"No Ring, No Baby: How Marriage Trends Impact Fertility" isn't the usual shit, and in it the author Lyman Stone asks, "So why has marriage declined?" The author gives reasons like "financial need, personal unpreparedness, and lack of a suitable partner. Those last two factors speak to the role of culture." Then there's a bunch about culture.
Nowhere is a link to Real World Divorce, which explains, in exhaustive detail, why smart guys don't marry. Marriage is an extremely high-risk activity for men, and it carries very little commensurate reward. If you want real-world examples, just go talk to pretty much any guy who has ever divorced. My friends have reach the "divorce" stage of their lives. It's ugly. Many are basically financially fucked for the rest of their lives, or at least for the next two decades.
For guys, it can make sense to marry a woman who makes a lot more money than he does. Most women, however, don't want to do that.
Our legal system has helped destroy marriage as much as the culture system Lyman Stone cites. Maybe we should have divorce reform.
Lyman Stone seems like he hasn't been over-conditioned by feminism, but he still isn't willing to look at one key factor behind the fall of marriage: the incentives facing men.
On the blog I have been compiling pieces about why marriage is stupid for the kinds of functional guys women say they want to marry. There are many, and many of you will be familiar with them. The best thing men can do is "Just say no." When I've told women that I will never marry, they are shocked. I ask them why they think marriage is a good idea. They are surprised and no one has ever asked them that. They say, "But it means you're in love!" I say that marriage has nothing to do with love and that I don't need the state to pry into my love life. Usually the conversation ends there because most women have not thought about what marriage is (a contract). They usually know instinctively that it's good for them, and they're right, because it gives them a powerful financial option on men, while giving me pretty much nothing in return.
As men, all we can do is say no.
[deleted] 6y ago
women dont even give the average looksmatched man a chance. they think life is like instagram and only consider wealthy established men as options.
BlackMwoyo 6y ago
We need more reason to talk about these things because I think it would be great for people like me who want children but don't want to get fucked either.
Denver_Luv3 6y ago
You are looking for co-parenting. Most women hate the idea of coparenting because they want a lock on a man's financial resources as well.
But as more women realize that the marriage dream dies by age 35, they may become open to it.
Stories like "Marry Him!," by a "feminist," help.
My favorite RP truths are stated by women.
le_king_falcon 6y ago
Oh that article is fucking enraging to the point that my anger and distaste totally overrides the schadenfreude it gives me.
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BlackMwoyo 6y ago
Man Co-parenting deserves a thread of its own because all I'm finding is Co-parenting after divorce. As if society wants a man to get a divorce smfh.
Matthias_Foley35 6y ago
Same here bro. Got an upvote.
blkMGTOW07 6y ago
Couldnt agree more. Have an upvote
ttam07 6y ago
Truths like this are the reason I'm not getting married ever.... ever....
WoodWizzy87 6y ago
That article made me throw up on my mouth a little
[deleted] 6y ago
I read stuff like that and it just makes me feel so much pity for women. They want everything and will waste a lot of their life trying to get the best of everything only to get old and realize that missed their chances for happiness
hawkeaglejesus 6y ago
I mean who wouldn't be thrilled to be seen as a glorified butler/ATM?
ttam07 6y ago
I see a trend coming that if you don't submit to this narrative you will be labeled as a sexual predator (see: MeToo, previous article, etc...)
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empatheticapathetic 6y ago
Jesus that article was absolute death. The complete lack of awareness of the idea that of a single mom is completely unattractive in every way to a single man with the self respect they want to attract is poor.
[deleted] 6y ago
I don't know, man....the article was exactly about settling. In other words, she was exhorting women to own their SMV. I can't help but agree that they don't get how unattractive they are to single dudes with no kids.....some single dudes have kids, though. And settling might be a good idea for them!
empatheticapathetic 6y ago
Sure but that's not what I meant by single dudes.
What I meant was the way it was written. Completely full of shit although the message was correct, the way it was delivered was so typical in a feminine way that couldn't acknowledge their own ridiculous level of entitlement.
[deleted] 6y ago
Well now, she can't go and put her Hamster on a leash, now can she?
empatheticapathetic 6y ago
I know it's a redundant point. I'm just observing and ranting to get it out.
ozaku7 6y ago
Knew a girl who pulled the "no ring, no baby" trick. Didn't work, so she stopped taking the pill, got knocked up and said "there is a baby, so now you have to marry me".
Fucked up shit really.
[deleted] 6y ago
I can't wait for the day there is a male pill
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iwviw 6y ago
Male bc is coming soon ftw
mrcs84usn 6y ago
They keep saying that. I'm really wanting this Vasegel thing to take off, but it seems like it's been "coming soon" for like 10 years.
Rommel0502 6y ago
The decline of the nuclear family/marriage has gone almost in lock step with the government subsidizing single parenthood. The commensurate shackling of men assures someone else bears at least some of the cost.
IMO its all planned. Cracked family ensures dependency on the government. Betazation of men allow for a much more easily fleeced specimen.
HerefortheTuna 6y ago
as less men marry I wonder what these women will do. Im 26 nd my friends are all turning 27. I have been to very few weddings. Alot of my female friends (acquaintances really) aren't even in relationships/ haven't been in any for years..but I see them on tinder.
Its gonna be hilarious to see them get knocked up and divorced in the next 5ish years
askmrcia 6y ago
This is exactly what I'm seeing as well. I know alot of women and I'm 27. So I know a few around my age, but many in their early 30s.
Just like you described, most aren't in relationships. They have guys they are fucking or on tinder. I say guys they are fuckin because you can tell they aren't planning on marrying these dudes unless they get desperate, which is what the ones in their 30s are doing.
They join all these co ed rec league sports or on multiple dating apps. Easy to pump and dump but definitely not marriage material. Fun times
HerefortheTuna 6y ago
I felt really bad because I was at this party of this girl i know the other week. She just got a boyfriend who is 34 and she is 26. I fucked her a lot back in college and she got with several of my friends after. She easily has an n count of 30-50. But she still invites me to her parties and flirts with me in front of her boyfriend.
This is a recent relationship for her because last time I saw her over christmas break she let me drive her home and smash as well.
I kind of credit this chick with red pilling me because I used to kind of have a legit crush on her until she rejected me for a relationship and got with my friends. Since then i've just seen her as a plate.
askmrcia 6y ago
Hopefully the guy she is with isn't taking her seriously either. He's 34 so one would hope he would know better then to be a cuck.
But if he's completely ignorant then its on him. The older I get, the easier it is to sniff women who had a crazy past out no matter how hard they try and hide it.
HerefortheTuna 6y ago
I think he’s pretty aware. I talked to him for a good while. He did construction and now works at a bar so he must know....
But still she’s gained a gut and smokes too much weed. Also she’s black and he’s white (I’m mixed) I think he could do much better. Final red flag she has no clue who her dad is (raised by a single mother)
askmrcia 6y ago
Yea that sounds like a train wreck is ready to happen any moment
BluepillProfessor 6y ago
It is already happening and you are right. It is hilarious.
/r / whereareallthegoodmen
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mrcs84usn 6y ago
Started reading through this sub. It's like "Blue Pill Examples" on steroids.
[deleted] 6y ago
I'm pretty loyal to TRP and love the original content here. One of my stock phrases these days is "Spinning plates is a reasonable response to open hypergamy" and I stand by it.....and I can "blue it down" for softer ears.
I looked up that sub, whereareallthegoodmen, and clearly it's either a sister to or at least a meeting of the minds with TRP. Plenty of the same terminology, some of the same men, etc. I had to look up at least one link.....and it was scandalous.
It was so perfect, it was hard to believe, but it was an archive from /r /relationships and it looked authentic (I love the lack of links from TRP partly because of this, I don't have time to reality check shit like this).
An erudite young man started dating a girl he had known for a long time....his admitted n-count was 3, her admitted n-count was ~30, both approaching 30 years of age. He was trying to get past her past....the post was at 33% when archived, and the comments were brutal, shaming the living shit out of him...in a Red Pill context of a woman riding the CC sees the Wall coming and is taking some Beta Bux over Alpha Fux while she still can.
Brutal. Absolutely brutal.
I'm so glad I found this sub and Blackdragon before getting in another relationship. I literally had another mans girlfriend hanging on my arm this weekend....he was amused, too, there was no tension. These fucking muscles are like crack to women.
Be the bull, not the cuck, and for FSM's sake, be very wary of commitment (not that I'm telling the professor what to do, this comment is for others).
askmrcia 6y ago
Oh I believe you. I don't even bother getting into any debates about the n count. You can sound calm and composed as Jesus when you mention that marrying a girl with a high n count is a bad idea and they will attack you personally. They will call you insecure, stuck on the past, not a real man, ect...
But really that's all you need to know. The fact that they get so defensive means that deep down inside they are regretting whoring around or the men (white Knights) regretting that his wife handed out her best years while he gets starfish sex.
Sometimes I like going to the askmen, purplepill debate or relationship subs to get a good laugh. I mean they are truly advocating cuck behavior. My favorite is when their argument is "I know a Virgin and once she got into a relationship she became the biggest whore I know, see can't judge someone on their past." I just shake my head. That's the go to reddit debate move. Using fiction anecdotes to Make an argument.
ozaku7 6y ago
where are all the good men? To the place where all the good women are maybe? That's like a smelly homeless person wondering why people don't approach them closer than 6 feet away.
Lateralanouncer 6y ago
It cracked me up how woman’s sort term thinking can’t c what is happening. Basically Good men (by woman’s definition alpha beta) have heaps of options and are still fucking younger woman. The woman are simply to old for them. Why would a successful 35 year old + man hook up with a has been 35 year old banged out old whore. Tables turn at that age and only the top 20% woman can get men.
Traksimuss 6y ago
Unfortunately like 80% women still get men, just not the ones they. Hence called "settling", and they despise their chosen men.
Hugh_Munghous 6y ago
The quality of men is at an all time low, with the result being that the relative value of successful men has gone up. In that sort of environment successful men are less likely to marry because they have a lot of options. Meanwhile women only really want to marry high value men, not the low value ones.
This is probably being exacerbated by the fact that you now have many more women than men attending college and professional programs like law school, with the disparity being even greater with certain racial groups like blacks. As women typically want to marry at their own social level or higher, you end up with a lot of them not getting married due to the disparity between college educated females and males.
There are, of course, a lot of other factors going on, both economic and ideological. Here's two examples:
1.) Our media hammers people with this concept of individuality and self-importance. Everyone thinks they're on the cusp of doing something great of valuable and that having children will interfere with this. In reality neither you or anyone you know will do anything that's actually remembered in 100 years, but we live in a modern cult of individual "specialness." Having a family is framed as the death of the individual because it is a switch from being a single person to being part of a unit.
2.) Real wages, opportunities, and debt are different today than they were just a generation ago. Your grandparents had more kids than you but not just because they were less selfish; they also had more money, relatively speaking, in terms of what they could buy with that money. People today are too busy repaying student loans for worthless degrees to consider spending money on children, and if they have children they'll have maybe one or two.
That said it's interesting that women throw away traditional gender roles while simultaneously cherry-picking the traditional aspects they like. Women will gladly accept the diamond ring but then tell their husband that they won't take his family name because that tradition is somehow oppressive and vestigial.
Anyone who claims they don't want children should be forced to go spend time in a elderly home. Go see what the lives are like of those who are old, dying, and have no family. It's pretty fucking grim, and only idiots fool themselves into thinking they won't be in that situation someday, or that it's so distant as to not matter.
cuggwy 6y ago
Hmmm some painful learning in there about the care home. I suppose going childless will leave you alone towards the end
TheDevilsAdvokaat 6y ago
I was a postie in my younger years. I used to deliver to an old person's home in Australia. The wails, moans, smells of shit and piss gave the horrors.
I will die in my own home - alone, if I have to. I will never move into an old person's home.
thewrecker8 6y ago
Many of them do have families. The thing is their kids/grandkids move away. Or they have families of their own and in today's society are too busy dealing with their own lives to spend much time sitting in an elderly home other than the occasional trip here and there. The sad truth is being old and having health issues sucks no matter how you cut it. Modern society is ironic. Many people spend their younger years sacrificing their health for wealth. Only to sacrifice that wealth later for health.
[deleted] 6y ago
I think there is a word we are looking for to describe this reality.... is it dystopia?
[deleted] 6y ago
Can confirm the rest home scenario. You're better off dying young. No, seriously, you are.
[deleted] 6y ago
Whats the point of being in your 80's.. Dementia, and no one bothering with you
Chaddeus_Rex 6y ago
Despite what is common in America, being a broken shell of a man in a nursing home at age 80 is far from a foregone conclusion. In many parts of the world (eg Japan) elderly live well into their 100's and are able to live independently. Many of them do not slow down significantly and continue to engage in sports and activities they have been doing for decades. Why could this be? Why does this disparity exist? Partly it can be attributed to the collectiveness of Asia, partly it can be attributed to Asians valuing discipline, physical activity (not necessairly body building, but physical activity nonetheless - that is why they have so many martial arts) and healthy eating. Many older Japanese men have had lots of sex in their liftetimes too and this also helps longevity. Though I question whether this will change with the new generations.
BasebornLion 6y ago
Dumbass alert. They're so well off they have to resort to committing crimes to go to prison just so someone will take care of them huh? http://www.businessinsider.com/japan-aging-prison-2018-3
Chaddeus_Rex 6y ago
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/japan-people-over-100-centenarians-new-record-economy-struggling-2017-9
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2016/09/13/national/aging-japan-now-65692-centenarians/#.WrEoKssXYwA
Youre the dumbass. Japan has a large proportion of aging people, most aren't doing bad. Some are as to be expected. The point is (that you didnt even understand) is why does Japan have so many (relatively healthy) old people.
TheDevilsAdvokaat 6y ago
When I was a boy in the 60's marriage was what people did. But in Australia int the 70's and 80's we had some divorce law reforms that destroyed men's lives.
It was so bad I decided never to get married in Australia. There were a few men I knew personally and seeing what was done to them decided it for me. Marriage was not for me. I was never going to be a rich guy; I would be lucky if I could afford to buy and pay off one home in my lifetime (Aussie prices are insane.) I could not "gamble" my life's proceeds on a relationship with a woman who could at any time choose to divorce me and have a very good chance of taking away the only house I'd ever own.
It wasn't until I left Australia and moved to China that I felt it was safe to get married. Not only that, no-one I know in Australia married an aussie girl either - one married a girl from the Philippines, two married girls from China, the others never got married at all.
If you make divorce laws that are obviously biased against men, don't be surprised that men don't want to marry any more.
Timeturner136 6y ago
The fukin system is flawed. I'm American Indian and the entire society degrades an individual if they are not married by age 30. Woman have it worse, you might be the next Bill Gates, but without a family you don't get respect ????
Helpcalculus 6y ago
It's really interesting to observe what's happening in the west in terms of marriage and legal outcome associated with it.
Here in Eastern Europe, divorce simply means that a girl moves back with her parents. I haven't heard a single divorce rape.
If you were to ask my parents' generation today, 90% would agree to keep the family together no matter what happens. Cheating, beating, financial bullshit, etc. They will stay together for the sake of the children and the negative reputation that a divorced individual carries (cultural). They will hate each other forever, but remain together nonetheless. However, I fear it might slowly creep in. While divorce is an unheard of for older generation, at least 50% of the young married people I know have been divorced these days.
I don't know how long it's going to take for the divorce rape to pop up and settle in, but for now this part of the world is quite safe for men.
[deleted] 6y ago
Why would any smart man get married? You could just pump and dump through your 20's and 30's, 20 years of fun.
Then once you hit your late 30's you can just a surrogate baby if you feel like it. Better than being financially ruined by a failed marriage.
Helpcalculus 6y ago
I have the same mentality but still don't like the fact that the kid has to grow up without a mother.
I need to see if there's a study on single parenting and the psychological effect it has on kids.
yummyluckycharms 6y ago
Fun fact - there are virtually zero studies that analyze kids growing up via surrogate vs. kids growing up alone because mommy decided she didnt love dad anymore.
there are studies that analyze kids that are raised by single parents after a tragic accident, and the kids turn out equivalent to kids raised in stable homes. Maybe more independent.
Helpcalculus 6y ago
I was searching and found a study "Children raised in mother-headed families from infancy: a follow-up of children of lesbian and single heterosexual mothers, at early adulthood" conducted in 2010.
It points out a very significant difference between single mothers by divorce and single mothers by choice. All in all, the study claims that children turn out just as fine in single mother (by choice) scenario as in regular 2 parent family.
However, the study was conducted on 27 solo mother families, 20 lesbian mother families and 36 two parent families. I don't think that 83 families are anywhere close enough to derive statistics from.
I'll keep looking and edit the comment if I stumble upon a better study.
[deleted] 6y ago
Money is a big fucking thing in this case. Have you seen rent prices? Have you seen job offers? Do you know how much a kid costs for like 25 years?
http://www.prb.org/Publications/Datasheets/2012/world-population-data-sheet/fact-sheet-us-population.aspx
Why do you think Eastern European's abort kids at the rates they do?
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/mapeuropeabrate3big.gif
WiseMonkeyGoodMonkey 6y ago
No. Being in love means you"re in love. Being married (from the male perspective) means you"re fiscally shackled for the rest of your life to a woman that has a 50% probability leaving you.
adonis_forte 6y ago
I just need a babysitter. I don’t need a wife. Missed me with that trad-con shit.
Tacosauce3 6y ago
I'm just visiting this sub, so I dont really know exactly what it's all about, but I have a question (not an attack just honestly curious) do you all not believe that men and women can genuinely love one another and be a good match? I've been with my partner for going on 11 years and we really are like a partnership. We make our decisions as a team, neither tells the other what to do, and we are both on the fence about marriage and kids. I know that it isn't possible for every person to find a good match, but I think its depressing the way relationships are discussed in these comments
adonis_forte 6y ago
Trying to find a unicorn and getting married is like dumpster diving in a human landfill. Love is just a chemical reaction. Kids are just a means to carry on your genetic legacy. Life is boring lol.
[deleted] 6y ago
Don't have the value you create depend on the currency of your government.
Create value outside the sphere of influence your government holds over you, and they can no longer rob you through the forced appropriation of your government currency.
Give to Cesar that which belongs to Cesar, and you'll be free from his tyranny.
reddishworm 6y ago
Bitcoin, Gold, Silver.
In germany, in your welfare/unemployment application form they already ask for your bitcoin wallet. Yeah right, it is 1A1zP1eP5QGefi2DMPTfTL5SL-fuck-you
Jake_le_Dog 6y ago
This sounds awesome, but what materially manifested values can't be seized by a government? Can you give an example?
[deleted] 6y ago
Your competency, your knowledge, your skills, your health.
Invest in your body and your mind.
Chaddeus_Rex 6y ago
The government can seize your health too through torture. There is only two things they can't take - your education and your will.
[deleted] 6y ago
The day I have to seriously worry about that is the day I walk into the mountains with my dogs and a backpack.
Chaddeus_Rex 6y ago
The day is coming sooner than you think. The government seems to be adopting more authoritarian tactics and engaging in torture of those it perceives as enemies.
Jake_le_Dog 6y ago
Okay, so not really material possessions.
[deleted] 6y ago
Can't take it with you.
I've lost or had everything taken from me about 3 times in my life.
You learn that the only thing you can't afford to lose is your health. If you have your health, you can rebuild your life.
Everything else is just stuff.
Jake_le_Dog 6y ago
Yeah, agree. You gain knowledge and health through gaining of possessions. If you lose your things, you even reestablish them more easily.
I thought though you had some advice for material.
[deleted] 6y ago
Don't own anything you can't replace.
[deleted] 6y ago
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okiedokie321 6y ago
Do it but don't make any more money than her.
Dmva100 6y ago
Children are leverage. Don't have yours with a woman unless you've got a plan to keep her away/ ousted once it comes out the big stretchy cooch-eroo
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