2y ago SJW / Politics
I was trying to write down what were the good/bad aspects of feminism. I would welcome some feedback on my post - telegra.ph/feminism-07-06
2y ago The Hub
@Mark_Freed 18) False time constraints - Lie and make up some excuse as to why you can’t stay for long so the girls don’t get uneasy about how long this new stranger is going to be taking up their time. When you cold approach a girl, her guard is up and she is thinking about how to get you to leave without upsetting you. Even when you plan a date, tell her in advance you have plans afterward so set a end time for the date too. She needs to have no fear of you escalating too fast. Easy out of the date. In case the date goes really well you can always "cancel those plans".
Notice how this is a white lie, deception when does for the benefit of both parties is morally fine. Finally, the consequences matter, fulfilling casual sex for the both of them? healthy long-term relationship? in some ways the ends do justify the means.
19) Kino or kinaesthetics - most guys who are sexually obsessed act very platonic. They are not comfortable when women touch them, they easily get aroused and show that. Learn to touch women casually in conversation, hug people, get in touch with your softer, lower voice and act sensual. Ironically women feel more comfortable with an out-in-the-open sexual acting man than a presume-he-is-hiding-something platonic acting man.
Minor kino is the very basic, most socially acceptable form of touch. Things like gently brush her arm, a tap on the shoulder, a handshake or a high five are all examples of minor kino.
Medium - Light playful push, frontal hugs, games of thumb war, and holding hands.
Major - stroking the face, hair, touching the lips, hips, long, intimate hugs, and of course, kissing.
20) Misattribution of arousal - Things like horror movies, scary haunted houses, exercise, roller coasters, candlelight dinners, double espresso drinks are all good date options. When the lights turn down low, it may add to a sense of privacy but it also means our pupils dilate to let in more light. When else do our pupils dilate? When we are attracted to someone. Caffeine, fear can make your heart race much like arousal. All this is a form of classical conditioning.
21) Juggler Method - Escalate after her high points, You prompt her (with interesting questions) to make an effort > She makes the effort > You reward her with your intent. Don't make your rewards cheap - You show your new, more flavorful interest in her immediately after she makes her effort towards you. There are a few ways to prompt a woman to make an effort. One of the simplest is called the vacuum. You create the vacuum by asking big questions and keeping silent. your subconscious has a way of sabotaging you. It will want to let her off the hook and turn your question into a close-ended one. Have a look of quiet expectancy on your face. This is the vacuum. It is powerful. Don’t be compelled to fill the vacuum, which you yourself created, with your own words or actions.
Her efforts, words, and creativity are her money. It's a good idea if you can get her to put in effort in the beginning before you put too much of your own effort into the relationship. Get her invested in the relationship.
Both genders don't know what they want, women more so than men because of cultural reasons - wanting to conform, believe they are pure, good, not shallow, etc. Men are given more leeway to be assholes and be themselves - selfish, etc. This is why research based on just self-reports and surveys is not worth a lot.
When men don't do these things, sex can become boring for women. When PUA ideas are applied ethically it can keep a relationship alive. You can find further rational discussion about PUA here.
There are more pseudoscientific ideas I did not cover like Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP), unethical stuff like dread game. Remember one of the strongest predictors (even over promiscuity) of infidelity is emotional distrust and dissatisfaction so it is in our best interest to have a healthy relationship with our partner. Every damaged girl out there made a dumb choice but there was also a guy who hurt her.
Use this knowledge wisely my dear friend.
Read More2y ago The Hub
@Mark_Freed 18) False time constraints - Lie and make up some excuse as to why you can’t stay for long so the girls don’t get uneasy about how long this new stranger is going to be taking up their time. When you cold approach a girl, her guard is up and she is thinking about how to get you to leave without upsetting you. Even when you plan a date, tell her in advance you have plans afterward so set a end time for the date too. She needs to have no fear of you escalating too fast. Easy out of the date. In case the date goes really well you can always "cancel those plans".
Notice how this is a white lie, deception when does for the benefit of both parties is morally fine. Finally, the consequences matter, fulfilling casual sex for the both of them? healthy long-term relationship? in some ways the ends do justify the means.
19) Kino or kinaesthetics - most guys who are sexually obsessed act very platonic. They are not comfortable when women touch them, they easily get aroused and show that. Learn to touch women casually in conversation, hug people, get in touch with your softer, lower voice and act sensual. Ironically women feel more comfortable with an out-in-the-open sexual acting man than a presume-he-is-hiding-something platonic acting man.
Minor kino is the very basic, most socially acceptable form of touch. Things like gently brush her arm, a tap on the shoulder, a handshake or a high five are all examples of minor kino.
Medium - Light playful push, frontal hugs, games of thumb war, and holding hands.
Major - stroking the face, hair, touching the lips, hips, long, intimate hugs, and of course, kissing.
20) Misattribution of arousal - Things like horror movies, scary haunted houses, exercise, roller coasters, candlelight dinners, double espresso drinks are all good date options. When the lights turn down low, it may add to a sense of privacy but it also means our pupils dilate to let in more light. When else do our pupils dilate? When we are attracted to someone. Caffeine, fear can make your heart race much like arousal. All this is a form of classical conditioning.
21) Juggler Method - Escalate after her high points, You prompt her (with interesting questions) to make an effort > She makes the effort > You reward her with your intent. Don't make your rewards cheap - You show your new, more flavorful interest in her immediately after she makes her effort towards you. There are a few ways to prompt a woman to make an effort. One of the simplest is called the vacuum. You create the vacuum by asking big questions and keeping silent. your subconscious has a way of sabotaging you. It will want to let her off the hook and turn your question into a close-ended one. Have a look of quiet expectancy on your face. This is the vacuum. It is powerful. Don’t be compelled to fill the vacuum, which you yourself created, with your own words or actions.
Her efforts, words, and creativity are her money. It's a good idea if you can get her to put in effort in the beginning before you put too much of your own effort into the relationship. Get her invested in the relationship.
Both genders don't know what they want, women more so than men because of cultural reasons - wanting to conform, believe they are pure, good, not shallow, etc. Men are given more leeway to be assholes and be themselves - selfish, etc. This is why research based on just self-reports and surveys is not worth a lot.
When men don't do these things, sex can become boring for women. When PUA ideas are applied ethically it can keep a relationship alive. You can find further rational discussion about PUA here.
There are more pseudoscientific ideas I did not cover like Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP), unethical stuff like dread game. Remember one of the strongest predictors (even over promiscuity) of infidelity is emotional distrust and dissatisfaction so it is in our best interest to have a healthy relationship with our partner. Every damaged girl out there made a dumb choice but there was also a guy who hurt her.
Use this knowledge wisely my dear friend.
Read More2y ago The Hub
@Mark_Freed One sensible argument against this is that these things might work but they are not healthy in a long-term relationship. This might be true, I don't know enough about what LTRs are like but at the very least for casual sex and even the initial stages of dating, to create attraction I see no moral problems with most PUA tricks.
When people ask us how we are, we give canned replies that we don't really mean. We operate based on script many times and after a while, it becomes part of ourselves. The idea of what we are is very fluid and many of these tricks that PUA suggests can become second nature quite quickly.
If it does not work then you don't have to fear it. In fact, no guy can follow a script for very long, no relationship built on lies last. If it was casual sex then they both hooked up, had fun, and never saw each other again. No one is hurt. In case he fails to internalize his mask then cracks in his facade show and the relationship falls apart. There is no good reason why PUA should be shamed.
But we should evaluate each idea on its own merit and judge for ourselves if it feels ethical. The toolbox is large and starts from common sense advice to almost illegal shit.
Ok, I spent a lot of time discussing morality, mainly because PUA has such a bad name. I think it has a lot of potential for good and that side of this community is being neglected. Let us move onto the actual methods PUA suggests we use.
Techniques
Not all ideas work, you need to experiment and practice. The theory is not everything.
- Hygiene is very important. A lot of people take this casually. Take a bath often, use soap make sure you smell good, brush your teeth. Monitor how sweaty you are and use deodorant if you have to. Make sure you spend on a good hairstyle, trim your beard, work out, wear clean clothes, good shoes, etc. You know the basics! Fix your posture, don't hunch down when walking keep your shoulders broad and look up not at the ground. Stare into people's eyes when they talk.
- Old school girls may not say it but they usually love gifts. Buy her flowers, handwritten notes, dress in suits, open doors and prepare chairs. You can stand out from the crowd and leave an impression in her mind. Dress in suits, try formal wear. Some people can really pull that off.
- Peacocking - wear something ridiculous maybe a hat or dress, a hairstyle that gets her attention and serves as a conversation starter. This does not have to be that ostentatious, you can be subtle and carry a toy, wear special glasses, just bright colors.
- Wing women - wingmen are common and help a lot. It shows that you have friends and can be tolerated. A man who has women friends is preselected. At least one woman thinks he's not a psychopath or a creep. On top of this, women are motivated largely by competition with other women, so if they see the wing women as competition, they'll be more likely to be receptive to the guy's advances.
- Opinion opener - Most people approach women and directly express interest. You can try asking a woman her opinion on something rather than give a compliment. This way you can come across more casually and get her talking first before ever even expressing an interest in her. If not asking that, try discussing a situation that affects both of you. Crowded, noisy, hot, room? Costly prices.
- Get her to talk - A lot of guys talk themselves into disqualification, often the girl likes him and wishes that he will not say something stupid that will turn her off. Girls also like to talk about themselves, let her talk, let her ask questions. If you talk too much you come across as arrogant.
- Listen and remember - don't let her repeat, pay attention when she talks, and later bring up what she said. Show her that you paid attention and remember the trivial details she told you. Buy her gifts, do her favors that reflect what you remembered.
- Disagree when you feel like it, ideally soon after you meet her, it is very important that you are authentic. A lot of nice guys try to avoid conflict by agreeing with whatever she says. It is a turn-on when the guy stands up for himself and respectfully disagrees. A simp does not have a backbone and is too agreeable. If you compete, take it seriously and never just let her win.
- Compliment her for things within her control. Guys would love compliments on their appearance, so they often compliment girls for things that they did not earn. She was born with good genes. Girls feel like the guy is having ulterior motives and is not being genuine. Instead praise her good behavior, exercise, cooking, fashion sense, things that she put a real effort into.
- Be light, don't be so serious. A lot of guys take themselves and things too seriously. Be cocky and funny. Be casual, lighthearted, even mischievous. Flirting will happen only in this atmosphere when you talk tongue-in-cheek, teasing her, being ironic and outrageously self-assured. Saying things like "you are too X". Confidence is key, be assertive and sure of yourself. Talk art instead of science, music, poems, even science can be approached as an art. Appearing confident is not about expressing confidence, it’s about confidently expressing everything else. Presence is created when you limit your unintentional (nervous) words or movements. When you do this you render your intentional words and movements more discernible. You will have uncluttered your communication.
- Tell her early - many guys take too long to tell her how they feel. It is best to let her know as early as possible if you feel an initial romantic interest. Avoid the friend zone, having her categorize you as just a friend. “Wow, I just realized, not just are you sexy but you’re fun to talk with.” - let her know clearly that you find her attractive. For all the shit we give women remember even she can't read your mind.
- Create sexual tension - You create sexual tension by being sexual while acknowledging barriers.
“I think you are completely sexy. But of course, I just met you so I can’t tell you that.”
“You’re sexy but I don’t know. It would never work out between a blonde and a guy in a turtleneck.”
One of the worst mistakes a guy can make is to destroy obstacles a woman brings up. These are her safety valves that enable her to flirt. Instead, he should support them and use them to crank up the tension.
Her: “I can’t get with you I don’t know you well enough.”
You: “You’re right. I would like to kiss you slowly all over your body but I really want to get to know you as a person first.”
13) Overcome approach anxiety - there is no shortcut but practice. Go ask strangers for time/directions. Start with males, than older females, then attractive females. Practice asking numbers, get used to rejection. Don't let fear control you. Eventually, you must talk to any girl you find cute, don't just stare at her and dream about possibilities. Make a move.
14) Abundance mentality - believe that you are the prize, know that there are a lot of options out there. Don't believe in scarcity and feel pressured by time and fear of not finding anyone you like who likes you. Don't sell yourself to her, most guys have "I want her to like me" in their heads when they interact. Stop that and think "I want to see if she is someone I like". Be less invested in the outcome and enjoy the process, just ask questions. This mental frame is very important to signal high value.
15) Respect her - Make sure you get her consent carefully, ask her "How far do you want to go tonight" instead of "do you want to have sex". No auxiliary pressure. Let her dictate how far you want to go. Asking consent is hot, it's great and she will trust you and love you more for it.
By now anyone reading this must feel confused because none of these seem remotely unethical. They seem like solid advice. Where is the dodgy stuff?
16) Be the one to end the conversation - high-value men have other interests - careers, education, hobbies. If all the time you reply immediately, keep talking to her for hours and let her be the one to end the conversation you are signaling that you have nothing better to do. Do not make her your number 1 priority, have shit going on, show you have drive, ambition, responsibilities. Believe in a greater cause – you are willing to devote yourself to a greater cause in life, bigger than yourself.
This might be hard for some guys and it can be deceptive, especially if the guy waits for a while on purpose before replying. It is easy to fake this. This is a mistake a lot of nice guys make signaling their desperation by overvaluing her. She knows she does not deserve this kind of love in such early stages and understands you just love an ideal of her you kept in your mind.
17) Negging - this is actually just teasing - "disqualify yourself". Don't show her you are interested directly. Make her curious why you aren't hitting on her. A guy who is trying to impress her will be very careful not to show certain aspects of himself that might turn her off. Try to overtly show that you don't care. Maybe blow your nose? Exclusion - go talk to everyone in a group except your target.
One other aspect of this is a backhanded compliment or otherwise flirtatious remark to another person to undermine their confidence. "What do you have going for you besides your looks?”. This makes her want to seek your approval.
This same action when done naturally is just a bit rude but if we plan it out it becomes manipulative. This is meant to disarm her and flirt with her. But it can be hard for some nice guys to say something they don't feel.
Read More2y ago The Hub
@Mark_Freed One sensible argument against this is that these things might work but they are not healthy in a long-term relationship. This might be true, I don't know enough about what LTRs are like but at the very least for casual sex and even the initial stages of dating, to create attraction I see no moral problems with most PUA tricks.
When people ask us how we are, we give canned replies that we don't really mean. We operate based on script many times and after a while, it becomes part of ourselves. The idea of what we are is very fluid and many of these tricks that PUA suggests can become second nature quite quickly.
If it does not work then you don't have to fear it. In fact, no guy can follow a script for very long, no relationship built on lies last. If it was casual sex then they both hooked up, had fun, and never saw each other again. No one is hurt. In case he fails to internalize his mask then cracks in his facade show and the relationship falls apart. There is no good reason why PUA should be shamed.
But we should evaluate each idea on its own merit and judge for ourselves if it feels ethical. The toolbox is large and starts from common sense advice to almost illegal shit.
Ok, I spent a lot of time discussing morality, mainly because PUA has such a bad name. I think it has a lot of potential for good and that side of this community is being neglected. Let us move onto the actual methods PUA suggests we use.
Techniques
Not all ideas work, you need to experiment and practice. The theory is not everything.
- Hygiene is very important. A lot of people take this casually. Take a bath often, use soap make sure you smell good, brush your teeth. Monitor how sweaty you are and use deodorant if you have to. Make sure you spend on a good hairstyle, trim your beard, work out, wear clean clothes, good shoes, etc. You know the basics! Fix your posture, don't hunch down when walking keep your shoulders broad and look up not at the ground. Stare into people's eyes when they talk.
- Old school girls may not say it but they usually love gifts. Buy her flowers, handwritten notes, dress in suits, open doors and prepare chairs. You can stand out from the crowd and leave an impression in her mind. Dress in suits, try formal wear. Some people can really pull that off.
- Peacocking - wear something ridiculous maybe a hat or dress, a hairstyle that gets her attention and serves as a conversation starter. This does not have to be that ostentatious, you can be subtle and carry a toy, wear special glasses, just bright colors.
- Wing women - wingmen are common and help a lot. It shows that you have friends and can be tolerated. A man who has women friends is preselected. At least one woman thinks he's not a psychopath or a creep. On top of this, women are motivated largely by competition with other women, so if they see the wing women as competition, they'll be more likely to be receptive to the guy's advances.
- Opinion opener - Most people approach women and directly express interest. You can try asking a woman her opinion on something rather than give a compliment. This way you can come across more casually and get her talking first before ever even expressing an interest in her. If not asking that, try discussing a situation that affects both of you. Crowded, noisy, hot, room? Costly prices.
- Get her to talk - A lot of guys talk themselves into disqualification, often the girl likes him and wishes that he will not say something stupid that will turn her off. Girls also like to talk about themselves, let her talk, let her ask questions. If you talk too much you come across as arrogant.
- Listen and remember - don't let her repeat, pay attention when she talks, and later bring up what she said. Show her that you paid attention and remember the trivial details she told you. Buy her gifts, do her favors that reflect what you remembered.
- Disagree when you feel like it, ideally soon after you meet her, it is very important that you are authentic. A lot of nice guys try to avoid conflict by agreeing with whatever she says. It is a turn-on when the guy stands up for himself and respectfully disagrees. A simp does not have a backbone and is too agreeable. If you compete, take it seriously and never just let her win.
- Compliment her for things within her control. Guys would love compliments on their appearance, so they often compliment girls for things that they did not earn. She was born with good genes. Girls feel like the guy is having ulterior motives and is not being genuine. Instead praise her good behavior, exercise, cooking, fashion sense, things that she put a real effort into.
- Be light, don't be so serious. A lot of guys take themselves and things too seriously. Be cocky and funny. Be casual, lighthearted, even mischievous. Flirting will happen only in this atmosphere when you talk tongue-in-cheek, teasing her, being ironic and outrageously self-assured. Saying things like "you are too X". Confidence is key, be assertive and sure of yourself. Talk art instead of science, music, poems, even science can be approached as an art. Appearing confident is not about expressing confidence, it’s about confidently expressing everything else. Presence is created when you limit your unintentional (nervous) words or movements. When you do this you render your intentional words and movements more discernible. You will have uncluttered your communication.
- Tell her early - many guys take too long to tell her how they feel. It is best to let her know as early as possible if you feel an initial romantic interest. Avoid the friend zone, having her categorize you as just a friend. “Wow, I just realized, not just are you sexy but you’re fun to talk with.” - let her know clearly that you find her attractive. For all the shit we give women remember even she can't read your mind.
- Create sexual tension - You create sexual tension by being sexual while acknowledging barriers.
“I think you are completely sexy. But of course, I just met you so I can’t tell you that.”
“You’re sexy but I don’t know. It would never work out between a blonde and a guy in a turtleneck.”
One of the worst mistakes a guy can make is to destroy obstacles a woman brings up. These are her safety valves that enable her to flirt. Instead, he should support them and use them to crank up the tension.
Her: “I can’t get with you I don’t know you well enough.”
You: “You’re right. I would like to kiss you slowly all over your body but I really want to get to know you as a person first.”
13) Overcome approach anxiety - there is no shortcut but practice. Go ask strangers for time/directions. Start with males, than older females, then attractive females. Practice asking numbers, get used to rejection. Don't let fear control you. Eventually, you must talk to any girl you find cute, don't just stare at her and dream about possibilities. Make a move.
14) Abundance mentality - believe that you are the prize, know that there are a lot of options out there. Don't believe in scarcity and feel pressured by time and fear of not finding anyone you like who likes you. Don't sell yourself to her, most guys have "I want her to like me" in their heads when they interact. Stop that and think "I want to see if she is someone I like". Be less invested in the outcome and enjoy the process, just ask questions. This mental frame is very important to signal high value.
15) Respect her - Make sure you get her consent carefully, ask her "How far do you want to go tonight" instead of "do you want to have sex". No auxiliary pressure. Let her dictate how far you want to go. Asking consent is hot, it's great and she will trust you and love you more for it.
By now anyone reading this must feel confused because none of these seem remotely unethical. They seem like solid advice. Where is the dodgy stuff?
16) Be the one to end the conversation - high-value men have other interests - careers, education, hobbies. If all the time you reply immediately, keep talking to her for hours and let her be the one to end the conversation you are signaling that you have nothing better to do. Do not make her your number 1 priority, have shit going on, show you have drive, ambition, responsibilities. Believe in a greater cause – you are willing to devote yourself to a greater cause in life, bigger than yourself.
This might be hard for some guys and it can be deceptive, especially if the guy waits for a while on purpose before replying. It is easy to fake this. This is a mistake a lot of nice guys make signaling their desperation by overvaluing her. She knows she does not deserve this kind of love in such early stages and understands you just love an ideal of her you kept in your mind.
17) Negging - this is actually just teasing - "disqualify yourself". Don't show her you are interested directly. Make her curious why you aren't hitting on her. A guy who is trying to impress her will be very careful not to show certain aspects of himself that might turn her off. Try to overtly show that you don't care. Maybe blow your nose? Exclusion - go talk to everyone in a group except your target.
One other aspect of this is a backhanded compliment or otherwise flirtatious remark to another person to undermine their confidence. "What do you have going for you besides your looks?”. This makes her want to seek your approval.
This same action when done naturally is just a bit rude but if we plan it out it becomes manipulative. This is meant to disarm her and flirt with her. But it can be hard for some nice guys to say something they don't feel.
Read More2y ago The Hub
When it comes to a traditional arranged marriage, it is clear what you are judged by. Your income, your occupation - its scope for growth, stability of income, family assets, ancestry, medical history of the family, your looks, any vices? Most families do very in-depth vetting before approving a marriage.
But now we have dating, which might lead to marriage between two individuals. In the dating world, all the above topics are discussed after the relationship becomes serious. To succeed in dating you need to first land dates, then impress them enough/find them impressive to start a relationship. But who is right for us? do we really know ourselves well? what do we want? what should we want? It turns out emotions control our decisions, not logic.
There are a lot of socially acceptable ways to get better at getting dates. You can improve your hairstyle, groom your beard, work out, wear stylish clothes, improve posture, work hard and land a lucrative career. Girls can work out, wear stylish clothes. Most of these things are real changes you are making to your authentic self.
You might clean your room when they come over, leading them to think you are a tidier person than you actually are. People put in an effort to put "their best foot forward", showing the date who they could be on the best day.
Misrepresentation
Isn't that deception? To a degree, deception is also condoned. Even if you have insecurities, problems, peeves, strong political opinions, people try to avoid such contentious topics when you get to know a person. You don't lie, rather you avoid oversharing, burdening them with that level of intimacy too early. You try to avoid conflict and overall implicitly misrepresent yourself. You might wear luxury clothes and wear watches that are not that popular in your social class but leave an impression that you are wealthier than you actually are.
Morality changes over time, at one point, makeup and plastic surgery would be considered immoral, now increasingly it is accepted. As long as we agree that it is expected then deception can become more moral.
Some girls wear push-up bras, hip pads, foundation to cover up blemishes in their skin and attain an even skin tone, fake eyelashes, eyeliner, lipstick, blush, and the list goes on. Some wear high heels to appear taller, which causes her to rotate her hips when walking, makes her legs look more shapely (especially the calves), and the butt firmer and lifted even though it hurts their legs health. These are all deceptions people indulge in, some frown upon them as it turns them off. Why?
Men rely on certain signals to judge women and when women try to fake it, it makes men uncomfortable. In the same way, women rely on certain signals to judge men, if men fake them that makes the women uncomfortable. Even if women get some surgery done, men still instinctively reject the girl and girls hide it because the genes are still the same only the measure has been changed.
Now, most will agree that this dating game that both genders play is really hard for most men. Women get too much attention and since they are in touch with their emotions they can usually do a good job of being feminine and send the correct signals when in the presence of a man they like. They also don't have much scope for improvement since men judge them on aspects that they cannot control unless they resort to something like plastic surgery.
PUA believes women get to decide whose genes get passed down, they preach the Red Pill ideology of dual mating strategy. That women want genetic material from alphas - physically strong, tall, dominant specimens of the human race, but the resources and parenting proficiency from the betas - kind, caring, loyal, industrious. This could be why human females are one of the few that conceal their ovulation.
PUA or the pick-up artist community is basically trying to help betas become alphas. They are making explicit the implicit signals that women judge men on and reverse engineer which behavior of successful men manages to attract women. A lot of women who first read about PUA believe that these tricks will only work on low-value women who are dumb, and that intelligent, confident women cannot be scripted.
But the truth is, we are all animals and so much more similar than different. Especially when it comes to dating we don't act rationally. Emotions take over and primal circuits that evolved over centuries kick in and decide for us, trigger lust, bias our opinions, etc. The same girl will think a very attractive guy being shy/awkward is cute/funny/adorable, bad jokes become funny and rules that she has for other guys are broken. In an unattractive guy let alone negative traits, even positive traits like confidence get interpreted as arrogance, compliments as creepy.
Why is there a lot of hate towards PUA? I think it is because we still believe that humans have free will and the fact that PUA could work irritates us and causes cognitive dissonance. Romance and love itself seem to only be valuable if it happens by fate, naturally and organically. The ideal is that it should be effortless.
Ethics and Morality
The game which PUA tries to teach us all about mimicking the behaviors of attractive people. But people assign different ethical values to the same actions depending on intentions, the same actions can become immoral if people find out it was preplanned, cold, and calculative. The actions now become "fake".
We have different degrees of murder and a criminal who committed murder in a moment of passion can be treated differently from someone who planned it out carefully. But that is just shades of wrong. In the case of PUA, the same actions that are attractive and desired in people when it manifests naturally become immoral if it was prepared.
The problem here is the deception, there is an assumption that your actions are spontaneous and most people don't plan it out. So you are letting her operate under that false assumption. The other issue is that you are treating her like an object which will give you desired outputs if you trigger the right inputs.
Morality has a lot to do with empathy, would you like it if someone treated you without taking into consideration how you would feel about it. In the case of PUA, the men seem to be focused on just using her for sex. The distaste people feel for it is because it feels like manipulation. It feels like the girls are being cheated and mislead.
But this is all assuming malicious use of this toolbox. Lots of great guys are not sexually attracting girls, they could be great boyfriends but there is no attraction. The girl stays friends with them. If these good guys could learn how to make the girl see him as a sexual creature and attracted to him. He could make her happy.
A lot of men who turn to PUA genuinely want to improve, they understand that their mannerisms, personality, appearance, etc are a turn-off and they are willing to try to change just so that they have a happy relationship where the girl is also feeling fulfilled, they want her not just mentally attracted to him but also physically. All women love to be charmed, romanced, and wooed.
When PUA is done right, more men will know exactly how to court women well. But this power can be misused to make women fall in love with the guy and the guy can have sex, then leave breaking her heart. It is obvious pickup artistry can be used for immoral deeds, it is double-edged much like anything else like knives. But can most men be trusted with this power?
A lot of the arguments against PUA sound like people telling them to "stay in their place and stay a loser", no one else gives these men any tools to improve and it is wrong to tell them they can never be good enough. We practice to improve our music skills, we are formulaic initially and eventually, we can eventually turn into an artist churning out songs organically. Why do people think practicing social interaction cheapens it?
Telling them they don't have to change and someone will come along who will love them for who they are is not just cruel but actually evil. They will trust you, be complacent and die a virgin - not just sexually but even emotionally never having felt a women's heartfelt love and desire.
Read More2y ago TheRedPill
@deeplydisturbed thanks for pointing out specifics, I am quite new this community and wanted to organize my thoughts. I agree with you, I should have said "some women use it with weak men", I think men need to be aware of this and collectively decide it is unhealthy in relationships to let it continue like that.
I think I have good genes, I will be a great father way better than most parents I have seen. My family has decent wealth which I want to pass down. So I have genetics and culture that I want to pass down to my kids, it is the best sort of immortality we can have. Writing textbooks, leaving a mark on history pales in comparison to being able to create a living legacy. I think it is a defeatist view that most guys in this community have towards marriage.
We need to figure out a way to make this work, spread the word about what environment is best for raising kids, stability, good role models, the optimal age to have kids, risk of STIs, and unsatisfying sex when girls sleep around.
Sure I have read the red pill ideas on how to handle it when/if women do use it, I think being assertive and calm about it should work. I used to be a simp and was poised to be a beta bucks but I am trying to change. It is not that easy because I feel bad about being selfish and assertive, I'd rather she did it cause wanted to not because I demanded it of her.
Read More2y ago TheRedPill
@Posterboy Yeah I am also kinda blessed. I have a decent chance to become attractive. I started lifting recently and I look way better now. I am balding a bit but other than that I was born to a wealthy family and am very successful in my career. But I have friends who are invisible to women, I know their pain. I sometimes wonder if the red pill is selling them false hope. Maybe they should focus on other areas of life like charity, career, travel instead of failing at dating and growing increasingly insecure.
I am happy you liked what I wrote. :D