite unconvinced by a concept of his and you just unlocked it.
MM says that a woman:
Desires to be desired and
Now both assertions are self-evident to the redpill Man, the first for example being at the root of Pook's advice to be a sexual man and the second the simple definition of hypergamy. However MM rightly points out this brings us to a paradox since "if a high status man pursues a woman, he makes himself low status and therefore unattractive." Fair enough but then he claims that "vulnerability" solves the paradox and I wrote "BS" in the margin and was left feeling that a piece of the puzzle is missing...
And you brilliant man, come along today with the last piece: "show you desire her, but also show her she's not your best option". Sexual man, desire her, high-status in one package... Simple.
krakosia 8y ago
Women are extremely social creatures and need validation. She needs other women to validate her choice, her choice being you. If she is attracted to you but finds other women aren't attracted to you then she will reject you, eventually if not immediately. Hence social proof is so important. She wants to feel you picked her despite all the other options you had available. But deep inside this choice lies a time bomb which starts ticking the moment you make the choice. If through your behavior over time you demonstrate total unconditional commitment you signal to her that she is your only choice and a scarcity mentality. This will eventually lead her to hate you subconsciously and eventually consciously. Shit tests start when the hatred is subconscious and grow in scale when the hatred becomes conscious leading to night outs/vacations with her girlfriends where she gauges her own market value before deciding to dump your ass with the usual excuse - "the spark is gone"/"I don't feel the same way about you"/etc.
kingofpoplives 8y ago
It's interesting. I've noticed that my game often works better on higher smv women who I'm extremely attracted to. I think subconsciously, a woman can feel how strong your attraction is. If it's only lukewarm, even if you are above her smv wise, she probably won't stick around very long.
The subtle skill here is conveying your sexual desire without ever directly stating it, and without ever directly stating how sexy/beautiful she is. Both of these things are the kiss of death to a seduction.
The second part of always maintaining your options is also crucial. Women are deeply competitive and are nuts for pre-selection. They all want the man who is good enough to have other options. They would rather compete for that man's attention than have a lesser man all to themselves.
This is why it's such a massive mistake to quickly agree to exclusivity. Even if that's what you think you want (and really, with enough experience you won't want that, because AWALT) it's still important to hold out and keep fucking other women for at least six months. If you do that, she'll always love you more.
dongpal 8y ago
What happens if she "knows" that you are attracted to her because you are really direct (nonverbally)? I dont really understand why she shouldn't to be 100% sure.
oldredder 8y ago
because verbal & non-verbal are worlds apart for her:
what's non-verbal communicates at the level she feels is whole
Being verbal primarily is like being colour-blind. That's how women are.
kingofpoplives 8y ago
As long as you keep it non-verbal and relaxed you are usually good to go. Something about verbalization leads women to place men into the "thirsty loser" category.
dongpal 8y ago
im very agressive and obvious with my body language, I never say that I want her directly.
my question is this, op said :
why do I need to do this? also do I need to just look at other women or directly into her eyes ( which obviously only works when they even look at me, which would be lucky timing)
kingofpoplives 8y ago
Well for one thing, having other options for sex and romantic connection is the best possible way to cultivate abundance and reduce neediness. Your game and frame will be strongest when you have options and this alone will raise your SMV.
Also, women want to compete (and win over) a guy with options. It's just how their brains work. If no other women are fucking you, it must mean you're a loser, so they start to look for reasons why. They would rather share an alpha than have a beta all to themselves.
It always comes up at some point if you are seeing other women. I always just say "of course I am, we just met!" and leave it at that. They never have a problem with this.
dr_warlock 8y ago
“For one gender to realize their sexual imperative the other must sacrifice their own.” -/u/Rollo-Tomassi in his article, The Feminine Reality.
This is what many men struggle with. It seems logical to keep a constant fun, calm atmosphere. But in reality, you need to have her in emotional chaos. The higher the power output of her hamster, the greater your chance at scoring.
alpha_buffalo 8y ago
So true, I think I have really done this successfully once in a club so successfully that the contrasting behavior I displayed sent her hamster spinning that she ended up crying in the club. Still took her home. Very effective.
TheRedPilsner 8y ago
This is why a lot of PUAs advocate "Push/Pull Technique." Basically, you display sexual interest in a woman for a bit, and then you suddenly shift gears and display disinterest in her, and then you shift gears back to displaying interest. This creates massive amounts of sexual tension and makes her determined to find out if you're really into her or not.
oldredder 8y ago
This also explains women doing it: they don't know that's not how men work, only how they as women work, so they try it on us. Then we either (beta) get upset or (alpha) ignore her and go get another girl.
vissil 8y ago
The Art of Seduction seems to be a really popular book in those circles. I think acting hot and cold was listed under the Coquette seducer type. I've definitely had the strategy used against me (consciously or unconsciously) and it works wonders.
FocalBox 8y ago
If it's at a party and the other men there have tight game, how do you proceed?
It's hard talking to a group of girls or just one girl when they're constantly distracted by a guy that's more talkative or has stronger game than you, for instance
aesthetics4ever 8y ago
Then consider it a great opportunity to learn in real time from a guy with better game. Don't try to "one-up" the other guy as it will be obvious that you feel threatened.
FocalBox 8y ago
That's a good answer, but what should I do instead.
If he's dominating the entire convo it'd be pretty loser of me to just sit there and watch it happen, myself doing nothing...
cover20 8y ago
Do what any alpha male would do. Do what you want.
If you want to observe, learn, etc. then do that.
If you want to leave, then do that.
ankit0912 8y ago
It's the Nash Equilibrium. If all of us go for one girl we cockblock each other, but if we go for different girls then we actually have a shot with the higher valued girl.
Seduction is not rocket science. Most of us are and shall breed.
colombia40 8y ago
Boner Jams 2015 with Black Knight expansion pack
Best game ever
LongElm 8y ago
I actually googled this and was disappointed..
Polar1zing 8y ago
I assume this brand of game only works if you are already a high status male, since she will only be attracted to you based on eye contact alone if you are.
Hansebamse 8y ago
Yes! That is the core of TRP. Become a better you; and all aspects of your life will be improved.
cover20 8y ago
Assume you're a high status male. Chances are, that's enough.
throw_em_all 8y ago
Thanks for the post, it expresses really well and simple a lot of somehow complex concepts.
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RU_Crazy 8y ago
Where does the "He makes me feel excited" fit in your paradigm?
B0KAM 8y ago
This is gold, fantastic post.
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Anon_Dutch 8y ago
A cuckold is a MAN with an adulterous woman. The term cuckold does not refer to the woman, it refers to the man. When you make a mistake like that it sheds doubt on your expertise and calls the validity of your entire post into question, which is unfortunate because you do make some good points.
MarinTaranu 8y ago
If not being cuckolded is so important, then marry the least physically attractive woman you can find.
darkrood 8y ago
Will of Thirsty male +self-restraint of Hambeast= fidelity?!
Have you not met ugly slutty hambeasts?
MarinTaranu 8y ago
I believe it's all attitude. Some women just have a bad attitude.
Anon_Dutch 8y ago
Thanks for the unsolicited and useless advice. My comment related to an error OP made in terminology which undermined his credibility. It has nothing to do with me.
Sir_Shitlord_focker 8y ago
Wow, that's why I don't game, I don't even have the patience to read a post this long. If I'm going to put that much effort into learning something it better be particle physics.
Nicolay77 8y ago
If you can't read anything you will barely learn Play-doh physics.
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benzamtrp 8y ago
Have you read about some guy named "rollo tomassi" who talk about how women are attracted to other alpha traits that may not be physical appearance only and how one should "game" even your LTR?
Maaahoney 8y ago
check his user name. no need to defend yourself
[deleted] 8y ago
yeah, but if you don't have a good look basis you are fucked
blacwidonsfw 8y ago
If you think you are fucked, you have been fucked for a while.
MarinTaranu 8y ago
No, you're not. You just have to get them drunk.
oldredder 8y ago
and be in a country where that's not rape. In my country a woman can be a prostitute but if she's drunk she can't give consent by law for sex. She needs only say the word and it's off to rape-jail for you.
MarinTaranu 8y ago
OK, and logically speaking, how would she know who you are? You don't take her to an apartment, you tell her a fake name, hopefully you use a condom...Etc. etc. It's not enough to accuse somebody of rape, there must also be evidence.
oldredder 8y ago
NO, plenty of men spent 20 years in prison with no evidence. Accusation is definitely enough.
Most of the time a woman will snoop enough - ID or licence plate or if you used a credit card for a rental car or motel room - she'll dig through your stuff and find out who you are. A lot of men will not try to hide it either. Fucking girls in your same college also means she'll find from others who you are and probably did before you fuck but she can still find out after.