I just wanted to follow up. I've made my desicion. I've asked my wife for a divorce and am moving forward to make it as amlicable as possible. Out of both of our concern for our kids, she at least, so far, seems to be doing the same.

I have been doing alot of reflection, and now understand I was in an emotionally abusive relationship with this woman. From the engagment to be married, she has disrespected me and my opions, belittled me, made personal attacks against my character and abilities as a father and a husband when we have disagreed or her needs weren't meet, and has constantly moved the goals posts of what would make her happy throughout the relationship to keep me trying.

The first 5 years of the relationship were destructive. Me trying to bring up needs that needed to get met, were met with hostility, they were dimished, they were met with her defensiveness, I was counter attacked about how her needs weren't getting met and any attempted was made to turn arguements into something else, or project what I just said to her, right back at me.

I have never experieced a person like this before. I became so frustrated with the situation, I would rage with anger, spitting obsenities, completely losing frame. I thought I was going crazy. I thought I was doing something wrong. It took it's toll on myself esteem and self confidence.

Her constant reinforment that all marragies are like this came through, supported by her equally abusive family (which is hilarious becasue, other then her mother door mat, I could clearly see for years this same abusive behaviour in her father, her brother and her sister).

In the last two years, at first with the assistance of couples councilling that gave me the resovle to be a man, and do whatever it takes to save this marriage, followed by my discovery of the Red Pill, I have re-found my confidence. I have worked tirelessly to try to make this the marriage I've wanted.

I've become a master a de-escalating conflilt, I have learned what it means to hold frame, I have set clear boudaries to what is acceptable behaviour, I have been able to bring peace to my household and hope that I've curb whatever harmful effects to my kid our early conflict created.

Make no mistake, if you are reading this and it sounds familiar... this is not normal marital conflict. Even when holding frame, if your LTR or wife refuses to see a view point other then her own, contiunes to initiate conflict even when clear boundaries have been set, create conflict when you are down or weak especially, constantly disrespects you thorugh body language and words, never provides apology or only apology with conditions (I'm sorry, but...) that woman is taking advantage of you, controlling you, and attempting to impose her will on you without thought of anything but herself. It goes beyond hypergamy, because game has no effect. It is self destructive behaviour to not only you, but the woman as well. It is abusive.

If when things are really bad, she gets the inkling you will leave, she suddenly provides a level head, and affection, and all the things you need. Like all of a sudden she understands the things you have been wanting for years. It is a lie. People are who they are.

If any of this sounds familiar. Get out. I'm lucky enough that this behaviour, as I've seen so far, dosen't extend to my children. I'm lucky, that so far, she seems to get the point that our conflict no longer can be viewable by our kids. Do not stay and model that this relationship is ok.

Please let my experience be lesson to you.

I also wanted to thank this forum and read for the part they played in me understanding this now.

I'm still conflicted about my desicions. I'm a thinker, do a lot of self reflactiuon and try to look at all view points, but nature. But each passing day, I see the patterns more clearly, I understand better what was going on. My resolve only increases that this is the proper thing to do.

Again, if this sounds familiar... think, look back for patterns of behavious, the minimzing of your thoughts and need, the escalation of conflict or view points from your partner, the lack of apologies for innapropaite behaveor, the mood swings from loving to completly disrespectful, the attacks to you when you are down. Get Out.

A ton of bricks has been lifted from my shoulders.

Yes, many women will not show sympathy to a spouse during a death of someone she doesn't know, even if it's a close relative or friend of their spouse. And, as you experienced, they will even mock you. It's an easy way for them to shit-test you and alienate you from important people in your life.

My wife has done it during family deaths and tragedies. The sooner you realize this, the sooner you can prepare to 'put up the wall' and block her from repeating this. Just stop sharing any feelings with them. Practice makes perfect.

TRP informs us that your wife is not there to offer a shoulder to cry on. That is what a mother does, not a lover. She shit tested you at your most vulnerable and cracked your frame. Regain it and save your marriage or tell her to fuck off and don't, or both, and do whatever you want- but don't forget you will still have to regain that original frame before you get any other woman, even if you are faking it.

Also, are you tracking her cycle? This type of behavior is sometimes predictable.

Check the terms Psychopathy and Borderline Personality Disorder. She could also be Personality Disorder Batshit Crazy. No I do not think AWALT in this situation.

Thanks you all for all the comments and insights. I've been reading and absorbing rather then commenting. I'm re reading again. I've let her know what my decision with be on our future next week as it is our boys birthday this weekend and our focus should be that. I'm still unsure, but I'm thinking that if things haven't changed for the last two years, regardless of the improvements I've made, this is a bad situation for me, and nothing else is going to make it better. Still reasoning it out. She defiantly is experiencing some serious dread right now. Offers of sex and affection have been forth coming and she's acting like a 50's house wife...

I'll try to respond to you all individually. Thank you all so much for taking the time to write and respond.

I could rescue her from her family life for her

There's your mistake. Never rescue a damsel in distress. All you wind up with is a distressed damsel. I did the same thing as you and I suffered some of the same consequences.

Around this time I had what people call an emotional affair with some of the women. I never physically cheated, but I think I was longing for female admiration for so long, that I would rather be texting and talking and hanging out with these people rather then deal with things at home.

I did the same thing toward the end of my marriage. I needed to be wanted, to be loved and appreciated, and the single girls in my social circle gave me that validation I wasn't getting from my wife. I partied in the clubs with my friends and avoided my family. It was very damaging to my family, but it was what I felt I needed at the time. It made me feel better. I do wish I hadn't done it. It was not something a man with integrity does. I never physically cheated, either, though I had plenty of opportunity to do so.

A lot of what you said really resonates with me. The emotional neglect, lack of respect, and so on. You seem to be in the same place today that I was in just a few years ago. Let me tell you what I've learned, and I hope it helps you.

1. Divorce sucks. It took me lower than I've ever been. I cried myself to sleep many nights. There was a period of time when I didn't know if I was going to lose everything I'd ever worked for. My heart ached to have my family back. Those nights when I was alone, with nobody to talk to, with the wife and kids gone, were the worst. Some days I missed her so terribly I could barely breathe. Other days, I honestly considered killing the bitch.

2. After much internal reflection, I realized I was not in love with her and hadn't been for a long time. I was in love with who I thought she could, or should, be. With the person I wanted her to be, and perhaps with the person she used to be. Unfortunately, the woman I was in love with didn't exist. My wife embodied pieces of her, but the woman that I longed for, that I needed so badly in my life, wasn't there and never had been. This was a tough realization. Very hard to take.

3. No woman will ever give you the emotional love and validation you seek. You're never going to get it from your wife. If you think you can leave her and find it in another woman, you're only going to set yourself up for more heartache and emotional turmoil. What you need must be found from within. You have to get it from yourself. This has been the hardest pill for me to swallow. There are all kinds of books on the subject of loving yourself and internal validation. A good therapist can also be helpful. I'm not ashamed to say I spent a lot of time and money doing personal therapy, exploring my childhood, and trying to understand why I had this intense need to be loved and validated.

4. You're making great progress already. Keep working on yourself. Learn to love yourself and know without a doubt that you are a great man and a woman would be lucky to have you in her life.

5. Your wife isn't going to come around. She's spent too much time walking all over you. I highly recommend you prepare for a divorce. If you can handle living with her for a couple more years, you can start hiding assets now in preparation. Slowly pull money out of bank accounts a few hundred dollars at a time and sock it away in a rainy day fund that only you know about. If she isn't working, she needs to be. If she's unemployed, the courts will screw you over extra hard. Understand that the courts will want 1 to 2 years worth of bank statements, so be ready with a plausible explanation of where that money went. Gas, food, entertainment, gambling, strip clubs, whatever. "I spent it on things I needed." What I'm advising is illegal. Know this, proceed cautiously and make sure there is zero evidence.

6. DO YOU. Be honest with yourself, with her and with people around you. Say no when you want to. Don't go along with things you don't want to do and don't be afraid of hurting her feelings. The more you swallow the red pill, the crazier she is going to get. I found it valuable to keep a small diary of her outbursts and my feelings. When she's gone, there will be times when you'll miss her. The bad memories will fade and you'll be left with the good and wondering if you made a mistake. When that happens, I go back and re-read my diary to remind myself of the hell she put me through.

7. DO NOT GET INTO ANOTHER RELATIONSHIP! This is important. You're going to be tempted, but any woman you get with will immediately try to bring you back down to a beta level. You need to heal from what you've been through and make damn sure you're strong inside. Like a rock. After the divorce is final, give it another year. Maybe two, maybe three. You're going to fall in love again, it's going to happen fast and before you know it you'll have worries and regrets.

If I keep moving forward and build on the little improvements I have seen is there light at the end of the tunnel.

Yes, there is light at the end of the tunnel, but it probably doesn't include her. That said, if you want to keep trying, go for it. Just don't lose sight of who you are and what you want in a relationship. Be ready to leave with nothing but the shirt on your back and whatever money you've squirreled away. Set a deadline and stick to it if she doesn't come around. Don't waste another 7 years of your life.

I'm sorry you're going through this. The next few years are going to be an emotional rollercoaster unlike anything you've ever been through. You're going to be OK, though. There will be a lot of emotional growth. When all is said and done, you'll come out stronger than ever.

Don't fight the process. You need to go through the emotions in order to grow as a man. Cry when you're sad, beat the fuck out of something soft (bed, pillow, punching bag) when you're angry, be alone when you need to and go out with friends when you're feeling up. You will get through this and everything will be OK.

She is a woman and what would be a dark triad seriously fucked up mentally should be removed from society if it was a guy is pretty much the normal. And yours appears to be extra that.

To put it short: She was nice when you were acting like you weren't all that attached to your relationship with her. Give her reasons to be afraid of losing you and she'll make sure you have reasons to stay.

And don't show wounderability, it makes you seem like a lesser man and she'll resent you at a subconscious level for it and act out at an inopportune moment.

I have to go to my past best friends parents house to talk about his life and your starting this unacceptable behavior with me? She laughed and said something like ohhh poor you.

Right there is when I'd have a hard time not hitting her.

Sounds VERY similar to stories in this book. Was very important for me to read, and re-read: http://www.amazon.com/No-More-Mr-Nice-Guy/dp/0762415339

I was shocked. I was enranged. How could this person show such a complete lack of empathy and sympathy. I removed myself from the situation.

This is how all women are, you have to come to that understanding here and now. They only care about themselves and their children, their feelings for you only extend to what you do for them. This is their nature and there is nothing wrong with it. Save you caring for your children, they deserve it, no women does.

As for your wife situation? You've spent years digging this hole and building the expectation that your a carpeted ATM. When you started changing she picked up on the confidence and raised SMV which in turn triggered her sexual attraction. You let that slip and her attraction turned off. You can turn it on again by simply resuming what you were before and overcoming her shit tests. Since you spend so long as a beta it's going to be a monumental task, but it is doable.

Normally the advice here is to preemptively take a loss and next / divorce her. Since there are children involved you might look to stabilize the household situation, that's going to take a fuck ton of work. Get your hands on Married Man's Sex Life Primer, it's a good starting place on what to do and how to manipulate her unchecked beast. Btw all women have that beast, if you were to meet 1,000 women after this one, they would all have that same beast, some would imply chose to hide it.

As for step 1, assuming your leaning towards saving it, time for massive dread game. I'm talking token emotional displays to her, and then only in front of the children, while spending all your time with your friends and specially the female ones. You don't have to cheat, but don't try to hide that your going out and seeking fun. Her insecure mind will do all the work for you, she'll start assuming that she's losing you and that she misjudged you and you're actually an important catch. You need to give her just enough emotional attention that she doesn't shut down out of fear of rejection, but not anymore then that.

For why she reacted that way? Your accusations were 100% on point, and she knows it. This would make a men feel ashamed and he would seek to make amends. That's not how women work. She saw it as an attack on her, and most importantly it was an effective attack so in return her hamster shut down her emotions in regards to your friend. Attacking her that way was probably one of the worst things you could of done as it showed you had a weakness and she was able to dominate you through your weakness. When she does shit like that, you need to laugh at her and walk out the house, go visit a friend for awhile.

Just remember that every LTR is essentially dread game.

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You're emotionally reactive. Seems like maybe she's been able to push your buttons at will throughout your marriage.

Only when you started to control your emotions did she start treating you better.

Women, by nature, are egocentric. They value relationships in terms of how it benefits them. They fail to see the larger picture and empathize with the feelings of others. So, if you're expecting her to have all this great concern for your emotional state - then you're going to be left wanting and ultimately heartbroken.

Don't expect her to go too far out of her way to be there for you emotionally. That's not why women get married. They get married to rely on you - not have you rely on them.

So you need to learn how to become more emotionally self sufficient and less reactive. You have to increase your level of personal strength and awareness.

You're a husband and father. You have responsibilities. It's your job to be the rock. You have to live up that role.

You're not in a marriage to kiss your wife's ass and do chores, you're there to work hard, provide and raise children. Adversely, she's not there to be an emotional tampon for you. You have to be steady and strong.

If you want your wife to start treating you better, then you have to raise your SMV (sexual market value). You have to hit the gym and put more effort into your personal appearance. When she plays head games to try to manipulate you, you have to stand firm and keep yourself under control.

The only strategy you really need to exercise is for you to keep your side of the street clean. Make sure you are holding up your end of the bargain.

Don't forget you have a greater responsibility to those children. If you divorce, you won't see them everyday. That will be tough. It was the toughest part of my divorce. You'll be shelling out major cash every month, too. The frustration won't end - it will probably intensify.

If you can work on your marriage and fix things, then by all means do. You trade this one in - you'll probably end up with another batch of problems with the next one you settle down with - no better or worse.

In the end, happiness in a marriage is dependent on how you see things and how you handle things. Women are women. They only care about themselves - and you can't get all fucked up in the brain over it. Go over to married men sex life and start stepping up your LTR/marital game. Learn how to be more in control of your situation.

Give her some hard rules. Let her know you won't put up with xyz. If she breaks those rules, be ready to take an L. Youre falling deeper into a financial pit every additional year you spend with this woman. I don't think there's a reasonable chance you two will stay together until one of you dies. That being the case, might as well cut your losses.

She came for an extremely strict household and grew up witnessing physically abuse from her father. She was living at home in her mid 20's and hadn't so much as date a man longer then a month or two

She sounds and acts a little bit crazy. You know what they say about crazy? I get she's the mother of your children, etc... But crazy women do crazy things. Get your shit on lock, start recording everything, lawyer up. This could get very ugly for you.

I know exactly what you are going through man. You have been failing her shit tests for years. She still thinks she can walk all over you and you have been letting her. You tried to fix things with her but lost your frame due to your friends death. An important thing you need to learn is that your wife is not your friend, you are hers.

You are there to listen to her hardships she is not there to listen to yours. She doesn't give a shit about you and your problems. I know that sounds harsh but it's true. The more you share with her about how hard your life is the less she will respect you. She is not your therapist.

The only way a woman is able to give a man that kind of support is if it is her child, and even then it is taxing for her. Once you try to confide in her she will start to think of you as a child that didn't come from her. That is when you hear ladies talk about them man like "It's like I have an extra child in the house" and shit like that.

You can bitch and moan about how shitty it is that you married someone so cold but the truth is the grass isn't greener anywhere else. You aren't going to find a woman somewhere that gives a shit about your feelings. Divorcing her isn't going to solve that problem. It will solve the problem of you being around her but if you are the type that is going to run out and find another woman to validate you then you are just going to get hurt again.

Another thing to remember is that no one is perfect. We learn as we go in life. When we screw up people call us on our shit and we learn from it and get better. Women however rarely get called on their shit. They can learn to control their problems just like you and I can but people keep encouraging their shitty behavior. I am willing to bet that you have been sparing her feelings for a majority of your relationship and that is one of the reasons that she isn't growing. Call her on her shit and tell her how sick you are of it. Play some dread game if you need.

Anyways long story short Yeah it's fixable but it's going to be a lot of work. You need to tighten up your frame and not focus on her to be your form of validation. Don't share your feelings with her and if she lets you down stop validating her.

My guess is that you get no empathy from her because you are not a real person to her. She is missing that chip in her hardware, if you will, that permits her a full Theory of Mind in regards to men, and you in particular.

You are a cardboard thing, which exists to make her life easier and make her feel better about going through life. That is your role and function, and to the extent you do not, to her estimation, perform that function, you are defective. Defective things deserve contempt until they function properly.

If you fail to make her life easier, you are to be scorned until her life gets easier, by her estimation. If you fail to make her feel better about going through life, same thing.

As she has no concept that you are a real person, like her, your needs and wants and experiences are not full and completely human. This is a mindset slaveholders generally have towards slaves. Employers who are shitty to their employees often do something similar. The subordinate people in the hierarchy exist to attend to the superior's needs and wants.

In short, she simply fails to grasp that you have a similarly complex and complete set of feelings as she does. She also does not see you as an equal in terms of standing. You are the subordinate.

The only time this default worldview of hers gets overturned is when she is trying to obtain commitment from you. In the beginning, and now, when she realizes that she is going to see you utterly disengage from her, she deploys the behavior women like her exhibit initially to attract a mate. Attention. Sex. Pleasant conduct.

Once she feels the crisis is over, and commitment is assured, she is back to the default state of solipsism.

This is who she is. So long as she is comfortable and confident you are not going anywhere, she will be indifferent and inattentive.

You showed weakness and she was disgusted by it.

Some women will react better in so far as that they'll display more tact, but internally they'll have the same emotional response.

Don't show weakness. Just reading your post, I get a really blue pill vibe. Don't get me wrong, glad you're here, best of luck, etc. etc, but, you're still plugged in.

You're still trying to lean on her for strength. This will not work. You need to be the source of your own strength. When you get there, she'll respect you more.

Think about it: your attractiveness as a man is based largely on your strength (mental and physical), when you break that illusion it's analogous to a chick showing up 30 pounds overweight with a bad haircut. I don't care how empathetic you are, in that situation you would probably be non-plussed. You might love her still... but all the same, you didn't sign up to be with a fat chick with a pixie cut. Same for this girl. You showed up mentally weak. That's not what she signed up for. That's not the guy she married. (In her mind). She's making fun of you not because she's evil or whatever, but because she needs you to "get it".

Thing is: she can't tell you that. If strength is what you're attracted to, you can't just say "be a stronger man", because the existence of that signal turns it into a contradiction. If you're just being strong to impress her, if you need to be told to be strong, then you're not really being strong, you're being supplicating, right? And that's the opposite of strength. So, it's not really her fault, you're acting poorly and it's being reflected in her behavior. (It's like cesar milan training dogs. If a dog is acting out, it's not usually the dog, it's the owner. If you haven't watched cesar millan... you should.)

Her response was tacky, but she's not the problem, you are. Get your shit together. Lean on yourself. Or us if you have to. And good luck.

I like the karate class analogy for situations like this: You let your guard down, thinking that she would know not to test the master on such a sacred day, not considering that (1) that day was important to you, NOT HER and (2) she can't respect displays of weakness from the person who is supposed to be her rock. This led to her, not only kicking you but, kicking you with no consequence (which was your real error).

Those two issues she picked a fight over: not doing anything around the house and being controlling, are both really about her. They aren't things that you should have engaged her over, if only for the simple fact that, housework is seen as womanly and leading the house is seen as manly. As a man, you are doing what you are suppose to do. Help around the house but I would avoid heavily engaging in housework.

And stop asking your wife questions. She's not going to give an honest go at really looking inside herself to answer a "why" and it's just going to frustrate you in the end. It's a pointless question.

I'll give you an "answer" to your why...she has no sympathy for you. Are you her child? Are you A child? Are you one of her girlfriends/ sisters? No? Then she doesn't really have the capacity to feel sympathy for you outside of "imagining what you must be going through". DON'T EVER EXPECT TO BE GIVEN SYMPATHY AGAIN.

You're a man. Take. Other men respect it and women expect it.

When she hit you with that kick, it should have woke you up. The rest of that "fight" should have been you verbally breaking through her defense and putting her on her head. As in, you should have responded with strength! Asking why she is being rude was just above crying.

Your wife grew up in an abusive household...she is abusive. That's okay. If your assessment is correct, she, too, responds to TRP theory so you have tools and techniques to use against her. This is a hiccup but KNOW that she will test you. How could she respect you if she didn't confirm for herself that you are this strong man that can take care of her and her children? Sexually, what girl wants to lick the balls of someone she considers weak?

Now, when you start being the man that passes her tests with little effort, she'll find new ways to test you...new ways to wear you down. The best way to handle this type of situation, in my opinion, is to simply draw lines in the sand. Shoot at her feet should she approach them...withhold and/ or talk to her until she is tired should she step across it.

Some would call your wife the enemy in this situation but I look at it as more of a deadly alliance. An alliance that holds strong as long as you're someone worth being allies with...be a man she will lose out on should she cross you.

If you are describing her accurately, then I'm going to go out on a limb here and say she's a narcissist.

Because you have two kids, I want you to head over to r/raisedbynarcissists and check out some of their posts. NM (Narcissistic mother) accounts for about 85% of all the cases, and often the NM does this type of shit to the husband as well. I would suggest that you observe her behavior with your children over the next month, and scan for some of the giveaways that she is a narcissistic parent. If she is, I'd recommend divorce and filing for custody, because these people can reallllly fuck up their children.

If she cannot empathize with your hardships and troubles and rough patches, how can she do the same for your son when he needs support, how can she be a good mother to a daughter, etc.

I think you may benefit a lot from Ricky Raw's blog. He writes a lot about human behavior, social dynamics and dating. You might benefit from reading and searching his stuff about co-dependents, narcissism, & emotional vampires.

It is this day, that for some reason she starts picking a fight with me when her sister is over. I don't do anything around the house. My new found confidence and lead taking in the home a way of me controlling her. I looked at her... why are you being some rude? Nothing.

It is possible that this situation is unfixable and that she is unfixable. Still, in this instance, I would have handled it differently. I would have immediately pulled the rug out from under by refusing to say another word to her. I would have turned and walked out of the room or left the house for 24 hours.

It's like dealing with a dog. You can't let even minor infractions go unpunished. At the first possible moment that she starts to act up, you need to punish her by taking away the gift you've given her: your presence. Refuse to talk to her unless she talks like an adult. "Are you ready to have a conversation like adults? No? Okay, bye."

I was shocked. I was enranged.

No need to get angry at your dog, your children or your wife. Simply teach them how to behave. And when they misbehave, punish them. Your anger is a gift to her. It's drama. That's what she wants.

I gave out a heart felt apology I would give if I ever did something so horrible to a person.

Why why why would you apologize? Do not cave in. If you haven't done anything wrong, do not apologize.

I think you fucked up with the emotional affair and may have rewritten just how bad the beginning of the marriage is. Both men and women who have had affairs do this.

That being said, you should set boundaries and adhere to them. Learn about shit tests and how to handle them. Married Men Sex Life Primer is not a bad start.

Sounds like she maybe bipolar. Deal with women like these requires some hardcore frame. You have to stop engaging in her drama, because she uses feelings to manipulate. Be always bossy.

Option 1. She saw weakness in you on that day and according to TRP women are disgusted by male weakness.

Option 2.

She came for an extremely strict household and grew up witnessing physically abuse from her father.

She was also abused verbally by her father for her weakness and she has inherited the same behavior and does not know that it's wrong. Some people look at you, find a fault in you and tell it to you with a smile. Somehow it makes them happier, that you are not so perfect after all.

I think you should move on DO NOT have kids with her it will not get better kids WILL NOT change her. I would even go so far as to say she is broken always was move on find a better woman DO NOT look at the time you spent with her as wasted it has taught you what you do not want in a woman and relationship. This is the only reward you will get out of this situation. I was married we would fight like this we did have kids she was no better for it spend no more time with her you have achieved all you will achieve with her.

I think you need a Hard Reset. Leave the house for a week. Stay at your buddy's house or a hotel. See that your kids' needs are met for that week. Do not contact your wife.

After the week is over, come back. She will be primed to listen to you now. She has felt your absence.

In clear and simple words, tell her that the week away made you realize that this marriage can't go on like it has been. Come up with 3 - 5 HARD LIMITS, write them down on a piece of paper. (e.g., "The next time you mock me for having feelings, I am gone.")

If she doesn't shape up then, she never will. Then you get rid of her. I know she's the mother of your kids, but don't get it confused. You will still be involved in your children's lives. But do you realize the consequences to your kids to see their father belittled by a shrill little woman all the time? You're better off bouncing and having a separate roof where you make the rules. In your heart, you already know this.