TLDR: Having an excessive Fawn response is one of the main causes of Oneitis and People Pleaser Syndrome. An excessive Freeze response is the root cause of approach anxiety and fear of rejection. Understanding the fawn response can vaccinate you from oneitis, and having knowledge of the freeze response can prevent approach anxiety.
As you continue on your Red Pill journey have you ever asked yourself, "Why do I have onetis and approach anxiety all the time?". The answer maybe the you learned to overuse certain responses when dealing with perceived threats, especially women that you want to get with. For those that have "severe betaness" you may be actually have been a victim of childhood trauma and are are using certain responses excessively to survive in this world.
"Dealing with hot women can be stressful. The responses we use we to manage interpersonal stress says alot about us."
Fight, Flight, Freeze, and Fawn Responses
When you were in school you probably learned about something called the fight or flight response. The fight or flight response, (also called hyperarousal), is a physiological and emotional reaction that occurs in response to a perceived threat. It's a fancy way to say Stress. It's what you feel when you think a bear is about to chase you and your body is flooded with adrenaline. Besides the fight or flight response there exists two other possible responses as well; freeze and fawn.
" The majority of beta's behavior is to overuse the Freeze and Fawn responses, and underuse the Fight or Flight responses when dealing with hot women. "
Popular culture has long recognized three typical patterns of response to an experienced or perceived threat: fight, flight, and freeze. Each of them is fairly self-explanatory. In response to threat or actual attack (physical or emotional), the fight response is, "ll fight back!" The flight response is, "I'll run away" The freeze response is, "I'll become rigid and freeze, like the phrase "frozen in terror," or "I'll shut down and play dead," . The fourth response is the fawn response which means to "flatter, kiss ass, or act cute". Betas excessively over use the fawn response to please others when they see a perceived threat.
The 4Fs
Threat Response | Action | Normal Use | Heavy Use | Exclusive Use |
---|---|---|---|---|
Fight | taunt / confront / control | Enforce Boundaries, Leadership | Hyperviligence (always on guard), High Insecurity | Narcissism, Borderline, Control Freak |
Flight | hyperactivity / escapism / obsession / passive | No Contact , Entertainment, Video Games, Porn | Overanalyzation, Heavy Masturbation | Social Anxiety (fear of rejection), Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, ADHD |
Freeze | avoid / daydream / isolate / inaction | Daydreaming, Brainstorming, Meditation | Social Isolation, Procrastination | Dissociation (stuck inside your mind), Attachment Disorders |
Fawn | flirt / please / impress / lie | Seduction, Intimacy | People Pleaser, Oneitis | Codependency, Enmeshment (love addiction), Histrionic (attention whore) |
The 4Fs in detail
The following is an except from http://childhoodtraumarecovery.com
1) THE FIGHT TYPE – The individual who has become fixated, due to his/her childhood experiences, on the ‘fight’ response avoids close relationships with others by frequently becoming enraged and often, too, by being overly demanding. It is theorized that s/he is unconsciously driven to behave in this way because s/he has a deep-rooted need to alienate others so that an intimate relationship cannot develop (as such a relationship would make him/her intolerably vulnerable in that it would carry with it the risk of rejection, similar to the rejection experienced in childhood, which would be psychologically catastrophic).
2) THE FLIGHT TYPE – It is theorized that this type of individual, for the same reasons as above, avoids close relationships with others by immersing him/herself in activities (eg by becoming a workaholic) which do not leave him/her the time to build deep, serious relationships with others.
3) THE FREEZE TYPE – This type avoids serious relationships with others by not participating with others socially; often they will become reclusive and increasingly take refuge in fantasies and day-dreams.
4) THE FAWN TYPE – This type will often go out of their way to help others, perhaps by performing some kind of community service, but without building up emotionally close, or intimate, relationships, due to a fear,like the other three types detailed above, of making him/herself vulnerable to painful rejection which would reawaken intense feelings of distress experienced as a result of the original, highly traumatic childhood rejection.
Healthy Use of the 4Fs
Emotionally mature individuals are able to use any of the four types when dealing with a perceived threat. A perceived threat can be anything, but for the majority of people with beta behaviors hot women are unconsciously seen as threats, because they bring up of feelings of past rejection and sexual frustration.
Healthy Use | Example |
---|---|
Fight | To defend yourself in an argument. |
Flight | To use No Contact to get over an ex. |
Freeze | To brainstorm to create something. |
Fawn | To flirt with a girl you like. |
An allegory to this is Aang from the show Avatar: The Last Airbender. Just like Aang is able to master the four elements, (air, water, earth, and fire), an emotionally healthy individual needs to master all four threat responses, (fight, flight, freeze, and fawn).
Unhealthy Uses of the 4Fs
Some people only use one response over and over again. "Nice Guys" tend to exclusively use the Fawn response, and people with severe approach anxiety tend to exclusively use the Freeze response. Conor McGregor types tend to exclusively Fight responses, and the exclusive use of Flight responses are passive aggressive mamma boys.
Unhealthy Use | Examples |
---|---|
Fight | Have an emotional outburst over a failed shit test. |
Flight | Use porn, video games, or drugs to get over a girl. |
Freeze | Overananylze on how you will get out of friendzone. |
Fawn | Think of ways you can impress her so she will fuck you. |
Oneitis aka "Super Fawn"
Oneitis is the "Fawn" response on steroids, and people who over use the fawn response tend experience learned helplessness in sexual relationships. Learned helplessness is a condition in which a person suffers from a sense of powerlessness in a relationship. The learned helplessness is the reason why its very hard to escalate or make a move on your Oneitis. The reason is that the Oneitis is a "super fawn" stress response of unconsciously trying to to prevent abandonment. For many this "super fawn" response stems from childhood in that we felt we had to please our parents to earn our love. It's similar in nature to Stockholm syndrome in that the victim falls in love with their attacker. The Oneitis is an imaginary attacker that subconsciously gives us a primordial fear that she is going abandon you if you don't fall in love with her. What happens is you get a sense of infatuation because you beleive the Oneitis is the judge of your self worth. The Onetis has the ultimate power over you because she controls how worthy you are [in your mind]. To be vaccinated to the effects of Oneitis to develop strong personal boundaries and strong sense of self.
Approach Anxiety aka " Super Freeze"
When you see that hot girl and get stuck inside your head you are actually entering a strong freeze response. For many they enter a state of dissociation,( stuck inside your head), and become mentally frozen. The reason this happens is that the hot girl is seen as a threat to their fear of rejection or abandonment. The result is procrastination to approach the girl or brainstorming if they should even talk to her. For some people who have a "super freeze" response exhibit social isolation and heavy daydreaming. You have to understand that social isolation is very unhealthy and can create a "cult" inside your mind. Extreme examples of social isolation are the herbivore boys of Japan that stay in their rooms all day and watch anime for 15 hours a day. In extreme cases, some guys decide to go MGTOW and avoiding women all together. You have to realize that you can be brave and succeed in the sexual marketplace. The antidote is to work on self love and self compassion and realizing that "you are enough" and "assume attraction".
Passive Aggressive Escapism aka "Super Flight"
Escapism is the use of video games, hours of Netflix, smoking weed, or using hobbies to "escape reality" as a passive aggressive to deal with sexual frustration. Heavy daydreaming is also unhealthy because it prevents you from being in the present. Excessive masturbation is also a escapist flight response to sexual frustration. The root cause of escapism is using social anxiety or an obsessive need to be perfect. Performance anxiety and procrastination are symptoms of trying to escape your reality. The antidote to an excessive flight response is to meditate and be present in the moment. Instead of being passive aggressive, you must face reality and face your fears instead of escaping and finding ways to overanalyze situations.
Amygdala Hijacking aka "Super Fight"
When you have an extremely strong emotion you are usually experiencing amygdala hijacking. An Amygdala Hijack is an immediate and overwhelming emotional response out of proportion to a stressor. Borderlines and hot women that love to throw thermonuclear level shit tests are masters of amygdala hijacking. It can be described as "letting the monster out", and the only defense to prevent this super fight response is to develop strong self-confidence and a strong frame. You must develop emotional control and accept that you have control over your life. You must shift from an external locus of control in that people, events, and things control your life to a belief system of you having ultimate control of your life. You are in charge of your destiny.
The Origins of the 4Fs
The theory of the 4Fs (fight, flight, freeze, and fawn), originated from the book Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving by Peter Walker. Complex post-traumatic stress disorder (CPTSD), is a psychological disorder thought to usually occur as a result of repetitive, prolonged childhood trauma or abandonment by parents. The childhood trauma is usually psychological abuse by borderline or narcissistic parents.
Trauma Types (Exclusive Use of a Defense Response)
According to Peter Walker, the 4Fs can maifest trauma types when they tend to use the same defense response over and over.
The Fight Type and the Narcissistic Defense
Fight types are unconsciously driven by the belief that power and control can create safety, assuage abandonment and secure love. Children who are spoiled and given insufficient limits (a uniquely painful type of abandonment) and children who are allowed to imitate the bullying of a narcissistic parent may develop a fixated fight response to being triggered. These types learn to respond to their feelings of abandonment with anger and subsequently use contempt, a toxic amalgam of narcissistic rage and disgust, to intimidate and shame others into mirroring them and into acting as extensions of themselves.
An example are men that feel they need to control their woman or else they will leave them. These types tend to not have control of their self-worth and need constant validation from others to feel great about themselves.
The Flight Type and the Obsessive-Compulsive Defense
Flight types appear as if their starter button is stuck in the "on" position. They are obsessively and compulsively driven by the unconscious belief that perfection will make them safe and loveable. As children, flight types respond to their family trauma somewhere along a hyperactive continuum that stretches between the extremes of the driven "A" student and the ADHD dropout running amok. They relentlessly flee the inner pain of their abandonment and lack of attachment with the symbolic flight of constant busyness.
An example are beta providers that constantly feel they have to do things to earn love .Another example is the bodybuilder who has a belief that he is unlovable unless he is 8% BF and has 25,000 followers on instagram.
The Freeze Type and the Dissociative Defense
Freeze types unconsciously believe that people and danger are synonymous, and that safety lies in solitude. Outside of fantasy, many give up entirely on the possibility of love. The freeze response, also known as the camouflage response, often triggers the individual into hiding, isolating and eschewing human contact as much as possible. This type can be so frozen in retreat mode that it seems as if their starter button is stuck in the "off" position.
An example is the guy who gets stuck inside his head and has a strong fear of rejection when approaching a women. This guy gets performance anxiety and runs out of things to say in conversations.
The Fawn Type and the Codependent Defense
Fawn types seek safety by merging with the wishes, needs and demands of others. They act as if they unconsciously believe that the price of admission to any relationship is the forfeiture of all their needs, rights, preferences and boundaries.... They learn that a modicum of safety and attachment can be gained by becoming the helpful and compliant servants of their parents. They are usually the children of at least one narcissistic parent who uses contempt to press them into service, scaring and shaming them out of developing a healthy sense of self: an egoic locus of self-protection, self-care and self-compassion.
This is the guy that seems to get oneitis for every girl he meets and likes to lovebomb compliments to the girl. Another example is the PUA who has the belief that he needs to use tactics to impress women. A third example is the guy who is a classic momma's boy and has no sense of individuality.
Treatments
If you find yourself excessively using fight, flight, freeze, or fawn responses they can be balanced out by doing certain activities.
Excessive Response | Treatment | Treatment Examples | Benefits | Recommended Reading |
---|---|---|---|---|
Excessive Fight | Stop external locus of control thinking | lift weights, yoga, develop frame | stronger ego and self confidence | You Are a Badass by Jen Sincero |
Excessive Flight | Stop Perfectionism | meditation, affirmations | focus and high performance, high self love | Drama of the Gifted Child by Alice Miller |
Excessive Freeze | Stop Fear of Rejection | approach women, learn to trust others | develop social skills, live in the present , no approach anxiety | Self Compassion by Kristen Neff |
Excessive Fawn | Stop Learned Helplessness | develop boundaries, assertiveness training, develop your sense of self | immunity against manipulation, vaccinated against oneitis | No More Mr. Nice Guy by Dr. Robert Glover |
Conclusion
My hope is that learning about the 4Fs leads you to a sense of self exploration. Remember that you're NOT in this journey alone and that the responses you may have used excessively can be balanced out. You don't have to use a fawn response by impressing others for bread crumbs of attention.A freeze response of being in your room all day is not healthy. Letting others influence you and responding with a fight response is not necessary. Finally, you don't have to procrastinate as a flight response.
Go forth and prosper. You got this.
cornylamygilbert 5y ago
Wow totally needed this.
Thanks for helping solve the puzzle of self-improvement for me
Cgbgjr 5y ago
I had a bad case of "freeze" yesterday when I was cold approached by a HB7.
Hopefully the cold approaches will happen more often--and I _will_ be ready next time.
Great OP.
rockyp32 5y ago
It’s just too complicated I’m not sure which thing will help me or what I need to work on I think mostly of I’m the dawn and I’m scared a bit of rejection
Ella1570 5y ago
What do you do if you are dating someone like this? You can’t grey rock a partner can you?
Gozsayin2 6y ago
Damn I literally match up word for word for the freeze/Fawn description. Note I'm working on it but it's scary when you see the science
YngWn 6y ago
Great post, great read. A lot of this makes sense and i see it being applied on a daily basis (the good and bad stuff ofc). I'll probably end up coming back to read this at least 10 more times.
masteryimain34 6y ago
Thats was a good post, preciate it, mate.
fartingaround 6y ago
I guess im a freeze response
awakenedspirit1 6y ago
This is fantastic. As someone who developed oneitis recently - I wasn't sure what caused it. Fawn response for sure. Having it articulated so clearly is very helpful (I knew I wanted more boundaries - but wasn't sure why). Thank you for posting!
hirokinae 6y ago
Your post triggers my fawn response
spawnend 6y ago
I got recommended this book although I was already on this journey , because I had the info from other sources.
But this book is something else , it’s making me really focus and sniff out the critic’s attacks and my heavy freeze-fawn responses. Also awakening the fight response , I feel a beast is ready to come out.
redisthetruth 6y ago
Very well organized and written.
Reminds me to have compassion for the people I don't get along with. Everybody is going through his own shit and reacting/responding to the world in the only way he knows how.
The willingness to delve into and witness our own psyches so we can be brutally honest with ourselves about how we actually are, regardless of how it will disrupt the shiny image we have of ourselves in our minds, is the sign of true maturity.
Write more!
SpaceEnthusiast 6y ago
When I was younger I only knew about the Fight or Flight response. But later, after suffering through some shit, I also learned about Freeze. It wasn't until now that I learned about Fawn. It's strange, but it makes sense. These 4 Fs remind me of the work on attachment styles where we have 4 different ones:
of which only the secure one is healthy and the others have some combination of avoidance and low self-esteem. The names are suggestive for combinations of some of the Fs. What do you think?
[deleted] 6y ago
Highly disturbing to be able to identify these things in myself, and what may have caused them, but now they can be treated with appropriate action. Brilliant post,
TheRedPike 6y ago
+1
max_peenor 6y ago
This is one that is so constantly missed and it is just as primal as the others. Just watch cats. If you catch one doing something they shouldn't't be doing and yip at them, sometimes they will tense up and then just flop over on their backs. Pleasing and submissive behaviors are actually assertive defenses, just not ones we (masculine men ) should be doing.
TrueFacets 6y ago
Nice Post! Keep it up!
How do you deal with people like this, I live in a House with 4 other people, one of them meets this description exactly. I myself am more of a people pleaser (which is bad too I know). However, Im infomed quite well and I know I need to not run away from conflict and work on my discipline. This guy however is not really that smart(not the kind that reads a lot, he doesn't know the internet and reddit) and his behavior fucks up his relationships and harms himself more then me. how can I deal with him in a manner that is somewhat "productive" for both parties ? "Winning" would be easy, simply team up with the others in the House completely and single him out as asshole... but that's a very destructive solution.
p3n1x 6y ago
Your scent of questioning sounds female, as if trying to "fix" / "manage" another guy. You also sound like you are the one in a relationship with said guy.
Is he coming to you for advice? If not, mind your own business.
The only potential measurement of "relationship success" is a region of happiness.
It comes off like you are using this persons life as an alignment tool for your own. In your first sentence you admit your personal sin, fix your own shit first.
RP men know that win / lose in matters of subjective material is a futile waste of time.
Make up your mind, either this person is toxic in your life or they are not. The fact you would consider some form of "backhand" subterfuge shows you are just as big of an asshole.
If he doesn't harm you, then leave him alone. You are "scheming".
Mr_Badass 6y ago
You have to use something known as "the gray rock technique" when dealing with people who have emotional outbursts. The Gray rock is extremely effective against narcissists because you're not taking their bait.
Also here is an excellent video on how to use it as well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKv77LTKil4
TrueFacets 6y ago
Thanks! Unfortunately it doesn't help in my situation. I can "deal" with him. It doesn't improve the situation in the house when he switches target. The end result is someone leaves and someone new joins our group. Leaving me with the decision to either leave too or stay. I am the one semi successfully mediating between parties.
(its a cool big house where I can host events and organise gatherings with friends, that's why I stay there. He is the one renting the place so he has the ultimate "power" to decide who joins an who goes. But it's also not that easy to find people since the place is kinda expensive)
Mr_Badass 6y ago
The problem is that he is the only that can change and has a need for narcissistic supply. If you confront him, all hell breaks loose. If you don't react, he takes it as license to continue with their abuse. If you can manipulate the narcissist by identifying what they are terrified of then you can control them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCxgtXzKwCQ
TrueFacets 6y ago
Thank you for your responses.
What he is most afraid of is being excluded or being rejected by his friends (has happened before). This makes his behavior worse. Basically getting no attention at all and being ignored, is the worst for him. He doesn't have really close friends (or at least they change over time). While I can be friends with almost everybody quite fast. What to do with this knowledge ? manipulate him how ?
Anyway, I can't watch the videos right now but I will this evening! I'll get back to you when I need to know more.
xenigala 6y ago
Get some friends together and rent your own place. Living with someone like this can be draining and harmful.
Or the other roommates and you could confront him as a group and get him to move out.
Orpheusdeluxe 6y ago
I second this. Stay true to yourself (don't lie to yourself) why you find reasons to stay with someone like that. Imho (no offense) i can somewhat read out of your story: you try to please the group again...
[deleted] 6y ago
Great post. I could identify myself in many examples you described.
[deleted] 6y ago
Really thanks for the post.
SpaceEnthusiast 6y ago
Btw the book is called No More Mr Nice Guy
Mr_Badass 6y ago
Thank you, I have corrected this error.
SpaceEnthusiast 6y ago
Also, amadyla hijacking? Shouldn't it be amygdala?
Mr_Badass 6y ago
True. I fixed this as well. I wrote this post on my laptop because my PC was in storage. Corrected!
[deleted]
gkt3 6y ago
Logged in for the first time in months to thank you for this, OP. I feel like TRP has helped me a great deal to prevent/overcome excessive fawn and flight. Still have a lot of work to do regarding the freeze responses I have, still battling approach anxiety. Posts like these make me not regret visiting this sub every once in a while, keep it up.
nvm_rsix 6y ago
Great post, very well structured and informative. Unfortunately I could identify myself with over using something between the flight and freeze responses. Atleast I know how to improve now, thanks.
unkg 6y ago
Amazing post, the most informative I've stumbled across on this subreddit so far. Thank you.
Sym4niX 6y ago
Thank you Sir! May I have another!
Mr_Badass 6y ago
Welcome, I hope the information is useful. I have another theory I am planning to post in a few days. The theme is Self-Compassion, which is rarely discussed in TheRedPill.
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Sym4niX 6y ago
The organization and presentation of this post is fantastic, and easily absorbed - a model for future posts, from a long time lurker POV.
The content - side bar material.
TheIrishSoldat 6y ago
I'm looking forward to seeing what you can do.
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HS-Thompson 6y ago
This is one of the better posts I have seen here in a long time. Somebody give this guy some flair.
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sleepkxng 6y ago
Excellent post. Keep it up.