There's a chance it's part of the affirmative action, equal opportunity, everyone's a winner attitude that has done so much for us until now, but I think it's a big part of what makes people really annoying these days.
​
Perhaps leadership skills are so lacking that it is always the focus, that we are always trying to find new leaders, train leaders, push people into becoming leaders, and no one really mentions that you can't have a dozen leaders in one group of 13. Most of the time, 12 people need to be really good at taking orders, figuring out the limits of how much the general commands can be tweaked once it's off the drawing board, what success and failure mean, what is expected of you, the consequences and rewards, how to work together and when(if) to take charge of the situation. In the military there is a chain of command, and whenever one person gets killed, within seconds the person who will take their place is already established. Until then they are expected to do what they are told. For disclosure, I was never in the military, and most of us will not be in situations of life and death, but it still applies when someone gets sick, out of town, phone service is down, people retire, quit, etc..
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Maybe it would crush too many spirits if a big part of your middle school/ high school education was "You're probably not capable of leadership, at least not most of the time, and here is how to be useful still and not annoy everyone around you." Or would it be too much to teach people how to decide when they should lead and when they should follow? A lot of times it seems to come down to who ever has the biggest ego, rather than who is the most capable.
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How does this relate to you in your life? Well I guess the most obvious and somewhat painful way could be that you are the person who is constantly battling for leadership, attacking a good and capable leader, undermining them, sowing discord in the ranks, and causing trouble in the lives of your group. This may be subconscious and you may not even realize it's happening. It might just be passive aggressive remarks here and there, but others pick up on it, and those who are really good at reading people will never fully trust you. Why didn't I get a promotion? Why do I not get invited to the things everyone else in my group of friends go to? Why do I get into so many arguments all the time?
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Or it's someone around you who has this problem, and you couldn't really put into words what their problem was. We're not really wired to think about this stuff anymore, or at least openly talk about it. In any movie or television, if someone wrongly tries to take charge of the situation and is told by their boss or the captain of the team or their commander to get back into line, it's usually seen as a huge insult and sure sign that the underdog will, by the end of the show, rise up and take the place of the bad guy(and it's always a guy) who dared have any regard for hierarchy.
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I am consciously trying to be better at understanding and respecting the various power structures and hierarchies I interact with on a daily basis. There is a time and place for everyone to be the student or the master, the boss or the employee. Knowing which is right for you, and by extension, recognizing when a group is in need of leadership, is a valuable life skill that helps prevent the conflict that just wastes time and energy.
Rushin_Rulet 5y ago
I'm glad someone finally made this thread. I've never had good leadership skills, never liked having all eyes on me waiting to take direction, never had an "alpha" personality. I just want to show up to work, not be stressed out, take the money, and run. If anything, as cynical as it is, I get a kick out of seeing coworkers bootlick to get ahead. doubly so if they fail in the process.
There's something fascinatingly embarrassing about watching someone think they're the hero and deserving of a ton of respect. or just someone who bought into all the optimist jargon TV shows and school taught us growing up. Is there anything more naive than thinking any company is all bosses and no workers? Or that an army can be all generals and no soldiers. Somebody (mostly everybody actually) needs to stay at the bottom/middle. It's best to just humble yourself an accept that if you are in a position that will suffice, just be content with it.
ebaymasochist 5y ago
Thanks I'm glad you liked it
We are not our job. We are not our stuff. It's not our job or our things that decide who we are, unless we let them.
WinjetRed 5y ago
I would like to add that a guy can really get noticed if he just puts his head down and focuses on completing tasks with out trying to draw attention to himself. Especially, if he is proactive and takes on some jobs that are usually a bitchfest.
WarriorMonkMode 5y ago
Everyone wants to be the leader for the benefits and yet none, of course, want the consequences of said responsibility.
What does it mean to be a leader?
It means you're up front taking the hits.
It means you're the one holding the torch and walking into the darkness whereas the rest simply follow.
It means when you fail, everyone fails.
Nobody is going to follow someone for very long who isn't worthy of being followed.
Being a leader is a lonely and thankless job.
Of course, it beats staring at the asshole of the weakling who would otherwise take your place. Of course, that's a matter of perception.
I, for one, refuse to be a follower. I don't like the way people do shit. They don't like the way I do shit. So why the hell would I follow them?
Better off treading new ground in the world. Make your own path.
Be a leader and a follower.
Follow your heart towards your mission, and don't let shit stand in your way. Of course, let those who want to follow, follow so long as they're useful.
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MatrixofLe3adership 5y ago
If my superior is genuinely more capable, then I see no issue---perhaps even honor---in a warrior who is capable of leadership submitting for the sake of the tribe. I'm sure plenty of Napoleon's top generals took pride in that.
More likely, nobody gives a flying fuck about anything so I may as well back my own interests. Do this intelligently. Too many times we label "disruptive" as "not bending over to be ass-raped by whatever the fuck we tell you to do"
rhys5584 5y ago
Nothing wrong with a little rotation.
MobleUserNameMu 5y ago
This is a problem with TRP's definition of betas. In a pack or herd, the beta males are all potential alphas. They follow the current alpha because he is strong, but will challenge him if he shows weakness. The weak men that TRP rails against aren't even in the pack, let alone betas.
anonymoustrper 5y ago
While it's true, here's an interesting question. What's going to happen to the followers, the get-shit-doners as the "Feminine Primary Imperative" gains more ground? Life's going to get much more harder for those folks than others. The 80-20 skew is going to become more like 99-1 instead.
shitinhermouth23 5y ago
80-20 and 50-1 are the same thing.
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ebaymasochist 5y ago
Can you give an example for which ways these peoples' lives will be harder? I just want to fully understand what you mean before trying to respond
anonymoustrper 5y ago
I mean given we agree on hypergamy, these followers are going to get less attention/pussy . It is also going to be harder to game, I understand we don't encourage using either of those as validation here, but biologically speaking, it is a big motivator. I guess they can always move to a place with legalized or easy prostitution.
ebaymasochist 5y ago
I gotta admit that a lot of the comments here were better at communicating the main idea of the original post than I may have been. It's more about being able to cooperate with people and having mutual respect for those around us, when it is earned, of course. For example, the Patriots can't win the Super Bowl if everyone is trying to be Tom Brady.. Conversely, by working together, following his plays, and being at this high level, they all win, they all get money and pussy and attention.. 98% of people in the world probably can't name a single one of them besides Tom Brady, and that's ok. I don't even like football much but it is a good analogy for life sometimes.
Also it wasn't supposed to be directed only at men, especially now that there is so much pressure on having equality in the ranks of everything. People in general should have pride in being able to cooperate with others even if they will not be the one standing on the podium after the big win.
SmamelessMe 5y ago
The ability to lead and the ability to cooperate are two different skill sets.
You mentioned military, and that is a good example. During tryouts for the more selective units of the military, both the inability to lead and inability to cooperate are seen negatively. The potential recruits rotate the leadership responsibility with the sole purpose of testing out both of these.
You make a good point, that demanding leadership at all costs is not constructive. But at the same time I strongly disagree with the outlined leader - follower dichotomy suggested in your post. In group of peers, leading towards an idea, and cooperating on an idea, are both required.
ebaymasochist 5y ago
I am glad you mentioned this because I knew it existed but it's not something I am qualified to write about. Maybe part of the problem is that this practice is not done enough outside of these highly structured organizations.
SmamelessMe 5y ago
It is problematic to achieve. Organizations hardly ever hire in bulk. And if they do, it is for entry level positions, where something like this does not really matter to the company.
Funnily enough, I was part of just one such hire, as my first proper corporate job. And they did exactly that, as one of the "exercises". Any other specialist position I took after that, the interview was on person-to-person basis.
Back to the topic, in its core, the idea touches on the idea of mastery. A master is aware of his skill, and is capable of stepping back, when someone else has an idea of how to achieve a goal, and wants to lead to it. Master is not threatened by someone else looking to lead. He seeks to achieve his goals in the most efficient manner. If there is a peer willing to lead to that same goal, all the better for him.
I apologize for potentially butchering it, but a long time ago I heard it said like something this:
"The best leader is the one who steps in reluctantly. Only after he sees that a leader is needed, and no other are willing to lead, or after current leadership proves lacking."
6000000_DOLLAR_DICK 5y ago
Just a note on such dynamics it's important to have leadership even in mundane scenarios and it can swap freely from instance to instance among you and your colleagues, friends, family and even strangers as the time calls for it and so long as jealousy and power lust aren't in your veins; that said we live in a fairly hierarchical world and obviously it's best to understand that and relate in it rationally as the OP post describes.
In mundane scenarios be it in dealing with an awkward situation in a confined public space like on a bus or a train the person who steps up to solve an annoyance should be given free reign so long as they aren't inflaming the general situation or your personal situation. Leadership and co-operation sometimes means total passivity in the face of someone else taking charge. I have a sister who would never interact with a stranger on her own volition but she craves attention, authority and the last word in 100% of conversations even with strangers, if she were witness to someone comforting a scared animal or a child/unwell person in a confined public space she would only intervene if somebody else had already begun to solve the issue and would then demand her way of solving the issue be followed creating twice as much work for all involved and likely making the situation worse for all involved, she is the type of person will ask you to do things that are extremely simple and that she should be doing for herself just to exert personal dominance, she is a living unyielding shit test and she is collapsing under the weight of her biological clock. She interrupted my mother when giving testimony to the police to tell them cat stories and contradicted my mother's testimony; My mother didn't do anything criminal precisely she just socked a homeless guy in the face with a mini prybar for trying to taker her money, she told two different stories one to us to avoid getting an earful about trusting strangers and the whole truth to the police, my sister could have easily shut the fuck up while my mother was giving this testimony but needed the attention of these strangers because she is the type of person who must be at the center of attention this is why she can't stay employed and is universally hated by all who know her, she doesn't know how to be an effective or good leader so in her need for attention she will have shitfits over dominance and try to make other people do twice as much work for no reason other than to sate her own demented power fantasies, these people are very real and not so uncommon, had my sister not also been lazy she could easily have stayed employed and been making a great many people's working lives hell.
Learning about abusive leadership and sick leadership and how interacting with them will just make you a target is important too. DO NOT contribute to the projects or goals of bad leaders beyond what is the minimum for you not to endanger your status, aim as low as possible and do your best to make sure other people do this too, most people reflexively do this and the pressure and tyranny of bad leadership itself typically breaks group cohesion but in the case of demented and sick sadistic types you need to make sure they fail and you need to be subtle because paranoia comes with that territory. These people failing is important for a number of reasons but primarily a leader gets the kudos for the performance of those they lead conversely the lack of results are also seriously blamed on leadership, now among women they are given far more grace in this department because of the myth that men wont respect female leadership, some men wont but generally speaking women a talent for management type work and I think this largely comes from the non threatening frame of motherhood, bad female management is trying to behave like some high and mighty male executive when you are just Brenda the shift manager. I digress an old saying from my father is "management comes and goes" the people being lead are the ones who hold a leader's destiny, giving positive results to be lauded by bad leadership is how you get more bad leadership, under performance is how you cause bad leadership to fail. When bad leaders fail you move up the totem pole and if your work doesn't at least become easier it will be far less un-enjoyable or even downright pleasant.
Leadership will often get a great deal of praise for the work of those whom they lead but in a healthy relationship with leadership the best performers will be lauded for their accomplishments by the leadership, this sharing of praise is critical in the dynamic and this is how as a non leader you can maintain alpha status. A surefire way to be clearly seen as weak in this regard is to b caught up in who gets to call shots and being resistant to the people who are submitting plans, strategies, proposals, etc. it really makes you petty and weak in a group if you can't stop reaching for the reigns when you didn't "naturally" end up with them
Leader ship skills can be learned; in a class and from experience but what is best is natural leadership ability and experience honing that this is a personal trait like being tall, it attracts mad pussy and respect even if you aren't wealthy or attractive, just having an air of command about you is like lowering life's difficulty slider by one just like being tall, in very good shape and having a great deal of wealth, these things realy do all compound too but that's not what we're talking about.
In your home and marriage being a jealous lover and jealous leader are acceptable, a king in his castle, a captain and his firstmate, people who don't innately grasp these truths or respect them are either stupid or dangerous but outside in the world leadership often goes with those who reach, not those who grasp, power is something you grasp and take for yourself, leadership is not expressly power because it is often the role of a slave king, his "power" is borrowed. Real power has exclusivity or is innate.
Back to fluid leadership, this is like a sort of teamwork or co-operation that comes from practice, experience and a great knowledge of your team, this is not really a hierarchical interaction with leadership but good leaders will let this system work on it's own and even endorse it from time to time letting those people lower in the hierarchy take charge for a time because they have a greater expertise and should be calling shots is a great multi level learning experience and demonstrates so many positive elements within a leader, and beyond kudos, if you know your people and do this when the time is right it will improve whatever your efforts might be.
Proto_Sigma 5y ago
Being an Alpha and having all the social, financial and sexual success that comes with it is a learned skill. There is a social hierarchy, and a chief component of your mission is climbing it.
You have to earn your way to the top however; you can't just AMOG your way though life.
max_peenor 5y ago
I have always been amazed at how willing people are to follow someone that displays a measure of certainty. You don't even have to be right. In fact, you can be demonstrably wrong. Most humans don't seek truth. They seek certainty.
If you have a pathological sense that you are always right no matter what, even if you accept that factually you are wrong, chances are you'll find yourself leading someone. Hell, you might even be President some day.
BACONisKEWLEST 5y ago
So true. The vast majority of people are born to defer.
Proto_Sigma 5y ago
... Being a competent Alpha is a learned skill. Talking the talk can get fools to follow you but walking the walk actually accomplishes things.
Think of how PUA can get you laid in certain situations but it doesn't work as well as actually improving yourself and taking the Red Pill properly.
max_peenor 5y ago
On the net, you are right. However functionally it doesn't matter. The reason why people succeed is because of their certainty. It moves armies and resources and makes shit happen. Yes, there are the losers that also thought they knew better and blew it out their ass. The reason why you see competency, is because this latter group fades from our memory very quickly. The reasons for their success and failures could be completely random and utterly out of their control. The unifying factor is the certainty.
Nicolas0631 5y ago
You at least need your lack of expertise to not be too embarrassing otherwise people will avoid you at all cost regardless of your certainty.
max_peenor 5y ago
See this is where things tend to work out. Those that could mount a case that you are incompetent usually lack the skills necessary to make a public case. People expect another leader to lead them to safety, not some nerd. Yes, sometimes leaders actually know what they are doing and are able to dislodge posers. This is not an excuse to be a bold idiot. Nevertheless, I stand by what I said.
Oh, and if being embarrassed is concern of yours, you have already gated your future success.
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Nicolas0631 5y ago
We all see how predator floorish in the wilderness since homo sapiens has been there. There always a more cunning man out there. The thing is the most powerless human on hearth could decide and succeed killing you and if he isn't too stupid, never be punished for it.
Remember that even the predator hide in ambush. Also, you should ask yourself what you want the appearance of power or the actual power. From what you says, appearances seems more important to you.
ebaymasochist 5y ago
Only because we live in a time when the range of men is so wide, where before a 600 pound man would be eaten by wolves, now he is just a second class citizen who still lives, along with 10000 other bad behaviors that not long ago would have been weeded out of existence... There once was a time when the beta was only second in command until the alpha went down, then he was ready to take command, because he was close to equal. Now I know that's different from how we use the terms in this context of completely different sets of behaviors and lifestyle, in the traditional sense there should not be such high variance between the males in a group...
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ebaymasochist 5y ago
I just had a weekend where my sister in law and three of her kids stayed at my house, along with my daughter, her friend and my son. Three children under 6 years old, 3 teenagers, and two grown women. It was a learning experience. It's always interesting when you notice behaviors in children that they should grow out of, but you also see these behaviors in grown men
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Vikingcel 5y ago
Sounds like GLO just started watching Varg.
vileoat 5y ago
Imho, good and I mean truly good leaders are also good followers as they know what needs to be done, what power hierarchy is and don't look at power as some achievement.
The power is just like sex. It's much more valueble when you don't have it.
If you act like power is your goal, you maybe get it but it will be hard to keep as you don't know it's long term purpose. If, on the other hand, you have your goal, power will be just a tool for you. It maybe will be given to you or not. Though you will achieve what is truly important.
RedForEducation 5y ago
The whole point of a heirarchy is that there's only one at the top.
One has to learn their place on the pecking order, it's called followership. Just pick a hierarchy where the top echelon cares those those underneath... otherwise you're just a simp
AshyLarry27 5y ago
Another good post to help the over-compensatory types.
"Oh shit I've been a beta 'follower' instead of a alpha 'leader' this whole time, what am I doing?!? I got to start bossing people around and disrespecting the "the man" right away!"
Hold your frame, and be competent in what you do. I don't envision a TRP alpha in a "lower" half of some hierarchy as some guy taking shit from his boss. I envision him as someone the boss can count on, even lean on for help and sometimes guidance. He's a guy who has no problem bringing up his issues without it becoming over-confrontational. You can still be alpha even if you're in a "lower" position. I've seen plenty of bosses who have to "tip toe" when it comes to certain men. A title is just a title.
ebaymasochist 5y ago
Thank you for the contribution. I agree 100% and this is exactly what I had in mind when writing it
kalashnick 5y ago
Yes.
When I first discovered TRP, I realized just how beta some of my behaviors and mannerisms were, so I overcompensated by exhibiting stereotypical Alpha behaviors. This included me disrupting what were otherwise stable workplace heirarchies and climates in social circles.
I've matured since then. Discernment is key.
ebaymasochist 5y ago
I did the same, and enjoyed blowing the shit up a lot of the time, but it kept me away from a lot of people that I would have benefited from being around. There's like an internal power struggle that one has to be aware of, stability vs chaos
kalashnick 5y ago
We're in the same boat.
In my youth, too often people would desert me - boys and girls. I can recall times when I'd be in a conversation with a girl...one second there's curiosity in her eyes, and then the next, that look would vanish. Interest gone. Like a flame snuffed out. I would never hear from her again, having no idea where I went wrong. For years I thought, "What did I do?" "Was it something I said?" In my teen years, guys who were once friends became status-whores. If they didn't see me as a means to hang around with chicks, they wanted no business with me. To make a short story long, it all led to a lot of self-scrutiny and anal retentiveness in my choice of words. I promised myself I wouldn't be victim to that kind of treatment again.
womans_algorithm 5y ago
Same here. I started working recently. I was acting goofy, making jokes, being friendly, etc. My boss wasn't happy with me. I realized this wont get me far so i changed to being humble (i am new so i dont know shit), following his instructions and advice, shutting up and doing my job. My boss respects me more now and we have much better relationship.
While being goofy and cocky works with women, in my experience it doesnt fly in corporate world, maybe especially because i am computer science engineer and my coworkers are more geeky types.
Nicolas0631 5y ago
This is about to know when to act as an alpha and when not to. Most of the 48 laws of power are about actually being obediant in appearance to hide you true agenda.
In most situations, the idea is that you want to actually hold power, not pretend to have it. And pretending to have it, regardless if it is true or not make you a target.
With girls it is different, you have to prove you are worthy of her attention so you need to have high status. Here you need to make it clear that you are the boss.
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512165381 5y ago
There are some "natural" attributes that your are born with and are difficult to change - IQ, athleticism, dexterity, extroversion, likeability, leadership, alpha male-ness, sexuality. You just have to reflect on what you have and play on your best skills.
RPSilverfox 5y ago
The military is definitely an environment where you would need to learn to follow orders and keep your out of the box ideas to yourself until you put in the time and pass the tests to make rank. Even then you will always have a level of senior ranking people over you unless you become an admiral. In the corporate world you could potentially be promoted at any time if you impress the right people, and the culture usually permits a more entrepreneurial style where you can mold the company processes should you become the one in charge. I did both and while I completely respect the hierarchy of the military I became more successful working for a bank than I ever would have had I stayed on as an enlisted airman in the Navy.
halfback910 5y ago
One thing I'm glad I've learned with time is that the Shakespearean adage "Heavy lies the head that wears the crown" is very true.
I've reached a point in my career where I'm responsible for one direct report domestically, three direct reports internationally, and then like a dozen people internationally via dotted line. And it's cancer. I want to emphasize: These are good people. These are people I would pick in a draft to fill these positions. They are good at their jobs and, on the whole, good at "adulting" in general.
I still hate it. Even with good and reasonable people. Still terrible. I'm more or less the COO's right hand man ("Second only to Pharaoh" yadda yadda yadda) and I enjoy that aspect a great deal. I strongly, strongly believe it's better to be the right hand man than top dawg. It's a case of diminishing returns. When I moved up to my current position I had to put 20% more into my job but I got 40% more. Being top dawg would require 50% more and I'd only get like... 30% more.
I just think diminishing returns set in super fast. If you're CEO of a fortune 500 company sure you're loaded but it's worthless because you'll have no fucking time to enjoy it. I'm convinced that the people who fill those roles just love power on some level. Power is nice, but money and time are a way better combo imo.
Nicolas0631 5y ago
CEO or people in the board of administration often are only part time. It is common for CEO to control several companies. For member of the board to give advice to 3, 4 companies. Don't be fooled to think you need to work more when you are at the top.
The most important thing is to have people you can trust and delegate to so you can concentrate on working only on a few problems and know that the other aspects are within extremely capable loyal hands.
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halfback910 5y ago
Board member you're 100% correct. They're practically retirees. CEO you're 100% wrong. The average CEO works 63 hour weeks.
Well, that's the difficult part. This is like saying "All you have to do is launch the rocket into space and put the lander on the moon, then bring it back!"
ProFriendZoner 5y ago
I'm a very adaptable person. I can lead if the situation calls for it, but if it's someone else in charge I can follow. The catch is, I can follow without ulterior motives or trying to undermine someone. If it's not my horse in the race I don't care. I'll try to help whoever is running things. You never know when that can help you as well.
Remember just because someone is in a leadership position doesn't mean they can lead, supervise, manage, whatever the position calls for. You'll find out pretty quick who really does the leading. If it IS the manager he knows what he's doing. Everyone (for the most part, not including the problem employee) follows him. Others, who can't lead, it's the underlings that really run things. When people avoid the manager and go instead to an underling to solve the problem, that underling is the real leader (or alpha if you will).
I'm pretty sure we've all worked in a company that wasn't bad and they brought someone in who destroyed the place because they didn't have a clue what they were doing. This person would then move on in 2 or 3 years after destroying the trust and relationships that have been built up. People would be leaving the company left and right. It takes years to build the company back up to what it was, if they can do it at all. Don't be that guy. Some will say he has a don't give a fuck attitude. That's true. But the destruction caused will never be repaired. Then he moves on and does the same thing elsewhere. I've seen all of these scenarios more times than i can shake a stick at.
Zippy1776 5y ago
This is always viewed as an "or" between the two. In life, unless you're the bottom janitor or the sole owner of the company you have a boss AND subordinates. This needs to be an "and" in life.
bakamoney 5y ago
I would say it takes shitty leaders to make men not follow them.