Ever hear of The No True Scotsman fallacy? It is a way of reinterpreting evidence in order to prevent the refutation of one’s position. Proposed counter-examples to a theory are dismissed as irrelevant solely because they are counter-examples, but purportedly because they are not what the theory is about.
The No True Scotsman fallacy involves discounting evidence that would refute a proposition, concluding that it hasn’t been falsified when in fact it has.
- John cheats on his wife
- No real man (red pill man, alpha) cheats on his wife.
Therefore: John is not a real man (red pill man, alpha)
Therefore: John is not a counter-example to the claim that a real man (red pill man, alpha) cheats on his wife.
I call this the No Real Man Fallacy and it’s gaining traction throughout Red Pill. It’s bullshit. This fallacy is a form of circular argument, with an existing belief being assumed to be true in order to dismiss any apparent counter-examples to it. The existing belief thus becomes unfalsifiable.
Let’s be clear. Red Pill is not endorsing whole sale cheating though it doesn’t vilify it either. Such a move is reserved for the highest levels of dread and even then you have had the FMOFY speech. There are times men are goaded into it because we are proving the point that sex is just that easy to get. If that’s all you want, then get laid. Go do it and stop bothering us.
Making this move at DL11 is not for everyone. Most times things don’t get this far. Divorce happens or she jumps on board the train. It will result in one of two things:
- Complete destruction of an already bad marriages
- Her utter submission because she knows you can walk out.
There are men here that can attest to either of these outcomes with the use of Dread in this way. It’s been clear that sex is part of the relationship otherwise you are seeking it else where. No one can force someone to have sex yet neither can an adult be forced into celibacy.
Some of the premises used in the No Real Man Fallacy are: you create fear in her (aka negative side of dread), a real man faces his problems head on, a real man would just up and leave.....The list goes on.
The MRP premise has always been at DL11 go get laid. You’ve run the race. She isn’t listening. This step is acknowledging the final end. You are getting fucked you are getting laid. She has no control over that decision. While you can’t make someone have sex (though you can make them pay for your life) you equally can’t force someone into celibacy.
By putting yourself into fictitious beliefs as to what a “real man is and does” you are continuing the same blue pill bullshit that brought you here. Cheat or don’t cheat. That’s your decision. Focusing on this is missing the point. Sex is damn easy to get. Believe me. I am Chad. Yet don’t come here declaring you are a man of your word. I will find many ways in which that isn’t true.
The only place honor and your word exist is when you can afford it. When you have reached the position of a high value man and you can afford to keep your word then you do. Until then you are fighting your way and should not be limiting yourself. Eventually you will find you give your word less and only to things that matter. Constantly giving your word devalues its worth (see the connection?).
I remember when I had my first beer.
I was 18. Fresh out of basic training. My squad leader handed it to me at my first squad party. I was pretty nervous, like looking around for mom. Fuck, I had just graduated basic training, AIT, in my first unit.....I had never had a beer up until then. He looked at me and said:
First beer, eh kid?
Yeah.
Listen. (He pulled the beer away) Don’t let any one force you to drink. If you want to. Do it. If not. Then don’t. Don’t be forced into decisions you don’t want to make but also don’t be afraid to make them.

weakandsensitive 6y ago
Do you know how important having this mindset is? Men pedestal pussy because they think are parched, and they make shitty decisions as a consequence.
If you're not a fat fuck, pussy is abundant. What's rarer is quality. (Although... we talk all the time about what women are capable of doing for men they value and respect, so is it actually rare or is it a quality of man problem?)
RuleZeroDAD 6y ago
Everyone gets what they deserve, they just might not comprehend how terrible they are.
Red-Curious 6y ago
What if Scottish law said, "A true Scotsman is one who is a Scottish citizen and maintains residency in Scotland"? Well, now there's an actual code from people with authority to decide who is a true Scotsman and who isn't.
But then someone can complain, "But he's not a true Scotsman, in my book." Now we're back to the question of whether amorphous social norms hold more definitional authority than a governing agency. So, the governing authority could write a statute, "No person shall hold anyone to a different standard of a 'true Scotsman' than our law dictates," and then proceeds to list sentences for committing such a crime. So, outside their jurisdiction anyone can say anything about what qualifies as a 'true Scotsman,' but enter their boundaries and you're off to Scotland Yard.
Is there a book somewhere out there, written by a person or people with governing and judicial authority over men everywhere which happens to define what a man is, and which imposes consequences for those who reject the standards found in that book? Oops, that's a conversation to have elsewhere.
As far as the manosphere goes, I'm pretty sure if someone wrote a post here on MRP all about how "real men don't cheat on their wives," the post would get removed pretty quickly - because someone somewhere in authority has determined that a guy can cheat on his wife and still be a true man. Heck, if he buys into the view that men are inherently and bio-psychologically polygamous (as I do), he's even more a "true man" for expressing his polygamous nature.
Similarly, if someone wrote a post about how you can pedestalize your wife and serve her every whim and that doesn't invalidate you from being a "true man," that post would also get taken down. We could call it trolling, but the fact is that the majority of men actually believe this and might just be trying to preach their philosophies to a crowd that disagrees with them.
My point is more to say that there are individual pockets of governing authorities within the manosphere that have jurisdictional authority to enforce their own definition of manhood - however broad or small that definition may be - and that these definitions absolutely do get enforced. So, while it's easy to say that no one is the arbiter of what qualifies as a "true man," there are still always going to be standards somewhere about what different groups find to be acceptable messages about masculinity/manhood and what aren't. And people in those positions of authority will decide what messages their readership will hear on the subject and not.
And that's not a bad thing. I'm all for allowing autonomy to people within their own domain to govern as they wish. It's the same mentality as minimizing a federal government to empower the state governments to figure out their own issues. But along with this means that there will never be a general consensus throughout the entire manosphere on certain topics, and we just have to be okay with that. Some people aren't, hence the screwball stuff with the 21 Convention and Rollo and all that, along with many of the other fissures that have happened in the manosphere.
One of the consequences of putting a bunch of guys in a chatroom together and pointing them all toward becoming alphas is that eventually people will start trying to AMOG each other with their own views and definitions of the concept of masculinity. I'm with you - this is best avoided, and it's actually a pretty beta concept of people end up caring too much about that issue. But it's inevitable all the same.
weakandsensitive 6y ago
It's an interesting point.
At MRP - I don't think we'll have a post that is exclusive, i.e. you CAN'T do something. Even a negative, e.g. "If you DON'T go to the gym, you're not a real man." or "If you can't deadlift 400+, you're not a real man". That all falls under the category of dancing monkey, imo. If A, then B. Or more accurately, If Not A, then Not B.
At MRP, the approach is more you can do literally anything you want so long as you take ownership and it's congruent to YOUR values. However, from experience, we know some things are more effective for your general population than others. For the majority of people, LIFT is #1 because most guys coming in here aren't physically attractive. But if a guy coming in here is already physically attractive, telling him to lift more isn't going to be a win - his emphasis might need to be more on mental attractive.
But that's why there's the OYS threads.
The big challenge isn't to be a manosphere dancing monkey, it's to figure out how everything applies to your personal values so it's congruent.
An example of this is guys coming in here who've deferred sex to their wife's pussy. For those guys, no matter what they do, if they think their sex life is locked within one pussy they have no say over... no matter what they do, they won't get over it.
My advice to those guys is, go out there and recognize pussy is abundant, and it's your choice to hand the keys to YOUR sex life over to someone else. For some guys, that might mean going out and fucking other women to see how easy it is. For others, that might be flirting, dating, or just talking to them. The method doesn't matter so long as the mindset is changed as a result of the action.
The important part is changing the mindset block that men have instilled in themselves. It's not "you MUST go cheat on your wife", it's get the real life experience so you take ownership of the fact you're making a CHOICE to not have sex by deferring power in your sex life. You can't take meaningful action without actual reference experiences that challenge and change your existing mindset.
The last sentence is broadly applicable. Couple examples:
You can't, because you haven't experienced it. You just have an illusion of what you think it's like based on the fantasy in your head.
The ego is what makes guys go "No, YOU have to do it MY way." vs. my approach which is "You're free to do it my way, or you're free to fuck off. Your choice." I don't care about what you do, but I do care about how I respond. At MRP, I get the option of enforcing that via bans. In the real world, I can enforce by removing time and attention.
Red-Curious 6y ago
I fully get what you're saying, but there's still a good bit of content policing that goes on here, especially with anyone who ever gets labeled for concern trolling. Guys you (mods, generally) banned used to come to me for a time, for whatever reason thinking I had any sway here, complaining about being mislabeled as trolls or having their content removed.
When that was happening, I'd most often ignore them because I'm actually all in favor of content policing - particularly after bad content has been proven ineffective (I'll entertain any idea at first), and the world has already proven a heck of a lot to be ineffective. But as appropriate as this may be, it still means that there's some standard that's being held about what types of advice men are allowed to hear here, which puts guardrails around what type of men they're likely to become.
I mean, let's be honest. You say, "literally anything you want so long as you take ownership and it's congruent to YOUR values," but if some guy's values involve pedestalizing his wife's pussy because of some reverse dom fetish he has, and he writes a post about how great his marriage is because he serves her every whim and that every other guy should too ... that crap's getting taken down. It's not going to work for the majority of guys who don't have that kind of fetish. But putting guardrails around what works for the majority also means creating a highway between those guardrails to a particular destination that men who stay within those guardrails will all end up becoming.
So, on a philosophical plane it's easy to say, "We don't dictate what a real man is or isn't," but on a pragmatic level we all know that most people - even alleged "alphas" - are going to feel a compulsion to flow with the majority, and therefore adopt the inevitable result of staying within the guard rails as their ideal of masculinity.
To be clear, I'm not saying MRP needs to change anything about what they're doing or that any of this is wrong. I'm all for it - because the result here are a heck of a lot better than the results of any other sets of guardrails men can find in the world (at least insofar as reaching a secular population).
At the end of the day, if you take away the guardrails and tell men to come up with their own definition of masculinity, the majority will flounder around for a while and default to someone else's view. So, it's better to turn them into a dancing monkey for a time until they're stable enough to figure things out for themselves than just to give them the truth up-front. Incidentally, this is the exact balance Christians deal with on a spiritual level with the pragmatic reality of legalism compared with the theological accuracy of antinomianism - but that's too off-topic to get into.
I've noted the same concept on RPC periodically: that a guy can't possibly have a solid frame until he knows with genuine confidence that he could have another girl in his bed in a matter of hours if he wanted. Sexual dependency means a guy either has to abandon his sexuality (and therefore has no business on a red pill forum in the first place, becoming a MGTOW) or never be truly free from the frame of the one he's dependent on.
For me, this did not involve cheating on my wife, but did involve a lot of catch-and-release. At first my reaction was just, "This is cool. Girls are paying attention to me now." Great. But I didn't really internalize it until twice in a month, unsolicited, I had girls at a drive thru writing their number on my receipt based on a 2 minute interaction. That's when things shifted to realizing how easy it could be.
Ergo the thrust against mental masturbation. Admittedly, I didn't get that early on, having been more interested in theory than practice, and taking other people's word for it as the pragmatic side without experiencing it for myself. Having been on the other end, I now see the distinction, though it's subtle because it's not particularly different from what I expected. But I know enough guys where it didn't come so easy that I can see why letting theory turn into expectation (i.e. covert contracts) would be dangerous.
Right, but when no alternative forum exists to give men comparable hope, the practical reality is they're still going to have the same psychological perception as the first guy who says "No, YOU have to do it MY way."
It's like America saying, "You don't like #metoo? You want to live in a country that supports the feminist agenda? Great. Screw off." And the guy looks at every other country in the world and realizes the places without these problems are so much worse off in a myriad of other ways, so he doesn't take "you're free to fuck off" as a viable option, and therefore is internally compelled to conform to your standard - not because it's his standard or even a good standard, but because all the other options short of becoming a millionaire and buying your own private island and turning it into your own country ... well, they just don't work.
weakandsensitive 6y ago
Bingo! You can say anything you want but if it doesn't apply to the average man in the manner that we think is appropriate, you can't say it here.
What market you can talk to and where you can talk isn't our problem, and we're not going to make that our problem.
Chump_No_More 6y ago
Being 'Alpha' is highly over-rated.
Be a man of value, as your mental point of origin with a matching frame.
Only then will you have the facilities to cogently argue what an Alpha 'looks like'... but by then it will be irrelevant.
RP_PO 6y ago
I think the AMOGing weeds out some guys who never really develop their own frame. A guy comes in here and posts an OYS, and gets owned by a veteran RP guy. Over time they look up to the guy that owned them, and aspire to be them. Thats not bad early on; it gives them something to aim at while they get their shit together. But if they never fully develop their own frame, they get trapped in what their new “mentor” describes as manhood instead of developing their own manhood, congruent with their own values. In that way, they are still semi-beta and not going after what they truly want....just what someone else wants.
[deleted] 6y ago
If you’re just trying to emulate someone else you’re doing it wrong. You’re now just in his frame. Better than your wives probably but not where you want to be.
Listen to the “mentors”, consider their advice but make up your own mind - right or wrong, it’s your life. Those who are AMOGing are trying way too hard to fulfill their ego. A true AMOG doesn’t have to try to prove anything - he just is and knows it.
Red-Curious 6y ago
Right. And sometimes the "mentors" do this intentionally - whether because they themselves are misguided or because they're testing everyone else's frame (or probably both). This is why a man can share his ideas on masculinity and half a dozen people will call him a faggot or autist. They're communicating, "You are worthless as a man because your thoughts on masculinity don't measure up to mine."
So, I wouldn't blame that dynamic entirely on the new guys, though I'm sure they have more than a fair share of this problem going around as well.
Over60_FireTempered3 6y ago
Nice write up. Just one "yes or no" question: Are you really the same man that came here 2 years ago? I'm having trouble seeing any resemblance.
Red-Curious 6y ago
No.
Over60_FireTempered3 6y ago
Good to know.
johneyapocalypse 6y ago
Only a real man could write this post.
Don't forget, dude's have been cheating long before gay-pill came along, and for reasons other than dreading their wives.
... Or perhaps at a point when those things may be all you have, and then you learn to value them so much more.
Overall, I agree with your premise that too many faggots are ascribing to the proposed behaviors of a fictitious character, the RP, nay, alpha boogeyman if you will.
That fucker only exists in the minds of the weakest of pussies.
WolfofAllStreetz 6y ago
Humans, especially men are not monogamous creatures. I am realizing this over the last 3 years or so.
I have fucked a girl in my marital bed as my wife left to go to the GYM.
I have fucked a girl in the ass while my wife lubed it up.
I have got a blowjob while my wife played with said girls hair.
I have tons of these premises. This is not a humblebrag.
Am I further along than most, I dunno probably not. I just know Im not going to die bored at this point. If it all goes up in flames because I’m “living” so be if.
Caveat Emptor.
markpf73 6y ago
Trying to fill a void?
WolfofAllStreetz 6y ago
Not sure, possibly.
I just don’t see how you can bang the same woman for 35 years and still be fulfilled.
Muddy waters i know.
markpf73 6y ago
Using sex like heroin.
mrp_awakening 6y ago
Yeah, those who sit and try to figure out and mimic "what an alpha would do" are inherently stuck in blue pill mindset and are not alpha. Alpha is on a fundamental level is unapologetically doing what you want to do, when you want to do it, without concern for what others opinion. If you spend half a second trying to alter your behavior to try to appease others, that's fundamentally not alpha. The alpha of a pack doesn't concern himself with appeasing others to improve their opinion of him... that's what betas do to the alpha. The alpha may take care of/protect/lead betas, but it isn't about appeasement and more because he's leading a larger group and a larger group is more effective at taking on his missions than he would be alone. Betas enjoy rules and following, and alphas enjoy leading and making rules. At a fundamental level, being alpha is being true to yourself, and nobody else. You don't want to cheat? Great, do it because that's your decision... not because of some external rule. You do want to cheat? Great, do it because that's your decision... not because of some external rule. Alphas don't have any rules but their own.
I've put myself on a couple online dating sites just to fish around and keep two in the kitty. I've broken almost all the fucking "rules" there. My profile straight up says I'm married. Pic is shirtless pic of me, in a dirty bathroom, with a toilet in the background. Says I'm looking for fun and excitement... nothing more. Girls often message me first. When we do message, a common shit test is asking if my wife knows or if its open. I say "she doesn't have a clue... is that gonna be a problem?", owning it, showing OI, and flipping pressure right back. Every time, the hampster rationalizes that it's fine and they back down. Some women even go as far as to say "that's hot".
Basically... you need to figure out who you are. Make your decisions about yourself. And own them. Unapologetically.
RP_PO 6y ago
Fucking Army cat. At least you weren’t a POG though!
RicoDunne 6y ago
Upvote for not being a POG... and the other stuff was good to.