It was a regular evening and we were having supper with the family. When we were done, I took out the leftover cake we had from a family gathering earlier that week. I cut up some pieces and handed them out. And that's when the troubles began.
Your piece is bigger than mine! It's not fair!!!
Countered by:
Yea, but you ALWAYS get bigger pieces than me and that's not fair!
As you can imagine, this quickly turned into an argument between our children. Voices were raising, tears started flowing and the situation was quickly escalating.
(My husband - God bless him - patiently listened to all sides and eventually made peace. I love this man so much)
Did I mention that there was cake?
Ah, yes. Right. There was cake! Delicious, tasty cake.
But no one could enjoy the cake because they were too busy getting upset about fairness.
And for what exactly? For the tiniest sliver of non existent cake!
I try to cut evenly, I'm sure we all do. We try to avoid this type of bickering. But one piece was indeed, several millimeters larger than the other! Technically, it wasn't fair. I guess...
worlddefare 4y ago
Jealousy is an emotion that's perfectly fine and normal for humans to feel. Instead of acting on it, use it as a map to see where your subconscious mind sees you have potential. If it's something like a piece of cake, focus on your blessings instead
[deleted] 4y ago
Yes. It can be very constructive if it's directed towards improving your life.
But if you allow it to run wild, it's terribly destructive.
vespanewbie 4y ago
Also easiest way to solve the cake cut which my parents would do- have the oldest child cut and the youngest one choose the piece cake. Believe me my older sibling made sure that cake was as equal as possible and I was happy because I had been given a choice.
My older sibling couldn't complain because, well, they cut the cake so if it was uneven that was their problem. I also thought it was a genius solution and taught me the art of negotiation and comprise to try to get both parties what they wanted.
[deleted] 4y ago
This is an excellent short term strategy. To avoid the argument today.
However, it will teach them nothing about the unequal nature of the world and how to be happy in such a world, even when you're the one with less.
emmalai85 4y ago
This is the way, we also give out the biggest piece to the kids who help out the most. Then it's on them if they get a bigger or smaller piece based on work merit.
Life isn't always fair, but cake can be
[deleted] 4y ago
How do you teach them about the unfairness of life and how to remain happy?
emmalai85 4y ago
I guess it's more of an emulation thing.
I'm autistic and I'm naturally just a happy person most of the time.
I find your OP mildly offensive in wording, but I got your point and don't disagree with the premise that coveting what others have and never being happy with whats in front of oyu is a problem.
I just don't like the word loser, learning how to be happy is often a journey.
[deleted] 4y ago
Aha. I see.
Thank you for your feedback regarding the title. Appreciate it.
vespanewbie 4y ago
I think it's strange you have to call other people who don't agree with your world view as "losers", seems a little judgmental. There's jealously and then there's fairness. Even monkeys understand this concept, it's in our nature to want to get our fare share.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meiU6TxysCg
https://nickwignall.com/jealousy/
"Jealousy is a very understandable reaction to realizing that you’re lacking something (or are at risk of losing something) valuable.
From this perspective, then, jealousy isn’t just another “negative emotion” to try and get rid of. It’s a valuable signal reminding you of what really matters to you and the potential risk of losing it or not possessing it."
[deleted] 4y ago
The entire post explains exactly what I meant: the more busy you are, trying to make things fair, the more you will lose out on the blessings that are right there on your plate!
I didn't get into the discussion of how to determine what is and isn't fair. That's a massive topic that I think is unrelated to this forum.
The experiment with the monkeys, isn't at all like most of what people complain about regarding fairness.
The monkeys were very obviously being treated very differently for no obvious reason. This is very important.
Because we treat people differently all the time! But if it's for a good reason, it is still fair. Example: the person stocking the shelves gets paid differently than the manager. This difference doesn't make it unfair, because they're doing different jobs! That's why they're treated differently.
Yes. Jealousy exists for a reason and there are good uses for jealousy. However, most of the time, jealousy is highly destructive.
If your jealousy leads you to do something to tangibly improve your life, then it lead to something good, even though the feeling itself is destructive.
If you just feel sorry for yourself, you will not be able to enjoy the blessings that are right there on your plate.
The monkey cannot escape the cage. Her choice is to enjoy the cucumber or not. She can't change the rest of her situation.
Had she been alone, she would have been happy with the cucumber. She wasn't happy because of jealousy.
You can argue that it's unfair to treat the two monkeys differently. That's a different discussion. What's pertinent to this discussion is - what can this monkey change in her situation?
The answer is: she can change her perspective. She can choose to enjoy the cucumber or throw a tantrum. The tantrum won't change anything. It will just make her more miserable. It will cause her to lose more in life. It will make her into a loser.
(Obviously, monkeys aren't actually capable of that, but us humans are).
vespanewbie 4y ago
Right but if we all had this way of thinking we would have never had the civil rights movement or the women's suffrage movement.
You don't get what you want in life by accepting whatever shit situation life serves up- you get what you want in life by negotiating and not settling. Wanting more and trying to do something about it doesn't make you a loser. Not doing anything about the situation and having it consuming your life isn't healthy but everyone gets jealous, it's a normal human emotion. It's just about how you handle that emotion and what you do about it.
[deleted] 4y ago
I disagree with your assumption.
Let's think about it. Had anyone protested for civil rights or women's suffrage during almost every period in history, they would have been brutally squashed, as they always were!
So what changed in the past few centuries? Why were these things successful now, when they never ever succeeded, in (pretty much) any place, in any time in history?
Because the philosophy and culture were changing. People were already discussing various ideas pertaining to human rights. They argued back and forth on what is and isn't fair, just and moral etc.
It was within this framework, that women's voices demanding rights, would even be considered altogether! In past centuries, you'd just be sent back to the kitchen. Maybe even with a punishment...
So no. Standing up and protesting for our rights, was not the sole factor in obtaining said rights. I'd argue that it wasn't even the main factor. It was simply the last factor in a series of cultural shifts (which had their own reasons for occurring when they did...)
Why do you consider your life to be a "shit situation" solely on the fact that someone else has more than you?
How does their extra prosperity hurt you in any way? How does it diminish your blessings?
It is only jealousy that destroys your ability to appreciate what you have, merely because someone else has more.
It is jealousy that is causing you to lose out in life.
You need to let go of the things that you cannot change.
If you need to petition someone else to change the situation, you cannot change it and therefore, you ought to let go of that.
If you are able to change something and make it better - by all means, go ahead and do that.
Either way, your life is unaffected by anything that someone else has. It doesn't make your life worse, if someone else is a multi-gazillionaire. You will make your own life worse if you choose to be jealous. You will lose out on the enjoyment of life because jealousy will eat at your ability to enjoy life.
Therefore, jealousy will make you into a loser.
vespanewbie 4y ago
So in your world, where people don't complain about unfair situations and just accept whatever situation life throws at them- these conversations would have never had happened. If people didn't think things were unjust- there wouldn't be anything to discuss and the movement wouldn't have happen. Also, the fact that an uprising would have been brutally suppressed didn't matter. In the South slaves escaped for their freedom even thought they were punished, tortured or killed for doing so. In your world, they should have just accepted their situation and toiled for the rest of their life.
​
I'll ask you the same question. The definition of a loser is a person or thing that loses or has lost something, especially a game or contest. Why do you view someone as thinking differently from you as being a "loser"? Life isn't a zero sum game but you are phrasing it that way. "I'm thinking positively about life, others aren't- I'm a winner and those people are losers! I'm so much better than them" Who cares? How does someone else's view point hurt you in away and why do you feel the need to "call out" these people as "losers"?
[deleted] 4y ago
I already answered all your objections. You aren't listening to anything I'm saying. You're just saying that same things again and again. There's no point in continuing this conversation.
Have a wonderful day!
vespanewbie 4y ago
Right that's because your responses aren't logical. You say people shouldn't complain about situations they can't change but stated in impossible situations people would have conversations over hundreds of years about what was fair and right and that led to changes. That means people were discussing that things werent fair even if they couldn't change the situation, when your argument is that they shouldn't and are "losers" for doing so.
I asked why you had to label people as" losers" and why you felt it important to do so seeing but your own argument- it has no impact on your life. You didn't answer that question either.
That being said, I don't think we need to call people names or categorize them negatively just because someone thinks differently from us. I think it's a crutch to try to make people feel good about themselves by putting other people down who think different from them.
FrankieOKnows 4y ago
The world isn’t fair. It’s not fair that some are born into poverty while others have centuries of generational wealth. It’s not fair that some people are innately much smarter, healthier, sexier, and more capable than others could ever dream to be. It’s not fair that women and children get to be cherished and protected and given automatic seats on the lifeboat, while men are expected to put their lives in danger for the sake of the greater good. It’s not fair that women, as the ones who bear the physical responsibility of bearing children, end up being held more responsible for those children than men are in the eyes of society.
Sitting around and counting all the injustices against you, and getting them validated by those in similar circumstances, feels good in the moment. It lets you feel seen and heard. But ultimately, it does absolutely nothing to help you get to a better place. People do not escape poverty by wallowing in their misery. People do not learn to overcome or accommodate their mental, physical, and emotional handicaps by feeling entitled to getting the same treatment that their more capable counterparts get naturally. The men and women who only complain and get angry about how good the opposite sex has it will never feel satisfied or experience the joy of a fulfilling and complementary romantic relationship.
Of course everyone experiences jealousy. Of course everyone gets upset that others have it better than us. But to sit and remain in that jealousy instead of acknowledging and accepting the hand we are dealt is to remain stagnant, trapping ourselves in that place of injustice. The anguish that comes with dwelling on injustice is paralyzing enough. Instead, choosing to be grateful for what you actually have gives you the strength to start to move forward. Accepting your circumstances instead of feeling angry about how unfair it is allows you to make the best of them, which is what will give you the best fighting chance of making it out of that place of injustice at the end of the day.
So even if we all experience jealousy, being unable to move on from that does make us losers, because remaining in that place will keep you from ever actually moving towards the finish line.
[deleted] 4y ago
Depends how you define fair... but that's a whole other can of worms.
Do you have any examples of families with centuries of generational wealth?
Naturally, it doesn't work that way. The natural order is for the first generation to build it (the wealth), the second generation to maintain it and the third generation to squander it!
There are many reasons for this, but the main point is that you only truly deserve what you earn. When it was handed to you, you have a golden opportunity to build further on that. Otherwise, you will squander it all.
It's definitely unequal, but is that unfair?
Either way, the most important question is: what can I change about my own situation?
It's unequal, but is it unfair?
Amen! This is an excellent point! Change what you can change, stop complaining about the things that you can't change.
And for the love of God, don't ruin your enjoyment of life because you're too busy being jealous of someone else.
Excellent comment!
KombuchaEnema 4y ago
You’re right. People don’t escape poverty by wallowing in their misery. They escape poverty by acting.
The same way OP’s children acted to try and get more cake when they felt they didn’t have the same as everyone else.
If the child just sat there and cried, that would be wallowing. Trying to get more cake is actively trying to solve the problem.
Which is different than OP’s solution which is to just accept that you’ll get less cake than your sibling.
[deleted] 4y ago
No. They were not acting to change their situation. They were complaining and whining, trying to get me to change their situation.
For them to change their own situation, they'd need to go earn some money, buy the ingredients and bake their own cake!
The desire to have the same as everyone else, is poison for life. It's fueled by life destroying jealousy.
It's an important lesson to learn early in life. That it's okay to not have the same as someone else. Them having more, doesn't diminish what you have. Enjoy what's on your plate and be grateful that you have a plate that's filled with such blessings.
FrankieOKnows 4y ago
I would classify “your piece is bigger than mine! It’s not fair!!!” as wallowing, just like the people who shout into the void about how unfair it is that there are billionaires while they’re barely getting by are also wallowing. Throwing fits about fairness isn’t an effective way to try to solve problems. Obviously, little children don’t know this yet, but so many adults are stuck in a similar miserable rut with no way out.
I think OP is making a case for gratitude and the power it carries. Not only does gratitude stop you from making a mountain out of a molehill and wrecking your chance at actually enjoying what you currently have, it’s also a good approach to actually solve the problems that arise. Once OP’s kids mature a bit, they might realize that if they thank their mom and tell her how much they enjoyed the delicious cake, Mom’s more likely to give them a second serving if they ask nicely. The same goes in adulthood - you can get angry and make a scene about how it’s unfair that a newer coworker got the promotion over you, or you can congratulate them, humble yourself a bit, and invite them to coffee to see what steps they took to show their potential that you might have not thought to.
[deleted] 4y ago
Yes yes yes!!!!
And their dad. Don't forget him. He's my inspiration in this regard. When I was younger, I was much more jealous of others. He taught me how to truly enjoy what you have and to be grateful for having it. He showed me how to truly be happy for someone else who has more. I still have room to improve in this regard, but the inspiration is definitely from him!
Uh huh.
Absolutely!
Are people sometimes treated unfairly? Of course they are.
But what can I do to improve my own situation. This is all that matters.
vespanewbie 4y ago
I 100% agree that we should show gratitude but I also think seeing others have stuff that you should also have call people to go into action. There are certain things in life we shouldn't get jealous about but there are some situations that are completely unacceptable. As a woman getting paid less then a man doing the same job is unacceptable. This happened to me I brought it up with my manager several times and they told me to accept the situation that there was nothing they could do.
I took and went and got a new job and got an increase of 50% of my salary.
If people didn't have a sense of jealousy or fairness we wouldn't have had the Civil Rights movement or Women's Suffrage- those groups would have just continue to have subpar treatment if they didn't take action.
I think for me saying that jealousy or people who want their fair share are "losers" as just a very general statement that's just not correct. I feel like we don't have to put negative labels on people in order to put ourselves up on a platform to make ourselves feel better.
[deleted] 4y ago
True. However, this is almost never actually the case. It's almost always true, that you get paid differently because you aren't doing the same job.
There are thousands of lawyers and judges, chomping at the bit to prosecute a case of clear discrimination like this. Did you try to sue?
What's the basis for this assumption?
Philosophers were discussing ideas surrounding human rights well before universal suffrage became a thing. These ideas percolating through society, is one of the marks of the enlightenment.
Had these movements arisen a thousand years ago, they would have been brutally squashed. The only reason why anyone listened to these concerns, is because things were already changing. It therefore is not true that the subpar treatment would have continued indefinitely.
vespanewbie 4y ago
*True. However, this is almost never actually the case. It's almost always true, that you get paid differently because you aren't doing the same job."
Yes you are correct we weren't doing the same job- I had an advanced role and was doing more. I was actually managing him and correcting his work and mentoring him and telling him what to do and he was getting paid more than me. I think studies have proven time time again that women are doing the same exact job and are being paid less. This is not a rare case.
"There are thousands of lawyers and judges, chomping at the bit to prosecute a case of clear discrimination like this. Did you try to sue?"
No they stated it was because he was new that the current market rate went up and that's why he got paid more.
" The only reason why anyone listened to these concerns, is because things were already changing."
Right because people finally believed that they deseved fair treatment and took action. Others saw that people were being treated unfairly and supported those marginalized people. If they just accepted the situation and didn't fight for what was fair, there would be no change. Yes maybe it took a thousand years but progress was made. If people just accept it the status quo like you suggest it would have never happened.
KombuchaEnema 4y ago
On one hand, I agree that petty jealousy destroys relationships.
On the other hand, I do think fairness is important and I don’t think that people are wrong for bringing up issues with their partner regarding fairness.
This argument you’re making could easily be used to pressure someone into becoming a doormat and not standing up for themselves in situations where they absolutely ought to stand up for themselves.
However, there are peaceful ways to solve it. For example, if me and my husband are both working full-time, but I’m doing 80% of the chores and he does 20%, I would try not to frame it as “this isn’t fair! You only have to do 20% and I’m doing 80%”
I would instead try to frame it as, “Honey, I’m very tired and I would like to spend some time with you at the end of the day but I’m always doing chores right up until bed time…is there any way we can figure this out?”
[deleted] 4y ago
I don't see it.
My whole point is one of self ownership and taking responsibility. It's impossible to become a doormat while doing that.
RSCyka 4y ago
If we argued with siblings about food. We would both lose the privilege.
I’m talking cake here.
mucahitkayadan 4y ago
For the cake, there is a method called "prophet method". One cuts and other one chooses. Zero argue.
[deleted]