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Posted 3y ago in Social Issues - Permalink - Locked - 8.7K Views
Created By MenAreFine
This is intended as a placeholder - but feel free to join and do tribal stuff! I'm u/goodmod on r/MensRights.
novhaku 3y ago
Disagree wit the "make fun of". It's not the main problem. The main problem is that the men are free target and don't get sympathy, and thus there is nothing stopping others (particularly women, since it's quite common in relationships) to stop what a man talks about against him. Men "opening up" is a false good option, it's not something to do if men don't get the same sympathy as women, and it's not about looking "effeminate" or whatever else; this is just one way of using the weakness one shows among many, many, many others.
Fix the fact that men are free targets you can do anything to and they don't deserve respect and get rod of the women are wonderful effect, and you'll fix "toxic masculinity" at the same time without even noticing it. But it'll be at the expense of female privilege, special treatment, and right to act as a complete jerk because "muh freedom", so it's not a surprise that it's not that popular of a talking point.
yoitsericc 3y ago
Men aren't killing themselves because we feel like we can't cry.
We are killing ourselves because if we did, no one would give a shit anyways.
shitholejedi 3y ago
The vast majority of suicides aren't anything about feelings not being heard. They are related to consequential realities that they see have no solveable route like unemployment.
You could talk all day about how you feel and that wouldn't eliminate the pressure from having no job or losing your kids to a divorce or a chronic illness.
Chaos_Therum 3y ago
Yeah, it's a lack of purpose in your life that causes men to do this. Feeling useless and unnecessary.
yoitsericc 3y ago
I think we are saying the same thing but with a bit of a different spin.
Dr_Happygostab 3y ago
Lack of services and funding to support and reluctance to seek out help when needed because of stigma are absolutely linked to an increased suicide rate.
shitholejedi 3y ago
Climate has a more robust and concretely studied effect on suicide rate than what you have claimed.
The western world has a more comprehensive support system but is still the hotspot for suicides.
Dr_Happygostab 3y ago
Ok. Apologies for the rant but I thoroughly disagree with what you've said, and misinformation is rife in this area. This is not excluding this being an issue amongst women but men's health issues are often buried in the narrative.
So.
The Western world has a greater disparity in successful suicide rate between the sexes (3-4:1) but its not the hotspot, most suicide takes place in to middle income countries, for example the USA rates 34th for suicide rates amongst reported successful suicide rates.
Im not sure what you've asserted by saying climate has been more extensively studied that sex as an independent risk factor for suicide. The gender paradox in suicide is one of the most studied areas in psychiatry and features quite heavily in any suicide reduction strategy. One of the issues is almost all countries won't fund mental health unilaterally for males despite there being a clear difference.
Culture and stigma play a significant role in suicide rates and methods. In the West, women are more likely to attempt and report (this is important) attempted suicide, but choose less violent means and are much less succesful, but in South East Asia, the rates are nearly equal, and in China women are slightly more successful and this has been equated to cultural and family roles, and are more often to use pesticide poisoning and self immolation (Ive seen this one in South India, worst thing I've ever seen).
Prior to successful suicide, women are 20-50% more likely to have sought help for their depression. This has been heavily attributed to stigma, traditional views of masculinity, self independence and roles as a provider. Risk factors such as parents divorcing in childhood, poor social network, divorce, unemployment, homelessness all are independently associated with successful suicide. This is isolation. This is the problem. Its not about talking about it, its about not being isolated in your problems, its about not feeling like there is no way out.
Reduction of stigma has been important in penetrative and uptake of public health measures. This has best been seen in breast cancer screening, normalising getting a mammogram, it was taboo to study and talk about womens health in mainstream medicine outside of childbirth in the early 20th Century. We're trying to do the same with men and prostate cancer, trying to make it normal to see your Dr and to get your prostate examined, remove the stigma.
All of this is hard to study emperically. Under reporting, bias, politics. But it is important we treat this as what it is, a disease. A disease with a treatment and its ok to seek help, you aren't a failure, you aren't weak. And making men know (and women of course, this isn't about ignoring their needs), to seek help is part of your health and self management is key.
Im sorry for the long rant but this is an important area of interest for me and I disagree with your assertion. Im happy to read anything you recommend if there is an article about what you've suggested. Always happy to hear an opposing point of view.
Nath43673 3y ago
Are you familiar with the situational approach to the prevention of male suicide? One of the criticisms of current policies for prevention (at least in Australia) is that they may overemphasise mental health diagnoses, and that this is less effective for the prevention of male suicide in particular. Research seems to indicate that male suicide is particularly linked to "situational distressors" like job losses, relationship breakups and is not necessarily preceded by symptoms of depression and other mental health concerns.
EDIT: Not dismissing concerns like stigma, traditional male gender expectations, which also play some role.
Dr_Happygostab 3y ago
Yes I did talk about the situational aspects in one of the paragraphs above, but that just reinforces the issues and driving forces between the sexes are different requiring different strategies. Publically funded mental health programs often lack this subtlety, blame politics here.
My point was more that stigma prevents men from seeking help when they need it most, even if not proceeded by a mental health diagnosis. Being it from their dr or a friend.
Its not just mental health issues, men see their GP for chronic health issues less across the board.
Its juat one of the aspects of masculinity we have to bury as soon as possible. Alot lives would be saved if we could.
shitholejedi 3y ago
No. Suicide 'rate' is highest in upper middle income countries to high income countries. That is the western world. Which is what I hve stated.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
Where have I stated this.None of my statements have anything about the suicide disparity by gender.
And please post that link that shows how males handle their feelings differently from females is why their suicide risk is higher. That If they handled their feelings similarly to women their depression would dip.
This isn't true you can go to my first link. The Chinese was a study done in 1990 and hasn't been true for the past 2 decades.
And unironically the East Asian rate being so high is due to males and females having the same economic expectations.
This is not what you think it alludes to. A successful suicide means that the intervention process bore no fruition.
So why did you claim you have studies showing it in your first comment. I am curious about that link you claim shows a direct increase. Since I can very clearly back my point on climate with a study.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26041492/
Irony.
Dr_Happygostab 3y ago
Sure this is a recent article that deals specifically with Canada but its about the masculine role in mental health and suicide and the barriers it creates in treating them.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6109884/
Im not doubting what you said about seasons, that's been very clearly demonstrated in the Scandanavian countries, much higher rates of all mental illness across the board despite their excellent public health services.
My point was there is a mountain of research on gender roles and suicide, i was quoting the outcomes from south East Asian countries as different cultural and gender roles (as well as access to care) changes that.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4539867/
What you said about the rate of female suicide in China is true, I was using older data. But my comment about suicide rates were overall numbers rather than per 100,000, for which Asia accounts for the majority 60%.
shitholejedi 3y ago
Your first article has no data on the effect of anything you have claimed to suicide rate. Infact it has shown data and numbers for everything it has stated from employment to divorce to illness except on the theory you claimed.
Because for someone who claims to be passionate about such issues you throw in baseless theories with empirically studied phenomena just muddies your statements.
And ofcourse developing countries have a majority of cases they have 75% of the worlds population. That is why its logically sound to use percentages or to compare rate.
Dr_Happygostab 3y ago
Yes, all those factors play an important role. I've talked about them
This comes back to my statement that factors involved in psychology, social sciences are difficult to empirically study by their very nature. No study design can perfectly capture what are socio-economically and culturally ingrained roles.
After you have data you have to form a hypothesis why, otherwise hard data alone is pointless. Why do men commit successful suicide at a higher rate? Why do they not take up medical interventions at the same rate as women? Because at the end of the day, the point of this is to make the difference.
My issue was with the statement that talking doesn't help. That statement alone is impossible to emperically study.
But regardless of what anyone thinks its important to normalise talking about it, seeing your Dr, psychologist, gardner, mechanic, literally anyone because until it is normal men will suffer in silence. That was my point.
Thank you for the discussion.
shitholejedi 3y ago
Weird how they numerically study literally everything every other cause apart from your theory then at that point they become difficult to study.
You mean like being more prone to risk taking behaviours, more lethal methods, more likely to look for a final solution etc. All those things that have been studied and have data points to back them up?
Psychology becomes a strange subject because of this. Theories that fall flat once you let them have their way rather than use data.
Notsogoldencompany 3y ago
People pontificate, "Suicide is selfishness." Career churchmen like Pater go a step further and call in a cowardly assault on the living. Oafs argue this specious line for varying reason: to evade fingers of blame, to impress one's audience with one's mental fiber, to vent anger, or just because one lacks the necessary suffering to sympathize. Cowardice is nothing to do with it - suicide takes considerable courage. Japanese have the right idea. No, what's selfish is to demand another to endure an intolerable existence, just to spare families, friends, and enemies a bit of soul-searching.
From the book Cloud Atlas
OofieElfie 3y ago
It's definitely not the main reason but it's certainly a contributing factor. I'm fairly sure that there is a correlation between suppressing one's emotions and depression, or at least the worsening of that depression. Again, not saying it's the sole or even main cause of the higher suicide rates. Just that it's unhealthy for society to continue perpetuating an emotional standard for men that actively damages their mental state.
mherm79 3y ago
The middle part is meant to be sarcasm, that is this guys comedic style. His point being, we should be shocked at the rate men are killing themselves, be are not because we’ve created this story where men have an easy life, then he add to his point with some realism.
I think it’s a clever way to draw attention to this issue
Flaktrack 3y ago
This comment seems to indicate otherwise. This guy is a legitimate male feminist. It's pretty disgusting.
janearcade 3y ago
It's fair to say menstrating is not a benefit.
RenegadeJedi 3y ago
I would say ‘its supposed to be pretty good’
MDJDKDAD 3y ago
Nobody has created a story where men have 'an easy life'. Not anyone worth taking seriously, this has never been what any of these things mean.
cerkie2 3y ago
He’s saying men have it easy in those visible ways, but our suffering is less visible in terms of repression and toxic masculinity.
mavesticks 3y ago
I disagree. Men’s privilege is also men’s burden.
Dunkolunko 3y ago
I know the comedian too, it doesn't sound sarcastic to me. Jovial, jokey, but ultimately assocuative humour. His comments abiutbeing taught not to cry, to appear masculine andnot gay or feminine, appears to me to be his essential point about what causes male suicide. It fits in with his personality as he struggled withhis own sexuality when younger.
mherm79 3y ago
Exactly his point. He knows exactly what’s it like to be expected to me ‘man enough’.
MalevolentThings 3y ago
You picked up on all that but not the sarcasm? Okay.
mimiczx 3y ago
Gotcha. Im not familiar with the speaker so of it was sarcastic then it makes much more sense.
mherm79 3y ago
No problem, he is a Aussie comedian. I think he is quite funny
N19864 3y ago
What's his name? Thx
Nerfixion 3y ago
Josh Thomas.
https://youtu.be/zZuL_2hUaoI
N19864 3y ago
Thanks mate. The clip was depressing. There was no sarcasm about patriarchy and the other stuff, he meant what he said.
qemist 3y ago
If he's a comedian on the ABC, he's an SJW.
purplecramps 3y ago
Yeah, exactly. People are misinterpreting the sarcasm as sincere belief that this guy believes in the "patriarchy" and "male privilege"
qemist 3y ago
Or lip service for credibility?
FrogTrainer 3y ago
I thought the sarcasm was pretty clear just from the text.
bubbascal 3y ago
He doesn't make it sound (or look, with dramatic hands or something) sarcastic so there is no way to tell.
Also, this is Poe's law in effect, I think.
mutedloquacity 3y ago
That's sad. I saw it right away. The facetious comment fits with the rest of his point. He's subtly challenging the people who say men have all these advantages and asking why they kill themselves so much then. He's good.
1like2learn 3y ago
In academic feminism forcing men to behave a certain way falls under patriarchy. The idea is that our male centered society is just as interested in policing the behavior of men as it is in women. The society is interested in maintaining itself, men who are willing to break the mold that perpetuates society is just as dangerous as women who do the same.
Whether or not he's sarcastic he's not wrong
harbingerofcircles 3y ago
Definitely definitely agree.
Dean_Clean 3y ago
Regardless of whether it's the "Patriarchy" or not policing men to "not share their feelings", many of us know that it is collective women who simultaneously state that men should share their feelings (shed their toxic masculinity) and then also shame men for sharing their feelings and causing them to do "unpaid emotional labor".
1like2learn 3y ago
There are absolutely women who uphold toxic expectations for men. Men are just as guilty though. This is not a one group is creating the problem kind of issue. It's a problem with our culture
truth-informant 3y ago
Well doesn't the opposite express the point more explicitly? Like, despite this advantage, whether true or not, men are still killing themselves at greater numbers? Or am I just missing something?
mcchanical 3y ago
Humour is a powerful tool and you can't have humour if you just state facts with a straight face.
truth-informant 3y ago
Yea, maybe. I just don't see the humor in downplaying the issue for comedic effect, then immediately going back to being serious.. it just seems odd. Why not play straight faced the whole way and then maybe add something humorous at the end to lighten the mood. It just seems off as it is...
mcchanical 3y ago
Humour doesn't downplay anything, it presents it in a way that is digestible and not depressing. We discuss taboos in humour and satire. "Expressing the point more explicitly" doesn't entice people into the discussion as well as well done satire does.
ICEKAT 3y ago
Tough to read sarcasm. Tones are notoriously difficult in print, without being specifically pointed out.
DignityDWD 3y ago
Yeah but considering what sub you're on (along with the rest of the panels), I thought the context made it clear enough
ColorMeOffended 3y ago
Yeah, at some point it stops being Poe's Law and starts being dense people
EnslavedOpethFan053 3y ago
I understood the sarcasm perfectly fine. I don't know how anyone could not honestly.
DignityDWD 3y ago
"it didn't have /s how was I supposed to tell it was sarcasm"
ICEKAT 3y ago
Consider, Half the time, on this sub, such things are posted to point out how 'cuck' some men have gotten.
mcchanical 3y ago
I've considered, and I think you're wrong.
[deleted] 3y ago
It’s so obvious, though...
nathanielsnider 3y ago
except for that in the video it doesn't seem like it
pixiebubblez 3y ago
Dude's Australian and sarcasm is a huge part of our culture so we tend to be more subtle with it since we're used to detecting it.
KeithQ96 3y ago
Yeah I'm Irish and it's absolute sarcasm!
schnellzer 3y ago
I'm Australian and pretty familiar with both sarcasm amd Josh Thomas. I don't think he's being sarcastic, I think he's just picked his audience (this is a somewhat leftist panel show) and has brought up issues that both sexes face, so as not to be branded an "MRA" and have his point ignored.
mherm79 3y ago
Except everyone in the crowd is waiting for the laughs, he pauses for effect as well.
Dunkolunko 3y ago
https://youtu.be/zZuL_2hUaoI
This is the video. Josh is not being sarcastic about patriarchy, he is a feminist, he's listing what he thinks are privileges as associative humour so that the audience will think "Yeah we do have all that stuff, so what exactly is our problem? Lol!" before he gives the REAL answer to why men kill themselves, which is of course the most reductionist, non feminist contradicting take possible. If you disagree can anyone show me an example of Josh questioning the patriarchy narrative in a serious way?
mimiczx 3y ago
Ugh... "You know women are allowed to vote you know"... Annnnnnnd... He went full White Knight...
N19864 3y ago
You are right. He does not seem like he is being sarcastic at all.
cerkie2 3y ago
You wont find it cos hes a realist. The patriarchy doesnt just mean life is great as a man. In fact it means the opposite: means dominance and toxic masculinity have hurt all of society, men and women alike. Feminists dont think “men oppress women”, they think that both men and women are oppressed by gender inequality and gender norms, in a double edged way, and they describe this dynamic as the patriarchy.
LegendaryEmu1 3y ago
I think you're looking for menslib.
Dunkolunko 3y ago
You don't know what feminists describe, you've heard soundbites of the bailey part of a motte and bailey argument and tried to twist it into something completely different to what mainstream feminist literature describes.
cerkie2 3y ago
I follow a whole bunch of feminists on social media to be honest
Dunkolunko 3y ago
Neat.
Nath43673 3y ago
Yeah, they need to update that vocabulary. "Patriarchy" implies male rule and power. It's the dictionary definition.
cerkie2 3y ago
Welllll yeah i could agree with that. But its the same thing as white supremacy. It doesnt mean all white people oppress all black people. It means powerful white people use whiteness to create systemic inequality. Its the same here. Powerful men have used maleness to create systemic inequality. It doesnt mean all men are in power.
The name is distracting for people with only a superficial understanding and i agree thats a problem, but theyre describing the use of gender constructs anyway, most feminists know that patriarchy in terms of “male supremacy” is based on a version of maleness that was created for the purpose of power, just like in white supremacy.
Nath43673 3y ago
These days, I think a more useful term would be one that is less centred around the language of rulership and dominance. That's only one aspect of the unhealthy gender norms and expectations imposed on men and boys, and indeed on women and girls.
Then again, I think feminists made an even worse mistake by popularising the term Toxic Masculinity. Talk about a word that's almost guaranteed to be misunderstood.
cerkie2 3y ago
Haha yeah i agree. Honestly out of all of these terms i feel like feminism is the most awkward. We dont call antiracism blackism. We recognise white supremacy. We recognise white fragility (which would correspond to toxic masculinity). But feminism is obviously tied to the word “feminine” in an awkward way.
Personally i dont mind toxic masculinity. I can see how people think it means “masculinity is toxic”, but i see it more the way we talk about “corrupt politicians”. Its not that all politicians are corrupt, we’re just talking about the corrupt ones. Its not like all masculinity is toxic, we’re just talking about the toxic stuff. The stufff i talked about from my own childhood, being taught that men shouldnt express themselves and that anger is an appropriate response to all sorts of grievances where we would be better off exposing our sadness but arent allowed to. The idea that we should be dominant and impervious and stuff like that. Theres obviously toxic femininity too in the way that women internalise their objectification and become overly invested in superficial beauty, or the ways that women are taught to be submissive and not to advocate for themselves.
The feminism i know destroys both sets of expectations and norms, not just swaps them around! For me its about giving men and women both the freedom to be fully human with obviously a slight emphasis on the liberation of women because feminism had to work so hard to get them the vote, ownership of property, political representation, ownership of their own bodies in terms of reproductive rights, and freedom from sexual exploitation in the workplace a la #metoo.
Just like the civil rights movement for black people, feminism was once a battlefield where women were fighting just to survive and men, broadly, were fighting just as hard to maintain the status quo. I can see how some feminists overshoot and still consider it an all-out battle but they’re not the kind i have on my radar at all.
Nath43673 3y ago
Yeah I was going to mention "feminism" but that seemed too obvious!
To be honest, I haven't had much experience with the good or the bad kind of feminists. I had the same sorts of insights you discussed around unhealthy male gender expectations back in the 90s when it seemed like the men's movement might become a thing.
I do think there's a lot of common ground between the kind of feminism you're describing and the frustrations and injustices discussed here. But I take issue with feminists who think they "own" men's issues and expect everyone to use their vocabulary. I just wish men as a group had got it together sooner instead of settling for the status quo for so long.
cerkie2 3y ago
Yeah totally! I guess what we have to do is seek out people on either side of the debate we have common ground with rather than focussing on the ones we disagree with
Flaktrack 3y ago
For nearly all my life, women have been my teachers, principals, employers, and managers. Virtually all of them have ignored issues directly facing myself or other men, or even been the cause of them (feminist college professors were the worst offenders by far).
The few men in my life were largely supportive and loathed letting problems fester. These men helped me get educated, get work, and learn to stand on my own. Most of the women simply didn't care. I cherish the women who are exceptions and treat them like queens, but the guys are just the guys. It's what we do for each other without even thinking about it.
Women have a lot to learn about men, and feminism sure as hell is not going to be the delivery method because feminism excludes us by design.
cerkie2 3y ago
Not the feminists i know! Feminism works great for me and has helped liberate me as a man.
Flaktrack 3y ago
I never felt more free in my whole life than when some guys who had stuck with me through my weakest times helped show me what it meant to be a man without the feminist indoctrination. I have helped do the same for several men, and they have gone on to become independent and even quite successful.
Feminism chains you in ways you don't fully understand and are often counter-productive to women's interests, but in time you will. I encourage you to hang around here, keep chatting, and ask lots of questions.
cerkie2 3y ago
I think we’re talking about two entirely different versions of what feminism is. The feminism i know is about deconstructing gender inequality and gender norms, and thats a two way street and one that has given me only good things. It sounds like youre talking about a few extreme elements of feminism and that you could do with spending some time in their community rather than reading only sensationalist reactionary commentary on fringe personalities.
Like for me feminism is pretty banal. Its not complicated or anything, its literally just a critique of the way that gender is used to oppress in the same way that anti racism is a critique of the way that race is used to oppress.
fleethead 3y ago
You’re one of the lucky ones. Most men today are raised and taught by feminists, usually middle aged single women, who direct all their bitterness and self hatred at little boys because men bad. For me this was the case and it left me a young man with no direction, no self esteem, no ability to stand up for myself. I was brittle, feminine, and broken. Until I started to question mainstream narratives. The few ‘real’ feminists I know, including my dear sister, are subtly influenced by horrible ideas of ‘extremist’ feminists, who supposedly don’t represent ‘real’ feminism. It’s subtle but the influence is there - and I don’t blame them for falling victim. It saddens me to be honest but all I can do is not let myself be gaslighted by society any longer.
cerkie2 3y ago
Im sorry to hear that that sounds really awful.
Personally i have kind of the opposite gaslighting. I was raised by a very stern dad who displayed very little emotion and was indoctrinated into this idea that being a man meant being invulnerable, so one thing that feminism did in my recent years was to smash that down.
I guess there are always extremes. I mean once upon a time women being allowed to vote was considered extreme so i recognise the value of extremists in some corcumstances, but obviously in your case it really hurt you.
I dont want to sell you feminism but the feminism i know says be whatever you want to be and dont let gender restrict your expression or opportunities. I can see how some feminists would corrupt that purpose and become the authoritarians they once professed to fight against, and create new restrictions on expression.
You have any good resources showing the kind of dogma you were exposed to?
fleethead 3y ago
Thanks for listening to my perspective. I’m sorry for implying you had it easy, I tend to get antagonistic on reddit. Here’s something about feminism in schools: link
And here’s an example of anti-male stuff I used to hear all the time in school. They weren’t fringe extremists, they were regular teachers, I’d say around 70% of the teachers I had were like this: link
As a boy I became desensitised to hearing things like this said or insinuated by feminist teachers or even by family members. It’s only after I started having some self respect at age 20 that I realised how I’d been raised and educated in spite of my masculinity, rather than in congruence with it. It doesn’t help that most mainstream media is feminist and just reiterates the same messages that men are perverted, dangerous, guilty and obsolete.
As far as the definition you gave, it’s refreshing to hear another person profess those views. They are the views of egalitarianism I had since I was a boy and do today. The only people in my life that have ever challenged my belief that gender should not restrict a person’s opportunities were feminists. The only people antagonistic to my human rights were feminists. So I have a lot of trouble associating the word feminist with those values. The few egalitarian ‘true’ feminists that I know personally have showed throughout our friendships that they tend to be receptive to ideas that dehumanise men. This is why I believe that even if it were true that ‘extremist feminism’ was a minor part of the movement, they have significant enough influence over common feminist ideology that the ideology is tainted.
l_u_4n 3y ago
Is this from an actual Show? If so where can i find it?
UbiquitousWobbegong 3y ago
I don't actually think this is as clear cut as a lot of people think it is. I don't think it's just culture that leads men to kill themselves more often than women. I think it's biology as well.
Men are more assertive than women. They take risks more often. In my experience, they are more prideful about being a success without being propped up by others, and I think this may be rooted in evolutionary biology, and not just how we raise men.
If we combine those factors, that means men are going to kill themselves more effectively and more readily than women (statistically) given our current societal situation. We have loads of depressed people, loads of lonely people, and social trends that reinforce isolation (MeToo, Feminism, etc). We also have a very crappy starting point for young people trying to enter the workforce, where wages and upward mobility have stagnated, and we immigrate a lot of educated people instead of incentivizing our young people to grow in to those positions.
When women are more successful than men, and refuse to date people less successful than themselves, is it any surprise that men who can't start a family or a career kill themselves or bury themselves in videogames?
So we have sociocultural, socioeconomic, and biological variables all tuned to push men to use a bullet instead of downing a whole bottle of painkillers. Is it any surprise that men are dying more from suicide? And how do we change any of those factors without disadvantaging women? I'm not sure we can.
I think society is just going to accept a certain level of male suicide. It's easier for them than fixing the problems that we experience.
accidental_me 3y ago
Men have been killing themselves more than women for ages. Also, male suicides are more common all over the world. Though not in China where female suicides are a little more common.
What have all these men in common through ages and continents? Perhaps people who kill themselves tend to be down and out. Men are far more often marginalized, defeated, homeless, without family and children, and so forth. So, perhaps it's mostly just statistics, probabilities. Those people who tend to kill themselves are just far more often men.
IMHO it's often the case that the problems of men are hard to solve because people and women, in particular, have a very, very distorted picture of what men really are like statistically. They see privileges and strength in people who often don't have them.
Sergey32321 3y ago
"men get paid more"
Actually it's the oposite, also men get fucked over at work more...
ThatOldGuyWhoDrinks 3y ago
It's a picture I can hear.
C0II1n 3y ago
The problem with this argument is that all women have to do is play the male toxicity card
Politicalmudpit 3y ago
except women who cry all the time attempt to kill themselves more, so crying actually makes it more likely to kill yourself.
If we go with the dumb logic all of this uses. None of this is scientific.
Men kill themselves more because they are more aggressive and more willing to be more violent, women attempt suicide more.
why is this shit getting shared?
DaSpood 3y ago
3x more attempts with women, 3x more success with men. Because women tend to use less violents methods that end up being very ineffective in most cases, like cutting or overdosing over a bullet or hanging. That's the only facts about this.
However it's also facts that men are taught to "man up" and keep their problems to themselves. Society does not allow them to be weak mentally or physically. If you're depressed, you're reminded how easy you have it and that you have no reason to feel down. If you're being harassed / abused, you're told to just be stronger and defend yourself, or just ignored. While not for the same reasons as women, men still have plenty of reasons to be pushed to suicide. And I'm personnaly convinced if there were more studies about this we'd also see a link between how society treats them and why they choose the more effective methods from the start.
ProfetenEdgar 3y ago
This is a woman’s idea of how to fix men’s mental health issues.
Sarm11111 3y ago
Horse shit. Very little of the emotional state of men can be attributed by culture. Or we would have had more suicides in the years where suck up soldier on was the norm. The suicide rate is caused by single motherhood, no male influence and the forced behaviour of sitting and listening the girls do so well. From birth until graduation every boy is subjected to female femsplaining how we are supposed to feel, raised and taught almost exclusively by women. Yet some how 18 years of female influence is causing more men and boys to kill the,selves in record numbers. Men are stoic by nature, we have our own behaviours that are critical to proper development, and that’s fight, rough housing , abundance of energy, can’t sit still. That’s normal and critical for bboys. But with enough amphetamines (riddlein) antidepressants they can impersonate female behaviour but there is a price. The single common issue for almost every mass killing by young men is no father, and brain damage from using years of amphetamines half their lives while the critical functions of the brain are forming. We dint think long term women just thought shut up and settle down and take your pills. So look in the mirror ladies masculinity isn’t causing shootings a 3 to 6 times the suicide rate for women, it’s the lack of it. Although it’s probably hurried ot destroyed now there was a study done on brain activity in males and females. They were subjected to pictures designed to produce a emotional response and they found that men take 3x longer to react emotionally to stimulus and once felt was considerable less in amplitude then women.
We are different yet women try to raise boys as if they are the same, imagine being a boy that is having 24 7 subjugation being told how bad masculinity is, yet inside the boy knows it feels right to rough house, play contact sports, even get in fights. But all that is wrong, mom said so. Then you go to school we’re every teacher is a woman and the classes are designed to tech quite settled girls, (there was a study done that showed female teachers mark boys essays a grade below the girls. The study had girls submitted work with a male name and thier grades tanked) so boys are now drugged, in different ways for acting like boys, they are shamed and discriminated for their emotions and aggressions, again it feels right, I must be broken. 9 a good ted talk was by a women that once a card carrying feminist got a wake up, she came home and her 8 year old was crying, she asked what, he asked do I have. To grow up to be a man, again she asked. Why, his reply was, men are bad I don’t want to be bad, it was then she new we’ve gone to far) They have never been guided by a real masculine figure that shows boys positive ways to control thier aggression, the drugs have cost unrepairable brain damage and seems to be making young men into mass killers. And since their education was marked down marked down by what women call internalize misogyny but for females and the brainwashing makes them think thier stupid they are not going to collage. Since 80%of women are chasing the top 20% of men including a degree in it they now have fewer prospects for barrage, since unlike men women don’t date down. So the job pushing carts at the supermarket ain’t getting you any sex you start drowning those sorrows in booze and drugs and those few buddies that did get married were divorce raped and again those poor bastards see all this, say f it, and go on a rampage or yawn on a shot gun.
So if men are learning all that no emotion stuff, it’s not by men, take a bow ladies you are raising undereducated drugged up killers. You go girl
chipperchops 3y ago
My MIL still to this day talks about how whiny he was as a kid. He was beaten up and bullied on the regular! No way she'd say that if he was a little girl! Now she's saying the same thing about her 2-yo grandson but not equally emotional granddaughter.
She also threatened repeatedly to have his brother beat him up if he was gay. Ahhh, the 2000s. "Fag bashing" is OK if men do it.
[deleted] 3y ago
Truth. This is why I transitioned. Western women have it fucking eaaaaaaaaasy.
Saerain 3y ago
I do think it's less that boys are simply "taught to stop" crying at 8 or 9, than that the hormonal changes begin to result in crying less.
Granted, the social pressure is there as well. For centuries we've liked to exaggerate the natural differences of the sexes for various reasons, like a man or woman being more male or female makes them more human. This is where I sympathize most with such things as the "nonbinary", "genderqueer" phenomenon, although they become ideologically crazed with it. Everyone's got to be an extremist...
Spydiggity 3y ago
I don't get the crying part, at all. Everyone should learn how to control their emotions. That's called growing up.
accidental_me 3y ago
Crying, like laughing and other expressions, are often communication more than inability to control your emotions. Men just don't want to communicate as much as women because men are stoic.
avtarius 3y ago
When you deny yourself emotions you become indifferent, then start to realise there's no reason for human existence.
Spydiggity 3y ago
Yeah. I didn't say deny. I said control. When you're a child, you throw tantrums. When you're an adult, it doesn't then become "showing your emotions." You learn to control your emotions, which a lot of women don't ever do. And more and more, men are getting this way, too. It's not at all healthy to lose control when things don't go your own way. We just watched 5 weeks of alleged adults throwing tantrums.
avtarius 3y ago
Well controlling doesn't mean don't cry right ?
"We just watched 5 weeks of alleged adults throwing tantrums." - the BLM rioting ?
I can't say they're right but neither are they wrong. Look at Venezuela, Italy, etc. People gotta do what they gotta do to survive. Only about 5% of the world has positive NW anyway.
Game has always been rigged, regardless of it being cultural, social, economical, or the real tyrannical engineering. This ecosystem however does obey nature's law of Survival of the Fittest, but it ignores humanity's biological purpose of evolution.
Spydiggity 3y ago
If your mother dies, I dont expect you to be stoic and just not show how you feel.
If your boyfriend gets you the wrong necklace for xmas, I expect you to not throw dishes across the kitchen.
I dont know what the rest of what you're talking about is. But yes, blm and antifa are perpetual children who cant control their tantrums, likely because their parents (single mother) didnt teach them how.
avtarius 3y ago
I won't feel sad about death, as it's a release from physical torment.
I actually cry when I'm overwhelmingly happy though. It's just tears welling up but that counts.
I let my anger out immediately as I don't want to keep it pent up until it becomes a volcano. This is because I have zero patience for idiocy, which is kinda rampant.
I also do not see anything wrong with taking lives, so long as they're a threat to my existence. It's just the paperwork I don't wanna deal with as it's a waste of time.
ernis45 3y ago
And I'm one example. I have been hiding my emotions my whole life, I didn't cry as a kid in my grandpas funeral, never really cried after that unless I'm blackout drunk with my gf. But the mastery of suppressed feeling came with the price, I no longer see the point of human existence, I don't see why humans still think it's ok to make children in this day and age, I hate most people for the horde mentality, I no longer see black and white even, now I just see black and grey.
avtarius 3y ago
I'm a high functioning empath which makes me highly apathetic (or indifferent) as there really is no logic in most of humanity's current existence.
Yup, lemmings will be lemmings. I was always a square peg. Am happy with my current progress in life, and I identified the life goal of living long to watch the world burn, being rewarded in 2020.
I also invest only in the future and not the past, which makes me dismiss the notion of filial piety and such. It really makes no sense for parents to invest in their kids, and then impede the children's economic progress during early adulthood. The kids should return to the parents to take care of them only after they're financially comfortable.
Too much to point out, no solutions in sight.
Mr_Volkstaat 3y ago
People who feel this way might be able to turn to religion, I suppose, to help them find a sense of purpose and see some colour in this grey world. Or, you can go out into nature and get away from human problems for the same effect.
ernis45 3y ago
Yeah, nature helps a lot, shame I can't live like tarzan... And for religion, I was all in to it, but as years went by I just can't believe any god would let humanity be like it is now.
Mr_Volkstaat 3y ago
I guess that's why Abrahamic religions talk about Judgment Day.
avtarius 3y ago
Judgment day is just the easy answer for people (the masses) who do not want to work on improving themselves, and to defer any intrinsic faults on external problems. You see this transference of responsibility in a lot of human interactions every day.
Death is always the easy way out as existence on earth is torment, torment which can actually strengthen the self for progress. Humans are creatures of conflict meant to create stronger future generations, which isn't happening in this day and age for most of the population.
Mr_Volkstaat 3y ago
A compelling argument, I'll admit. I agree with you, the majority of people are like that and use these as excuses. Me? I go the opposite and correct direction.
I take these things (Judgment Day, death etc.) being inevitable as a reason to work on improving myself, to face the day with strength and courage, to make something of myself so that right here and now, what I do counts for something. Pain I welcome in order to become stronger, so that when it's all over I can be proud of myself. If there is a God, I want to be judged worthy of Heaven.
ernis45 3y ago
Did they miss the deadline or something? Cause Noah's Ark happened for a lot less...
Mr_Volkstaat 3y ago
We shall have to wait and see.
Mr_Volkstaat 3y ago
Plus we've still got plenty of funny and wholesome things to enjoy before then. Like when cunts get punched in the face by car enthusiasts. (if you know you know)
thoreushi 3y ago
I feel like there are more steps lol
Auntie_Hero 3y ago
Never mind that its mostly women shaming men into not feeling anything.
accidental_me 3y ago
Being stoic and not feeling anything is not the same thing. Women want men to feel love, for example, but they don't want us to be like they themselves but instead emotionally stable.
Dunkolunko 3y ago
Typical feminist bullshit claiming men are advantaged and hoisted up by the patriarchy which none of us can see or feel and really appears to not be there, and our only problem is that we are "taught" not to cry, so if we just cried we wouldn't kill ourselves.
Guy has noooo clue.
that-guy-with-art 3y ago
He sounds like he's being sarcastic to bring attention to the issue. I hazard to say he is being sarcastic about the "patriarchy" based on everything else about what he's saying
Dunkolunko 3y ago
I know Josh Thomas. I don't think he's being parodic, I think he believe he thinks he's making a serious point about toxic masculinity as the sole source of men's mental health issues in a privileged world.
thegenericnameboi 3y ago
yeah, but tbf sarcasm is pretty hard to detect in print
that-guy-with-art 3y ago
Yeah, which is why I'm still sceptical
JustVenci 3y ago
Absolutely. That feminist bs makes us look as if we really are privileged and so fragile that we would commit suicide because we can not share our fefes. That just neglects that men face way more serious problems than just not being able to be show emotions. And THOSE problems lead to suicide, not simply not being able to cry. It's really insulting.
KOTS44 3y ago
Dude its sarcasm
KOTS44 3y ago
Can you seriously not tell it's sarcasm?
Dunkolunko 3y ago
I don't believe it is. I could be wrong but based on my knowledge of Josh Thomas I don't think so.
N19864 3y ago
The guy is a confused feminist thinking he's an MRA. We have ton of these here. Trying to blur the lines between MRA agenda and others. We aren't women, we do not express our emotions in the same way as them.
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As to expressing our feelings, tell that to the guys who beg and cry to see their own children. Or those who are seeing therapists and need help after having their lives destroyed by false accusation.
​
A Short Rant About Men and Emotions
pyschoandie 3y ago
U have a point many trans men go on T n den say " i don't cry as much or cant at all", men just deal with emotions differently
chipperchops 3y ago
He sounds like he's a men's liberationist, not a wannabe mra?
The mens lib explanation for child custody is that it's because due to ideas about masculinity, men are compelled to work more and to leave more childcare to their wives. Less involvement is often the reason cited for not getting custody. However underlaying this is both implicit and blatant judicial enforcement of gender roles. This is all reasoned without the need for the concept of gynocracy or an oppressed group.
I may be biased as my father got custody, and my boyfriend was raped, but no one believed him. Yet I still feel for people who are falsely prosecuted.
[deleted] 3y ago
The middle tiles are purposely flippant. This dudes a comedian with a deadpan style of humour.
N19864 3y ago
u/Dunkolunko linked the video. He appears to mean what he said.
​
Josh Thomas: https://youtu.be/zZuL\_2hUaoI
N19864 3y ago
Now you mention it, it does read like sarcasm. The ending was extremely flippant. Sad, that I was able to see it as a feminist dialogue.chipperchops 3y ago
Feminist literature emphasizes that both men and women are equally hurt by the patriarchy.
I think the victim vs. oppressor narrative is dominant because people don't fucking read. Your reaction is totally valid though because it's the reality of social media feminism. Their misinterpretation is really fucking us over, tearing people apart, especially since it won out.
Socialism, racism, colonialism... the same shit.
Dunkolunko 3y ago
No it does not. It states that "Patriarchy hurts men too" but it is always clearly posited as harming women more. It's a system created by men to give men advantage men over women. Show me one source in mainstream feminist literature that claims patriarchy is not that and that it harms men and women equally. Bonus points if it doesn't put the blame squarely on men and actually has coherent logic behind it.
Air_to_the_Thrown 3y ago
Yeah I think the elites must have been happy to see the "patriarchy" thing show up like 'good, now they'll squabble over that for fifty years and not recognize the true and abhorrent oppression we put them through each and every day'
Some of us have advantages from birth, yes. Some of us deal with a quiet, kinder oppression aimed at making us comfy and unquestioning. But if you have any chance of reading this chunk of text right now there's no doubt that you are heavily oppressed in some way, whether you recognize it or not. Oppression is blatantly wrong no matter who commits it upon whomever else.
cerkie2 3y ago
Feminists dont think that the patriarchy benefits all men, most see that gender inequality and gender norms oppress both men and women. Like isnt the whole point of toxic masculinity that it mostly effects men? It crushes them into man shaped boxes where emotions are considered feminine and therefore shameful.
novhaku 3y ago
No. "Not cring" is a choice. Not made because of "masculinity", but because it's the only rational choice to make in a biased society. Shaem is the least of a man's worries when it comes to this.
cerkie2 3y ago
Im sorry i dont understand
novhaku 3y ago
"Toxic masculinity" isn't a thing, and patriarchy isn't a thing. Men aren't "put into men shaped boxes where they don't have the right to cry". They decide for themselves that they will not cry as a rational choice to protect themselves. Because while a man using a woman's insecurities against her is emotional abuse and manipulation, which serves as a deterrent, against a man it's seen as something absolutely fair to do.
Men aren't put "into boxes". They're willingly putting themselves into boxes because they know that if they don't, any emotion they talk about is a gun pointed at them. And since this kind of abusive behaviour isn't taken seriously by the law, there is no deterrent, and people, particularly women in relationships since it's where the display is the most obvious, the one spending all of her time with you usually being the one having the most dirt about you, have an easier time doing it and finding it normal since it's not punished; neither socially nor legally.
"Toxic masculinity" is a GREAT thing. Change how people behave and men will open up by themselves.The "patriarchy" is an extremely convenient excuse to avoid looking at one's own flaws when one doesn't even notice them. Men don't show feelings because women tend to weaponize them. And feminism is a living proof of this since they don't even bother hiding it.
"Toxic masculinity" is a choice, or rather, a rational choice that is the only rational one to make, and a protection because others, particularly women in this context, want to keep the privilege of having the right to act like an ass and use your weaknesses against you when they get angry. So it's way more convenient to blame it on an imaginary "patriarchy".
No, ladies, it's not "the patriarchy", you just reap what you sow, that's about it, honestly. Asking a man to open up when they are a pretty much a free target that will never gets the same amount of sympathy as a woman (many thanks to the women-are-wonderful effect for this), PARTICULARLY from the ones crying about pseudo-"toxic masculinity" and "the patriarchy", is just delusional. Men are quite able to be "in touch" with their feelings and even talk about them if it's their thing (and if it's not and it's a choice, it's not a problem, just like you don't force an introvert to be an extrovert) but they don't do it if it carries too many risks because society is biased when it comes to what is acceptable to use as a weapon and what psychological abuse is.
cerkie2 3y ago
They willingly put themselves into boxes because they are forced to. Right.
novhaku 3y ago
That's called a rational choice. If I'm talking to an NPD, I'm not going to disclose him my full life story just so that he can use it. Gender roles aren't relevant. The law being biased is relevant. But men definitely musn't open up as long as it's not used against them anymore. And that'es everything but a "man" problem. Against, this so-called "toxic masculinity" is a rational choice and shouldn't be fixed by men opening up, which just makes things worse.
cerkie2 3y ago
You’re literally describing toxic masculinity, yes of course we have to address societal perceptions of masculinity before we can ask men to make themselves vulnerable. Toxic masculinity isnt a thing that men do, its a thing thats done to men.
Honestly dude you kind of get it all, you just have a skewed perspective of what toxic masculinity and patriarchy means but you’re describing them down to a tee.
novhaku 3y ago
Seems like you're the one not understanding "toxic masculinity" to me?. Toxic masculinity assumes that the problem is men adhering to "traditional gender roles". Nothing here is about that. Traditional gender roles for men could be to talk about their problem 24/7, men still wouldn't open up here. Because it has nothing to do with gender roles, and everything to do with not giving a loaded gun to someone, gender roles or not. If anything the only thing you can make it related to is female privilege, and that's a stretch.
Toxic masculinity is heavily related to gender roles, that have nothing to do with this discussions. Look like you need to learn what toxic masculinity is if it's the same to you. The focus isn't on "men reacting", it's on gender roles and conformity, not safety. Toxic masculinity = "acting in a traditionally masculine way because of the expectations of others" (so yes, it's indeed "done to them" even if it's never used this way by feminist since it'd be the same as saying that TM is women's fault first and foremost). Which has nothing to do with adopting a position of stoicism as a defense mechanism, where someone else's expectations are unrelated to the problem.
Feminists are a perfect example to explain the difference, constantly complaining about TM, so you'd think you can be open around them since they don't care about gender roles. But you shouldn't, since asking for this doesn't mean that you're safe and you will not use what you say against them.
So nope. I'm not describing T, sorry, I've already seen this little game done to another guy, and it's nonsense. You're just twisting the meaning of the word to make it fit what you want to. TM = focus on gender roles.
cerkie2 3y ago
No thats literally not what toxic masculinity is, literally just google it
[deleted] 3y ago
[removed]
EricAllonde 3y ago
Don't do it, mate. There's a way through this, you'll find it soon. Message me if you'd like to talk.
Dazee- 3y ago
There isn’t anything I’m worth. I just moved, I’m lonely. I’m still a teenager so I can’t go outside and make friends. I’m so tempted to fall into drugs. I hate my life bro. Hopefully people like you live happily, I’m not allowed to.
EricAllonde 3y ago
It's only a few years until you're legally an adult and can make all your own decisions. You can stick it out for just another few years, and things get much better then. You'll see.
Mr_Volkstaat 3y ago
Who says you can't make friends? Nobody can stop you. You can do whatever you set your mind to, have some faith in yourself bro.
And who says you're not allowed to be happy? Fuck them and what they think. If you're being told these things by your mother then just give that overbearing bitch the finger and say "Fuck you, I'm gonna make my own choices." Just make sure you make friends you can fall back upon before you give her the what-for in case she kicks you out for doing the right thing and standing up to her.
HungryBrain1 3y ago
Emotional control is a big part of our strength.
Lendari 3y ago
This fallacy is that he is blaming the victim. Saying that a suicide victim is at fault for not seeking help is lke saying that a rape victim is at fault because they dressed provocatively.
Men don't commit suicide because they can't express thair feelings. They commit suicide because they are trapped in a society that is indifferent to their feelings. This "joke" is an example of that indifference. He's literally using male victims of suicide as a punchline.
whatbeastslouches 3y ago
I don't think he's blaming the victims at all. He is saying that it is all because of a society that is indifferent to their feelings. Or not even indifferent to their feelings actually, because society does care enough to actively suppress men expressing those emotions. He's blaming the environment and cultural norms that create this problem, not the individuals trapped in it.
CaptSnap 3y ago
He is saying if men werent taught or believed that it was bad to look weak, and talk about feelings, and cry that would basically solve all their problems because they have all this patriarchy privilege.
whatbeastslouches 3y ago
Well, I understand that you're hearing it that way but he starts off with "I feel like part of the issue is ...", so he's definitely not saying this would solve all men's problems at all. And I think there's is emphasis on the idea that this is taught to men and is learned behavior. You get called out by family/friends/authority figures enough for showing emotion and 'acting weak,' eventually you internalize that and stop reaching out when you feel pain. I think people are latching on to the patriarchy comment a bit. I don't think he was being sarcastic but I do think he was using it as a way to explain part of this problem - because men are seen as having a lot of advantages in certain aspects of life (and they undeniably do), the unfortunate result of that is that areas in which they are undervalued or mistreated are not taken as serious issues by many. I definitely don't think this is the whole problem leading to higher rates of suicide in men, but I think for sure it is part of the problem, and one we can all work on addressing by being open and compassionate to other men (and all people really) in our lives. I know there are a lot of difficulties I've been through that I had a really hard time sharing with friends, and those are the times you need those friends the most.
CaptSnap 3y ago
Possibly. Heres a counter-hypothesis:
Men learn...about the age he is talking about here..that nobody gives a shit about them. Sharing a problem only makes you a burden. Society may put up with that with women, but men that become burdens can fuck themselves. The weak die alone and on the streets. Theres no compassion and theres damn sure no safety net.
That explains why so many men are homeless, incarcerated, uneducated, etc. In fact by nearly every sociological data we gather men lag behind women, is that not the case? Whats the advantage you speak of? What institution favors men over women? (its not education, criminal justice, education, healthcare)
oh I see. Well let me rephrase.... do you think men lagging behind women on nearly every metric and still being thought of as undeniably advantaged would have a chilling effect on society looking to help men?
to wit, are you not part of the "result of that is that areas in which they are undervalued or mistreated are not taken as serious issues by many."
If your friends are precariously perched in their lives as well, how much help can they reasonably extend? If society did a better job looking after men such that they could afford to help and did not, that would be one thing. But if your peers (and statistics back this up) are just hanging by a thread themselves can you really expect them to be able to carry much mroe weight? just a hypothesis
whatbeastslouches 3y ago
For the first point, I feel as though we are saying the same thing in different ways. Maybe I'm mistaken, but it seems we agree that men learn from a young age that showing weakness (ie becoming a burden) is taboo, and this causes men to accept a reality in which they feel they are alone, But this is something we can change, as it is based on the actions of individuals. If you embrace a man sharing a problem, become a part of his safety net (in whatever capacity you can), you are helping.
Certainly men are disproportionately homeless, incarcerated, maybe uneducated (depending which part of the world you're talking about of course), but to suggest they have no advantages is a little disingenuous. To start: https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/women/reports/2018/11/20/461273/womens-leadership-gap-2/ https://www.representwomen.org/current-women-representation#us_overview Again I think this points to the split pointed out in the original post, that men are simultaneously privileged in our society in certain aspects while deeply disadvantaged in others, and that privilege keeps people from talking about the disadvantage. If you're doing well as a man, there are biases in place that will help you do even better. But if you fall of the rails, the support network is lacking for men more than women.
For the last point, I think it is important to remember that 'society' is just all of us. It is lots and lots of little actions people make, including the ones we ourselves decide to make. In my experience there isn't actually a lot of extension necessary on the part of someone you reach out to. Sometimes it's just an ear to listen, a meal to share, or a couch to crash on. I've been on both sides. We can say that 'society should do a better job looking after men,' but again that society is us. That is our responsibility as friends, family, community members (though I don't want to suggest that the need for good mental health care, homeless care, etc is not also an important part of the solution). Yes, there are people overextended who can not be expected to help more, but that is not everyone. I think this gets back to the original issue, we as men have a hard time being that person needing to be helped, we expect to always be the one helping. Some of us can help, some of us need help, it's okay to need it at the moment. You can pay it forward later. And women can be a great help and allies in this as well. Many have been in my life.
Anyways I hope I'm not coming off as combative, because I really do appreciate the conversation. I think it's important.
novhaku 3y ago
It's not "a taboo". It's something used against them because for all their "privileges", it's fair to attack a man on anything and you will not be considered manipulative for using his mental state against him. Which is ironically related to the female privilege of using this.
Society is a problem because abuse towards men isn't recognized. Humans learn through punishment. If something has no deterrent, people will do it more often. That's it.
Men don't "have an hard time being the person that has to be helped". Men have an hard time talking about it because you don't give a gun to a person, or a society for that matter, willing to shoot you with it down the line and the one shooting will not be punished for it (in fact it'll be seen as "empowerment" if the shooter is a woman). Again, that's victim-blaming. The reason men don't talk about it isn't because "gender norms" or whatever else. It's because you learn extremely early that there are no rules stopping others from using what you'll say and you'll get no sympathy, even when it comes to the law. You knowing good people doesn't change this. Men not opening up isn't "gender roles", it's a rational choice that has a point and works in most situations, because men are free target and there's no deterrent stopping you from shooting at them. Society is uniform, as in, the law is uniform. And the law changes how people react and behave. And most importantly, how people can change, because even the most caring person can become a jerk if it's not punished.
whatbeastslouches 3y ago
also want to add real quick that the times I did finally reach out to my friends and share with them the things I have struggled with, they were very understanding and receptive. Mostly I just wanted them to understand why I was acting the way I was sometimes. And in the end it strengthened our friendship.
CaptSnap 3y ago
I feel its more likely to be effective when society treats men as though they have intrinsic value instead of being intrinsically dangerous/undesirable until they prove they have something to provide.
What point are you trying to make here?
That because women do not need to sacrifice everything for their careers that men are privileged to be able to do so?
Men are 92% of workplace fatalities. Men commute almost twice as far in my country (and are willing to commute further in nearly every countyr). Men work more overtime. Men take less time off. Men use less personal time.
Why do they do these things? and why is that a privilege?
Or is it a privilege to be born a gender where that isnt necessary? Would you prefer a job that was an order of magnitude less likely to kill you on the job, commute less, work less overtime, get more time off, and get more personal time and all it cost you was what 8% less or whatever the wage gap is? I mean come on. I think actually 20 year old women are outearning men. I know they are preferred in hiring 2:1 in my field. That must be nice.
When women run for office they are more likely elected. So why dont they run?
Because they dont want to.
But back to your point...so why do men want to do those things and women not? Does higher status/earning potential do more for women or for men? Why then is it a privilege that men have to sacrifice to seek it out?
(A job isnt a privilege is it? Isnt the real privilege being able to hire someone to work for you? I know which Id rather do)
Id like to find some better examples of privilege first. Some 1% of guys climb out on top by sacrificing their lives and all of us are privileged because of it? Are they using their newfound power and wealth to make life better for men, or for women? Does Biden have a whole page about all the pandering he is going to do for men or for women? Then how/why are men privileged if he gets elected and strips college men of due process?
I think this is your real point, after all the privilege thing I dont really agree with. Maybe people dont talk about the disadvantage because they truely dont care and they wrap their apathy in a cloak of "well men are privileged anyway". It doesnt matter whether its true or not (and youve yet to find me one thats true for most men).
I feel like this is a chicken and the egg. Which came first, the biases.....or the stereotype that men are some degree of competent because they have no other choice because no one is going to step in and bail them out. The lack of a safety net has to have some effect right?
is it a privilege that to survive you have to hold yourself up higher and sacrifice more?
or is it a privilege that you dont have to because you know someone or some institution will take you in?
I agree with your last paragraph. There are those that work against us. There is an ideology that teaches that its ok to hate men because of punching up on a ladder crap. That men are the root of all evil. That men have original sin. That men do all the terrible things in the world. So you see alot of hate towards men. I feel this causes men to be even more closed-off and with good reason.
whatbeastslouches 3y ago
Again, you're treating 'society' as a uniform behemoth. I'm not sure what concrete actions you think 'society' should take. There are many people and groups pushing for the very idea that you mention, that men have intrinsic worth and are not inherently threats. There are people pushing for better mental health care and homeless care. These groups are also a part of society, we join in and help push that conversation forward, as well as taking concrete actions in our own lives with people we're close to. That's how societal change happens. Hell this subreddit alone is a part of that, fostering conversations that were not happening 10, 20, or 30 years ago.
So it seems you have an assumption here that these men are getting ahead because they are 'sacrificing everything for their careers,' because they work more overtime and take less PTO. But people don't generally get promoted based on OT and PTO, they are promoted based on perceived qualification for the role, which often means ability to lead and manage others. Actually in many companies (including my own, which is a big boring corporate company), excessive OT can be looked at negatively and is generally discouraged. Just one example from the linked article: "In medicine, they represent 40 percent of all physicians and surgeons but only 16 percent of permanent medical school deans." That's a pretty steep discrepancy, and I don't think anyone would suggest being a doctor is less taxing than being a dean. I think the idea that women are less dedicated to their jobs is a false one. [This link] (https://www.politico.com/interactives/2017/women-rule-politics-graphic/) is more to your next point, but there is a graphic near the bottom that shows that the percentage of male and female college students who said that being very successful at work and earning a lot of money was important in their future was equal.
I'll refer to the above link for plenty of issues relating to why women don't run, including pointing out that data shows that in highschool participation is equal while the gap starts to appear in college, suggesting this is learned behavior from interacting with the world and people around them. But here's one from the article you linked: "Men, however, are 15 percent more likely to be recruited to run, Ms. Lawless and Mr. Fox found." And "I have never ever had a male potential candidate say to me that he wasn’t ready, that he didn’t feel prepared enough,” she said. “Over and over again, I have had potential female candidates say to me that they just don’t feel they’re quite ready, that they need more experience.” Women also have disadvantages. "One often-cited study found that when men and women performed equally on a science test, women thought they performed worse, and were less likely to enter a science competition as a result."
We are hardly talking about the one percent. We are talking about every management position everywhere%20of%20managers%20in%202018.&text=In%202018%2C%20White%20women%20held,all%20management%20positions%20at%2032.6%25.) It simply gets more and more unbalanced the higher up you go.
Kind of contradicting your 1% comment, since those are the jobs that give you that privilege and are few and far between. But men are more able to do that. Again from the linked article: "In the legal profession, they are 45 percent of associates but only 22.7 percent of partners and 19 percent of equity partners." Not sure how many lawyers you know, but associates do all the work and partner, especially equity partner, is generally pretty cushy.
Not sure what you're referring to here. Looking at that page 'pandering' to women, almost all of it is stuff that benefits everyone, and only helps women more because of their relative disadvantage (like raising the minimum wage because women make up the majority of minimum wage workers). Just curious, what do you think a platform focused on men's issues would look like? The way I see it a lot of women's issues are more issues of institutional discrimination, and more readily addressed by government. The men's issues you've been pointing out seem to me to be much more problems of societal pressures and expectations, which is not easily addressed through government/law.
Yes, there are hateful misandrists in the world. Yes, they can be vocal. But they are by far in the minority. Just look at the responses to that tweet and you can see that. There are also groups like this, this, and this in the world. In my experience those on the side of growth and understanding far outnumber the hateful minority, but no doubt there is still a lot of work to do. And if you focus too much on that hateful minority, that is all you see and that unfortunately just causes you to be more closed-off.
CaptSnap 3y ago
yeah alot of bold anonymous points where even here youre looked at as women-hating incels. You know we're a hate group right? or were at one time.
I think what I said was:
so my point would have been men excel because they are more willing to sacrifice their lives, their commutes, their work-life balance, and their time.
In your company do they promote managers who refuse to commute, refuse to sacrifice their family time, and take alot of time off? Give me a break.
What does dedication look like to you? Besides fatalities, commute time, willingness to sign up for overtime, and taking less leave? source for last two like if you could measure it in action...what are some metrics you would use since you dont like mine.
Are you vetting your sources or are you unaware of how biased your sources are?
But even your own source says this:
What if men and women have different interests? If this was the case then you would expect women to also feel inhibited in fields they prefer as well. But this is not the case:
So all that unsubstantiated hand-wringing about female dominated early childhood lacking encouragement for young girls and second guessing themselves about leadership doesnt seem to apply when its a field women enjoy? How do you parse that?
Your source is literally a nonprofit whose sole existence is to insure women get into management.
WHy is this problematic? If you go to their source for the United States its this page
Women are 47% of the workforce but according to the data what percent are they of the larger "Management, professional, and related occupations"?
They are 52% (there are almost more of them in the broad category of cushy jobs than the one subcategory)
Service Occupations 58%
Sales 60%
Natural resources, construction, and maintenance occupations 5% (this is what a big discrepancy looks like)
Production, transportation, and material moving occupations 23%
Weird how underrepresented women are in shitty jobs huh? It must be all that male privilege that they take all the really hard back-breaking dangerous jobs.
Of course 75% of HR managers are women. But thats not a problem is it? Talk about an in-house advantage.
Social managers, health managers, education managers....all 70%... isnt that odd? Fields that women prefer have women leading in them.
But yeah the real glaring discrepancy is only 40% of managers are women. Not that the majority of society's shitty jobs are men.
Im glad youre aware that some jobs are cushier than others but I dont know if this specific example is going to show that men hold the majority of cushy jobs.
But even here...lawyers are still hired by others right?
im referring to Joe Biden, the author of the Dear Colleague letter and VAWA, outright saying he would re-strip college men of due process Obama/Biden stripped due process, Trump/Devos put them back, Biden has vowed to take them away again.
relative disadvantage... you mean the 40% of managers are women instead of 47%? Or do you have some more pressing issue?
But this is a fair point, his website has changed since I was on it last and its a little more tempered. Instead Ill take specific umbrage with this (as well as the Title IX due process):
Vawa created the feminist-ideology created intimate partner batterer program The Duluth Model its the most widely promulgated program in the world. It outright says men cant be victims, only perpetrators..that women cant be perpetrators only victims of patriarchy. It spearheaded the primary aggressor arrest policy where no matter who is being battered, the man is arrested.
Source for all this
Thats what VAWA's bias looks like.
End sentencing disparity (this is an institutional bias). Men receive 63% longer sentences.
Actually end all the disparity in the criminal justice system... men are more likely to be arrested, more likely to be charged, etc.
End police killing men (institutional bias) men are killed 30X police than women
End for profit prisons
In Texas prisons dont even treat male prisoners as human beings. It took a federal court to require them to give potable drinking water (this was in 2010). Thats a big one.
End the educational bias against boys. (This is an institutional bias.) Female teachers give boys harsher grades for the same work than their girl peers. Boys are more likely to be punished and are punished more harshly. Boys are more likely to be expelled and suspended (particularly boys of color).
Insure due process for men in college. (This is an institutional bias)
Create a whitehouse councile for men and boys like the one for women and girls.
Make VAWA gender neutral and drop primary aggressor policy (institutional bias)
Redraft the intimate partner and rape surveys so they include a definition that does not by definition exclude male victims to give the appearance that men are exclusively perpetrators and women are exclusively victims. (this is institutional bias)
Stop giving grants to women-only need based organizations especially in areas where the majority of victims are men. (this is institutional bias).
Stop giving foreign aid to institutions that flat refuse to give food aid to men or demand a more egalitarian approach. (this is the UN and the WHO) (this is institutional bias)
Enshrine the legal rights of men with presumption of shared-parenting.
End the legal right that underaged boys victimized of rape can be forced to pay child support.
Anyways thats just off the top of my head.
whatbeastslouches 3y ago
I will not give you a break. Refusal to commute is a ridiculous statement. If someone refuses to commute they do not work there, therefore they cannot be promoted. And yes, in my company people who look after their families and maintain good work life balances, and people who use their PTO, are in fact promoted. They actually focus on productivity and efficiency, rather than blind loyalty. I think my company is pretty good, I recognize there a lot of others out there with far more toxic environments.
I don't know, maybe actual productivity? Client satisfaction? Subordinate satisfaction and productivity? Quantitative results like sales or project performance? You have this big assumption underlying everything that men have this unhealthy relationship with work because they feel like they have to succeed, feel like there is no support network if they fail. Undoubtedly that's part of it, but I can think of another equally plausible explanation. Men have unhealthy relationships with work because they use work to fill internal voids. Just anecdotally I think we all probably know people (men and women) addicted to work because it keeps them from facing deficiencies in other parts of their lives. This doesn't necessarily make them better employees, and definitely does not make them better managers.
You kind of ignored the point and the source and the data. In highschool there is no difference, which suggest that there is no inherent, intrinsic gender difference determining interest in politics. Women are relegated to school boards because of the general societal perception that that is a correct atmosphere for women. You accept that men face immense societal pressures, why can't you accept that women do to? These pressures are different, but just maybe they harm women equally in ways different than men are harmed. Much of what I've linked to and pointed out points to this harm. I'll refer back to the science test quote from before which you tellingly did not feel was worth response.
Or, to put it differently, one that is deemed acceptable for them to participate in and the only one in which they are actively encouraged to participate, unlike men.
Uhhhh these are not shitty jobs. Construction in particular is well paying, generally in demand, and rewarding. I've worked construction, and construction workers in general are some of the happiest people I've been around. Natural resource jobs are some of the highest paying jobs that doesn't require a lot of education.
But even then, is the representation proportional? I actually don't know, I'll have to dig a little more into this. But that is the far more important question.
There's like at least twenty other examples in that link. I'm sorry, but men hold the majority of cushy jobs. The data is there.
I mean.... yeah? What job are you thinking of that is absolutely not beholden to any client or user? Successful law firms can pick and choose what clients they want to take on. Partners sit back and let the associates do the work. Not sure what your idea of a cushier job is.
Looked into this a bit since I was not previously aware of the issue. I'm not a legal expert, but I think the justices on the supreme court probably are. And they seem to unanimously disagree with you
I had not previously heard of the Duluth Model. I looked into and I agree that is fucked up. This is something that should be addressed. To me this is a valid case where men are victimized and not taken seriousouly, which is a serious problem. I did search for anything tying VAWA to the Duluth Model, and found nothing though. If you have a source I would be interested.
I really appreciate the list at the end actually. There's a lot there for me to think about. Many of these things are actively being pushed for, ie end for profit prisons, end police violence against men, treat male prisoners as human beings. Would need some kind of reference or citation for this
and this
They may have special programs dedicated to women and children (especially in areas where imbalances are incredibly bad, and there's no question those exist), but that is not the same as an organization refusing to give food to and support to men if there are other programs available to men.
Agree this is important. There has been a lot of progress in recent years and a lot of people pushing for this actually Not a complete success obviously but the movement is pretty young, and a lot of progress has been made already.
Also a serious problem, and something I agree needs to be addressed.
I guess I want to say that while I do appreciate this conversation, and I feel like I've learned a lot from it, I don't get the feeling that you are at all interested in hearing any different viewpoints, and are completely cemented in your worldview based on the limited and specific things you choose to focus on. I sense a lot of bitterness, which is understandable but not helpful. I'll do my best to keep the conversation moving. Though we're way off course from where we started all of this has been valuable to me. I just feel like you're coming from a place of 'no one cares about men'. And that's not true. You care about men. I care about men. I wouldn't have invested the time I have into this conversation if I didn't. The organizations I shared at the end of my last post care about men. There are people who care, not the majority, not yet, but people nonetheless. I hope you have some people who care in your life and who you feel you can share things with, but I get the feeling that may not be the case. So probably this is going to be blown off or even criticized, but if you ever do want someone to talk to feel free to message me. I check reddit pretty regularly, though I'm usually focused on less political/social subreddits.
WinTheDell 3y ago
Omfg this is such a feminist propagated cartoon of why men kill themselves. Even CALM in the UK, a men’s anti suicide charity, forwards this shit as the answer for why men kill themselves.
The premise: “If men were more emotionally intelligent, like women, then they wouldn’t kill themselves.”
-Most men who kill themselves have already sought out treatment and talking therapies. Men who talk about their problems aren’t necessarily saved from them. -this attitude shifts all the blame onto the suicide victim. “If only he’d talked about his problems.” It ignores the fact that men are having shit done to them and that some men are made to feel utterly worthless by society. “Oh you can’t see your kids and you’re of more financial value to your family dead than alive, if only you’d talk about that it would all be fixed.”
You can’t completely demean men and make them feel worthless and then act all shocked when they start tipping themselves. Society needs to find a route to incorporating men into a post-industrial society where they can actually feel useful and not a burden.
The men that I know that have gone that way has been because they feel burdensome, and basically every suicide note at least touches upon this emotion.
novhaku 3y ago
Right. I have an hard time understanding hhow one can defend this victim-blaming nonsense while thinking they're "progressive" or "fair" or "non-sexist" or whatever. Actually when it comes to men, talking about your problem often make things worse, because while there is a societal stigma against using a woman's words and emotions against her (which is called being manipulative by using a woman's depression, or whatever else) there is none of this when it comes to men. It's the opposite, shooting at them using this is fair.
"Opening up" make things WORSE and that's not th part that needs to be fixed. It'll fix itself quite easily if you fix everything else around it. Which means efforts from others... Including women. I think I've never been as suicidal as I was when I was "opening up", because you want to be honest and yet every you say can and will be used against you, adding a TON of pressure to your social relationships in order to avoid people becoming angry and doing it.
Opening up? Yeah, sure, why not. When you'll fix yourself as well. Not before. Been here, done that, got the t-shirt.
WinTheDell 3y ago
I think opening up is a good thing, but this idea that opening up TO ABSOLUTELY EVERYONE YOU KNOW will fix things is ridiculous, making things worse and causing a lot of harm.
I’m a big fan of finding a good therapist. They’re hard to find but they actually know what they’re doing and your relationship isn’t going to change because of the things you say to them. Maybe if you’ve got a really good mate and your relationship is orientated that way, you can open up quite freely, but bollocks to the “just talk to everyone about your feelings” brigade.
Glad you saw through it.
novhaku 3y ago
Yep. The problem isn't "men should open up" or "men shouldn't open up". It's that you need to be aware that if someone use it to ruin your life, you will not have the luxury of it being called abuse. So be careful about it even if you trust the person and more importantly about who you trust.
Although I dislike therapists (not helped by the fact that psychology is a COMPLETE joke in my country; psychology is a great thing that is extremely interesting to study, but the people practicing it and the cultural bias here make it trash; a ton of professional still thinking that autism still caused by parents beating their kids, anyone?), yes, at least in this situation you have less chances of it being used against you afterward. Still not keen on people wanting EVERYONE to talk about their feelings even if it's not their thing though, that' stupid. You should not feel presure to do it if you don't need it. but if you want to and have no outlet, a (GOOD, big emphasis on the GOOD) therapist is a good option.
Yes, some friends can be reliable when it comes to this. As I often say when talking about domestic abuse and men being too "ashamed" to talk about it, more often than not, a man WILL open up. But he needs to be sure that it's not going to bite him back in the ass even indirectly. Like, say, telling a friend you're abused by your wife, the friend tell it to his wife, now the whole town knows it, so the wife hears it too and enjoy your domestic violence accusation as a revenge. Men DO talk about their feelings - but they need to feel completely SAFE in order to do it so it depends a lot of the context. If they don't feel safe, they don't do it. It's not about gender roles or "not opening up" or masculinity. We're blaming gender roles to avoid recognizing that there is a reason they don't feel safe doing it, and it's not gender roles.
This reeks of "trying to put the blame on something in order to avoid seeing the flaws in everything else".
DigitalisEdible 3y ago
It’s a feminist assertion than men need to cry more. Tired of hearing about it. The subtext is basically saying men need to be more like women to be better humans.
We really need to look at this from another angle. Men are not killing themselves because they feel society has told them they can’t cry. This isn’t going to save anybody. Men kill themselves because society doesn’t value them and sees them only as an object to extract work and money out of, because nobody gives a fuck about men’s problems and there are no real solutions at the moment. They kill themselves because they work 80 hours a week to feed their family yet still get nagged at for not doing chores at home. Because they get trapped in a marriage where they can’t escape without losing everything they’ve worked their entire life for. Because they’re told they’re privileged and yet still suffer in a shitty job, still struggle to advance and be the person everyone expects them to be.
You’ve just been accused of sexual harrassment because your hand accidentally brushed up against a woman’s ass as you were trying to pass by her at work. It was an accident but she reported it, now you’ve lost your job, your wife leaves you and takes the kids. She gets half your stuff and you’re told to pay child support for the next 15 years or you’ll go to prison.
“Maybe you should try crying, it works for women.”
Just fuck off with this advice. I’d end up with a gun in my mouth too.
Mr_Volkstaat 3y ago
Truer words cannot be spoken.
Nicolas64pa 3y ago
You guys seem to be fucking blind or something, this dude is saying the "patriarchy" and "having it better" part in a comedic sense
KOTS44 3y ago
No dude your the blind one, it's so painfully obvious that it's sarcasm.
MBV-09-C 3y ago
https://youtu.be/zZuL_2hUaoI
Watch the video then. I don't know about you, but that sure doesn't sound like sarcasm in his voice.
KOTS44 3y ago
Ahh i take it you are not Australian because that is sarcasm at it's finest. The laughing audience is another indicator and considering josh thomas is also a comedian. British sarcasm also sounds like that.
MrsCriket 3y ago
Actually, although I’m not sure how many people are aware, men are not more likely to attempt suicide than women. In fact, women are more likely to attempt suicide [3,4]. Men have a lower rate of attempting suicide, but a higher rate of death by suicide, and this is because lethality of suicide attempts has been found to be 4.78 times higher in males than in females [5]. It seems to come from the fact that males more often use high risk methods such as hanging, jumping, use of firearms, being run over and drowning than females [3,4,6–8]. In contrast, intoxications, which are survived by more than 90% of individuals are by far the most frequently used method by females (87.5% of all female suicidal acts, but only 38.6% of male suicidal acts represent intoxications) [3]. However, even within the same method the outcome has been found to be more lethal for males. Most people who survive their suicide attempts go on to live, and don’t attempt again, but many men who attempt suicide don’t get this second chance to the lethality of the methods they chose.
This is not to minimise men who commit suicide – it’s a hugely important issue and there needs to be way more support for men suffering from mental health struggles (it’s grossly under appreciated and funded), but as a psychologist I do think it’s interesting that we continue to perpetuate this myth that suicide is a male dominated issue.
Cibis A, Mergl R, Bramesfeld A, Althaus D, Niklewski G, Schmidtke A, et al. (2012) Preference of lethal methods is not the only cause for higher suicide rates in males. J Affect Disord 136: 9–16. doi: 10. 1016/j.jad.2011.08.032 PMID: 21937122
Värnik A, Kõlves K, van der Feltz-Cornelis CM, Marusic A, Oskarsson H, Palmer A, et al. (2008) Suicide methods in Europe—a gender specific analysis of countries participating in the “European Alliance Against Depression”. J Epidemiol Community Health 62: 545–551. doi: 10.1136/jech.2007.065391 PMID: 18477754
Elnour AA, Harrison J (2008) Lethality of suicide methods. Inj Prev 14: 39–45. doi: 10.1136/ip.2007. 016246 PMID: 18245314
Ajdacic-Gross V, Weiss MG, Ring M, Hepp U, Bopp M, Gutzwiller F, et al. (2008) Methods of suicide: international suicide patterns derived from the WHO mortality database. Bull World Health Organ 86: 726–732. PMID: 18797649
Värnik A, Sisask M, Värnik P, Wu J, Kõlves K, Arensman E, et al. (2011) Drug suicide: a sex-equal cause of death in 16 European countries. BMC Public Health 11(61).
TheRikari 3y ago
THIS guy gets it.
Bluelabel 3y ago
This is Josh Thomas, Australian comedian. I'm not a big fan of his comedy but he wrote a tv series called Please Like Me and it's fucking phenomenal.
WhoIsHarlequin 3y ago
If girls were taught to stop crying then we wouldn't have feminism.
Moffat247 3y ago
It is a good point. I know the middle part is hard to deal with but I think he is just mentioning the things men dont need to worry about, the extra thoughts that may be on a womans head are not on our head, but despite that extra stress we still kill ourselves more often
I like when people talk about what it feels like to be a guy without attacking women or anything. Just a "here is a small fact please discuss" which is one of the best ways to do it. Not THE BEST WAY but you can't take it as aggressive as an excuse
mimiczx 3y ago
It's mentioned above that it was sarcastic. Which makes sense. Obviously without the sound it's harder to catch the nuances.
Caithloki 3y ago
I feel like it's more sarcastic the serious. Touching on what's always said.
Moffat247 3y ago
Oh yeah that would be a good one. I guess only the original audio could tell if tone is involved
Caithloki 3y ago
Yeah it's why I always hate pictures of something that was a video you lose a lot of the feel of it
Hamburger-Queefs 3y ago
It's funny and sad because it's true.
Max2000Warlord 3y ago
Josh Thomas is a piece of shit. Don't assume he's saying anything in good faith.
Dsb0208 3y ago
Correct me if I’m wrong but I think the suicide rate is incorrect. I thought it was women attempt suicide more often, but men die from it more. I’m not sure if that’s true though, just what I’ve heard
DaSpood 3y ago
3x more attempts for women, 3x more deaths by suicide for men.
Ignis_Vespa 3y ago
AFAIK, what you said is true, although women attempts is higher than men, the success rate of men is way higher because men use more lethal methods
Mr_Volkstaat 3y ago
Such as a bullet, a jump from a roof or bridge, etc.
kubicas 3y ago
Eh nothing will change and I accepted it. Men will always be expected to be human doings. I'm going against it myself but don't care if anything changes out there or not. A bit fatalistic attitude but that's why I'm an antinatalist and overall people disgust me because of disappointment and their untrustworthiness. Humans fully deserve extinction and death. A nature's failed phenomena.
Mr_Volkstaat 3y ago
That's because our societies are too big and complex these days, nobody has any control over their lives anymore. Smaller communities, such as tribes and rural villages, don't have this problem, or many of the other problems that urban human settlements do. I think the industrial revolution is where humankind really started to collapse.
WarOfNoise 3y ago
i like this, top to bottom, thank you for posting.
and yet, what I know i'll hear from others, especially women, is the idea that other men "need to stop" reinforcing this behavior in society.
but alas, it's getting worse, is it not?
women reinforce toxic behavior in men far more than men do via their obvious yet indirect disapproval of men who open up emotionally. women's approval and validation of men who don't and behave "toxically" sends the message that that behavior is actually attractive.
the sooner this is allowed to be acknowledged in society at large the sooner this will start to be alleviated. and i am not going to hold my breath on that one.
ptmeij 3y ago
Men showing emotions will be used by women as a sign of weakness, and determines who she will mate with. Toxic behavior is desired by women and reinforced by women. This is probably subconscious, to pick the best genes. Will it ever change? Probably not.
Neveah_Hope_Dreams 3y ago
So true! He's spitting straight facts!
SgtMajMythic 3y ago
I teared up a few times when I was talking to my ex about all the surgeries I’ve had and she immediately asked “are you crying?!” in a way that made me feel bad just for tearing up.
pilot-777 3y ago
He forgot the part were woman’s suicide attempts to male’s are 3:1 as well which proves men chose more lethal methods
CttCJim 3y ago
He looks like the U WOT M8 kid all grown up
Gay_Leo_Gang 3y ago
A lot of people here would benefit from therapy, and it shows.
Mr_Volkstaat 3y ago
And the company and sympathy of friends.
Calpernia09 3y ago
I will do my part in breaking this cycle. I encourage men and boys in my life to be open and share. To cry and show emotion.
My son will be raised exactly as my girls, with minor tweeks. Hopefully the next generation of males can overcome this
accidental_me 3y ago
Good luck. But remember that it's mostly hormones that make the difference. And it's unlikely you can change them.
Evolution has "designed" women and men for different tasks (because babies are born so helpless and so forth). To communicate by showing your emotions, like crying when sad, afraid, stressed, and so forth, is apparently advantageous for women who used to live "at home", so to speak. For men, being stoic has been advantageous because they had to face the outside world with its dangers and challenges along with other men in "combat units".
Then again, all psychological traits are on a bell curve and the curves of men and women overlap. So, it's possible that your sons show their emotions and daughters are stoic. You just have to treat them as individuals.
Calpernia09 3y ago
I appreciate the advice. I tell my kids that they didnt come with an instruction manual, so I'm doing my best
matrixislife 3y ago
Boys are not the same as girls. They have different needs, different ways of expressing those needs. We've got a a huge educational problem nowadays because boys are being taught the same as girls, in the manner that girls learn best in.
I'm not an educational expert so I can't give you any advice apart from, find out the best way to raise your sons and do that, no matter how people are teaching girls nowadays.
Calpernia09 3y ago
I def didnt speak my point well. My girls are so different from each other and my son is different than them.
I just mean in emotional matters and parenting, I give each of my kids what they need unique to them. But I teach my kids that men and women are equal but unique and thats amazing.
I can see why I'm getting comments. Thanks
matrixislife 3y ago
Yeah, I get where you're coming from, good luck with them :)
aguysomewhere 3y ago
Scipio Aemilianus cried when Carthage burned. He was a great man.
orbitaldecayed 3y ago
mmmyeah. And what would these men be crying about if everything is so peachy for them?
Isn't life just one long party for men? Got to be some flaw in the logic there.
MrAkinari 3y ago
No cause just cause some backward majority says that its not necesaarily true. Life can suck and then you die counts for everyone.
nOt-ClicK-bAiT 3y ago
/s?
gamessuck00 3y ago
Well the only part of the narrative that lands is neglect. Men are often not given a fair shake to contest things or seek reciprocity. So symbolically, men not being able to cry is accurate- we often are molded to the precept that we will not receive fairness.
Strix2031 3y ago
These comments are why MRAs are seen as reactionaries