....Or as safe as you can. I should say.
Okay this is a little off the normal topic of things. But i was suggested to post about it by one of the mods. and let's face it lifting is such a main focus on this sub that it's stupid not to think some guys aren't going to want to try gear or at least be curious. I'm not condoning the use of steroids especially if it is not legal where you live or without doctor supervision, natty is always the better and safer way to go. This is strictly for education purposes and my personal experience. I have used gear and also couch others on it. You wouldn't believe the lack of knowledge and research people have on the topic. Especially guys who jump right in and do everything wrong without any research. If run properly you can have great benefits especially at an older age and run as TRT (testosterone replacement therapy). I'm going to get really basic with this just to inform people who are curious but have little to no knowledge.
Word of knowledge
Everyone's body is different. One compound may give me great results while another may give you all side effects.
With that being said, this is mostly a trial and error of what works best for YOU in particular. The reason I say this is because when I first started I wanted the perfect cycle. The problem is everyone's "perfect cycle" is different. And if you search the Internet on this stuff. Your head will explode because 100 people will tell you a 100 different ways to run something. And the way you're doing it is wrong and their way is right. But you don't know shit about these people or what they look like. So listen to your body. And know that more isn't always better.
Basic as it gets
Although this is a very broad topic I'm going to try to educate you as best as I can without bombarding you with every little detail. Pretty much an ELI5 without giving my personal opinion too much.
Injecting. make sure you learn proper and safe sterile techniques. But injecting is the way to go. If you are planning on just taking orals. I would say don't waste your money. Because you will lose everything almost as soon as you stop. And it is very hard on the liver to run for long periods of time.
Although I said everyone's perfect cycle is different. The best and safest first cycle IMO. Is just taking a low dose of testosterone. A low dose would be about 250-300mg a week. Most guys run 500-600mg their first cycle. The right way is to try to maximize off the lowest amount possible.
Testosterones have different esters. This means how long they take to leave the body once absorbed. Short esters hold less water, long esters hold more but allow you to inject a lot less. A longer ester is a better choice for your first cycle. Longer esters include test Cypionate and test enanthate. They take about 4 weeks til you really start to notice what you're working with. But you will gain weight with in the first couple weeks. Mostly water weight
Labs and A.I.s
You should always get bloodwork done. Before your cycle to see what your normal levels are. 6 weeks in to see how you're reacting to the drugs. And after you stop to see how long it takes for your levels to return to normal.
A.I.s are aromatase inhibitors they are used to keep your estrogen levels at bay. When you put synthetic test into your body your test levels will obviously rise. The testosterone then converts into estrogen. So you will have high estrogen. Because of this you should always run a mild A.I. Like arimadex about 2 weeks into your cycle to keep your estrogen at bay. This will prevent estrogen sides and bloating. And Just because you don't experience high estrogen sides (gyno aka man boobs) doesn't mean you don't have high estrogen.
Aromasin and letrozole (strongest) are stronger A.I.s they actually kill estrogen in the body. You need some estrogen but you don't want it too high or at 0. That is why arimadex is usually used first. If you start to get high estrogen sides. Like sensitive nipples. It's smart to try a stronger A.I.
HCG
Human chorionic gonadotropin
Should be taken during you cycle also. This prevents your body from shutting down its natural test production. The old school way was to run it in your post cycle. But it's better to run it during and after. It's more of preventing your balls from shutting down (especially if you want kids) then Recovery from them being shut down and running it just post cycle.
PCT
Post cycle therapy
The name of the game is time on = time off. The amount of time you spend on cycle is the same amount of time you should spend off to allow your body to recover. Most cycles last 12-16 weeks. Sometimes longer. Sometimes sorter. It's all preference.
A good post cycle therapy is running nolvdex. Clomid. And hcg.
These drugs allow the body to recover. By kick starting your balls to produce test naturally again and preventing estrogen sides.
They also allow your body to help maintain what you have worked so hard for.
Some guys especially over the age of 40 never come off test and do a pct. they do what is called "blasting and cruising" blasting would be upping their test dose and/or adding other compounds. Cruising would be considered as their "time off" but instead of coming off they just lower their test dose to about a 250mg a week dose (varies). As you get older your testosterone naturally declines so men use this as a test replacement therapy for their natural test (where the term TRT comes from). This is also known to have many good health benefits.
other compounds
After you have ran a cycle of just test one or two times and you have no adverse effects you can add in other compounds. There are a variety of them that all do different things. Have different benefits and sides. It's smart to only add one in at a time so if you have an adverse effect you know exactly what is causing it.
Orals are usually used to kick start a cycle or end one, because of how fast they are in and out of the body. Most of them are hard on the liver but are very effective.
Steroids although most of them speed up your metabolism. They do not directly burn fat like most people thing. You may lose fat but it isn't their main purpose. Diet is still very very important when taking steroids. I know guys who run all types of Shit and look worst than most natty guys. Genes, diet, and training play a major major role in how good your results are. They allow you to recover fast and better utilize the food you put in your body. But they are no super magic pill like society programs us to believe. You still need to put in the work and diet. You can get away with more than someone who doesn't use. But you can still look like Shit if you don't bust your ass.
Fat burners are compounds such as DNP, clen, t3 and t4. These compounds are used to burn fat and have no direct effect on muscle growth really.
wait as long as you can to go this route
It's very bad for your body to start running roids at 18 years old. Allow your body to fully develop and reach your natural potential before thinking about trying this stuff. If you are looking to compete this is eventually a route you're probably going to have to take but wait as long as you can to do it.
I hope this gives you some idea of what is involved in a cycle. Like I said there's a lot of information out there in it. This is the very very basic. Do your research and consult your doctor before taking anything.
Edit:
It is also good to note that just taking orals alone is probably a waste of your money you are likely to lose almost everything once you have stopped taking them.
[deleted] 6y ago
Why will you lose everything if you only take orals? Thanks.
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RedHeimdall 6y ago
T3 and T4 as in thyroid meds help with fat burning?
TrenGod37 6y ago
Yes.
All steroids and fat burners weren’t made for what they are used for in body building.
Clen is another fat burner it’s made for people with asthma. But it raises body temp and causes your bronchial sacks to expand
Anavar was made for children and females with leukemia who otherwise bodies would eat their muscle. Add it to someone who doesn’t have leukemia and lifts. You get ripped
za-care 6y ago
I was thinking of doing a steroid cycle for the first time. Was researching about it, so think post came at the right time. As I have some questions. I am leaning against doing it, as I understand the minimum cycle is 12w, but I will be travelling in 11w. I also understand that the post effect can be difficult, especially low libido, which would suck when I travel,as it can last anywhere from a month to three month... So I am thinking to not use it. What the advice?
ironmiketyso 6y ago
I lost 100+ lbs in the course of 9-10 months leaving me with some loose skin (not enough too really damage my SMV, but still having an impact). I’m wondering if anyone has had experience on how these aesthetics correlate? (Assuming use started only after reaching max genetic-potential)
Scandinavianredpill 6y ago
Why the fuck would you go on steroids? to look freakish? Trust me, if you optimize your program and diet you can in 3-5 years look like a boss. Yes It takes time, but it also doesn't fade away as easily. Taking roids is retarded in my mind, you will end up bigger than is good looking anyway.
People that only believe you can get big doing roids are usually retards that just haven't understood how many variables you can play around with. even with the same excercises there are thousands of ways to perform the reps and they give different stimuli.
Example: after you have done your big lifts, are you doing controlled high reps? Have you tried it with compounds over a long period of time. There is this thing called metabolic stress, it induces hypertrophy. Have you tried resting more? (not overtraining), have you tried upping the volume, upping the frequency? Have you tried to run programs that go in cycles and are made by people that know alot more than you? Have you tried to be patient?
That is not even mentioning the difference in type 1 and type 2 muscle fibers in different muscles that make them have different optimal stimuli. These are the kind of things that make it so that you can go to the gym for several years and not be close to your true potential, it is also what gets great physiques a chorus of guys yelling: "roids, genetics". What is amazing is when guys realize they have been doing things wrong after years of training, then changing something important and see them get their physique to another level, I think thats why a guy like Mike Mathews is so popular, his physique was average untill he figured out what he responds best to.
315skwot 6y ago
OP's post is helpful in the way that it is preventative. If you do it, do it right. There's a lot of misinformation on these posts as it is and Trengod did a reasonable job presenting it well. There is a post right above this that talks about using way stupider shit, why? for the same superficial reasons, but it is dramatically less safe. Also I do understand the nature of your post and I support it. For anyone considering, lookup Lee Priest, he talks about how steroids destroyed his life(he's a bodybuilder? so kinda mixed signals) but mentions the mental effects of taking steroids too early.
AllahHatesFags 6y ago
Can you just take the aromatase inhibitors by themselves and get anything from that?
UnbreakableFrame 6y ago
Beginner's Guide To Using Steroids Safely:
Don't.
lowtiergodz 6y ago
I mean or you could use sarms before you jump ship no needles way better than being natty
315skwot 6y ago
A case in point for doctors being wrong about this stuff. HRH(hormone replacement therapy), they prescribe blast and cruise cycles, why would you do that? all you do is antagonize receptors and you get less effect with more substance. Hormone use isn't good or bad, it's how you use it like every other drug. Paul Erdos used amphetamines, Jobs used LSD, you can use whatever you want as long as it a tool and you aren't abusing it.
This post + T nation has lots of great information about this stuff. I haven't been on years but if you want to do it the right way, talk to your doctor, get a second opinion from your folks on T nation and read a lot. Everyone is wrong because it is hard to anticipate how your body will react. For example, your first cycle run ONE substance. This is to see what your body handles and what it doesnt. if you run anavar and tren and TEST E and you get a side, now you can't come off immediately, you can't stop one because you arent sure which one all you can do is taper and waste the money on that cycle. PCT is important, don't start a cycle without your PCT in place.
pr1vateparty 6y ago
>alpha
>ruining your health for roasties
xD
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SouthernFit 6y ago
How to look like a Greek God using hormones.
Step 1. Understand ALL the risks involved. IE: mood swings, risk of getting bad gear, infections, tren cough, risk of shutting down your natural production of testosterone and other hormones, low libido, high libido, bp issues, blah blah blah.
Step 2. Inject the following
Trenbolone A - 75mg ed
Masteron P - 50mg ed
Primobolan E - 800mg ew
EQ - 800mg ew
Gentropin - 2iu ed
Step 3. Eat in a caloric deficit until you're 6-7% bf. Make sure you get enough protein and healthy fats.
Step 4. Watch heads turn when you walk by without a shirt.
Fuck PCT, go to the doctor and get them to prescribe test after you crash your shit from this blast.
Once you try hormones you will NEVER forget how they made you look and feel. DONT take this decision lightly you WILL become addicted (psychologically).
In all seriousness, don't do that cycle as your first go with hormones. Once you have some understanding of how things work, that stack will absolutely take you to a level you would never think is possible.
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TrenGod37 6y ago
I hope you forgot the test by accident
SouthernFit 6y ago
Great spot. Add Test p, keep it low. 150mg per week to keep the water down. Wanna get really insane you can take it out completely, just don't expect to have much of a sex drive.
Sgtballz 6y ago
My experience at 38 was with low test in the 200's. Doc told me anything under 400 can take 10 years off your life. I was worried about pinning and was informed that I was young enough that the testies would come back naturally. My Doc put me on a simple anti estrogen, and DHEA (OTC) In 2 months I was back in the 600-700 range. You have no idea how this changes your outlook on life. How you feel. How you react. How you think. There are other ways to get your mojo back but you gotta do the blood work and see if your AFU. If not natural works just fine.
pinchymcloaf 6y ago
A word of advice to anyone considering this.. After years of working out with minimal results, it did cross my mind to try steroids. Although I wasn't considering it too seriously, I did start the research process. Anyways, while researching, I came across the book 'Starting Strength' and instead followed that program as closely as I could. I put on 30 lbs in 2 months and doubled most of my lifts. I was jacked! Didn't feel the need for steroids after that. Don't even consider doing them until you can see what is possible to achieve naturally..if you're not seeing results, maybe you're just not doing it right..
Nathaniel66 6y ago
So what was that you were doing wrong that book made you realize? Some breaking points, mile stones?
pinchymcloaf 6y ago
Mostly programming, such as doing the same muscle group twice a week, 5 reps a set, and increasing weight each time...also I did follow the gallon a milk thing, so I gained weight fast. Breaking points...had some knee and back pain for sure from the squats, my body doesn't have the best posture so I was probably pushing it too hard. Milestones -> after only 2 months I had almost doubled all of my lifts, and put on ~30lbs of weight, and not just fat, I was pretty muscular
Nathaniel66 6y ago
There's something with this milk...when i switched water to milk in my post-workout protein shake my weight went up in no time.
pinchymcloaf 6y ago
Since everyone is so interested, here are my before/after pics, best I could do anyway..as you can see I didn't turn into a fatass. I'm 6'5. I actually lost more weight after the first pic, I was around 220 in that one but then went down to 217 before starting the program. Around 247 lbs in the 2nd pic https://imgur.com/a/U26Yzoi
[deleted] 6y ago
you workout with minimals results because you are stupid. my brother( and me) workout for a few months (after taking a year off) and we have noticeable results, aesthetically and strength wise
sorry but unless you are trying to look like ronnie coleman, i struggle to understand how you dont have results after 'years' or working out
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jbnw17 6y ago
Took me 3 years to gain 30 pounds fml
DeadliftRx 6y ago
Slow and steady. You have time to spare.
315skwot 6y ago
What to take away from this. "If i don't know/ just started starting strength, I should probably not be thinking about steroids".
ClockworkActual 6y ago
You put on 26 lbs of fat if you gained 30 LB in 2 months. Without steroids you'll be LUCKY to put on 2 lb of muscle in a month, especially if you're an intermediate lifter with years of lifting behind you.
zBrettz 6y ago
lmoa 30 pounds in 2 months. I guarantee only like 2 pounds of that was muscle. The rest... straight fat.
pinchymcloaf 6y ago
don't make me put together some before/after pics..
[deleted] 6y ago
Relevant
SS is complete garbage if aesthetics is your goal and Rippetoe's diet advice is even worse. And remember, don't train like a powerlifter if you want to look like a bodybuilder. Also, bodybuilding is not for everyone. That's why some people get minimal or close to no results. Genetics is a bitch.
DeadliftRx 6y ago
Yeah my house has no foundation, either.
pinchymcloaf 6y ago
that dude had tits before and after lol..I think SS is amazing for beginners, regardless of if the goal is powerlifting or bodybuilding, and then after completing the program you can change it up to achieve your goal. My before/after SS pics would be much more impressive than what you showed, poor guy has very bad genetics
BusterVadge 6y ago
It is a great program for beginners. SL is good too, but if you wanna look good PHUL or PHAT is better. You get to build strength AND muscle that way. Only problem is it requires more time in the gym.
rp_southsider 6y ago
I had similar results with Starting Strength and I'm in my late 40s.
When I started I could barely squat one plate and my form was horrible. Two years later and I'm squatting three and a half plates for reps and deadlifting close to four plates for reps. These are not huge numbers compared to the rest of the world but they are far in excess of what I expected to achieve when I started.
I've put on a bunch of muscle and women compliment me on how strong I am.
Pay attention to diet, supplements and sleep. Lift consistently and ensure your form is good when things get heavy. Get a coach, the Starting Strength coaches really know their stuff.
A nice side effect from putting the work in is that it refines you as a person. You learn to deal with daily life more easily. A girl giving you shit or someone cutting you off in traffic are a lot easier to handle than having 150kg on your back. The Barbell Logic podcast about Voluntary Hardship is a good introduction to this subject.
I don't think PEDs are necessary if you're willing to put in the work. Being willing to put in the work will also make you a better man.
Youngyoda89 6y ago
Wow. I’m deadlifting 3 plates and 1 ten plate and everyone stares at me when I’m lifting. I understand that isn’t much compared to the rest of the world but at my gym I’ve seen very few people lift more than that. AGAIN- I UNDERSTAND IT’S NOT THAT MUCH; I’m just noting what I see.
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Omnibrad 6y ago
And if you can’t naturally lift to put on muscle, if you can’t do that right, think twice about whether you can even do steroids right.
DNDthegathering 6y ago
Pretty much sums up the sane view of steroid use. They’ll make things faster and maybe take you beyond what is naturally possible if you choose to go there, but the added list of things to take into account to manage your overall health prevents steroid use from being considerable as “easier”. There’s a reason being swole is still a status symbol.
max_peenor 6y ago
Which everyone should do for every decision. We aren't here to tell people what to do. We are here to share ideas and experiences.
The bloops are no doubt gnashing their teeth over us just discussing this topic.
TrenGod37 6y ago
I totally agree with this. A lot of guys think by taking steroids they can get huge without doing anything. This is so far from wrong you actually have to work HARDER.
dgafplaeya 6y ago
Excellent post, what you wrote is great, if guys want to hop on a cycle, they should at least do it right! But please don't spread disinfo...
You can sit on the couch and still grow more muscle while on gear than busting your ass in the gym while being a natural. I advise you to read this study from the 90s
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199607043350101
They had four control groups, all men who were experienced lifters. 1 natty no-exercise group, 1 juiced no-exercise group, 1 natty exercise group and 1 juiced exercise group. During the 10 weeks of the experiment the natty exercise group put on about 4lbs of muscle, the juiced NO-EXERCISE group put on a little more than 7lbs, that's right sitting on the couch while on juice you can gain almost double the muscle than sweating in the gym as a natty! Of course the juiced exercise group put on the most at around 13lbs. It doesn't stop here. The juiced no-exercise group gained almost the same amount of strength as the natty exercise group on the squat and bench! Keep in mind, these are all experienced lifters.
Since then, other studies have been conducted, you can browse the 650+ papers citing this one.
So in closing, no, you don't need to work harder in fact you don't need to work at all while on gear, and will still put on more muscle than natties huffing and puffing in the gym. What gear does, as I'm sure you very well know as you are someone who uses it, is it helps you work harder by diminishing recovery time substantially. While a natty should do no more than 12-15 sets per week per muscle group, on gear you can easily go up to 30-40 sets.
I've seen plenty of guys in my 10+ years of lifting come-n-go in the gym, hopping on and off cycles. Most of them lack one thing, that which TRP is all about, a kind of frame I'd call "lifting-frame". This frame is about not giving a fuck about how you look a couple months into your lifting, but continuing to do it patiently for the 5-10-20 years it takes to build a jacked physique naturally. Taking gear to quickly put on some muscle is totally equivalent to losing frame in front of a chick. Going on a cycle after having developed a great physique and substantial strength naturally is an entirely different case of course.
I put it all as part of the learning experience.
[deleted] 6y ago
Thanks for clearing up the mis info by Trengod. Every study about steroids shows this.
TrenGod37 6y ago
If you want to look like you use gear. You need to work harder and eat more than if you’re natural. Period
You don’t grow without food. You have to eat a lot more. A LOT. And a lot of these compounds curb your appetite. That alone is hard work force feeding all damn day.
If you’re muscles aren’t tearing. They aren’t repairing. There for you aren’t growing. You can train longer and clearly lift more. And you get what you put in.
If you think Ronnie Coleman and Arnold were working less than your hardest working natty you’re insane..
I’m not talking about mediocre bullshit muscle. If you’re running gear. You’re doing it to get ripped. I don’t know a natty who works harder than any fucking huge guy on gear in the gym
MasRock310 6y ago
stop bullshitting. people already think i'm doing gear and i'm natural. so please tell me more how actually doing gear will do anything but make me work harder to look like i'm on gear...
Youngyoda89 6y ago
Also note that as a natty it is not optimal to work harder than someone who is on gear. Due to the ped’s speeding up recovery time it allows someone on ped’s to worker harder, longer and more frequently.
DareyFathom 6y ago
Anyone that is willing to do the work to research, purchase, and plan a proper cycle is going to be disciplined and approach the gym with a high intensity.
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dgafplaeya 6y ago
I'd say it is a necessity to lift natural before running gear, and you nailed it, because the joints and tendons need to develop too. Hopping on a cycle after a couple of years is much safer, but even then, it should be kept conservative, since the soft tissue will still not adapt as fast to the sudden increase in muscle mass.
This is why I don't condone programs which increase the weight lifted by 5-10lbs every session, technique fails and guys just muscle through the exercises. Best to keep doing a weight for a month, increase the reps slowly during another, and switch to a higher weight e.g. +10-15lbs only after this. In this way you can add 100-150lbs to your lift in 2 years, 200-300 in 4 years etc. Its slow, but we will get 4 years older anyway, why not get stronger in a bulletproof and healthy way? It's a rare day when I see a deadlift or squat performed properly. Putting on 1-1.5lbs per month as a natural seems to be the safe growth rate. On gear, 1lbs/week for a 12 week cycle is a good rate.
For your second question, I don't think it applies to steroids.
[deleted] 6y ago
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TrenGod37 6y ago
You don’t grow without food. You have to eat a lot more. A LOT. And a lot of these compounds curb your appetite. That alone is hard work force feeding all damn day.
If you’re muscles aren’t tearing. They aren’t repairing. There for you aren’t growing. You can train longer and clearly lift more. And you get what you put in.
If you think Ronnie Coleman and Arnold were working less than your hardest working natty you’re insane..
BlackCraneStoic 6y ago
That's what blenders are for. A Peanut Butter, Almond, Chocolate, Whey, Wheat germ shake mixed properly can give easily over 1000 calories with 2 servings and 100+ grams of protein along with solid macros. Really easy way to gain.
dgafplaeya 6y ago
Come on...
Even with top notch genetics, it takes about a month to put on 2lbs of muscle naturally. Mr. legend, Arnold himself, said it took him a year to put on 25lbs. Let's say you were a new kid on the block, and push it to 5lbs/month. That means 10lbs of pure muscle in two months (highly unlikely). Even then you put on 20lbs more. Either you are BSing or that 20lbs was fat, i.e. 10lbs of muscle 20lbs of fat....
WalterEArmstrong 6y ago
Adding 25 pounds of muscle in a year seems like good progress to me. Of course I'm just 5' 7" buy even if I were 6' that'd be decent progress.
NoahBorch 6y ago
20-25 lbs in your first year is considered to be the natural limit for most people, so keep up the great work!
zuraken 6y ago
During college I was 120-125 lb at 5'8" took the class that lets you use the gym for 0.5 credits, all I did was show up 2 times a week for 1 hour each and play around like a jungle gym (childish) trying to see the heaviest weights I can do for 3-5 pulls or whatever, then relax a for 30 seconds and try another machine. Towards the end of the semester I was 150lbs and can do much higher weights and way more reps of the old weights.
Locoboy713 6y ago
dude, that's just simply newbie gains which I am sure you are aware of. You were 125 lbs @ 5'8, even you are a ectomorph , it doesn't take a whole lot to gain weight if you start lifting heavy and eat more. Everyone has different genetic potential and ceiling.
zuraken 6y ago
The thing is, I wasn't even trying to gain, Just got on the scale and like wtf I'm 150 now. Just ate when hungry, played around like whatever fuck all.
Captain_Save_A_Hoe_ 6y ago
If it was easy then everyone would be doing it...
pinchymcloaf 6y ago
Starting weight was 217lbs, ended at 248lbs. I'm not saying it was all muscle, but I definitely didn't look fat by the end of it, but swole instead. And my lifts improved more in that 2 months than in the past 10 years before that.
dgafplaeya 6y ago
Well, what can I say then? You should thank your parents for your out-of-the-galaxy genetics. What was your bf% when you started?
DareyFathom 6y ago
You must have had some terrible workout regimen and diet to put on that weight in two months.
Iwannachokekatie 6y ago
30 lbs * 3500 calories = 105000 calorie surplus
105000 / 60 = 1750 calorie surplus a day
And that's if it was all just fat.
[deleted] 6y ago
That dude doesn't know shit. There's no way pinch could do that. He's just talking out of his ass.
antariusz 6y ago
I just am finishing up a cycle.
Around May 1st I weighed my lowest adult weight ever at 178 (5’8”). I had been dieting for 7 months, including almost 3 months of keto. Back around October I was at 220. (Roughly 2lbs per week at the beginning tapering to 1lb per week towards the end)
8 weeks of cycling with prohormones, and I’m at 208 at significantly higher strength and lower body fat than before.
30lbs of weight is doable, in one cycle, for sure, but it certainly helps if you’re coming off a cut.
manwithoutwire 6y ago
Just admit you took the real deal, prohormones won't give you those kind of gains, not even close.
antariusz 6y ago
1 Andro, epi andro and 4 andro stack.
Although I’ve had luck in the past with M1AD before too.
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antariusz 6y ago
Right, and 1 andro is essentially a steroid, while epi andro becomes dht and 4 andro becomes test.
BlackCraneStoic 6y ago
By any chance you read Frederick Delavier's Strength Training Anatomy? Also a great resource.
jackandjill22 6y ago
Yea, steroids? Y'all can keep that.
Gobraves44 6y ago
Who do the author? I see few different books on amazon. I need this book!
greenlittleman 6y ago
Obviously what this is most obvious and popular - author Mark Rippetoe and you could see it as first result in google.
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BlackCraneStoic 6y ago
Read the summary and the book seems a bit dated. It promotes barbell strength building which is relatively good but claims barbells are the most effective for lifting and that is false based on ncbi studies. For compound lifts like bench press Dumbells have been shown to incite substantially more muscle activation than barbells on account of increased range of motion with dbs over bbs. Good for absolute beginners it seems though.
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BlackCraneStoic 6y ago
Yeah. In reference to the injuries. On that note I'll recommend giving Strength and Training Anatomy 2/ Strength Training Anatomy Workout II a read. If I recall correctly. There a two books one red and one blueish black with a guy deadlifting. It's the latter one.
Created by former French Bodybuilder/Artist who studied anatomy in college Fredrick Delavier with the help of Micheal Gundhill he extensively covers techniques to incite growth, different exercises that target one specific muscle. How to avoid injury. How to train in relation to your morphology, etc.
A book on training that doesn't cover how to avoid injury isn't good. From injuries not only do you lose time in the gym but also time previously spent in the gym as well.
JDeegs 6y ago
So basically it took you years to realize that following a program is better than just fucking around working out.
Nihev 6y ago
By doubled you mean from 100 lbs too 200 lbs or from 255 lbs to 500 lbs?
Sumsar01 6y ago
The average person can run the SS LP to around 3 set of 5135 kg on squats (after 12 weeks og training). I have a friend who took it to around 5165 kg and if your a freak like Chase Lindley you might even tale it past 200 kg. Do however do your research propperly on SS before doing it. To maximise gains.
pinchymcloaf 6y ago
Closer to the first one. But my point is it's better to max out your natural potential first.
[deleted] 6y ago
"After years of working out" and "2 months doubled most of my lifts" makes no sense unless you were completely wasting your time in the gym for YEARS.
TheBattleshipYamato 6y ago
That's exactly what most people do.
Sylvester_Sterone 6y ago
https://leangains.com/fuckarounditis/
Nihev 6y ago
You can squat 4 plates. It just takes massive effort and time. Gear is just the easy way out and I see nothing wrong with that
10211799107 6y ago
Getting to a four plate is squat is easier than you think.
Metalgear222 6y ago
Completely relative to training age, height, weight, and bone structure
Youngyoda89 6y ago
Metal gear, you’re in pretty good shape brother. What are your lift numbers like?
Metalgear222 6y ago
5'8 187lbs
405 squat, 285 bench, 265 row, 500 dl, 185 press
Youngyoda89 6y ago
Nice. Good solid numbers. Realistally- how long did it take you to reach the bulk of that? And what type of workout program do you follow?
Metalgear222 6y ago
This is my 9th week of a 12 week program called Madcow from stronglifts website. It has put on a lot of mass and strength, with a bit of fat. I started at 175 after a cut 9 weeks ago.
DeadliftRx 6y ago
Despite those differences, I really don't believe that healthy males are not capable of the following numbers, before steroid use, within 2-3 years of training:
185-200lb The Press™
300-315 Bench
400 Squat
500 Deadlift
[deleted] 6y ago
Did u consider bone size such as wrist circumfirence? Mine is 5.7" and i'm 5'9.
DeadliftRx 6y ago
Of course. Bones densify under the progressive overload.
[deleted] 6y ago
Source? That would be phenomenal. I'm 23, so i doubt bones will grow.
Metalgear222 6y ago
Very few people start healthy and have proper training from day one.
10211799107 6y ago
I disagree. SRA cycle works for every human being. Proper programming and form is key. We've done it with a lot of people with the same mindset.
An_All-Beef_Engineer 6y ago
What timeframe are you thinking?
Sumsar01 6y ago
If you train and eat optimally it can be reached in 4-9 months of optimal training. I recommend SS LP and then Barbell Medicins free program "the bridge" when you cant add weight on the squat every session anymore. They also have just put up a fix for the early stall people usually experience on bench and press om SS LP.
10211799107 6y ago
98% of guys can get there within about 9mo of consistent training, eating and sleeping. We've done it plenty of times.
wanderer779 6y ago
might be a sampling error going on here
10211799107 6y ago
Note, I didn't say you will lose weight or get abs. To get strong you have to eat and sleep. Sampling might be in err on your end
DeadliftRx 6y ago
If you're dedicated, less than a year is possible, but most people simply won't work that hard. It's more mental than physical to get under 405 for the first time.
10211799107 6y ago
Yep. Helps to have a training partner to yell at you when you want to pussy out on a specific volume day. It's way more mental, 100% correct.
[deleted] 6y ago
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Nihev 6y ago
Ehh I dunno. I'm 6'1. You weigh a ton and still cant squat jackshit. Maybe its easier for manlets
10211799107 6y ago
I'm taller than you and squatting volume in the 340lbs. Guys are full of excuses, programming and form with a dash of willpower is all it takes.
Nihev 6y ago
And how much do you weigh and how long did it take you to get there? Squatting 4 plates isn't exactly near the top 20 important things you should achieve
10211799107 6y ago
Sit around 235lbs when not purposely gaining weight for a PR. When I coast I'm about 225ish.
Nihev 6y ago
Yep. That's a lot of weight
Reynaldo7 6y ago
beginners often stay beginners or novices by following bodybuilding programs first rather than a strength and size programs first. Youre only as tall as your base.
Youngyoda89 6y ago
I endorse this. Tg gave me some cycle tips way back when on a diff account. Shout out tg he knows his shit.
hakubamatata 6y ago
Ok I’d like to safely try it, I’ve just read through hundreds of comments and no one is GIVING IT TO ME STRAIGHT? What is the safest road to getting my ands on stuff that isn’t dodgy? And yes I will get my blood work done... I presume my GP can point me where to go for that
Where do I get the stuff? Why is it so hard to just give some step by step directions ?
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Martysteiner 6y ago
One of the guys at the gym used this although the couch said he shouldn't do that.
Anyways, this guy got bigger. He was absolute beast, everybody could see that. He married and had to quit gym for 4 or 5 months. By this time, he stopped caring about his body and left gym diet.
After 5 months, his body was like plastic like melting up and down. Never seen a person with such a bad look.
Just sharing out an experience.
BlackCraneStoic 6y ago
Useful video when it comes to determining whether or not roids are worth it. Couldn't care less about anyone else's stance of using them I know where mine is but it doesn't hurt to be informed.
Halitenina 6y ago
This is a reminder to the community that the following types of posts will be removed and met with a ban:
-Comments about morality
-Comments about what, definitively, men should and shouldn't do
-Comments about source talk (per reddit's rules)
PEDs is generally a taboo subject, but here at TRP we care about results, so it's about time we opened the floor to the topic. I encourage everyone to share their experiences (in contrast with their opinions, which will be removed).
And remember that nothing anyone posts is meant to be a substitute for going out and gaining real-world experience. Do your damn research.
SgtBrutalisk 6y ago
Sorry, what does this mean? I've been here for 7 years and never saw it referenced.
EuropeanAmerican420 6y ago
So, basically every post breaks this rule and now you can ban any post based on your own whims. Got it.
BroseppeVerdi 6y ago
They don't really need an excuse for that. Mods can ban anything at any time for any or no reason.
LiveAFTSOV 6y ago
There's a difference between:
"Here's a social/sexual strategy - here's the theory, I tested it and works - I highly recommend you do it."
Versus...
"YOU SHOULD NEVER EVER USE STEROIDS. THATS LYING AND LYING IS MORALLY WRONG AND EVIL. WOMEN DON'T DESERVE TO BE LIED TO. REAL MEN DONT USE STEROIDS EVER EVER EVER!"
[deleted] 6y ago
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TrenGod37 6y ago
Hair loss only happens if you’re already prone to hair loss. It just speeds up the process. If you aren’t you won’t go bald. I have a full head of hair and many other pros do
TheTrenTrannyTrain 6y ago
People who don't know what's it like to live a low T life have no idea how beneficial AAS can be.
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nuffsaid666 6y ago
Meh.. Got ripped anyway without this shit.
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EnzoGold 6y ago
Bro what?
TrenGod37 6y ago
Awesome results mine were very similar
Vibez__ 6y ago
Fucking lol. So much bad shit happens to people on steroids and especially once they come off them. Natural selection at its finest right here.
TrenGod37 6y ago
Show me the research. The bad shit happens to those doing other shit. Like stimulants. Or insulin. Most deaths are due to insulin. Not test.
Vibez__ 6y ago
Research: "guys grow fucking tits"- Every Doctor ever. Case closed. You're welcome.
TrenGod37 6y ago
That’s why you take an anti Estrogen... it’s all written there. I know tons of guys who don’t get butch tits. You get them if you do them Wrong.
And doctors. Don’t put guys in TRT for no reason.
Andromeda-1 6y ago
Research the cause of gynecomastia and you might actually learn how to prevent it.
MisterRoid 6y ago
The problem with running a low dose is that steroids are illegal in many countries, and you have to buy junk from underground labs that's often underdosed. It's not worth running TRT doses and shut yourself down if you already have a healthy testosterone production.
[deleted] 6y ago
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DeadliftRx 6y ago
The manufacturers of veterinary-grade steroids know exactly who their customers are and they don't want to have their profits blown. They often manufacturer human-grade steroids, as well, usually from the same process. I thought this was common knowledge.
[deleted] 6y ago
Best vendors for human steroids?
Dabunghole 6y ago
Yeah you’re right GLO, but they only make pharma test, anavar, and deca. Other compounds are not made pharmaceutically so you can’t get them that way. Guys on here would see no benefit from using primo unless they are a competitive bodybuilder.
The__Tren__Train 6y ago
there's pharma halotestin an anadrol
Dabunghole 6y ago
Sure. But good luck getting a script for either one. No MD or NP would risk their license to write you a prescription for those.
[deleted] 6y ago
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Dabunghole 6y ago
You should have mastered your training and diet before you even think about steroids. Five or six years minimum of training as a bodybuilder before you should start.
Whisper 6y ago
Your general sentiment is correct. Pulling numbers out of your ass does not add value.
Dabunghole 6y ago
Wasn’t pulling those numbers out of my ass. I really believe you should have that many years of training and experience dieting before you start. However, those numbers can vary.
Whisper 6y ago
And what data, prey tell, did you base that number on?
Dabunghole 6y ago
A decade of personal bodybuilding experience. And years of steroid usage. Several of my friends who are open division IFBB bodybuilders and myself agree on those numbers. What would you recommend? I can guarantee you don’t have the knowledge or the experience on the subject that I do.
Whisper 6y ago
Picking a starting point based on your health, age, situation, goals, and experience.
One size fits no one.
Dabunghole 6y ago
I agree with you on that. But you would be foolish to jump into steroid usage immediately, just imho.
Whisper 6y ago
Agreed. There's no point. When you're new, you're going to get stronger by doing anything more than looking at a weight. Burn through those novice gains at the very least, and probably it's a good idea to wait longer than that.
Dabunghole 6y ago
This is the same sub that is trying to get guys to start lifting. We shouldn’t advertise steroid usage anyways. It draws bad attention and could lead to trouble for the sub down the line. This sub has done a lot for many guys, it would be a shame to see it go for advertising gear usage. There’s other subs for that.
Whisper 6y ago
TrenGod37 6y ago
Good point. People think they can hop on gear. Eat whatever. Train however Take whatever and look like Arnold in a month.
It’s so far from the truth
Dabunghole 6y ago
I know tons of guys who look like shit and are on grams of gear. They just don’t really know what they are doing.
vandaalen 6y ago
That's why I actually think that your post - while surely informative - is unnecessary. Whoever is ready to hop on gear has usually learned enough about just from hanging with guys at the gym who are on gear that he should know how to start and who to ask for advice. All the other guys are just looking for shortcuts or are trying to fix their mental problems with steroids and won't bother to listen to advice anyways.
Just hang a week on /r/Testosterone and find out how many people are desperately looking for validation of their wish to go on "TRT" even though their natural levels are abslutely fine.
TrenGod37 6y ago
That’s so far from true. I won’t get into the reasons why I know this to refrain from incriminating myself but so many guys have no idea what they’re doing and just want to hop on because of the societal view they have on it.
They try to run cycles without any knowledge of an AI. They come off cold turkey. This lack of knowledge by so many guys who are tryin to jump on is the main reason I wrote this post
vandaalen 6y ago
Did you even read what I wrote?
TrenGod37 6y ago
Misread it. But that being said I think some guys will listen they come to me not knowing shit but looking for it. I tell them this right here and they at least have the knowledge to start right
vandaalen 6y ago
Didn't want to dismiss the content of the post and I appreciate profound knowledge put in a quality post.
The__Tren__Train 6y ago
not at all.. what arbitrary bullshit
AlmightyPerun 6y ago
I mean, the amount of time is indeed arbitrary, but you should under no circumstances be taking steroids if you aren't a veteran, and especially not if you're still a teen. Newbies generally don't know shit about discipline, proper dieting and (workout) programming, they sure as fuck shouldn't be jumping on 'roids.
There are far too many risks involved, and you don't need steroids to look great. You should at least see what you're capable of without steroids, and then decide if you want to use them. You can't do that without at least 4 - 5 years of training.
As mentioned, medical conditions are a completely different subject which has nothing to do with this post, which is generally targetted at gym-goers/recreational lifters. Obviously, none of what i said applies in such case.
[deleted] 6y ago
Emm, you can't be big and shredded (8%bf). It is just not possible. Altough 'looking great' is arbitrary and has much to do with genes (muscle bellies, insertions, symmetry, clavicle size, etc.)
AlmightyPerun 6y ago
Who the hell even mentioned any of that bullshit? I certainly didn't. No, looking great is not arbitrary by any means and has practically nothing to do with genes. You're just using mental gymnastics to justify your failure or inability/unwillingness to do the hard work.
This guy ( goo.gl/EjMwRq )? Zero percent genetics, zero percent steroids, 100% hard work. And he doesn't even look that amazing. Just really good, but you can certainly achieve more. Quite literally everyone can look like that, provided they spend a few years in the gym.
None of what you said matters when it comes to "looking good". It matters in professional bodybuilding, but we're not talking about professional bodybuilding. We're talking about obtaining 15 - 25kg of muscle mass and losing the unnecessary fat (being at 12 - 15% is perfect), which will automatically make you look better than 80 - 90% of the men out there. All that is required is WORK, nothing else.
[deleted] 6y ago
Bro, educate yourself. If u didn't mention it that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Not in my country, tho. Don't live in fatmurica.
Dabunghole 6y ago
It’s not arbitrary bullshit at all. What a stupid fucking statement. You must be stupid as fuck.
The__Tren__Train 6y ago
nice.
what would you say to men who are born with primary hypogonadism and low testosterone?
putting an arbitrary 5-6 'minimum' is by definition, completely arbitrary.
Dabunghole 6y ago
Those guys have medical conditions and would need those prescriptions. Guys are on the rp aren’t looking to use steroids for those reasons. Lol
The__Tren__Train 6y ago
they might be.
how many guys here do we get asking about increasing testosterone - only to be told to take a cold shower with avocados while standing in a 'power pose' with a UV light on their balls?
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throwaway27lol 6y ago
It’s about time PED discussion was talked about here. Every time it’s brought up, the neckbeards speak as if it’s the devil and that all our results are fake.
Steroids are a tool with pros and cons that the user can decide to use or not. A lot of comparisons can be used to other things like using TRP to learn game and fake it till you make it, or even choosing to ltr, plate, or marry.
My only comment will be, you should learn to lift properly and build your body naturally a minimum of a year before you take steroids, and make sure you do your research.
If done properly, you can truly explode your body and consequently you’re mind and confidence, but the Consequences are very bad if you use steroids recklessly.
[deleted] 6y ago
More like 3-5 unless u are in a hurry, like old
Store_Front_Door 6y ago
I mean if you're trying to educate the younger crowd do it properly. Include basic stacks, what drugs go well with each other, what drugs don't. Include estimates to when to start the pct, depending on the half-lives of the drugs used. More info on hcg. Info about what blood tests to take and what they indicate. (For example which receptor indicates that your natural test production is shut down and which one indicstes that your production is fine, but only your T is low ((increase/continue PCT))
315skwot 6y ago
Anyone who is smart enough to see the value in this post should spend months doing research on T-nation about this and there are good resources for beginners.
Darkone06 6y ago
Only thing you need is a fat bowl of weed before any workout.
Anything else is a waste of your talent.
manwithoutwire 6y ago
How does one deal with decreased appetite on cycle? Eq on cycle made me a professional eater but it wasn't worth the price.
Also we know muscle memory is a thing so essentially a person who has used in the past and stopped taking lifting seriously for a period of time can get a percentage of those gains back naturally moreso than a straight natty could. This has to do with neuromuscular adaptations and stretched muscle fibres ( I forget the exact term). I Iook great right now, and my stats are approaching what they were after a successful cycle and pct because you do not keep 100% of those gains. I attribute these gains not only to noob gains but to muscle memory. Why do you think Layne Norton and all those "natural bodybuilders" look so good and claim natty though they're a bit older now? They used before they started competing at a young age and a solid foundation of training years after that naturally. Thank muscle memory for that.
4 years clean of steroids and 8 weeks into consistent training and I've got my 1 rep max bench from 200 to 300 lbs , 1 rep max deadlift from 225 to 385 ( also spent 4 of these weeks relearning how to deadlift properly without hyperextension) , and 1 RM 225 squat to 315 squat. Barbell military press 1 RM from 95 lbs to 200 lbs. This was with 8 weeks of nSuns 5/3/1 + 3- 6 accessory lifts as made popular on Reddit and I plan to do it for another 8 weeks before switching to another routine. But...but you made noob gains you might say! No, I gained what would take your average person naturally at least 16 weeks in 8 weeks because I've been at these numbers before, multiple times, and it gets more efficient each time. I've been training for 10 years. Now if only I didn't stop training seriously during the winter months for 2-3 months at a time.
I know 1000 club isn't that impressive but it's definitely top 10% maybe even 5% but what I'm getting at is, if you have average genetics and you're firing on all cylinders as far as diet, training, rest goes, you should be hitting a 400 lb bench, 600 lb deadlift and 500 squat after about 5 years of consistent training. Yes I said it, if you're under 25 and not in or close to the 1500 lbs club - you should not be using steroids, period.
I see too many young guys blowing up at the gym but their compound lift numbers are pathetic, or they even skip leg day citing they use their legs all day at work. Sad. Waste of money, might as well hand your gear over to the strongmen.
I probably won't use steroids again until my natural gains start taking a nosedive in the 38-40 range. I feel great just lifting naturally without the side effects, careful pinning, and the secrecy and all the lying and admitting I had to do to healthcare professionals. In addition my appetite is way better. I still look good enough that I get accused of taking roids but it feels great knowing I can be honest about it now with no guilt whatsoever. "I'm clean , haven't touched shit in 4 years" is what I say now without any guilt.
Going to get ripped apart for some of what I said with the likes of "but, but my aesthetics.... I need to look good. I wanna lose fat and get shredded" The eliminate easy dopamine thread is that way >>>>>> . Fapping is embarrassing, and so is using gear when you don't have years of training with a strong base. I know young bodybuilders like Regan Grimes are exceptions to the rule, these guys started pinning the first chance they got but those guys live and breathe bodybuilding and are not exactly healthy.
You know what I would tell my 18 year old self? Don't be an impulsive kid that starts juicing the first chance he gets, build a solid foundation of diet and training for at least 5 years, more realistically - 7 years. Reach the 1500 lb club with the big 3 compound lifts and then I could start looking at getting into gear to take performance to the next level. The gym is your iron church so you better take it seriously, the rewards of lifting are nice and all but the process is your priority.
*Those with naturally low test should see a doctor and get on TRT
Jalakee 6y ago
TBH the 1500 club, while not elite, can NOT be reached by many natural lifters. It's just not in many people's genetic cards. Those are some serious lifts. I consider myself having average at best strength genetics, and I was on gear (cycled, conservative doses) for about 2 years before I hit the 1500 club, and that was after 7 years of natural lifting prior to that. 1000 lb club, absolutely almost any man can hit that without gear. But after that it becomes almost logarithmic. 1500 club--very good, 2000 club--elite, 2000+ club--world class, .0001%.
[deleted] 6y ago
I started TRT 2 years after a botched hernia operation damaged my sole testicle (cryptorchidism required one to be removed at 10 years old) and it gave me my life back. Things aren't perfect, the two years had my girlfriend of 4 years leave me and my work performance plummet. But, as of 4 months ago I actually have the energy to get out of bed.
Get your labs checked. I was mid 300s and found a great doctor who helped me get my levels back to the mid 500s (massive family history of heart disease)
Entropy-7 6y ago
Don't post illegal shit, or at least put it in context.
i presume you are American but I am a Canadian living in China.
[deleted] 6y ago
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Entropy-7 6y ago
Depends on the gearand where you are. What, are you living in Angola or something?
steronicpain 6y ago
To people who want to moralize about cheating:
You're cheating because you go to a gym with specialized equipment instead of moving heavy rocks, logs, and animal carcasses found in nature
You're cheating because you drive a car instead of walking
You're cheating because you're listening to that band on Spotify instead of live (without amplification)
You're cheating because you called that person on the phone instead of talking face-to-face
You're cheating because you took vaccines instead of getting incapacitated by polio
You're cheating because you had an epidural instead of giving birth the natural way
You're cheating because you read a book on your own time instead of listening to the village bard
You're cheating because you got gastric bypass instead of just watching what you stuff in your face
You're cheating because you drink instead of having fun not intoxicated
You're cheating because you put on makeup instead of being pretty
You're cheating because you didn't make your own clothes
You're cheating because you wear glasses/contacts
You're cheating because you whiten your teeth
You're cheating because you got braces
You're cheating
And man, doesn't it feel great?
whuttupfoo 6y ago
you listed everything legal. i don't get your point
max_peenor 6y ago
Forcing chained Africans to pick your cotton used to be legal. So your point?
steronicpain 6y ago
I have talked to many, many people who consider steroids cheating because you're not sticking to the body's natural limits. Then those people turn around and augment their body's natural limits in countless other categories.
And in places like the UK, steroid possession is legal, but distribution isn't. Lots of people go on trips to places like Egypt and stock up for themselves. Completely legal. Possession is legal in Canada as well.
[deleted] 6y ago
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TrenGod37 6y ago
I mean it literally is highlighted. To wait as long as possible to go this routine...
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monsieurhire2 6y ago
Seems like a lot of effort for a questionable rewards:
Jampak_5000 6y ago
Unless you've experienced doing a cycle you'll never really understand. I did 80% of the recommended beginner cycle. only 400mg test per week for 12 weeks. The mental gainz outweighed the physical. I repeat the emotional reaction was stronger than the physical. My baseline happiness is higher on test, more energy to do things, more confident, the list goes on and on. I agree it is a lot of effort; sticking a needle in your ass twice a week every week is not an easy thing to do.
However, that amount of effort and the potential harmful effects, for me are outweighed MASSIVELY by the effects it gives me. I never thought I'd use steroids, I always considered it cheating and dangerous. Eventually I got to 33 years old, not really getting any younger, wondered what it would be like. Did my research and blood work. And honestly I was hooked after about 3-4weeks. It feels that good. Not saying its not without risks. The biggest being infertility if you don't come off. But for the older man who has children already and has taken the red pill, honestly I can't think of a good reason not to be on something, your quality of life is so much higher. For reference I've been a reader here 5+ years.
monsieurhire2 6y ago
Okay, now you are making more sense. If you are a younger guy, it's probably not worth the risks; if you are an older guy and it allows you to safely maintain or improve your quality of life with minimal downside, why not? These are two different things. I was thinking more in terms of guys who are trying to maximize their gainz for the glory of it. Personally, the main reason I lift is psychological and energy related, and physique is secondary.
Zech4riah 6y ago
Good comment, this is exactly what I had in mind but I rather not comment here anymore against "TRP-hivemind" in fear of getting banned.
TRP seems to be going in wrong direction these days. Promoting steroid use to unsure young guys is just fucking stupid. No matter how they try to disguise this as "they gonna use it anyway so better give instructions" or "they are adults who can decide themselves" - It's still stupid and irresponsible. There is separate forums and subs for this kind of info.
Once again, stupid to use steroids to get quick results. You can get awesome body with 3-4 years hard training and get big enough naturally (but not steroid big which makes girls avoid you).
monsieurhire2 6y ago
I agree, although a commenter did make a good argument for older guys with less to lose using them judiciously to maintain or improve quality of life.
JuliusTestvola 6y ago
Nobody gets turned off by muscles, not even straight guys..
monsieurhire2 6y ago
It's not the muscles per se, it's the proportionality of the musculature. The guys that look the best, IMO, are the guys whose musculature looks strong and functional, without too much bulk. These guys would be adapted for jogging, running, walking, climbing, fighting, moving heavy objects, wrestling, doing light to heavy industrial work, on a relatively minimal food budget. Contrast this with some giant muscle-bound ogre who has to eat his weight in protein and take thousands of dollars of supplements a week to reach his "goals."
laviksa 6y ago
I agree, a natural muscular look is IMO more impressive than an overdone anabolic steroid look.
Good examples are the Ambiorix statue: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambiorix#/media/File:Ambiorix.jpg and the Farnese Heracles statue: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farnese\_Hercules#/media/File:Herakles\_Farnese\_MAN\_Napoli\_Inv6001\_n01.jpg .
That kind musculature is an achievable goal for a natty, it's hard work though. I can't help it, but every time I see a roided guy walking around I feel like he 'cheated' somehow and my respect for him is decreased some notches.
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[deleted] 6y ago
It’s not really much effort, I take test, currently use a long acting ester and inject it once a week. I take hcg twice a week and it’s really low maintenance. If one is inclined to go nuts they probably will look weird, if their genes suck they may look odd but if you have decent genes and take care to grow the right muscles one winds up just looking physically better than everyone else. I always had trouble putting on muscle beyond mid 150s now mid 160s it’s great. Feel good as well. However I checked my levels borderline low before I hopped on so that prob had something to do with it.
thetotalpackage7 6y ago
what level would you consider borderline low? the "normal" range at labquest is like 250 to 800. that 250 number doesn't seem normal to me.
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AssumeFormlessness 6y ago
I agree. Before you make a commitment like this, you really have to reflect over it. There are lots of young guys reading this, and i think it's important for them to really understand it won't solve their problems in the first place, that is their self-confidence and self-esteem. It may give you a boost in the short term, when you see the results, but you'll just go back to the place you started, but addicted to the drugs, in the sense that if you'll stop them, you'll lose a lot of your gains, and therefore get even lower confidence than when you started. Even if you're big you'll still get cucked if you don't deal with your confidence and esteem from it's roots. Many people start going down that road and don't reflect on it, because they deep down feel they must do it to be desired and valuable. They start taking drugs from a place of insecurity, which is always a bad idea, whether it's prescription, weed, alcohol or steroids, it doesn't end well. I encourage a healthy lifestyle of lifting regularly, eating and sleeping healthy, but when you start injecting synthetic chemicals you don't have to be an Einstein to understand it long term won't benefit your life. So instead, work on your self-esteem, abundance mentality, outcome independece, amused mastery etc. and start living in the present and understand really hot women can like you without drugs. Also, remember the alpha of the tribe is rarely the biggest, the beta male that is the second hand of the alpha is the biggest. The alpha is the most intelligent, charismatic and most importantly the one with the vision...
monsieurhire2 6y ago
I think it's the kind of thing one should only do if one is getting compensated for the fruits, and even then. I have Arnold's bodybuilding encyclopedia, and every guy in there looks like a cartoonish freak to me. Arnold is the only one who looks semi-normal. You know who had an admirable body? Bruce Lee. It was a byproduct of him optimizing himself to kick other people's asses.
thegreattot 6y ago
Bruce Lee? Way to tiny . Like I'm not saying the dude wasn't an insane athlete but the vast majority of the ufc would smoke him .
monsieurhire2 6y ago
In his own weight class? Come on. In any case, this is an angels dancing on heads of pins discussion, or possibly trolling.
Also, of all the UFC people, how many wrote their own books and explored the philosophy and metaphysics of what they were doing, and left behind a legacy?
thegreattot 6y ago
Plenty if them have written books and everyone is a philosopher in one way or another . Bruce Lee was a performer although I admit he could smoke your average joe. The point I think I was making really is that generally when your trying to attract women you don't wanna look like Arnold or Bruce, you wanna have a build like fucking Chris Evans big but still athletic .
monsieurhire2 6y ago
Some lawyer wrote an answer on Quora excorciating and belittling Lee's accomplishments. Now, he died before I was born, so it's hard to know the facts of his life for sure, but his physique is pretty ridiculous and he left behind a fair amount of records detailing his training regimen. He supposedly had to slow down his punching so it could be filmed without blurring, and you can see from how he moves that he knows what he is doing. However, he's not going to fight the way he really fights on film, because that is more about cinematic effect. Supposedly, he got into fights for fun when he lived in Hong Kong.
When he is interviewed he has an articulateness combined with an intensity and honesty that you don't typically see at present. So for this guy to imply he's some sort of fraud is ridiculous. He got into films in part to deliver a certain message to the masses, and that message inspired millions of men to train and become men. And he did this during a period of racism towards Asians in the United States, and when Asian martial arts was a fringe pursuit. So, he was fighting in a completely different arena. Also, in his films, he's trying to convey a certain philosophy about fighting.
Also, there is no "best," because it is often situational, and someone can always become temporarily better than you as they peak and you decline.
With regard to physique, it's all in the eye of the beholder. I would like a body that can do things, and look good as a byproduct, because anything other than that starts to feel effeminate, like I'm spending all this time sculpted my body for THEIR uses, and not my own. The problem is one of time, where all the specialized equipment and training is spread around; sure, gyms are plentiful, but the ideal gym would have a good climbing wall with plenty of auto-belay, great martial arts classes, a decent sized pool, etc. etc.
thegreattot 6y ago
I'm sure he was a phenomenal athlete, I'm not trying to belittle one of the most influential martial artist of all time or any of his achievements. I'm just not going to idolize him for something he wasn't and a world class fighter wasn't one of those things he was very careful not to fight in his career because of the harm a public loss would do to his image. in real life you arnt going to fight in a weight class and most street fights end up on the ground. so as for looks or self defense I would always recommend putting on size while building explosive power rather than cutting up like Bruce Lee who is at like 5 % body fat or something insane.
monsieurhire2 6y ago
Another thing to consider, is that the guy was no fool. A lot of the "professional fights" are controlled by organized crime groups, because there is a secondary market of gambling going on. Knowing this, why would he want to participate? What was there for him to prove? Nobody stays the best. He was aiming to basically cast a spell on a male audience to get them into martial arts by creating a mythic image of himself as an epic martial artist. His legacy will last much longer because of him immortalizing himself in film than a guy who may have been able to beat him but wasn't capable of the same sort of spiritual combat.
thegreattot 6y ago
I'm saying he was NEVER the best . (Or even capable of competing in a professional circuit) Not even close . His shit looked good and he was fit . Bruce Lee was not interested in being a great fighter he was interested in being a famous and wealthy actor . He was an actor with some pretty moves not a competitor. He does have a Fantastic legacy. His legacy will end shortly after mine when the sun consumes the earth . I don't care to focus on the continuation of my name if that made Bruce happy whatever and I admire what he acomplished but that doesn't change the fact that he still would have difficulty fighting a 250 lb novice fighter . Size matters lift heavy if you don't wanna get beat up in bars .
IndependentAccount 6y ago
Appreciate the post. Getting layman-friendly information out benefits everyone.
+1 on avoiding orals. My first cycle was with Anavar, thinking it was safer. After three weeks, the side-effects made life intolerable. Gains were completely gone after PCT. If you're gonna do it, do it right. The only right way is to pin.
If you don't know how to source, get your T checked at a clinic. You'll probably be sitting at around 300-600 ng/dL free if you're anything like an average American (240-950 is the "normal" range). With a little bit of research into cortisol, you can bring that down to 200-300 and get yourself on TRT.
SARMs are the next best thing. Ostarine is comparable to a mild cycle, without any real sides. It's not gear, but you still need to do PCT, otherwise you gain a lot of fat. Great for coordination sports like basketball; dunking was never easier. Great for recomp, gains are decent. YMMV for A.Is. I started with a tiny amount of anastrozole, but my knees couldn't take the low-e so I went without.
DNP is hell. You're going to be leaving a pool of curry on every piece of cloth you touch. Cuts cutting time down though. I've found protein fasting easier and with acceptable losses in mass though.
You're gonna be gaining almost no matter what you do on gear. Eating as much and training as hard you as you can is important. Off-cylce I lift 1 hour, six times a week on a 3-day hypertrophy split. On-cycle, I'm able to go 1.5 hours, twice a day, everyday on a full-body routine. Had I more time and better conditioned joints, it would have been longer.
You still need to track what you eat. If you don't carb-load and eat at a massive surplus, you're wasting your time, money, and health. I've had good results with unreal amounts of protein (400-500g). I don't have the studies on hand, but there's evidence that protein's anabolic and thermogenic in humans. Farts become insane, too.
As always, if you're unsure whether you should roid or not (should I cut or bulk, guys?): you should lift. Lift for 5 years, eat right, stick to good routines, and reach your natty potential first. Then ask yourself if you think you're tiny. If you think you are, don't roid. Body dysmorphia sneaks up on you and it'll never be enough.
315skwot 6y ago
could you please remove this? your comment on orals is true and good but there's no good reason to use SARMs so don't recommend it. DNP? this could literally kill someone so don't even mention it if you don't mention it will kill you if you are uninformed.
IndependentAccount 6y ago
DNP will kill you if you have underlying medical conditions, don't take precautionary measures, and dose like a retard.
The same is true with deca and meth. If you don't DYOR, you're gonna fuck yourself up. The people who take drugs without sufficient research, aren't going to be stopped by a disclaimer.
DNP and meth both have useful effects if you understand their narrow use-cases and how to make sure you don't kill yourself or your health.
On SARMs, I'd be interested to see what your viewpoint is. The only issues about them, compared to tried-and-true pinning is that they're research chems with no long-term studies. The long-term effects and unknown and could be terrible.
315skwot 6y ago
DNP will kill you a lot easier than anything else mentioned here, hence the concern. lol deca i would assume can be overdosed without major sides, why mention meth along with it. But fair, i agree with you. I assume the guys who don't do enough research are just scanning so one less post about DNP the better.
Lol SARMS, you've mentioned it yourself. It's exactly that. why would you be okay trying something you don't have any proof will benefit you? Especially if you are trying things that are illegal anyway( i'm very pro steroids and i hate it when my friends get on pro-hormones just because they are legal and they assume they are safer)
IndependentAccount 6y ago
I evaluated the risks and decided they were acceptable. If my balls mutate into tennis balls and I develop ass cancer 5 years down the road, that's an acceptable outcome and I'll deal with it then. But current anecdotes live up to my experience with it, and that's all that I care about.
315skwot 6y ago
As long as you understand the risks. May i ask why? normally it's the rationalization that 'legal = okay'
IndependentAccount 6y ago
Efficiency's sake. B&C'ing is difficult when traveling; SARMs were a foray into a more convenient cruise.
Cycling with PCT is out of the question. Weeks of time lost is unacceptable.
raggot_the_legendary 6y ago
Why is this an announcement?
TheRedPike Senior Endorsed 6y ago
We knew it would piss you off.
TrenCobra 6y ago
Test @ 250 p/w. Aromasin as required. Finasteride @ 1mg per day. HcG every couple of months to keep the balls alive. Add EQ or Deca for a blast. Manage your BP.
No orals. No tren. Nothing potent.
Almost zero side effects. Manage your saturated fats and you can effectively mitigate all sides.
TrenGod37 6y ago
Hcg every couple of months? Ahhh... no.
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[deleted] 6y ago
How much money should one aim to have saved or free before embarking on this?
315skwot 6y ago
You have to be able to afford PCT first. Get in the mindset of thinking like that. doesn't matter if you can afford everything else.
steronicpain 6y ago
At the very least $500. If you do bloodwork four times, that's about $280. The test for a 15 week cycle should be around $100-150. Then you need your AI and PCT.
Edit: You would do well to partition at least $700 for a cycle. You can do it for less if you homebrew. If you have extra money after the cycle then invest it in like a Roth IRA or something.
Hideouslyric 6y ago
I strongly recommend that people forgo steroids until their early 40's or if their base line test is sub 500.
A much, much better option is SARMs and HGH, you will still build an exceptional body with those and suffer far less sides.
Also, if you are under 25...do not use any androgenous compounds period, you are still growing and developing and they can screw you up in a variety of ways.
TrenGod37 6y ago
Hgh is pointless without me being run with any anabolic or ran at a ridiculously high dosage.
Club_dean69 6y ago
I never really understood what the problem with gear was. It should be legal in every country and prescriptions should be given out to people who want to run them.
hiddenpleasures123 6y ago
Interested in running a cycle. My only thing is I've read something about the development of muscles is at a greater rate than tendons and ligaments. So you're at higher risks of tears. Is this true or just some broscience nonsense?
Whisper 6y ago
This is true, but not as great a risk as you might think, if you start out properly.
There are novice gains with steroids just as there are novice gains when you first start lifting. So your first cycle doesn't need to be (and shouldn't be) anything crazy. 50mg testosterone cypionate IM 2xweek will feel like mainlining jet fuel.
TrenGod37 6y ago
Yes that is very true. The key is to gradually go up In weight. Your body may allow you to do more but don’t over do it. Also stretch and warm up very good
hiddenpleasures123 6y ago
Thanks for the reply and education. Is it a leave a rep or two in the tank kind of thing? Or cap it to 5 pounds added per week?
steronicpain 6y ago
That's why bb'ers are very often doing high reps. Banging out a few 12-20 rep sets on gear is a lot better for your joints than doing 4-6 rep sets.
hiddenpleasures123 6y ago
I think even natty doing 4-6 rep sets when you're reaching decent numbers takes a toll on your body. I guess my question to this post is obviously the lifting side of it. Those that do consider doing it, obviously you're pushing your body past natural limits... What's a good strategy for lifting?
steronicpain 6y ago
Like I said, up the volume. Testosterone decreases your collagen synthesis by more than 50%, which isn't good for your joints. Combine that with the fact that your strength is going to be going up like mad, and your poor tendons just can't keep up. Lots of guys have stories where they were going up 5-10 pounds on the major lifts every week, yet they knew they could have done more but didn't want to risk injury.
One of the magical things about steroids is the decreased recovery time. You can train hard every day and recover from it, so obviously you should do that. If you're going to juice, then get the most out of it you can. That's why there's a comment somewhere else in this thread saying that being on steroids takes more work than being natty; simply because they're trying to maximize gains and can recover faster.
But yeah, if you're training for hypertrophy, don't go below 12 reps when you're on gear. That's just this guy's opinion. Do a lot more sets. Work out 6 days a week (everybody needs at least one day off).
If you're doing ~12 sets of bench per month (3 sets/week), it stands to reason that you'll get more gains if you increase that to 24 sets (6 sets/week). On gear, you can make increases in volume like that.
tl;dr Volume! More days per week, more sets per day, more reps per set.
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Zombie_GiveMeBrain 6y ago
Always wanted to cruise test but have no idea where to find it aside from deep web and TRT clinic
[deleted] 6y ago
I'd rather not wager my testicles to gain muscle; very counter-productive as far as sexual strategy is concerned.
TrenGod37 6y ago
You must not have read the post. There are ways to prevent this
[deleted] 6y ago
I did; the risks are too high for the rewards.
max_peenor 6y ago
Yes? Can you share with us what you know? Tren says you can prevent this. It appears you have evidence to the contrary. Most of us would like to hear what that is.
[deleted] 6y ago
Steroids isn't redpill; it's a magic pill....next, we'll be seeing announcements for leg lengthening surgery and penis enlargement surgery.....cuz they work, but of course, there are risks.
Zech4riah 6y ago
Great comment, too bad it's buried between the other comments.
max_peenor 6y ago
We already know your conclusion. I'm asking what your data is.
[deleted] 6y ago
Ah, I haven't experimented with any of that stuff.
Whisper 6y ago
So, in other words, you have no idea what you are talking about, but you just thought you'd share your vague sense of uncertainty and trepidation with the world.
TRP is not a democracy. Your ignorance is not of equal value with someone else's domain-specific knowledge, or personal experience.
[deleted] 6y ago
So you'd advocate steroid-usage just to get, what bigger muscles faster? Wasn't the main thing supposed to be to become better in all areas of life? Is there no other way to get ahead without using steroids?
Whisper 6y ago
Well, since I'm one of about ten dudes who put this group together in the first place, I think I know what it's "supposed to be about".
And if you're not willing to at least consider steroid use, then you haven't quite understood what that is. I'll try to help you with that.
The idea of a "red pill" is a metaphor from a film I didn't particularly like. It refers to a choice between what is there, and what others desire you to see.
To "take the red pill", then, is to reject what you have been told in favour of what you can see. To reject scienceism in favour of the scientific method. To reject accepting the opinions of others in favour of forming your own. To reject a well worn path in favour of a straight line towards your destination. To reject being educated in what to think, in favour of of studying how to think.
You know nothing of anabolic steroids besides the fact that others don't want you to take them, most notably a bunch of septuagenarian lawyers who managed to win a popularity contest in front of a bored and indifferent audience.
This is the blue pill. You have swallowed the reality that others have have invented for you to live in.
What is the red pill, then? Is it for you to take them?
No, not quite, although it might be. It is for you to gather knowledge for yourself, rather than listen to any one voice. It is for you to learn, and then judge, not only for yourself, but according to your goals.
Had you done this, you would have been able to back up your opinion about them with specific data, and with reasoning about how they work, and how that might affect people, and what the pros and cons were. But you didn't study. You didn't pursue and gather information.
You simply formed an opinion based on whatever vague rumors you heard, not understanding that information that seeks you is far less reliable than information that you seek.
Consequently, your opinion carries all the weight of a puff of warm hydrogen.
If you want your opinion to be taken seriously when you speak it, take it seriously yourself in the act of forming it.
max_peenor 6y ago
Where did either he or I say that?
We keep asking for your case. We just get this fuzzy bullshit. You said TrenGod was wrong. Cool. Tell us WHY using not only your opinion but a formed argument. If you can't tell us why, then stop saying he's wrong.
You realize doctors are wrong too? All the time. They do this thing where they constantly review their work, discuss it, make new arguments and then test it. It's a funny thing to watch. I heard it was called something like "science" or whatever. It's messy as fuck but overall things seem to slowly get better.
[deleted] 6y ago
Really noob question... but how do you actually get it? Do you go to the doctors?
Also, has there been any negative side effects? I'm not ripping this thread, I'm genuinely curious and have no experience what so ever with this.
[deleted] 6y ago
You buy it off the internet from an underground lab, you could hit up your dr but they likely won’t give you enough to really grow. Negatives are largely avoidable with prudent execution
steronicpain 6y ago
There are websites that talk about steroid sourcing. The steroidsourcetalk subreddit got shut down, unfortunately, but they migrated offsite. Not too hard to find through some googling.
[deleted] 6y ago
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Youngyoda89 6y ago
What kind of little present do you have to give him pops?
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[deleted] 6y ago
I guess the follow up is, how do you use steroids while minimizing negative side effects, is cruising better than stopping cold turkey, or is it variable on the person and the person need to experiment to know.
[deleted] 6y ago
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Captain_Save_A_Hoe_ 6y ago
Taking steroids can actually increase your fertility.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/and.12126
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Zech4riah 6y ago
Well, you have a clear disclaimers in the beginning which is good.
Imo there shouldn't be "beginners guide" for steroid use. Only "beginner's guidance for further self-education". Semantics - I know but still.
Getting your blood results and making decisions based on them would be one way to go. You don't necessarily even need full test cycles to get nice improvements. For example:
If your estradiol is naturally high like over 45pg/ml you could take small dose adex to get it down to around ~20-30. This will lower your estradiol and prolactin and increase testosterone which combined will get you better results at gym and possibly increase libido and energy levels.
And before you take anything, you should actually understand the mechanisms behind all and how HPT axis works (and preferably understand how andrenals and thyroid affect whole equation). But that's just my opinion.
quazimodo_007 6y ago
If you can get legit legal pharmaceutical grade PED's they are much better than dodgy dealers PED's. Dealer cut shit like crazy. You just cant trust drug dealers.
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quazimodo_007 6y ago
steroid dealers are drug dealers
trentreznor95 6y ago
Noob question.. but can taking testosterone ultimatley lower the amount your body produces later on? What are those horror stories about guys who can no longer get an erection all about..
keklord60 6y ago
Taking test will lower and potentially shut down your test production forever (sub 100ng/dl) without proper PCT, even with your body might not react well and you will have to TRT for life which isn’t so bad anyway.
Horror stories regarding erection problems shouldn’t be let you be deterred from the idea. These problems often come from not managing your estradiol properly. Whatever happens there are drugs that you can put into your body to safely fix your problems and drugs you can put into your body to fix erection quality but unsafely.
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TrenGod37 6y ago
Everyone has their opinion of it. But some guys are still going to use it. So regardless it’s good to be informed
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TrenGod37 6y ago
Or they just want people informed? There’s nothing wrong with being educated on a topic, that doesn’t encourage anything
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Rian_Stone 6y ago
Ever learn of the side effects of alcohol, stress, THC and other drugs? Ever ask yourself what the difference is between them and this?
Best answer I've come up with, women don't use this one, and one of the side effects may be your sperm.
Proto_Sigma 6y ago
Those things are also to be avoided whenever posssible. Stress is unavoidable in many circumstances but ought to be managed and limited to avoid the serious heath consequences that can come from excesses.
Alcohol and THC should not be taken at all. No one is forcing you to do it and the financial and long term costs are high.
Of course, the sexual strategy of publicly doing stupid shit to show how tough you are can be effective in the short term, but in the long term it’s not worth it.
max_peenor 6y ago
Ever? You understand it's an analog, right?
Proto_Sigma 6y ago
Morphine is an analog to endorphins. Doesn’t mean I endorse its use in anything other than medical circumstances due to its potential side effects.
Look, I’m not saying marijuana or other similar drugs lack medical utility in any circumstance, nor am I saying you shouldn’t be free to use them.
What I’m saying is that I think it’s a waste of time and money to do so for recreation, and I will always advise against it. If you do you will face negative consequences, and I personally will have less respect for you. I don’t care how many stoners in this thread I piss of by delivering that red pill.
Rian_Stone 6y ago
Everyone has their vices. 'but it will kill you!' is a weak argument, and of no use to a man
Proto_Sigma 6y ago
'But it will kill you!' is the strongest argument to not do something I can think of. Difference of perspective, I suppose, but TRP is about purging vices, not enabling them. Just doing something harmful because 'it's who you are' is textbook blue pill.
Rian_Stone 6y ago
Everything kills you, it's all about risk acceptance
[deleted] 6y ago
As much as I hate to entertain the thoughts of steroids, can't disagree with that.
AlmightyPerun 6y ago
Casual sex can be quite harmful. Driving a car can be harmful, even deadly. Everything is harmful, to one degree or another. Everything can kill you. You can't just sit and do nothing.
However, if you're disciplined and responsible, the harmful side-effects can largely be avoided. Casual sex, driving, alcohol, and even steroids. Done responsibly, you can reap the benefits without any harm.
Proto_Sigma 6y ago
Sometimes risk is necessary, and you should always take necessary precautions when risks is warranted. But the risks for things like alcohol and steroids far outweigh the benefits.
You have to drive to be employable in many parts of the country, as most things aren't within biking or walking distance, and taking a taxi or Uber just delegates responsibility to someone you don't know and can't control.
Likewise, sex is a primal need. You can go ascetic if thats your choice but most men desperately want to fuck and cannot turn it off.
It's a need vs want discussion, almost. I need to drive to get around, and I'll drive as safely as I can, avoid dangerous times and invest in safety features in the event that some dumb fuck teen rear ends me. Likewise, I'll wear a condom with casual partners, because I don't need to be rear ending some dumb fuck teen only to find out that they got gonorrhea from a hanging Chad.
Drugs, steroids, are just cheap dopamine or short cuts. They're expensive, they will even in the safest circumstances have negative effects on your health, and for this heavy cost you get a high or make gains faster than you would've otherwise ( possibly neutering yourself in the process).
I'm all for avoiding costs and gaining benefits, but in the case of 'vices' the costs can be immense and the benefits are minimal. I'm not saying that a smart, responsible and well informed person can't avoid the worst of things, but when you kick back a beer, or inject yourself with steroids or whatever the hell else you're into, you haven't actually gained anything, you've just tricked your rewards system into thinking you've accomplished something and giving you a rush you don't deserve.
I'm not saying I'm a saint, but I think we should criticize and limit our vices, not forgive and accept them. Get your shit together.
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a_passager 6y ago
The Icarus documentary on netflix is a useful way to visualize how you should experiment with enhancers: scientifically. Like in the show, a support system that includes medical professionals is something to be considered.
Its probably worth watching just as a visual aid to understand what happens to an athlete before and after they begin a program.
scissor_me_timbers00 6y ago
Couple questions. Why do gains from orals go away easier than gains from injectables?
Also I’m currently on my first cycle of a prohormone, 1-andro or 1-dhea derivative. Any advice regarding these? So far it’s been good. Gains coming easier, totes legal and no harsh feeling for my liver. Gonna try 19-nor-andro next, which converts to nandrolone. Any reason to scrap these for real jooce?
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[deleted] 6y ago
Has anyone tried SARMs?
315skwot 6y ago
if you are considering, please don't. Steroids are much safer as there are tons of research. Sarms are not for the same.
BlackCraneStoic 6y ago
SARMs are untested roids that have a russian roulette cocktail in every bottle you take. The concetrations of chemicals vary from bottle to bottle and they have yet to be regulated. One bottle could produce great affects the next could have trace amounts of coke from a Chinese lab. To each his own.
TrenGod37 6y ago
That’s one thing I haven’t tried but heard a lot of positive stuff about. I’d be curious to learn more on the topic
The__Tren__Train 6y ago
SARMS are shit.. they shut down your HTPA in much the same way that AAS does, but produce miniscule results by comparison
Metalgear222 6y ago
Had a buddy try these and give me reports often. He said exactly this, bloodwork was fucked and only minimal results and strength.
LiveAFTSOV 6y ago
Simple and informative post. Saved.
nickm205 6y ago
I don't care how much you think you know, research, or read, theres still so much to learn in this universe. Even over time, you learn, learn some more, and make discoveries about your own physiology.
IMO, at 37 with a lot of experience, if I could do it all over again, I would start by working with a renowned coach, like a prep coach who works with non-competitors. They can spot estro-magnets, understand metab(olism), the synergies between compounds, how to maximize diets, macros, training programs, etc.
If you want to go all in, do so with as much guidance as you can afford. Some of the best minds out there are still pretty reasonable. I've worked with a very highly respected and knowledgeable guy and he was under $200 a month and I learned more from working with him twice for a total of 2 years, than I ever could on my own.
This is a missing piece of advice that I rarely see handed out. Find a mentor, its not as simple as running 500mg of Test if you want really maximize your physique.
[deleted] 6y ago
John Meadows has a private forum for juice discussion. You have to pay a fee to get access, but I think you could learn a lot from that forum. Considering Meadows is a pro who is not only open with his use, but he has also been using for decades so he is very experienced.
ThaiEscapePlan 6y ago
Guys, there is plenty of good info out there on steroids, including TRT. (I'm on TRT from my doc and feel much better than I did prior). As he said, I want you to be optimized. Why wouldn't you want to be the best you can be? There are many health benefits from having high T levels and the prostate cancer risk has been debunked. As far as the dangerous side effects of steroids, for the most part that's government/media hyperbole and, as someone mentioned, part of the war on men. Are steroids worse for your liver than Tylenol? Or booze? If all Western men were walking around jacked and high T, would there be trouble? You bet your ass. I know myself my political views went from well, Obama is okay to fuck Hillary, I'd vote for anybody other than that corrupt bitch. From left to right, bluepill to red before I even knew about this place. Testosterone, muscle and no patience for society's politically correct bullshit represent the real red pill and that is why testosterone is listed as a class three narcotic rather than the natural hormone that it truly is. The powers that be are deathly after of manly men and they should be. That's why they are trying to keep us weak with soy, food additives, BPA, netflix, Hollywood movies and politicians who put up a good fight but all play for the same team. Legalized pot is the next step in our domestication. Muscle up brothers.
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nickm205 6y ago
Not really sure sure what you're referring to. I guess I wasn't clear.
I'm not talking about a personal trainer, or a gym-bro, to spot me. I'm talking about the high level minds out there that are basically scientists and gurus on how to most effectively utilize these compounds, nutrition and training programs. Guys like Matt Porter, John Meadows, Phil Viz, Nick Trigili, Jason Theobald, Fahkri, Dave Palumbo. Mad scientists.
It does not sound like you have any sense of truly elite physiques that are coached 99% of the time, competitive bodybuilding and the like. The level of knowledge some of these guys have. I ran various protocols for years solo, and I was a vacuum of information all over the web, forums, videos, you name it. My own physique didn't 'launch' to the next level, until I worked with someone to help me optimize my efforts.
My point is, if you're going to dive into the deep end of the pool with chemical physique enhancement, then have someone at your side in the beginning until you've truly mastered the basics.
nebder 6y ago
How would you go about finding this mentor? Talk to the old guy with the hug traps and shoulders in gym is my thinking.
nickm205 6y ago
Just start following bodybuilding youtube channels, bodybuilding news, prep coaches that work with non-competitive athletes. If you really want a referral to a coach then inbox me.
mindplaybyneo 6y ago
You missed the most important part. First step.. lift weights. Until you made a solid progress through strict diet and lifting then never start doing steroids.
Trenned_out 6y ago
Lol at coming on and off. Death is my PCT. cruising is also less of hormonal roller coaster than yo-yoing through pct.
That being said if you only plan on dabbling I think one or 2 cycles and coming off is worth while.
I've been on 4 years straight and will never be completely off exogenous hormones. I have completely perfect bloodwork as well. and my quality of life is greatly improved
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leviathan51 6y ago
Welcome back, u/TrenGod37.
rigbed 6y ago
When do you tren
TrenGod37 6y ago
at birth
The__Tren__Train 6y ago
I use tren only when dieting on very low calories... tren ace for the last 4 weeks.
I don't really like it tbh (not joking). I like test and NPP much better.
rigbed 6y ago
I’m just looking for something that gives me a libido hyper boost and helps me put on muscle
anon35201 6y ago
The list of Schedule A through Schedule E narcotics that come with Class D or Class E misdemeanors upon conviction, some carrying prison sentences, in your country or state is very unknowable unless you've thoroughly studied the laws on drugs, the laws of which there are tens of thousands. Schools don't teach this because they believe ignorance of the law is the best way to protect children from performance enhancing or pleasure inducing chemicals sold through both legal and illegal markets.
All discussions of the appropriate use of any experimental and potentially illegal drug (The illegality as defined by the Federal laws and State laws of your home country/state and the criminality of said use) should have these warnings pre-fixed and post-fixed suggesting that following this guide may or may not lead to you getting convicted with a felony, provided anyone were to discover what you were doing and report your name to the police and the investigation confirms.
Super performance enhancing or pleasure-inducing chemicals that simulate brain neurotransmitters normally created from the body and brain operate upon nanotechnology processes in your brain and body that are currently unknowable. By disregarding these warnings, you are breaking the unbreakable seal on the manual of your own body. Experiment with these drugs as you would experiment on pouring crushed glass into your oil reservoir of your car/truck. The instrument of the brain can be destroyed with 21st century narcotics and the medical industry and medical science is furiously trying to develop cures and antidotes for all possible unintended overdoses and consequences.
It's a free country, and it's your life, so if you want to redline it or sacrafice lifespan for exceptional performance in the now, then I guess by all means, but confide in trusted family before taking advice from anonymous people online who use their erudite education to essentially say: "Smok Heroin erryday". Saying that with the eloquence of a professor doesn't make the advice less dangerous and irrisponsible. It's for these posts that the Bible is the #1 best seller on earth now, because men 3500 years ago figured out it's a dangerous world out there, and there are people out there who would like nothing better than that you kill yourself slowly by injecting chemicals that the scientific community has proven beyond all doubt are detrimental to your long term health.
Proceed with caution. Your eyeball window into the universe is made of nano tech, both legal and illegal drugs can and will throw sand into those gears. Do not complain later when your brain starts blowing out like an red lined Lamborghini with a dislocated piston and then is on the brink of puking its guts all over the road, coming to a halt while everyone points and laughs at your misfortune.
Whisper 6y ago
This is useless FUD instead of specific information, dressed up in science-ism.
TrenGod37 6y ago
I put a disclaimer. And all was good until you added your opinion at the bottom. There’s no need to belittle people because they don’t see eye to eye with your morals
[deleted] 6y ago
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TheBattleshipYamato 6y ago
lol "mentally stronger", stop kidding yourself
[deleted] 6y ago
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Halitenina 6y ago
You were better off before the edits, back when it was clear you made an effort to keep your post objective.
[deleted] 6y ago
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Halitenina 6y ago
Thanks. I've re-approved your post.
I'll humor you, but I'm going to insist you use a more respectful tone moving forward. Clear?
If we let the best argument win, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Talk of steroids is always quickly downvoted, which is why I had to pin this thread to the top of the front page.
Yet, regardless of how immoral or unsafe PEDs are... they work. They undeniably give you an edge, by every objective measure, whether your goal is athleticism or aestheticism. We don't need a democracy to know that's the case.
Yet, the risks do exist, kind of like there are risks to having lots of casual sex. A conversation about how to mitigate those risks would be very productive. So now that you pointed out the risks of anabolics, despite the undertones of your writing that make it very clear where you stand, I'm hoping your post will prompt that discussion.
But it isn't anyone's place to decide what any particular man's goals should be.
Using anabolic and androgenic steroids are in line with the goals of many of our readers; our subscribers have the right to a conversation about it, in an unbiased forum.
We will tolerate any objective arguments against steroid use, backed up by tangible evidence. That is why I approved your post, despite its going against the flavor of this thread.
We will not tolerate comments about whether those arguments definitively outweigh the potential benefits.
Rian_Stone 6y ago
Know the easiest tell that someone is being a moralfag? Accusations that any critique is thebluepill.