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- Hide Preview | 28 Comments | submitted 12 months ago by Psychological_Radish [Post Locked]

Not long ago a question was posed here regarding whether girls get nervous during dates. The answer to that is obvious - of course they do. But I find the question interesting because it prompts a deeper issue.

One problem I have noted on the askTRP forum is that most guys expend too much mental effort trying to decipher whether or not the girl is 'feeling' the date. The Blue Pill socializes men to defer to the feminine; it's only okay to make a move if she gives him indicators of interest (IOIs). Although the guy will gladly escalate when he receives positive reinforcement, this is still a form of approval seeking Beta behavior.

Most men (and people in general) are risk-averse. Betas fear any action that could result in a negative outcome, so they construct rejection buffers. Approval seeking is one such buffer. If the date doesn't end in some kind of sexual escalation, he can easily rationalize the outcome as disinterest on the girl's part. She didn't give him IOIs, therefore she wasn't interested. Then he comes on askTRP wondering what went wrong.

Looking back on my early experiences, it is obvious that I missed a lot of lays because I worried too much about the girl's interest. If she reciprocated my flirtation and matched my energy level, then I would have no problem inviting her back. Obviously she was into it. If she didn't, then I'd write her off as not interested.

I suspect this is the case for lots of analytical guys. We prefer to gather a vast quantity of information before taking action. In the sexual marketplace, this is a major disadvantage. Natural Alphas don't really think things through. They're selfish and impulsive. They take action without consideration to consequences or anyone else's feelings.

Newsflash: girls get nervous during dates. They freeze up. They have trouble making conversation. They won't reciprocate kino.

Indeed, women are naturally prone to anxiety and nervousness. They're indecisive, self-conscious, and worry constantly about uncertainty. Even an HB8+ who knows damn well that every guy would gladly nail her still harbors a kernel of doubt when she encounters a man she considers Alpha - is he into me? Dithering is a feminine trait, which is why men who display it are so deeply unattractive. Masculinity is about certainty. Women crave that energy because they can't replicate themselves. It is biologically impossible for them because they lack the testosterone hormone that powers masculinity.

As Rollo says, hypergamy is based on doubt. Usually we use the term in the context of her doubting a man, but the doubt extends to her own sexuality.

I once met a girl out from Tinder while I was traveling for work. From my perspective at the time, she didn't seem all that into it. I carried much of the conversation and I didn't feel my flirtations were being reciprocated. Doubt crept in, and I felt certain I would be rejected. But I was away from home and feeling bolder than usual, so I just thought fuck it and invited her to my hotel room.

Minutes later she was fucking me like a porn star.

The girl eventually became a long-term plate and FWB, and I once asked her why she was so nervous on that first meet. She said that she was incredibly attracted to me and didn't want to say anything stupid that would turn me off. I don't doubt that explanation, because it's exactly the mindset that Betas have when they're in the presence of an attractive girl (note how similar Beta men are to women).

Now I make it a rule to at least try to fuck a girl on every first date. Ultimately there's no point in looking for IOIs. A flirty feminine girl often makes for a better first date, but those IOIs don’t necessarily mean anything. The only thing that matters is whether or not she follows your lead to the bedroom. Everything that happens up until the moment you're inside her is bullshit.

This is why I often advise guys to skip the end-of-first date kiss and just invite her back to your place to hang out as the first move. In my experience (which is mainly with younger early 20s girls) the bedroom is the point of no return. If she comes back with you, it is virtually guaranteed that she wants sex - IOIs or no IOIs. From there you Game her in the usual way.

The only thing you need to worry about are indicators of disinterest, of which stalling sex is the most important. When a girl won't go home with me or otherwise indicates that she is uncomfortable with my sexual escalation attempts, that's usually when I eject. The critical point here is that I take action and get an answer one way or the other. Most guys want some form of permission before they're even willing to try.

The number one mistake that salesmen make is that they don't ask for the sale. Likewise, the number one mistake that most men make is that they don't go for the bang.

Summary: Don't get too hung up on IOIs. Girls get nervous and IOIs are unreliable. Be a man of action and lead the interaction to where you want it to go. The only way you can definitively know her interest level is if she follows you (or rejects you).

[-] KeffirLime 85 Points 12 months ago

This applies particularly to young girls, they've all grown up wanting Chad's, so an opportunity to bag one is a big deal.

Although growing up behind smartphones, Instagram and snapchat has left them pretty socially autistic. They don't really know how to seduce or communicate with guys they find attractive so they just sit there like an owl trying not to screw up.

It's entirely on you to take the lead and make something happen.

[-] Heizenbrg 0 Points 12 months ago

What age group? early 20s didn’t really grow up with social media as much as teenagers now days.

[-] RedBloodHunter 25 Points 12 months ago

People in their early 20's most definitely grew up with social media.

I'm 26. The first iPhone came out when I was 14 in year 9, but nobody had one. Most people had the classic Nokia brick phones or cheap Samsung flip phones that barely had internet capability. Rich kids had Sony Ericsons or similar.

"Smart" phones didn't even begin circulating until around year 11 and year 12, they were mostly just a fun niche; shortly after I graduated they became standard.

Facebook started becoming popular around year 11 (everyone migrated from MySpace and Bebo). Boards like Reddit, 4chan, 9gag etc. had only just started developing between year 9 - 11. It was the golden age of meme culture, lol.

I'm not really sure when instagram became popular, and when snapchat released, but it was shortly after I graduated.

The point of all this reminiscing was to say, people in their early 20's (to me that means under 23) have definitely grown up with social media dominating their lives - perhaps not to the extent that people under 20 have, but close enough that it doesn't matter.

People between 24-28 have similar experiences to my own, the generation between the internet age and the smartphone age.

[-] [deleted] 9 Points 12 months ago

Those of us in our 30s were the ones that just missed it - but alas still addicted to smartphones, but social media less so. Thank heavens for that :)

[-] RedBloodHunter 6 Points 12 months ago

Yeah man, social media is a cancer. I miss the days when phones were only used as a communication tool (text or call to meet up). I didn't experience it much, but life was better before social media started dominating, it was by far more genuine.

I sometimes feel like Abe Simpson when I'm interacting with people who aren't even that much younger than me, especially women. I just can't fathom how their lives revolve so much around this dumb screen, but I guess dopamine is a hell of a drug.

[-] Blackwhitesimple 1 Point 12 months ago

Deleted instagram and Netflix. best decision ever.try replacing low roi with high roi activities

[-] ObscureIM 2 Points 12 months ago

This is a good example where an old trper doesnt understand the current virtual game

[-] [deleted] 25 Points 12 months ago

All of your points here are really well taken.

The number one mistake that salesmen make is that they don't ask for the sale. Likewise, the number one mistake that most men make is that they don't go for the bang.

Guilty as charged, and the kicker is of the women I was interacting with at the time, at least some of them wanted to get banged. Stupid.

There does seem to be a terminology problem here. When I hear IOI, I think of a woman I have not yet met. Those are really important social cues that will improve your chances if you can pick up on them. Once you're on the date (regardless if it's online, instadate, whatever) then yeah, you're calibrating, push/pull, all that jazz. I don't think of any of that as an IOI, but it makes perfect sense to.

[-] Psychological_Radish 10 Points 12 months ago

Yeah this is more geared toward once you're on the date, but I think it applies to the initial approach as well. askTRP is filled with some variation of "are these IOIs?" These guys are killing themselves over her interest level and they haven't even asked for her number or a date yet.

[-] virusofthemind 10 Points 12 months ago

"Assume the sale" "Assume the interest". By doing so you give off tiny non verbal behavioural cues which set the frame for the girl to drop into.

Absence of IODs is an IOI. If you're not getting either and the girl is"Disinterested" (Disinterest means impartial to both sides like a judge is supposed to be during a trial) then you need to polarise the reality to force an indicator either way

[-] rizzyfromthe9 16 Points 12 months ago

I just made a post yesterday over at asktrp - Went on a first date with a chick. She had trouble maintaining eye contact with me and wasn't asking me many questions. There were no clear IOI's

Asked her whats the craziest thing she's done. She replied with some boring shit at first then I said how im opened minded and nonjudgmental. She said how she had sex in a movie theater before. I said "wanna do something crazy?" Long story short - fucked her in the bathroom. She said how I'm so perfect and wanted to do this a "billion more times and forever" and how she wanted to feel me and touch my arms all night.

I had no idea her interest level was that high or high at all tbh, but I just assumed attraction and held frame.

[-] kenpachitz 6 Points 12 months ago

I said "wanna do something crazy?" Long story short - fucked her in the bathroom.

Lol. What's the long story? I'm imagining you asked, took her by the hand and the deed was done?

[-] [deleted] 12 months ago
[-] sanos7 14 Points 12 months ago

Funny, I was reflecting on similar things just today and arrived at the same conclusion.

Plenty of girls don’t (seem to) show interest, but if you push a bit anyway, you discover they’re actually very receptive.

Part of it is they want a guy that won’t give a fuck, that’s unfazed, that doesn’t need signals or encouragement and that won’t take the first or second no for an answer. He decided on this course of action so he’s taking it, external cues are only of secondary importance.

Side note: Notice how that correlates to an effective general approach towards life, career and business.

[-] miserablesisyphus 6 Points 12 months ago

I actually just heard a study (I'll try to find it) about this today. The basic conclusion was that during the first portion of an interaction with a man, women treat almost all men the same regardless of attraction. I think there's a few things going on 1) a woman is gauging the man's intentions 2) a woman is appraising the man's value and 3) a woman is assessing her value and strategy.

I would disagree somewhat with OP though in terms of signals of interest. Our limbic system controls nonverbal communication and it's really hard to fake. These signals are almost always present I just think some are more subtle than people think. For example, a girl just being in a man's "personal space" or letting a man in her space is a huge sign of interest. Humans distance themselves from things we dont like, we block things we don't like, etc. I'm willing to bet if a girl is willing to sleep with you, she's sent you those signs non verbally.

[-] INNASKILLZ2K18 12 Points 12 months ago

Excellent post. I've thought this for years. I've always told guys 'why are you looking for permission'?

IMO, most girls won't give IOI's until you engage. Sure, there are subtle ones, but to tell you the truth, I'm far too high a value to waste time surveying if she's walked past me, sits in a 2 metre radius, twirls her hair twice, while batting her left eye-lid and tapping her heel three times.

Some women are very socially awkward, and the amount I've discovered where attracted who gave no signal is huge.

Lead, hold frame, assume attraction, wait for her to back out.

[-] Spartan1590 10 Points 12 months ago

Wonderful post, I fucked up a lay two days ago because I was trying to play it safe and waited for IOIs that never came, yet she was all for it and I chickened out. Don’t be like that, go until the end.

[-] anti-hypergamist 3 Points 12 months ago

How did you know she was all for it?

[-] NobodyP1 6 Points 12 months ago

Where would I get all these abbreviations spelled out? There’s so many I’m wondering if there is once source

[-] FixYourselfFirst 14 Points 12 months ago

Look in the sidebar for Glossary of Terms and Acronyms

[-] [deleted] 4 Points 12 months ago

Your points are very well taken. Now that I think about it, my natural selfishness and devil-may-care attitude has always been a plus, and I've never had a problem with quick escalation.

Funnily enough, I was never great at approaching, but my close rate once I get a girl on a single date/meeting is absurdly high.

The girls that I thought we're not interested or the date wasn't going very well, were the quickest ones with their clothes off moaning the loudest.

[-] DreamExpedite 3 Points 12 months ago

I learned a lot from the post but just a minor correction - Girls don't LACK testosterone, they just have substantially low amounts in general when compared with that of men.

And to follow up on that, imagine, you have shitloads of test when compared with women- which basically means that you're decisive,competetive yada yada , and they have shitloads of estrogen -which leads them to feel too much, ie, they are slaves of their emotions. I just thought this up and it explains so much because I also recently learned that we actually have not one but numerous different personalities (about 6 on avg) that get activated, and listen closely now - by stories. Stories that you listen from others,make up yourself, watch in the movies,read in books etc, so what I've found is that this connects to another post that was made in which the guy said that women aren't attracted to us, they're just attracted to the stories they tell themselves about us, add that on top of the fact that they're not in control of their emotions, and you have what TRP has taught us all along - they're fucking kids. To be honest, we all are, but they're more kids than we are and that means something, that means that I've finally internalized 3 of TRP's tenets. Thanks bois

[-] max_peenor 3 Points 12 months ago

Indeed, women are naturally prone to anxiety and nervousness.

I don't understand how this could be controversial, but it seems to be. The smaller, child bearing of a dimorphic species will always favor flight over fight. It's a fundamental survival trait of the species. I was always very honest with women that I understood this and there was no shame in it. Consequently when I was in corporate-world women would literally ask me if they could hide in my office so they can get their shit back together.

[-] revaforce 2 Points 12 months ago

TLDR: Watch what she does.

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[-] FereallyRed 2 Points 12 months ago

AKA - Assume Attraction

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