I have a fearful-avoidant wife and over the years I’ve learnt a lot about handling it - what to do and what not to do. I’ve given advice to some other men here with FA wives and it works.
If you’re not aware of what’s going on, FA can really throw you for a loop. She’s sweet, you stroke her hair - suddenly she’s disgusted with you. She’s an utter bitch and saying horrible things that makes you want to kick her out of the house - but soon after she’s all submissive and wants to suck your dick.
That’s a classic cycle for an FA girl: you being nice which makes her mean which makes you angry which makes her nice which makes you nice, repeat.
What is Fearful-Avoidance
A person with FA has low self-esteem and high distrust of others. They realize they need and want intimacy, but when they are in a relationship that starts to get close, their fear and mistrust surfaces and they distance.
If your wife is fearful-avoidant, you will likely have seen a cycle of you being nice which makes her mean which makes you angry which makes her nice which makes you nice, repeat. She also likely reacts with disgust or distancing to signs of affection like cuddling or intimate talks.
This describes it well: https://jebkinnison.com/bad-boyfriends-the-book/fearful-avoidant/
I can also recommend this book: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Attachment-Across-Lifecourse-Brief-Introduction/dp/023029359X, it will give you a deeper understanding but it isn’t big on actionable advice. It helped my wife reading it, and it helped with how we raise our kids. If either or both of you have insecure attachment styles, for the sake of your kids read this book so you don’t pass on your dysfunction to them.
Attachment theory is one of the best researched and most well documented areas of psychology outside of pathological conditions, it isn’t just some pseudo-scientific mumbo-jumbo. Don’t confuse it with attachment parenting though, that is just some homegrown stuff (seems designed to sell books to moms seeking to justify their overprotective parenting iirc).
Make sure she is FA before taking this advice
FA girls are a special bunch - don’t make the diagnosis to cover up your own shortcomings and then proceed to fuck shit up. Secure girls won’t react well to this.
There is an excellent test for general attachment style here (this is a real psychology test based on thousands of subjects across 60+ countries) http://www.web-research-design.net/cgi-bin/crq/crq.pl
The MRP playbook is still king
MRP is still the foundation. It’s still about SMV, frame and game. She’s still a woman, and AWALT.
The way to think about FA is that 95% of the time everything is normal, but certain things will trigger abnormal behavior in her.
And don’t fall into the trap of using her FA as an excuse for your failings.
If she's not fucking you, it's because your SMV is low, period.
The limits to happiness with an FA partner
This is not a guide that will make everything rosy. That’s not an option if your wife is FA. All the literature I’ve seen suggests these people simply can’t make relationships work. With MRP tools you’re at another level and it can become good, but FA is a serious issue that won’t go away. Manage your expectations and focus on mitigation, not cure.
If marriage is hard mode, FA is nightmare mode. Not all the time, there will be plenty of good periods, but there will be absolutely awful periods.
Understanding the fearful response
When her fearful response triggers, that’s pretty simple. She is hit harder by the fear of losing you, and she’ll become more needy and try harder to get you to stay. It’s worth remembering when she’s freaking out about something - there’s a fearful response at the end of it that will pull her back.
Understanding the avoidance response
The avoidance response is more complicated. She’s still a woman, she still wants intimacy and comfort. But these very things can trigger her avoidance response. Deep inside, an FA feels there’s something unlovable or even repulsive about her, and if you ever find out her true nature you’ll leave her. This means that when she feels the level of intimacy grows, she’ll begin to panic with a bizarre fear of you discovering her true nature and being disgusted with her, and when her feelings grow stronger she’ll fear the (to her) inevitable separation will just end up hurting more.
The reaction is to push you away and reduce the intimacy. Major avoidance episodes get so bad that part of her wants out of the relationship, but the fearful response keeps her from actually ending it. She’ll try to provoke or taunt you to end it instead - saying she’ll never be able to live up to your expectations, that you might as well end it, she’ll say stuff she knows you hate or that disgusts you.
Don’t ever give her ultimatums about what she can’t say in arguments, like “if you threaten to leave again, we’re over”. When her avoidance response takes over, she wants you to end it. She can’t and won’t do it herself, but if she can goad you into it, that’s an easy out. She’ll regret it once her avoidance episode ends, but in the heat of the moment she feels differently about it.
She’ll also say the stuff you hate to hear the most, stuff that will make you disgusted with her. Your core values, she’ll belittle them, she’ll shit on whatever identity you have of being a family man. Don’t give her ammunition - don’t tell her what really gets to you or what disgusts you, don’t tell her she can’t say shit like that again, even during calm times. Opening up about these things or warning her is giving her the argument manual for the next major avoidance episode.
This is important, so I’ll say it again: during major avoidance episodes, she’ll try to ruin the relationship, she’ll try to drive you away. She’ll say anything and everything. She’ll regret it later, but you’ll have to live with what she said. Telling her what you absolutely can’t live with her saying is exactly what she’ll be yelling at you in the future.
The avoidance response also sends her hamster on overdrive, it’ll warp reality far beyond the normal hamstering and there is no talking it down.
Minimizing daily avoidance stress
Signs of affecting like cuddling, stroking her hair, intimate talks, they stress her out, so you should stop it.
Instead, be her oak. She can cuddle up to your chest, but don’t be affectionate back. Protecting her and the body language that goes with it is fine, seeking intimacy is not (by intimacy I mean the emotional kind, it’s not an euphemism for sex or flirting). Grabbing or groping her is also fine. It’s the emotional intimacy that makes her scared - it’s fine that her man is dominant, protective and sexually interested in her.
It’s like she has a hideous scar under her shirt - don’t make her fear you’re going to lift it up and look at it. Once she gets comfortable knowing you won’t probe deeper, she’ll have a much easier time cuddling up to you and showing weakness and need of comfort. If on the other hand you teach her that you’ll get affectionate when she is, she’ll refrain from it.
Even if she needs comfort, you shouldn’t try to pass comfort tests it with too much intimacy. It is much better to fail a comfort test than trigger her avoidance. Try to get a feel for what she can handle - hopefully a hug and a kind word won’t trigger it.
The best way to provide comfort is often just doing non-intimate beta. Work on the house, do something with the kids. That shows you’re there for her and the family without triggering avoidance. If she’s throwing a comfort test, it is often better to go clean something than to talk to her.
Withdrawing affection
We often recommend guys with a misbehaving wife to withdraw affection but continue owning his shit. The problem with an FA wife is that not showing her any attention but still doing stuff around the house and with the kids is probably the state she is most comfortable in. In MRP this may be the default OI behavior for her not living up to your standards, and women without attachment issues will become slightly uncomfortable and seek to regain some attention, but an FA wife will not do that. To correct her behavior you will have to "check out".
You emotionally check out of the relationship for a period. Leave the house. Be selfish. Shift chores you'd do unto her. Hog the TV and watch stuff she doesn't like. You need to do this more often and for smaller things than secure girls. Make her earn her way back in your good favor. And don't be afraid to ramp it up, go really cold and aloof - at this point the other end of her attachment issues begin to work in your favor. The fearful response kicks in and she will freak out more than women without attachment issues and be willing to do more to get back in your favor. As always be careful of not seeming butthurt since that isn't sexy, shoot for something more along the lines of her not living up to your expectations, so why does it matter what she wants. Down the line I had to stay disappointed for longer even as she tried to earn her way back in, because she seemed to get the idea she could be a bitch and then just fuck me when she wanted me back. If you’re new to MRP, reward good behavior right away, but you may have to change tactics later to beat her girl game.
The curse of high alpha and being happy
Surprisingly, the real problem with an FA wife shows when you’re further in the process, when your alpha is high and she’s being submissive. At this point, she’s more attracted to you and loves you more. For someone with FA, that just means the stakes are that much higher for when you finally “figure her out and dump her”. It’s more avoidance stress.
Submissiveness is a very intimate experience, again an avoidance trigger.
You’re happy with your sweet, submissive and kinky wife - but for an FA that triggers feelings of suspicion and mistrust. They deeply believe there is something wrong with them and you being happy with her makes her fear that you’ll soon figure out her true nature and it ends.
I have seen a clear pattern that whenever I felt that life with her was really good, a major avoidance episode was coming. We’re talking her breaking stuff, assaulting me, threatening to take the kids away, saying the vilest shit you can imagine.
This is by far the worst problem with FAs. All the other stuff is manageable, but that your relationship being really good is in itself what breaks it, how do you get around that?
I tried being less alpha for a period, and while that saw a real reduction in avoidance behavior, I couldn’t live with it. It felt fake, and I missed the high levels of submissiveness and kinkyness from her.
The solution is to never be content. In this case, good is the enemy of perfect, and even of good itself. There’s no standing still, no enjoying what you’ve achieved from her, with her. Always be dominating and demanding. Expect more from her. When she gets everything you asked for right, expect more.
She will try to fuck everything up the second you’re happy with what you have. It’s not that you have to be grumpy all the time. Think more of it like the entrepreneur that loves what he’s doing, loves his business and leads his employees well and celebrates success, but he’s always fucking pushing for more from everyone around him. Don’t settle for less.
If you’re happy and content, you’re seconds from disaster.
Overcoming sexual inhibition
FA girls have low self esteem - they don’t think they’re good enough, and they don’t trust that people will react well to what they do.
This means major inhibition. Even when they’re turned on, they’ll hide their feelings and control their expression. Like insecure teenagers make weird faces when their picture is taken (better goof off instead of taking the risk trying to look pretty), they’ll do the equivalent in bed and be purposefully silly or awkward. It’s incredibly hard to get them to loosen up. The problem is rarely any physical boundaries, they’ll be up for trying most stuff. The problem is usually all the emotional stuff like eye contact, moaning, sexy body language.
On top of those inhibitions, there are the classic FA insecurities: what if she tries her best and that isn’t enough for you, and the fear of deep emotional connection in itself.
The basis of all of this is still your SMV: alpha, frame, game, looks. Don’t try to force shit you don’t have the SMV to back up.
But you will need to push her more than other girls. You need to have talks with her, explain exactly what you expect. You need to be dominant with her. You need to not accept less than her best performance.
Start with one thing, tell her exactly how you want her to do that thing. If she doesn't, tell her again - if she messes it up (she'll do that on purpose), correct it. When she doesn't comply, put on your pants an leave. Check out, and be frank that you're not interested in someone not willing to put in effort to please you.
Repeat with the next thing. We're talking small stuff, like tongue action during BJs is one thing, lots of saliva is another, etc.
Increasing alpha and SMV only got my wife from "low libido" to horny but very inhibited. Then I had to wear down each of her inhibitions, now she'll talk technique while sucking dick, she licks my nipples while riding me, etc.
Being OI about it and hoping it'll get better just by having high SMV will get you nowhere or at best it improves so slowly you hardly notice, you'll just be disappointed with her performance forever. Push it and push hard, one thing at a time. There's a lot to go through, it'll take time even if you go at it, so might as well get started once you have the SMV for it.
The toughest part is when sex is only really good and you have to put on your pants and walk out because you want it to be super awesome. It’s hard to walk out on good sex, but if you don’t it is not likely to get better no matter how much you increase your SMV. You’re dealing with strong fears and inhibitions, it takes some pushing to get her out of her comfort zone.
The good news is, if you put in the effort it works. She can get comfortable doing new stuff and learn to approach it with enthusiasm and pride.
Dealing with avoidance episodes
Her avoidance is triggered badly, and she’s being an utter bitch, trying to taunt you to end it. What do you do?
Her hamster goes into overdrive, the stuff she’ll imagine is like something from a paranoid schizophrenic. If you STFU, she’ll take it to mean she’s right. If you A&A it, she’ll take it literally. You have to counter any unreasonable accusations - once. It might be DEERing, but if you don’t you’ll have to deal with a deeply rooted delusion.
After that, the usual shit testing methods apply, just be careful with the A&A as she takes it literally, and remember what I said about avoiding ultimatums.
Don’t give any ground, and under no circumstance go for comfort and affection - that just makes it worse, the real problem here is her avoidance, not what she’s accusing you of, including that you don’t love her. Correct her once, matter of factly, then pressure flip or whatever. Don’t fall into the trap of showing affection during an avoidance episode.
Another thing I’ve found works well is just being laid back about it and saying she’s so predictable - “we got close, so you freaked out, and tomorrow you’ll be all sweet trying to make it up to me. Just like last time. It’s not like what you’re feeling now is relevant.”
If she’s on her way to go really off the deep end, don’t hold your temper back. Just go full caveman angry. If she’s going there, it is better for you to go off early, otherwise her shit just keeps getting meaner and meaner until she crosses a hard boundary. And trust me, her crossing hard boundaries is not fun, you both have to live with what was said and some shit just erodes your connection. Put a stop to it early, get angry and/or leave.
The bad episodes usually take 1-3 days for me. In the end, she comes to her senses by you yanking on the fearful chain, it’s not until she fears she’s losing you she’ll back down. One way or the other, that’s where you end up so even though she’ll act like the sky is falling and your marriage is over for sure, it’s just warm air. Don’t worry, her fearful response yanks her back in.
And the fearful response is strong, she’ll do exactly what you like. It’s a good time to work on her inhibitions.
Dread and jealousy
FAs are very mistrusting and prone to jealousy. Dread still has its place, but go up the dread scale slower than you normally would. Less will do more for you, and too much will set off a much worse reaction.
When combined with avoidance, jealousy will kick into absolute overdrive and reach pathological levels. Be really careful with any level of dread if intimacy is high.
A great life with a fearful-avoidant wife?
It’s doable. You need to get your SMV up, like any other man, and you’ll get a sweet and submissive wife. But you need to put in a ton of work to overcome her inhibitions, one at a time. You need to manage intimacy levels and never get content. You’ll likely still see bad avodiance episodes, say once or twice a year, and at high SMV they’re much, much worse than what you saw previously. The main trick here is to not reveal to her how she can really piss you off, and to shut the episodes down quickly - three days of escalating provokation is much worse than one.
But put in the work and 95% of the time, things are great. She's sweet, we touch and kiss a lot during the day, at any time I can unzip and she’ll give a BJ like a camgirl, she’s lively and enthusiastic during sex. The other 5% range from annoying to a nightmare, and you just have to suck that up if you want to live with a fearful-avoidant wife.
amalgamator 6y ago
So does your wife know she is fearful-avoidant?
Do you identify at anxious-preoccupied? Have you or your wife been able to change your attachment type to more secure?
Sepean 6y ago
Yeah she knows, she’s read about it and tried some therapy.
I’m dismissive-avoidant.
I don’t think there’s been much change, it is mostly handling it that has improved.
amalgamator 6y ago
I think that “handling it” is all you can do, meaning, work on growing up. Developing Outcome Independence/Frame/Differentiation/Self-worth - it goes be a lot of names.
Some people say AWALT - but shitty, immature behavior is shitty, immature behavior. Sure my wife is F/A but I’m anxious/preoccupied. In fact, I’d say that combination of F/A wife & A/P husband is RAMPANT here in MRP. The avoidant men probably have a tendency to not care to improve, so they don’t make it here. (Except you did!).
That’s why for me the work of David Schnarch has been impactful (I know /u/redpillcoach did his video series on the book Passionate Marriage - but it’s a shame it hasn’t made it on the official reading list). His writings on differentiation have been very helpful. Marriage is a growth machine because it pushes two people up against their weaknesses and lack of development. It doesn’t matter how I became weak in certain areas - (my parents, my previous relationships, my church) - what matters is I work on my own differentiation.
For fun - I showed her my attachment quiz result and then had her take the attachment quiz - yep, she came up fearful/avoidant. I read her some of the descriptions and her eyes got wide as dish plates. “Wow, that sounds exactly like me” - so it will be interesting to see if I can use that bit of info next time she tried to fuck up the relationship just as things are getting better.
[deleted] 6y ago
and now you cant fuck her cause your 10 year old is awake.
Fucken lol.
yolollypop 6y ago
Ok, but I myself am fearful avoidant. How the fuck to I fix this.
tefllifestyle 6y ago
Being women with FA is like a nightmare. Been there, never again lol. Just dumo her ass
Remington-Holmes 6y ago
I agree with everything you said. Sounds exactly like my wife.
I settled for a very long time. You're so right about continually pushing.
Mine also shit tests after being pushed for more and delivering, and threatens never to repeat the behaviour. The way to go is total cold indifference and high level dread and congruence with the message that you're not satisfied.
I still have a long way to go, but I'm in no hurry as there are many other women.
Remington-Holmes 6y ago
Indeed, you're correct. My wife also has considerable anxiety around sexual enjoyment and doing anything other than vanilla.
Progress for me has required killing all neediness for sex, although I do plenty of gaming, and making it clear that I'm not satisfied with the sex.
The communication about quality of sex was mostly made by being disinterested in her offer: turning down her initiations, a very few well chosen words when she raised the topic out of frustration, and active dread.
Sepean 6y ago
You really have to push it. Start with one thing, tell her exactly how you want her to do that thing. If she doesn't, tell her again - if she messes it up (she'll do that on purpose), correct it. When she doesn't comply, put on your pants an leave. Check out, and be frank that you're not interested in someone not willing to put in effort to please you.
Repeat with the next thing. We're talking small stuff, like tongue action during BJs is one thing, lots of saliva is another, etc.
Increasing alpha and SMV got my wife from "low libido" to horny but very inhibited. Then I had to wear down each of her inhibitions, now she'll talk technique while sucking dick, she licks my nipples while riding me, etc.
Being OI about it and hoping it'll get better will get you nowhere or at best it improves so slowly you hardly notice, you'll just be disappointed with her performance forever. Push it and push hard, one thing at a time. There's a lot to go through, it'll take time even if you go at it, so might as well get started.
I began the process relatively early, but there was a period in the middle where I settled, getting content when it got good. Push for pornstar quality, it's worth it.
hack3ge 6y ago
I'm here right now - I've been trying the OI route for her pushing back on things and it seems to have little to no effect. How many times did you find you had to walk away before she got the hint?
Sepean 6y ago
The first thing it takes a few times, along with checking out. Then there's half-hearted/sabotaging compliance from her, and you have to do it again. But it gets easier and easier.
hack3ge 6y ago
I have a mental block on walking away from sex because of the DBR similar to the mental block I had on bulking because I was a fat fuck. My preference has always been to flip her over, pull her hair, slap her ass and get mine then walk away if it’s shitty or she’s pushing back on things.
I’ve started to try and live my life by this quote “If you always do what you've always done, you will always get what you've always got” - so I guess it’s time for a change in approach.
Do you just say something like hey I’m not feeling this and roll over or do you specifically call out you are not interested in boring sex?
Sepean 6y ago
Just be specific, tell her it's a turn off that she can't put in the effort to do X. You have to be overt about it - if you want to go with disinterested, disappointed, AM or almost angry is up to you and je situation, but don't leave room for her hamster to twist the message. She doesn't get subtle, FAs have weak empathy and their hamster goes on overdrive.
Remington-Holmes 6y ago
Thanks for the write-up. I've been on MRP for over a year, though this is a new account. This behaviour exactly matches my wife. Although general MRP principles work, and I had identified my wife as low self-esteem, she wasn't playing fully by the standard rulebook.
I too worked out that I needed to completely check out of the relationship. With her, I'm exceedingly cold, and that is the only way to make any progress sexually, and to get any warmth, intimacy or sexual intimacy from her. My wife was completely locked down for anything sexual, except the most extremely vanilla acts.
I'll also add that it's so much easier to manage, and make progress with, when you already have other lovers.
Sepean 6y ago
If this is still the case, this can be improved a lot. By applying what I wrote here, my wife shows plenty of affection, and sexually she's always ready and up for everything.
tspitsatgp 6y ago
My takeaway is that I should slap her on the ass more and not display neediness by seeking comfort from her. Seems pretty in-line with MRP. Over the past few days I've taken to slapping her on the ass (she giggles) and not trying to hug/kiss etc her (she's trying to initiate affection, I'm minimising my responses to it). I feel better behaving this way actually. It's more in-line with how I was for the majority of our relationship, I only became a needy fuck in the past year.
Maybe there's a lot of "she" in this thread, but some of us fuckwits are special snowflakes who need to come at something from multiple angles before we get it.
Sepean 6y ago
It is nearly 100% congruent with MRP. If it wasn't, I think it would be game over. The basis for attraction is all the usual MRP stuff, for all women, and if that went against her attachment issues, you'd be fucked.
It goes beyond not showing neediness. It's emotional intimacy in itself that triggers avoidance. Especially for comfort tests, it's easy to trigger avoidance, but you can pass with a protective/dominant stance instead.
Well, when I'm describing how a certain attachment issue manifests itself in the behavior of a women, there's going to be a lot of "she"s.
It's not about any of us being snowflakes, it's just that MRP alone doesn't work well if your wife is fearful-avoidant. MRP is great for making you alpha and building lots of attraction, but an FA's attachment issues will cause of ton of problems if you're oblivious to them.
So just to make it clear: this is not MRP reframed. Everything in MRP still applies, 100%, and this doesn't replace it. This is a more like a section in the chapter on comfort tests: "If your wife is FA, note these differences".
tspitsatgp 6y ago
I get you - I chose my words poorly. Thanks for taking the time to write it all up and clarify.
MidlifeReformation 6y ago
Really good post OP and I appreciate you taking the time to put it together. Certainly if I had read this as a newbie, I might have taken it as a "this is my wife" and left it at that, and still been a co-dependent beta that's constantly in her "get away from me...come to me I need you" frame. That's what bought me to MRP in the first place.
​
However, 2.5 years into MRP, I've observed the exact same behaviors and have used many of the tactics you've outlined. While AWALT may apply, I think behavior is on a bell curve like every thing else. This definitely helps manage expectations while you OYS as sometimes that 1,000 ft. rope feels like it's never going to lose slack.
SKRedPill 6y ago
People who have too many mental issues aren't fit for relationships. Fix yourself all you want, but the truth is that some relationships have no authentic grounds for existing and when you become authentic, it's better to send them to that grave from which they sometimes never left.
You better insist that your wife starts paying some kind of awareness to her thoughts and emotions and don't rationalize the rest.
Sepean 6y ago
Why does every guy with a BPD ex feel they have to come here and tell me to leave? FA is not BPD. It’s not even close.
SKRedPill 6y ago
Look, you know best. Still, for people who suffer from anxiety due to too much past or too much future, the best thing they could do is to learn to surrender and accept the moment of experience - I used it when I realized I was too angry at myself and the world for the fuck up that was my own BP story - it took a while to give it space where it could dissolve. In my opinion, this is what all RP still hasn't focused on enough - how to deal with pain in a masculine way.
If you actually turned your woman into a submissive creature, it's the time.
I've noticed that even after your relationships take a U-turn after you've swallowed the pill, the past pain your beta self had to face lingers on in the form of memories that don't want to go away. There is a complete disillusionment about the nature of relationships and one sometimes wonders how animal we are behind that human being. And all men who've unplugged and woken up to the truth must sooner or later deal with the residual pain and anger and the acceptance of a reality that is not the ideal that we imagined or wanted - there is no salvation except through the reality of the present.
I cannot tell you just how great the benefits are when you are free of the traps of the mind that sabotage people from actually living. It feels like for the first time, all your energy is finally yours again, uninhibited. It is a liberating thing, the realization of outcome independence.
In my opinion, every person who ever wants to be in a relationship must know about this thing termed as "the pain body", because you will deal with it inevitably. And guess what, the RP way is indeed the best way to deal with it.
Your wife needs to face her demons, at least come to the point of realizing that they even exist. That first step is the hardest.
Sepean 6y ago
I agree with what you write.
I’m way beyond the pre-RP pain, that’s long gone. I’m almost 5 years into RP. Time and BJs heal all wounds.
My wife is aware of her FA, she’s read a few books on dealing with it, for a while saw a therapist, and also Laura Doyle’s the surrendered wife and first kill all marriage counsellors. She’s also RP aware and frequented the RPW subs too.
I think reflecting on it made some stuff easier for her, but I doubt it helped us much. My advice to any man dealing with this, you have to make the change happen. She’s not going to, no matter how cognisant she is of her issues. After you fix it, she’ll be ready to read about it.
gettingmymojoback 6y ago
I’ve been following these FA posts and just have to ask, where is the value in sticking around with a women with this many fucking issues?
MRP fixes the man, not the marriage. I can’t see any scenario that plays out with me coning to the conclusion that yes it is in fact her and not me....and then deciding “yup, I want to live the rest of my life this way”..
These posts have a ton of great content on HOW to deal with someone with FA. The question I have to ask is WHY?
Sepean 6y ago
If it is worth it, that’s a question each man must answer for himself. I guess this even helps with answering that question, by understanding the issue and what amount of progress you can expect to make.
jm51 6y ago
I managed to tear myself away from an ltr like that. Life was bland for some years after. Have forgotten the bad stuff but the good stuff? Oh my, she spoiled me for other women.
hack3ge 6y ago
Same reasons for sticking with any woman - she adds value to my life and helps with my mission. My wife overall isn’t a horrible women and honestly she hasn’t always been an FA she was closer to secure when we first met. There were circumstances in our marriage that actually pushed her to be FA - things I did and didn’t do so it’s not always a clear cut and dry case of poor vetting.
If anything it’s been helpful to me to kill my codependency. I have no need to for affection at all anymore - it’s just something I learned to reprogram in my head. Maybe that’s unhealthy and maybe not but it no longer bothers me that she can’t handle me hugging her or holding hands. She does it when she wants it and needs it which is very rarely.
Every person is different and for some it may be a deal breaker but that’s actually the least of my problems at this point now that I understand it.
mrpthrowa 6y ago
The way I see it is that it's a waste of time and people are deluding themselves into justifying a classic co-dependency with a BPD person.
Why go for the rotten fruit high up the tree, when there are so many juicy low hanging fruits.
Sepean 6y ago
FA is not BPD.
If you have the option to vet for it, absolutely do so. FA is huge red flag.
But when you’re 15 years and 3 children into the relationship, and you got it handled, it’s a different story.
Westernhagen 6y ago
But how do you vet for this? What are the warning signs? You have said her baseline behavior is normal, and the FA response doesn't always get triggered.
Sepean 6y ago
In my OP there’s a link to a test and some further reading, that should be enough to ID it (and the other insecure attachment styles).
mrpthrowa 6y ago
Classic sunk cost fallacy
All of this is, I’m afraid, the male hamster going wild. A male hamster masquerading behind some sort of pseudo intellectual theory with the false euphoria of conquering what is frankly nothing short of a mental illness
You do you mate, anyone else reading... children are better off than be in this trap.
Sepean 6y ago
You clearly don’t understand the issue. I don’t know if you’ve had a BPD ex or something and so you see BPD and mental illness everywhere. This is not BPD, it is not a mental illness, she is not bad for the kids (she is very invested in them, does a lot for and with them).
mrpthrowa 6y ago
I don’t care for what you call it... life is too short for the behaviour you describe above, and the mental gymnastics and work required to deal with it is so far removed from what a high value man with abundance should do with his time.
Sepean 6y ago
Well, that’s your opinion. But it seems to be based on you thinking this is BPD, mental illness, bad for the children - ie. you don’t understand what is going on.
SidMRP 6y ago
This has cleared up so much for me. Any time i start getting happy with wife she starts to be a huge c***. We have a massive blowout. I get distant for a while and she starts being nice again, and really trying to please me. I start getting used to it and the cycle repeats.
She says real horrible shit. She makes stuff up in her head. She tries to gaslight. She's an absolute arsehole.
But this post is going to help me so so much.
I know a lot of you will wonder why I'm with her. We met late teens, had a baby at 21, moved country and had two more. We're early 30's now. We've somehow stuck it through all this. I got my act together 3 or so years ago, but I've felt like mrp has never fully worked for me and i think this post is the missing piece.
Sepean 6y ago
I’ve talked to some other guys about this too, it’s amazing how we all see the exact same pattern as you describe.
You should see noticable improvements from implementing this.
SKRedPill 6y ago
I hate to tell you this, but insecurity is a self fulfilling prophecy. These girls have become too outcome dependent. Unfortunately fear attracts exactly the very thing you fear.
Choice is yours. My ex was in fact BPD and I did the best thing for everyone by checking out for good. I am now on the other side and infinitely happier than ever.
For anyone with these kind of issues, I seriously recommend practicing the power of now by Eckhart tolle. I used it to totally get out of the anger phase. The problem is not people feeling or thinking as much as their thoughts and feelings are using them.
You need to get her to do this for herself. If she won't do it, you will have to put up with this all life. If you've read "Practical Female Psychology for the Practical Man", she is really a textbook LSE woman, and probably finds the pain more familiar than the pleasure. Yes.
_-resonance-_ 6y ago
This write up is absolutely stellar. Having been through what I’ve been through, for those out there in a similar situation this writeup could be used as a manual and actually save marriages. Note: it’s important to distinguish an FA in a relationship from one in an actual marriage. I can attest that the act of marriage really triggers the avoidant response because it’s a huge display of intimacy. Be ready with your SMV, or embrace for a string of affairs immediately following marriage. (“I know there’s something wrong with me, and he married me. God, he is pitiful. Lemme go find some better options.)
It’s funny to think about how this writeup goes against any and all relationship advice you’ll find out there (besides tenets of red pill), but is likely the only approach that would work.
MrChad_Thundercock 6y ago
Good write up.
But FA? Never heard of that... your description just sounds like a typical woman. ..meaning irrational.
Sepean 6y ago
It is certainly not your typical woman, far from it.
Popeman79 6y ago
I didn't even know this was a thing, but you described my girl to a t. She loves me so much than when things are too good she feels unworthy of me and that I'll leave her. I've come to the same best responses as you, by trial and error.
One thing I learned from you post is that I should always be 'demanding' more. I really don't need anything more but I've noted that she actually enjoys having to improve, it's like it channels her fears.
Anyway great post, but it's gonna be wrongly applied by most casual readers, who can't differentiate this rare behavior from the tantrums most girls throw to test their frame.
FRedington 6y ago
Sounds like you might be referring to Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD), a member diagnosis within Cluster-B personality disorders. Is this the case?
independent_rooster 6y ago
FA? sound more like a BPD to me
Sepean 6y ago
It isn’t - FA is not even remotely as bad as BPD.
MightBeNiceGuy 6y ago
This is gold. Thank you.
[deleted] 6y ago
Thank you Sepean, this must have taken some serious time and effort. I hope it can help others the way it's helped me. Just understanding the attraction styles is huge. Great write up bro.
cluelessguitarist 6y ago
No offense but this FA type sounds like my bipolar ex
Sepean 6y ago
There might be similarities, but this is nothing like bipolar. Her baseline is much more normal, this isn’t truly pathological behavior.
PornConsumerAccount 6y ago
She's borderline personality syndrome.
Let me guess...she has the plan and the brains to do it but fails to launch every single time? It's never her fault for anything? Her "episodes" last days but she can go from happy to shitshow within an hour? You've already mentioned this...A persistent fear of abandonment and rejection, including extreme emotional reactions to real and even perceived abandonment. Hostility. You mentioned this...A history of unstable relationships that can change drastically from intense love and idealization to intense hate.
I'm in the process of getting divorce papers drawn up to keep in my safe. All I'm going to tell her is this marriage is by volunteer basis. My signature in on them any time she wants to take advantage of it. The only thing that blew thru her bullshit to make her self improve was me fucking another woman. It took dread at the highest level to penetrate her solipsism. I suggest you do the same.
Sepean 6y ago
No, she’s a high achiever. Project manager, makes over six figures, been offered managent positions. Always got top grades, well educated. Same at home.
No, she’s more likely to assume the fault is hers and that she can just work harder to cover for what is really other people’s problems or unreasonable expectations.
Not really. It’s not something you notice in her behavior but I’d say her persistent fear is more to be found inadequate. And if she thinks I’m leaving her response is to be sweeter, not hostile.
No.
I’ve done my homework on this. She’s not BPD. These things are much more precise than you make them out to be. You’re not “probably BPD” but only fit the symptoms if you stretch it. The same with FA, if it doesn’t fit very well, it’s not that.
[deleted] 6y ago
How do you know if women has low self esteem? Mine was raised to be sexy. At 16 she looked 20 and her mom taught her game etc. She was confident and would approach older men and buy them drinks. However, from what I have read and observed she is low self esteem. In her mind, she has high self esteem but I see so much FA in her. Is being clingy a tell tale sign or is it something deeper?
Garathon 6y ago
Holy shit. Wifeing someone to put up with all of that shit? I'd rather be single, but to each their own. She sounds like she has serious issues she hasn't dealt with and that's a huge red flag.
Sepean 6y ago
Yep, huge red flag. And yes I’ve put up with a ton of shit.
But I handled it, got her sweet, submissive and kinky, she’s always been fit, meticulous with her looks, smart, good job, does a ton around the house and for the kids. And the nuclear family is intact, that’s a real upside to me.
But yeah man, it has been a rough ride. As I said, this is marriage on nightmare difficulty.
Garathon 6y ago
Respect for even attempting it.
red-sfpplus 6y ago
You guys still worry to much about women, pussy and what is going on in their brains.
Fucking Rule 0 motherfuckers.
Shave your balls and ass. Go lift and develop some fucking arms, chest, shoulders and go fuck.
Most of you have less than half a life left to live.
Most of you have kids approaching college age.
Most of you are so consumed with a single woman you are going to die a boring man.
Most of you have far more committed to others than yourself.
[deleted] 6y ago
Wait rule zero is shave your ass and balls?
TantalusOfTartarus 6y ago
More aerodynamic for thrusting prob
red-sfpplus 6y ago
No one likes kicking hair, and if you are not getting your ass kicked, you are not focused on rule zero.
[deleted] 6y ago
Help a brother out, what the fuck is rule zero?
I have never been into getting my ass licked or kicked personally.
Maximus_Valerius 6y ago
Sidebar much?
Rule Zero is the first rule of MRP. You have to shave your ass and scrotum, and post before and after pics as proof.
Pro tip: scrub the metadata from your photos before posting. Getting doxxed from your shave pics will earn you a ban.
Sepean 6y ago
Maybe, but I chose to get what I want in my marriage and spare my kids a divorce. This is what it took.
red-sfpplus 6y ago
Dont pretend to be a martyr.
Its unattractive. Just say you didn’t want a D but dont leverage the kids.
Sepean 6y ago
Lol man, sticking to it through the hard shit for your kids isn’t being a martyr, wtf are you talking about?
red-sfpplus 6y ago
More like adjusting yourself to a nut job of a wife so you "spare" your kids the D.
As someone who did the same, both my kids and I are way happier with the D than "sticking" through all the BS.
But I am glad you are happy, and have figured out how to adjust YOURSELF to someone else, so you can be happy.
Rather than just being yourself and telling anyone who has a problem with it to fuck off.
Sepean 6y ago
For me it really is about sticking through some bad times. 95% of the time, things are good. With 1-2 avoidant episodes per year, it’s manageable.
I get what you mean by adjusting yourself, as I wrote I tried that and I couldn’t live like that. I don’t know what else you think I adjusted? Reducing signs of affection? Frankly the dominant and sexual alternatives feel better to me.
I don’t know what issues your wife had, are they really the same as my wife’s?
manycane 6y ago
Comprehensive and practical. Thanks for this.
_-resonance-_ 6y ago
Just described life with my ex (mother of my child). As soon as we experienced the “intimacy” of marriage, she was gone. The string of “affairs” got long. The marriage ended as soon as it began. If I knew then what I know now, I’d have handled things differently. (Note, we were together 8 years before marrying. During that time, during her uncertainty, she wanted me desperately).
My issue now is finding the right level of beta/vulnerability when I meet new women. With most I’ll close on the first date, but some have the “no sex on first date” wired in them. I don’t want to mess up what could be a reliable arrangement, but I also don’t want to “submit” to her need of “getting to know each other” more, even though she’s topless on my bed licking my neck.
weakandsensitive 6y ago
This post sucks, not because it's wrong per se (although I think it's modern era FEELZ bullshit anyway), but because a bunch of newbie fucking retards are going to take it and divest personal responsibility.
Things that are out of your control, do not matter. Focusing on things you don't control is a cop out to look for excuses.
BobbyPeru 6y ago
A lot of this FA info seems pretty AWALT tbh. I mean, AWALT is on a spectrum, as usual, but being overly nice with any woman will make her treat you like shit
mrpthrowa 6y ago
I think it’s just hamster . This bullshit is not what a high value male should occupy his time with
[deleted] 6y ago
[--removed--]
Sepean 6y ago
Well, anyone thinking that their wife won’t fuck them because she’s FA just suck. Core MRP works as advertised for building attraction.
And the stuff I write about is actionable. It’s not out of your control.
MightBeNiceGuy 6y ago
After I read you comment about FA the other day, I did some binge reading on the Avoidant personality type and bought one of Jeb Kinnison's books. Amazingly insightful!
Most of this describes my wife pretty well. She definitely experiences these avoidance episodes, threatens to end it (many times), but never does. I do feel like she's trying to make me leave her sometimes.
My question is that I've not experienced the swing back to submissiveness and sex in _many_ years. I'm wondering if it's due to my low SMV and me being a placating pussy for so long, or maybe that she's not really FA and has some other more severe issues around sex/intimacy?
Our cycle goes more like: I'm nice/affectionate, she pushes me away, I get frustrated/angry, she comes down off of her rage and then is "nice" again by making a 5-course dinner (not offering sex) and maybe buying me something small to be nice. She simply doesn't want sex or consider sex as a peace offering anymore.
I have not tried the checking out completely strategy. This will be really hard for me at this point. I'm even having trouble implementing a little bit of dread. I still get anxious about upsetting her, and I still most days need that validation of a hug or ass-grab to know that my wife is still there. I probably come back much too quickly with the affection and that doesn't let her complete the cycle of the fear response.
In my reading recently, I realized that I've probably become the Anxious-Preoccupied type in this relationship and have been excessively needy for most of our marriage which has triggered her Avoidance to the point of checking out of the emotional side of the relationship completely.
I'm about 2.5 months into my MAP which was triggered by an anxiety crisis on my part shortly before our 10-year anniversary. This made me look very weak and unattractive to her and prompting her to move out of our bedroom and won't come back. This is about when I found MRP and trying to turn things around.
Do you have any advice for me to help me complete the cycle? Am I interrupting her fear response by being affectionate again too soon?
Sepean 6y ago
Focus on core MRP. If you’re not fuckable, you’re not fuckable, and that’s your problem.
Cutting out the affectionate stuff should help a bit, but you’ll only get real results with higher SMV. Lift, frame, game, dread, all the usual stuff, that’s your bread and butter.