The MRP model of communication and signals
First, let us look at what we signal with our communication, divided into categories that are relevant to sexual strategy:
Trivial signals: This is all the mundane topics - what happened at work, planning the next vacation destination. It can be small or big, you and your wife can have aligned goals or you can be at odds. It is trivial in the sense that it doesn’t have much relevance to sexual strategy. Note that a given interchange can be about something trivial and have elements of sexual strategy like she is also shit testing you. To make things clear, we separate them out - part of the interchange is trivial, another part is sexual strategy. I’m not going to consider trivial signals in the rest of the post.
Alpha signals: This is communication that signals alpha. Confident body language, passing shit tests, cocky remarks, etc. This increases attraction, which has obvious benefits.
Domination signals: This is making her do what you want and enforcing boundaries. Being dominant can have elements of signalling alpha, but there are two important differences: First, this stuff matters to you: life is better when she makes you sandwiches, deepthroats you, and doesn’t fuck other men. Second, with high SMV you can be dominant and she’ll comply and it signals alpha, while low SMV men are ignored and only signal their weakness by trying to be dominant.
Good beta signals: This is stuff that signals beta but doesn’t hurt your alpha. It is passing comfort tests without coming off as weak and supplicant, or sending signals similar to that. Women have a dual sexual strategy and especially in the context of an LTR, they do need beta - giving too little will make her freak out from lack of comfort. As a side note, a lot of good beta signalling can be done actually doing shit - fixing stuff in the house, taking care of the kids, making money.
Blue signals: This is what we at MRP consider the bad signals, where you signal lack of alpha, weakness, supplication, insecurity, fear, sadness, unconditional loyalty, self sacrifice.
Imagine that the signals are the rows in a table.
Now let us look at how we choose to communicate (and I don’t mean you necessarily choose rationally, you can have very little conscious say in the matter). You get an idea, how do you communicate it?
STFU: You say nothing.
Habit: You just say something out of habit, it’s what you always say. “No, you don’t look fat in that”.
Emotional: You communicate mainly based on emotion. Maybe you’re scared of her reaction so you can’t help but say what you think will calm her down, maybe you’re angry and say something you don’t really believe, etc.
Tactical: You say not what is on your mind, but something that you believe will manipulate her to your advantage.
Honest and open: You just say what is on your mind.
These are the columns in the table.
So all your ideas come tumbling down from the top, and depending on your emotional state, level of self control, ideological beliefs about communication, sexual strategy insights, it goes down one of the columns and ends up in a given row.
Most people aren’t aware of the signals distinction that we use, so they communicate based on the columns. Their emotions guide them, or their belief or personal preference for honesty, or their desire to manipulate.
Here at MRP, we teach guys about the signals and tell them to look ahead in the table, see what signal row you’ll end up in and choose your communication based on that instead.
New guys, we tell them Blue Signals, choose STFU. Domination, choose STFU (stop nagging her for sex, you don’t have the SMV to back it up). Alpha signals, be honest or tactical (fake it till you make it).
As they get their SMV up and their wives become more submissive, they can choose to be open and honest with their domination signals.
And once they get to the endgame and they settle into their masculine identity, most of their ideas fall in line, most of their impulses go into open and honest column and ends up in the good signal rows naturally and they don’t even get the idea to say blue shit very often.
Does communication work?
When people talk about if communication works, they rarely mean in the broad sense of “everything is communication”. They usually mean honest and open communication.
Does honest and open communication work?
The MRP position is that good relationships are based on signalling alpha and good beta, not signalling blue (or at least very little), and being dominant once your SMV is up. We should all be convinced in how well this works.
To the extent that your honest and open communication results in those signals, sure communication works.
In Communication Doesn't Work....or Maybe... u/Blarg_Risen outlines his thoughts on communication, which go quite a bit further than sticking to MRP signals. There's a lot of good, really red stuff in the post, and that's a big part of the problem. With that much red, and from a guy who obviously has his shit together and a good relationship, it's easy to miss that some of it might not be red. It's not uncommon on MRP or TRP to see alphas who have an easy time with women think that everything they do improves their relationship (leadership and wealth being two common traits that often gets mistaken for something that turn women on). In this case, it's communication, where Blarg outlines his thoughts on how MRP doesn't understand communication and is afraid to try honest communication.
When someone comes along and says MRP is wrong and gets a 97% upvote rate, we have to examine it further. Is MRP wrong?
If MRP is wrong and that there is intrinsic value and benefit in communication, regardless of what it signals, there has to be value in blue signals.
Does anyone really believe that? Is signalling low alpha somehow good? If that's not the case, where does the benefit come from? Trivial signals?
If you’re saying that honest and open communication is good, but only to the extent that you’re signalling alpha, good beta and domination, you’re saying the exact same thing as MRP. There’s nothing new here. If there is an MRP end goal, it is to build a masculine identity where that is the case.
Let’s take a very alpha guy, 90% of the time his honest communications signals alpha, domination and good beta, the other 10% he signals blue. Can he get away with that, and have a wife who is attracted to him? Sure. Is it optimal? No. Is it good advice to signal blue 10% of the time? No.
It’s like a shredded guy eating ice cream, sure he can get away with it because the rest of his diet and lifting is good enough, but it isn’t optimal and not something you’d recommend outside of letting people relax a bit to stay sane.
And I agree with relaxing a bit, especially once your SMV is up. I don’t believe you should constantly be keeping score of your alpha points: enjoy the leeway you get from having a huge surplus of alpha.
The simple truth is this: when she thinks her man is hot, and she knows that he doesn't tolerate too much lip from her - he can say some stupid shit, and she'll nod her head and go along with it anyway. And I can't overlook how Blarg points out that if she doesn't agree with him, they'll just part ways.
But there’s a fucking big difference between saying that you can relax a bit once you’re alpha, and saying that honest and open communication is good in itself.
So does open and honest communication work? To the extent that you signal red, sure - what matters is what you signal. Does it matter much of it is honest? Not really. Is honest communication that signals blue good? No.
The dangers of an believing that open and honest communication is good
Humans are terrible at self evaluation. How we see the world is greatly influenced by emotion, beliefs, ego protection, cognitive dissonance and many other biases. Anyone who hasn’t read up on the extreme degree our biases muddle or thinking should do so, right now. Get Kahneman’s Thinking, Fast and Slow.
We can combat our biases, and regarding communication we do so by looking at what we signal.
If we don’t, we very easily get caught up in the traps of thinking that whatever we want and feel is good. I’ve written about this before, how our desire to explain our vision early is usually a mistake ("Do you like my dissected boobs?) or how many men think their beta desires are something women respect them for (Most men's masculine ideal is not alpha).
In the recent post on the merits of communication, it even went so far as to praise having the courage to be vulnerable by communicating weakness. Just no. Women don’t think you’re hot because you have the balls to share your fears and sorrows with her. It's not ballsy, it's just sharing weakness. This is exactly the sort of cognitive dissonance you fall into when you begin believing that “communication is good”, you twist reality to fit your beliefs instead of thinking critically.
Nothing indicates that communication is good. It is about the signals. You want to signal alpha, good beta and domination, and you want to avoid signalling blue. You should stay away from any idea that removes you from that understanding and makes you uncritically pour your heart out with open and honest communication, without being aware of what you're signalling.
The other coin of communication - listening to her
The standard MRP position here is to have your own vision and follow it. Don’t listen to your wife, respond with A&A or STFU to her requests and criticisms (with regards to your personality and your relationship - we’re not talking about her asking you to lift a heavy box or planning your vacation).
There are good reasons not to listen what she says, some of the issues are:
Lack of introspection: People very often have poor introspection. They are often not aware of what they want, and especially common is lacking the ability to predict future enjoyment. As an obvious example, take how women react to the red pill (typically disgust that we’re learning how to cheat them) yet once her man actually alphas up, he’s suddenly so fucking hot and she can’t believe she has a man like that at home.
Timidity, resistance to change, laziness, inability to delay gratification: People refrain from doing smart things all the time. They’re scared trying something new, they’re too lazy to go to the gym, they really want to eat another serving of dessert. Yet I don’t think anyone would disagree that enjoying what life has to offer and being fit and healthy is way better long term. But they'll hamster their shortsighted desires to no end.
Tactical communication: People say shit to manipulate the other person into doing what they want. Maybe they don’t want to argue, so they say what the other person wants to hear. Maybe they’re afraid of the consequences of saying no.
Shit testing: The main reason for not listening is shit testing (or compliance testing). Women have a dual sexual strategy and one way this manifests itself is to compliance test men, often with something very unreasonable - if the man complies, she gets him to service her and she knows he’s a beta she shouldn’t fuck, if he passes the shit test she’s learned he’s a fuckable alpha. It’s a brilliant strategy.
When you go down the “communication is a two way street” route, you have to take a different stance. You have to trust and respect what the other person says - if you think you're mostly hearing bias, justification, manipulation and shit tests, you're not listening. And trusting and respecting what someone says, that's a very weak position to take. You're suddenly easily vulnerable to manipulation and deception, or even just taking an honest mistake they make and running with it because you "hear what she's saying".
In the post on the merits of communication, it was described (correctly) how competent women can be in their lives. This was major premise for the whole idea. If they’re not competent, why respect what they want?
But competency is not relevant. Someone competent can still be manipulative and tactical in their communication. In fact, the more someone has achieved, the more likely they are to be very adept at making people do what they want.
This holds doubly true in a relationship since women shit test. Women are not solely interested in a cooperative effort with honest communication to maximize relationship quality - for them to enjoy a relationship they have to feel their man is alpha, and they do this by shit testing which by its nature is bullshit and deceptive. You’re supposed to disregard it.
Believing in communication before you’re very alpha and she’s very submissive is disastrous. You absolutely have to pass shit tests and not listen to her initially.
Once she submits, this behavior largely subsides. But shit tests still happen from time to time. You have to be ready for this and respond correctly. Even vets, if they fail a shit test by taking her seriously, it can spiral out of control. Women probe for frame weaknesses and if they find one, they’ll keep hammering on that flaw, harder and harder, insisting that you understand and respect this feeling she has, and the more you do the less alpha you signal. You put yourself in a weak and exploitable position by believing in the merits of communication.
Maybe there’s some level of alphaness where women stop shit testing at all, but I doubt it. And if there is, it is not a place you got to by communicating, it was something you achieved with high alpha and dominance.
The degree to which she is on board and being cooperative is entirely based on high alpha and dominance where she submits and accepts your vision. From that position of position, and to the degree that she submits, sure, communication can be productive and mutually beneficial. u/HornsOfApathy has great posts about the level he has taken this to with their very intimate D/s relationship, and while most vets haven’t gone so far many of us enjoy that the shit testing is rare and our wives communicate honestly most of the time.
But this is an effect of her submitting, and that happened because we were dominant instead of listening back when she was still shit testing and challenging us regularly.
Observations on relationships with varying degrees of communication
If we look at bad relationships, where the man is low alpha and has communicated his needs and feelings very openly, this never works. Seeking the help of a marriage counsellor that helps them communicate better, again, it doesn't work.
When such a man limits his communication to signalling what MRP suggests, we see massive improvements in attraction and relationship quality.
The path to relationship happiness certainly isn’t through honest and open communication.
If we look at the high end, we have dominant men with submissive wives. Some of them praise communication. Some of them don’t.
Take a guy like /u/red-sfpplus. Does anyone believe that if he settled down, his steady girl wouldn’t be crazy about him and super submissive even if he didn’t communicate with and listen to her?
There are other vets here who are alpha, married and don’t place much value on communication. Are they doing well or not? I’ve had periods at high SMV where I didn’t listen to or respect my wife at all, and it worked just fine.
Take the vets who communicate with and respect their wives. Let’s take away the communication except for the MRP suggested signalling. Does anyone really believe their alpha wouldn’t carry their relationship on its own? That their wives would stop submitting because they stopped?
Let’s take one of the communicating vets, and his wife suggests something he doesn’t like - and he goes along with it. What is the probability that she won’t ask for a bit more next time? And where does that spiral end? Does it stop before he either puts his foot down, or she loses respect? Does communication and respect work outside of a dominant frame, without a “my way or the highway” principle?
No matter how I look at it, I can’t see communication outside of MRP style signalling being productive - it is irrelevant, counterproductive or an indulgence (and there’s nothing wrong with being indulgent, all else being equal).
Conclusion
For a lot us, communication is great. We love to talk, to be heard, to be understood, to explain things, to be agreed with, to have our vision shared.
MRP has identified the problems that arise from this desire when it signals blue - as it can easily end up doing.
Luckily, many men are able to settle into a masculine identity where they are very red - naturally alpha and dominant, with some good beta sprinkled in. That’s who many of us are, and to the extent we are, communicate all of that freely without inhibition. And heck, with enough frame whatever blue shit comes out once in a while, don’t sweat it, you got the SMV buffer to handle it.
Those that aren’t so lucky, if there’s too much blue in you and not enough alpha, exercise some self control, stick to MRP style signalling.
This is drastically different than saying “MRP doesn’t give enough credit to communication, there is great value in communicating honestly and openly, and your wife is competent and will work for the relationship”.
Let’s go back and look at the communications/signals table - MRP has no problem with anything that ends up signalling domination (provided sufficient SMV), alpha or good beta. It is only the blue signals we don’t want. Are honestly communicated blue signals really beneficial?
I don’t believe that, and I’m not sure Blarg believes it either. I don’t think Blarg is blue, on the contrary I believe he is alpha and dominant enough that his wife is submissive, which is why they can communicate. His understanding of the role communication plays is just flawed, but he has lots of other shit going for him so it all works just fine anyway.
Most of the vets are there, with wives who have submitted, who work to provide value for her man and her family, who communicate properly most of the time. It’s a natural consequence of the man being alpha and dominant, it’s exactly what the classic MRP first mate metaphor is.
If you contrast Communication Doesn't Work....or Maybe... with u/HornsOfApathy's writing, there’s a clear difference. Horns obviously values their communication, the deep connection they have, their shared vision and their mutual respect. But Horns doesn’t highlight his ideas as different than MRP’s, and he clearly understands that all of it is possible because it originates in a D/s dynamic. It’s his dominance and her submission that lets them connect this way, not the other way around. I'm not even sure he communicates anything but alpha, domination and good beta, which is exactly what MRP suggests.
I completely understand the desire for communication and connection, and the satisfaction that can come from indulging it, but it has to happen in the context of the MPR understanding of what you’re signalling. For the true alpha, this is not important because he doesn't signal blue, but some guys are more blue and really need to understand the distinction, and what I find especially unfortunate is that “honest and open communication” is almost an ideology that many were raised with, making it very easy to be led astray.
Another unfortunate concept I've seen thrown around is that this thing with communication and connection is the next level of MRP, some transcendent state. It is not. Maxing dominance and alpha is. If we want to give guys solid advice, that's what we need to tell them. If guys want that deep intimate connection and their wives aren't meeting them, 99% of the time they need more alpha and dominance (and that doesn't mean aggressive or oppressive - true dominance is calm, confident, assertive), not better communication.
And guys who don't want communication, they're not falling short of the final stage of MRP. Some guys are the independent type, or they're assholes. They're not lesser not, they're not worse at romantic relationships. The fact is, guys who lean blue have always looked at assholes and wondered why women put up with it. The simple truth is, all this communicating and listening, it's just not that important. Signalling alpha is.
pass325 6y ago
I think we fall short when we list out a bunch of tactics based on evo psych without acknowledging the importance of interpersonal and social dynamics. Not saying this was done, just adding this to the well written post above.
Without the suggesting to be present, pay attention to feedback and calibrate and alter behavior in a strategic manner to get the results you want- we miss opportunities.
While on the surface it can be apparent that is what “signaling alpha” suggests, it doesn’t fully account for altering behavior based on the dynamics of a specific relationship woman or situation. Of course we can’t give specific advice for every man’s dynamic, but we can certainly stress the importance of the fact that this IS dynamic, and you better be paying attention to feedback, and be informed enough, and flexible enough to alter behavior to get your desired results.
In terms of signals - that is communication. Whether direct or indirect, intentional or unintentional, verbal or nonverbal, your behavior will always create a state, feeling, or reaction in another person, and how that person may feel/behave will be based on their own perceptions/beliefs/feelings. Signaling is subcommunication. If you aren’t paying attention to how your behavior impacts that person’s behavior, and the suggestion is to just “signaling alpha”, I think that you miss an opportunity to take your relationship and your impact on her to the next level.
Again, I want to stress that I know the original post doesn’t imply you blindly throw alpha signals at everything. I’m just stressing the point of how dynamic this can actually be.
In your communication, you are either conditioning her to be responsive, or unresponsive.
I feel stressing building an alpha identity, not just frame of mind relays/signals/sub-communicates consistent unwavering dominance, that is unmistakeable and hard to contest. If your identity is alpha, you naturally sub communicate dominance.
That being said, If you reek of dominance and are in a relationship, but can’t emote, can’t do beta basics, this is poor communication. Poor communication sucks, no matter how strong your frame is. Poor communication, poor sub communication, no matter if you are superior alpha or super beta boy, typically leads to a breakdown in the relationship.
I’ve found that teaching guys to be more aware of how their behavior is affecting their women, and ensuring they check in with themselves to see if it’s getting them closer or further from their goals creates results. I would say that it is always about effective communication -verbal or non verbal.
Sepean 6y ago
That wasn't done. This is not some arm chair evo psych theorizing, it is based on experience, and it is supposed to encompass what is important about "interpersonal and social dynamics" within the scope of sexual strategy.
If there are other important factors, what are they? Learning more, improving the model, that would be welcome.
I tried to explain the terms and be precise as best I could, by looking at how you communicate on one hand, and what you signal with the other. I like that definition and distinction better than calling signals subcommunication - you can signal something with very direct and overt communication.
I'm not sure what you're saying here - I think we agree? Good beta is on the signals list because it is important.
It's a bit more complicated than that imo. Some guys don't want to emote and can't be bothered with signalling even good beta. Plate spinners and u/red-sfpplus for example, and it works fine for their goals. Even in LTRs, it seems alphas can get away with very low levels of beta signalling - though it does come at a cost of some freak outs when they fail comfort tests, but it doesn't seem to be a deal breaker in most cases, or to have much if any cost on attraction.
Alpha and domination signals, however, if you don't do those, your relationship is going to suck, big time.
pass325 6y ago
We agree on all counts. Re stating that my comment was not intended to imply you are giving theoretical evo psych advice without any personal evidence or experience. It was to say that IF we are to get lost in those theories, without paying attention to the dynamics of individual situations, we miss opportunities.
“I tried to explain the terms and be precise as best I could, by looking at how you communicate on one hand, and what you signal with the other. I like that definition and distinction better than calling signals subcommunication - you can signal something with very direct and overt communication.”
“If there are other important factors, what are they? Learning more, improving the model, that would be welcome.”
RStonePT 6y ago
Man you've articulate this better than I could. The one thing I've noticed as I continue on isn't even that I could be more open or honest at this point.
I don't get the point.
I've had times where my ol' lady is emoting, talking, conversing and I shut it down (especially when she's asking about my inner thoughts) because if I open up about stuff in my own inner monologue then she starts talking about it, nudging it in this director or that and I don't have the time for it all.
Fuck, I just want to dwell on shit for a bit without having to fucking justify it. If I'm in a bad mood just let me be in a bad mood, it's not her fault and I'll be over it in an hour.
The part I hate about this open communication is instead of me felling something, processing it and moving on it encourages me to dwell on it, to ponder it, to consider the alternative viewpoints and assure her that she's still a good person and none of it is her fault and ...
It's supposed to be easy. I fuck her into a comma and she sleeps in on Saturday till noon while I get some shit done. She doesn't give a shit about my feelings anyways other than in how they relate to her, and I'm fine with that.
SKRedPill 6y ago
My mum's driving my beta dad crazy over this right now. And he has no power to tell her to be quiet - he'll just get scornfully dismissed. Her dad on the other hand when he was alive only ever needed to glare at his daughter and it would get her quiet and apologizing. The difference is obvious. Mum couldn't betaize her dad, but my dad, got he belongs in the beta Hall of fame and he can't see what's wrong. My grandpa is mum's hero, my dad is "ugh... "
Actually the problem is the average mind generates tens of thousands of thoughts and emotions a day, most of it is just junk. Only half a dozen good ideas among that list even get stuff done. The rest is mental masturbation basically, eating up all your energy.
Sometimes it's a genuine catharsis, but when it becomes a habit, it's an addiction. Sometimes you really need to snap out of it and get back to reality. That shit actually doesn't allow a relationship to happen - it doesn't even let sex happen. And it will always end up in some kind of negative shit.
If it were up to me I'd call it environmental pollution.
Sepean 6y ago
Exactly. At some point you're signalling all the alpha you can (at the effort you're willing to put in at least), you've told her all you want her to do, there's sufficient good beta.
At that point, do you get more by communicating more - and what would you be signalling?
Is there any metric on which your relationship's quality would improve, aside from your possible enjoyment of communicating, which is of course highly subjective?
RStonePT 6y ago
It sounds like it is to relationships what xbox and weed is to singledom.
Sure, some people can do it and do well in life, most can't and it's a waste of time anyways
ImNotSlash 6y ago
"If they can't solve your problem they don't need to hear it."
Don't know the source.
weakandsensitive 6y ago
Solution to this is making it clear that she only gets access if she can handle it.
RStonePT 6y ago
Yeah, that's a case for her to make, I ain't gonna do it for her.
weakandsensitive 6y ago
Basic leadership -- set the expectation and adjust to how capable people are of handling information.
e.g. Coronavirus as a pandemic to drive irrational fear.
RStonePT 6y ago
Don't get me started on that
johneyapocalypse 6y ago
Less important than starting is finishing.
Speaking of which, what's the story with your book!?
Have you hit the big-time yet?
RStonePT 6y ago
Final edits almost finished. I got a setback with editor issues so I had to finish the last 5 chapters with an alternate
HornsOfApathy 6y ago
This is a great post, Sepean. I think most will think it's a counter to what Blarg wrote about in his post Communication Doesn't Work... or Maybe...
But I think it's a greater explanation of the same mental model.
To cut to the chase, I think this sums it up:
Communication from a place of neediness is never, ever good. And everyone agrees with that.
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You are absolutely 100% spot on. The connection that I have with my wife would not exist in the absence of some kind of D/s dynamic - whether enhanced greatly as I have done as the cornerstone of the relationship, or through natural alpha dominance signaling. It is my belief (like yours here) that varying levels of Dominance and submission (which I concluded with in my post here) bring to the front of that relationship our natural evolutionary psychology that resides deeply within our brains and creates a more natural mental model (for both man and woman) that allows us to focus on just enjoying everything outside of the struggle of adopting that framework.
Once adopting the natural D/s dynamic, I found that it gave me back my most precious asset: time. Time to deepen the relationship in other areas by focusing on things outside of it. As /u/RStonePT says: Relationships are the woman's job. I don't focus on the relationship. She does and always will. When I divert all my focus to things that support her ability to focus on the relationship it accomplishes the goal of training and having a woman that adds value to my life.
My ideas are no different than MRP's. I mentally model them in a more formalized, congruent, and polarizing way that serves me, and in that servitude it greatly benefits and serves my woman so that she can add value to my life and I to hers.
Do I fuckup and signal blue sometimes? Sure. But fucking hell that feedback is VERY immediate and felt quickly since I live in such polarity with my woman. Do I get away with it? Yeah, because I've "maxed out my Dominance and alpha" and the SMV gap is real... or at least.... perceived by us within the D/s dynamic to be as real as real can be. It's the frame we have both chosen to live in.
Having your woman adopt and ACCEPT that dynamic is the real secret sauce and is only done through authenticity and congruence to who you are. And you better damned well be Alpha and Dominant to complete the circle.
Here's one to dabble: My wife doesn't shit test me very often. Maybe once a month. But if I really wanted to manipulate her, I could signal blue on purpose, so that she would shit test me. Then I could crush that shit test with an A+++++. What if THAT is a good (manipulative) reason to signal blue? To create the rollercoaster of feelz? I've been working on a post for that idea for a while now and this helps me get closer to articulating it.
Sepean 6y ago
I'd been sitting on the ideas behind my post for some time, wanting to write it up - this motivated me to get it done, but it wasn't just for countering Blarg.
I tried to make it clear that I think there's a significant difference between what Blarg does and what he wrote. I certainly meant to counter some of what he wrote. If MRP is wrong and/or incomplete as he said, then we should be in the process of revising MRP. It's a fucking big deal when core concepts are challenged like that.
What I wanted to do here was present a stringent model for why and how why communicate, what it signals, clarify which signals fall within MRP and which are outside of it, and present some common pitfalls in beliefs about communication.
With that understanding, we could move on to clarify if some of MRP needs to be revised. I don't believe that is the case, but I'm open to looking at it critically.
InChargeMan 6y ago
Some thoughts:
Communication is good, but it is important to define WHAT is communicated. I not only allow, I REQUIRE my wife to communicate all of her feels. She is mine, and I need to know the status of my things, just like how I don't ignore my check engine light. What she is not allowed to communicate is how I need to act or respond to that information. She knows that her own feelings are fickle and situational. She trusts me to lead her and the family 100%. I view all information available to me in my life, discard what doesn't apply or interest me, and act on what does (inaction is action too). Rinse and repeat.
Manipulative behavior is not tolerated. i.e. don't tell me something because you want me to act the way you want. I will act the way I see appropriate and those around me can get off the bus at any time.
Regarding "relationships are the woman's job", unfortunately it is becoming a pattern, but I disagree with Rian on this too. Everything is my responsibility, especially relationships. But the way I am responsible for relationships is in me defining what form of relationship or behavior withing that relationship will be acceptable to me. Not just my wife, EVERY person who gets to be in some sort of relationship with me has to drive within the bounds of the lanes I establish. "Relationships are the woman's job" to me implies almost a passive-aggressive approach, where "if she doesn't treat me right I'll show her and up the dread and THEN she'll know I'm high value and treat me the way I deserve." I'd rather just be up front about how I expect the relationship to be structured and make sure that it is abundantly clear when I am both pleased and displeased about something. She can do whatever she wants. I don't tell her what to do, I tell her what she has to do to please me.
Red and blue is an abstraction. The distinction for me is leading and following. I lead, she follows. Sometimes I lead her into long fulfilling discussions of feels and emotions, sometimes I lead her into multi-hour endeavors of debauchery. Call it red or blue, doesn't matter to me, I see it all as leading, with the goal of maximizing my happiness.
HornsOfApathy 6y ago
I agree. To me that is a boundary.
Then they must drive in that lane. It's her responsibility to do so. That's the job that I see. I set the job description, it's her job to execute that job. Relationship then becomes her job description.
whackywhale 6y ago
Is it weird to have her not shit test you?
HornsOfApathy 6y ago
No. I shit test myself enough.
whackywhale 6y ago
Do you shit test her? And what do you do if she fails the shit test?
HornsOfApathy 6y ago
Yeah, but only with the tip of my cock. If she fails she will take an enema.
Seriously wtf, do I look like a woman to you?
whackywhale 6y ago
Just curious questions
weakandsensitive 6y ago
Stone + Bogey have this addressed. Fake drama.
What the fuck does this even mean if you're fully congruent?
HornsOfApathy 6y ago
Just means I try to (erroneously) put labels on shit that I do that I think is retarded sometimes and wish to change.
Fake drama - are you along the same lines that creating drama is necessary? Otherwise she gets bored in my experience.
johneyapocalypse 6y ago
Fake drama is gay. You know, for gay people. H-o-m-o-sexuals.
What the fuck are you talking about? Where's red?
InChargeMan 6y ago
Agreed, never understood or agreed with those who do that. I need less drama in my life...
RStonePT 6y ago
It's not drama to you, that's the point. It's a nothing emotional spike that you don't care about arent invested in and can drop in a heartbeat.
But it gets her to feel so she doesn't dump shit on your doorstep when you weren't expecting it.
Maximus_Valerius 6y ago
I learned this from you last year and use it all the time. It doesn’t matter if I’m creating a positive emotional spike or negative spike, so long as there is emotional tension, it’s all good. In fact, I enjoy the hell out of it.
Mini-field report: Two weeks ago, wife got cranky and I told her to fuck off. She got mad and walked away. Moved to the guest room. Even took her dresser with her. Silent treatment all week. I mocked her and had fun with it. Thursday she said, “I bet you think you won because I talked first.” I laughed. Sex on Sunday. Yesterday, she asked me to help her move dresser back in to my room. I did and we joked and laughed about it the whole time.
I could see how nice guys looking for a “smooth problem-free life” might want to avoid creating negative emotional spikes. Giving it a go might help them get past that issue. I know it helped me.
RStonePT 6y ago
Love it. It's such a nothing argument and she did some lifting..
It's win win
InChargeMan 6y ago
Why aren't you giving her feels through the normal channels? Sounds lazy.
RStonePT 6y ago
What is a normal channel... and how does that manage external drama inducing events and why does it matter how hard one works with game for it to be useful?
InChargeMan 6y ago
A hard fuck or deepthroat training is my go-to. I also do maintenance spankings, but I don't don't believe you're on that boat.
You can only "manage" things within your control, the rest is not your concern. If there is some external drama that I don't feel is healthy for my wife I will "manage" it as I see fit, including removing her exposure to said drama.
You playing retarded relationship games to artificially induce fights effectively manages external events? Is this like pinching yourself to distract yourself from another pain? "No babe, don't be upset at your mom, look over here at your dancing monkey husband, look how upset I can make you too."... I know I'm exaggerating your position, but this is what I think when I hear the idea of manufactured drama.
Lazy is not the same as efficient. I'm fucking efficient at creating feels, but I don't have to pretend I'm something I'm not to get there. Also, eventually that "one weird trick" wears off, then you are left searching for the next one. Meanwhile ICM's been living the good life on the golden road he paved long ago.
RStonePT 6y ago
This is about as good useful a statement as me saying your maintenance spankings are spousal abuse.
Which I have in the toolbox as well, and I really find that passive aggressive shit to be cunty behaviour. Now I'm wondering why you are going full retard on as simple a concept as push/pull; well, not specifically push pull, but only the ways you don't do it. I mean, I don't care to stick things up my ass but don't really care that SFPLUS likes it and it works for him.
I suppose it depends on whether this is a good faith swapping of notes or some sort of bad faith, PPD alpha-male flex. wekacuck and iamthegreasypole were way better at it if so
For anyone reading
OP is hearing it wrong, and described a reactive way of push/pull. If it sounds retarded the way he's framed it, thats because it is. When a girl feels something there is no point in trying to tell her it's wrong. If it's at the point where you're getting foot stomping drama at your doorstep because mom pissed her off it's already too late.
The point is not to be afraid of her emotions, to neg and prod, and fuck with her just for funsies. It scratches that itch a girl needs just as much as a hard spanking does. This is so when the time somes for mom in law to start some shit, she doesn't need that drama itch scratched and she doesn't come to you and project her mother's drama at you.
So /u/InChargeMan, why not save the piss and vinegar for the newbies, because your brow beating shaming language ain't gonna do shit here.
InChargeMan 6y ago
Which statement? You asked what my normal methods of allowing for emotional release are. Asked and answered.
​
People who are insecure on a topic tend to mislabel statements of fact as personal attacks. " I also do maintenance spankings, but I don't don't believe you're on that boat. " Is a statement on what I do, and directly acknowledging that it isn't for everybody, and you've never piped up about D/s in the past, so my assumption is that you don't do it. You might want to think about why this triggered you so much.
​
Lol, me stating my position isn't shaming language. Why u mad bro?
Swapping notes doesn't work if you are emotionally vested in your point of view as an extension of your ego.
My position stated plainly: If you intentionally change the way you behave to cause a fight or conflict it might enable short term release of emotional energy, but at the cost of long term stability. If her captain is 95% the oak and 5% retarded in her eyes, is that better?
​
For you that may be true. I am the 100% trusted leader in our relationship. I can and do tell her if she is wrong, even when her reactionary emotions are at warp 10. She has learned to trust me, trust my judgement, and accept that although her feels are real, she will back down, deescalate, and have comfort that she can trust me to be the steady captain regulating things. After the emotions have passed she thanks me for being her rock. Just so we're clear, this is a note on me, not an attack on you.
HornsOfApathy 6y ago
Sepean asks if there is ever a good reason to communicate in a faggot way. And says no.
Agreed.
I'm theorizing there might be, on purpose, to manipulate your woman into giving you a shit test you can crush so she feelz your frame. Sounds awfully incongruent but that's the point.
Not saying it's wise. Was just trying to answer the only possible scenario I could see.
Sepean 6y ago
Isn't that what all this D/s stuff is about? Instead of waiting for a shit test to signal stronger alpha and domination, you make her do something unpleasant.
HornsOfApathy 6y ago
It could be. But I'm not the type of Dom that's wants her submission as a response to something I do by "being alpha" through direct domination.
For me, domination is to be used as a reminder of the safe place and submissive mental model that SHE desires, bot because I demand her submission. Submission is a choice, and anything other than framing it as her choice is strong arming Alpha 1.0 bullshit through coercion.
Some Doms force submission through their dominance - either through unpleasant acts, humiliation, forced servitude.... but that, in my opinion, does not fit the model of what I desire nor the MRP models that have proven works long term.
RStonePT 6y ago
subs run the relationship anyways or there wouldn't be such a thing as safewords.
It's roleplay, manufactured domination, if anything my manufactured outrage is just the diluted version of Dom/Sub
Sepean 6y ago
Well, you’re not the type of Dom who signals blue either, which you’re suggesting, so you’re about to thread new ground either way ;)
Btw, I prefer to only talk when I know what I’m talking about - here I’m just throwing ideas out, so be critical.
The way I interpret you wanting to instigate a shit test is that you’re out of ways to signal more alpha than what you’re already doing. The guys who suggest creating drama get around that by being assholes - they signal +alpha -beta, she freaks out, they pass the comfort test with +beta. Net result is +alpha and rollercoaster feelz.
You suggest signalling blue ie. -alpha, which then hopefully very quickly triggers a shit test that you then pass, hopefully with ++alpha so you get a net positive.
This sounds backwards to me, and in risk of not going positive alpha, especially if she just goes “huh Horns is off his game today, I’ll be a nice girl and hope his balls grow back tomorrow”.
The way I see the harder BDSM stuff, the sub understands that the “creating drama” process is good for their relationship. The formula is the same, the Dom is degrading her instead of being an asshole, and then gives aftercare instead of just passing the comfort test. The sub understands that she likes being with a man that signals a ton of alpha, and the -beta of the degradation followed by the +beta of aftercare is an emotional rollercoaster of the good kind, so they ritualised it.
Maybe you don’t do that now, but given that you’re in a D/s relationship trying something like that seems like a more obvious and congruent route than creating drama or signalling blue to trigger a shit test.
HornsOfApathy 6y ago
I suggest signaling +beta to instigate a shit test for net result: beta+ and alpha++ (or just alpha+). Same result as being an asshole.
I wouldn't ever do it though, just pure hamsturbating here.
Yeah it's a risk against just being congruently alpha to solicit a comfort test. It is backwards. Trying to solicit a shit test.
You don't have to degrade to complete the formula. Removing a subs a ability to provide the Dom pleasure is enough. Sub is still aware that the Dom is creating drama on purpose, unlike just being an secret asshole to create drama.
If my wife is bad, I remove my time and attention, which removes her ability to please me, which signals alpha (I don't need you - I'm outcome independent) and removes the most joyful part of her purpose: to please me.
She still desires strong alpha and holds anticipation until she can get it again.
Cloudy_Pirate 6y ago
I liked Blargs post for the discussion it generated. But it was over my head. This was clear and accessible.
But the bottom line for me is still this: when in doubt, STFU.
Cl_ARK 6y ago
I'll take a stab...
I get a better connection to my wife's emotional vulnerability when we communicate on the level Blarg describes. That's something I enjoy having access to. I couldn't have had that as an unattractive, weak, needy person. Who wants to share their raw self with an insecure leech who is going to poke at the flaws as soon as they are exposed?
But coming from secure place, you get access to things like that. And there's nothing detrimental, in my experience, from being there. Quite the opposite.
The extent of the MRP take on that, as far as I can gather, is that it's not OK to enjoy that. Or as you say, it's an indulgence. I think it's a pretty deep part of the human experience. To put it in the "indulgence" bucket is....limiting.
Guys come to this part of the internet, basically, because they don't know how to swim and almost drowned in the ocean.
MRP canon says "It's dangerous for guys who can't swim to go swim in the ocean. Learn to swim. And stay away from the ocean - you're going to fucking drown out there."
That's good advice for a guy who can't swim.
So you learn to swim in a pool.
Once you mastered swimming, it's not quite so unsafe to go out in the ocean.
And if you want to surf, eventually you've got to go back to the ocean.
The fact that you're a great swimmer doesn't mean you can't possibly drown. The risk is part of the thrill. And a guy who doesn't surf because, when he couldn't swim, he internalized that the ocean is too dangerous....is missing out.
If surfing isn't your thing, great. I'm not saying everyone should surf. But there's a well established subculture who derive deep meaning from it, who would rightly scoff at it simply being labeled as an "indulgence"....which as I read your model, is where it would fit.
Sepean 6y ago
I don't think there's anything wrong with indulging yourself. I'd say a lot of the hard work that people do is exactly so they can indulge themselves.
Going with your analogy, in the context of moving efficiently and safely on water, we have sailing. Surfing is for fun - it's risky and slow.
If you want to surf, fine. But if you begin saying that guys who use ships are doing it wrong and surfing is better, you got some wires crossed. Obviously for most of the stuff people do on water, they should be using ships, and you should too. That's how you get shit done. Once that's done, you can go enjoy surfing in your spare time.
johneyapocalypse 6y ago
Nice post dude.
simbarlion 6y ago
Are you really going to go with that comment to make your grand re-entrance?
At least give me something a little poetic, even esoteric....ffs lol.
Praexology 6y ago
What are you asking, does it work for what? Ultimately this comes down to the asker - what do I want out of xyz relationship.
If I'm trying to derive enjoyment or pleasure out of a relationship then I am the only point of focus to consider. Going full narcissist for a second, if I want to call my gf an inbred and disgusting pig because I get off on making her cry, than all be I'll do it. I can communicate as openly and honestly as I want-who cares what she thinks or feels because I get what I want, so long as I'm comfortable with the fallout/can deviate the consequences.
Or are you asking to what ends does communcation work to bolster and maintain a gratifying relationship. I'd say depends: Communication can be used to amplify (or obviously degrade) the personal value of a relationship, but it isn't neccessary to having a valuable relationship.
I could theoretically have one plate for talking to cause I like talking to her, and one plate for sex cause I like sexing her.
Sepean 6y ago
In the context of MRP, it means working as a part of your sexual strategy. What you do for your personal enjoyment is your business, and that may be effective, irrelevant or counterproductive to sexual strategy.
Praexology 6y ago
While I recognize MRPs spoken goal is sexual strategy, everything I've seen and read points more toward relationship strategy.
Sepean 6y ago
Relationship strategies are sexual strategies.
Anyway, we're splitting hairs. I think we agree on what MRP is about, and how effective communication on this subreddit is as it relates to that (and on r/satellites or r/marketing, effective communication would be something else).
weakandsensitive 6y ago
Probably simpler than this treatise is the fact that most men (and people in general) don't know how to communicate effectively.
Neither of you defined communication. While you implied it with your signals, neither of you explicitly pointed out that the vast majority of mouth sounds don't matter.
Does communication work? Absolutely. Do most people know how to communicate? I'd argue not.
Meh.
Sepean 6y ago
A lot of MRP is about how you communicate effectively, which is mostly how you signal alpha. There are very specific instructions on how to handle shit tests, game and other similar things.
What I tried to do here was give a framework that would let us look at communication and signalling stringently. That's a good tool for people to use in evaluating their own, and for us to discuss if there really is anything missing/wrong in MRP, as was suggested.
BostonBrakeJob 6y ago
It's so damn easy when you know what you want, and understand that the person in front of you is under no obligation to give it to you.
johneyapocalypse 6y ago
Agreed, but sepean's post is worthwhile anyway, especially considering the majority of douchebags here don't meet the two criteria you've brought up.
dnos111 6y ago
That's a super useful nugget of insight there!
Freakshow27 6y ago
A definition would be helpful. In blarg’s communication post, I took open and honest communication to mean discussing feelings and emotions as opposed to agreeing on what color to paint the bathroom.
I may have got that wrong though.
Sepean 6y ago
I agree it was vague, which is why it probably got away with the more outlandish claims.
Part of my goal with my post was to make more stringent definitions, so we could discuss the issue rigorously.
SteelSharpensSteel 6y ago
I had to parse this, but very well written, and overall I agree with all of your points.
Going back to Blarg's post, here are the relevant aspects:
"Level 4) How we COMMUNICATE those feelings: This is more along the lines of communication. Not acting the feelings out, but expressing them openly and honestly, or openly but dishonestly. IE, "I have a problem and I want you to know it" vs. "I have a problem and you should do something about it." It's hoping that by letting the problem be known and offering it up in it's entirety, that the world will help take care of it, rather than having you bare the burden yourself.
These 4 are listed in order of increasingly being open about the problem. In 1 we keep it totally to ourselves. It just is. In 2 we decide to tackle it within ourselves using our thoughts. In 3 we outwardly express the RESULT (action) of the problem. In 4 we outwardly communicate the feelings themselves. 1 is least vulnerable. 4 is most vulnerable.
MRP seems to handle the first three. They get you to explore yourself and realize that yes you do feel emotions. They give you framework to think about what those emotions mean within yourself. And they give you ways to show the world via your actions that you are feeling. And after you get deep on the dread ladder, MRP even suggests some of 4, the "I have a problem and if you know what's good for you, you'll fix it". But MRP almost shuns open and honest communication of a problem. And I think that's because deep down, MRP is afraid of the potential for rejection of that problem when it's laid bare. The point being:
And I think, again, that the above clearly accents that our resistance to having to communicate our needs is a buffer because we are AFRAID to communicate our needs, in the belief that it reduces that "magical" natural desire of getting them fulfilled without communication, AND because we are afraid they could be rejected. And much of the time they will be rejected because those who we tell them to are not ready or able to change themselves. That is a slow, methodical process that we work with them on. That's what marriage is. That's her following your lead. But getting her to a point where open and honest communication is possible, while it does necessitate a killing in some form of the magical mysterious natural desire, puts in it's place a CHOSEN desire...the decision for your wife to understand what you want and CHOOSE to fulfill it. Which, in my mind, I'm quite alright with. Negotiation is settling and unwanted compliance. But chosen desire is a different beast.
Communication as we understood and used it before was simply one big covert contract because "I want" meant "I expect", and was always covertly followed by "and if you don't." We would assume that we communicated our idea and it would be acted on as if simply stating something meant others had to consider and act on it. As if our communication set an expectation that through some unseen force had to be met...just because we are who we are...we are special. But then we would contradict our own uniqueness in our head. We would almost instantly devise the scenario of what we would do if that need or want that was communicated was not met, how we would react down the road as punishment or reward for following our communication.
What communication in my marriage is however is a direct line to and from my vision. And that direction is given freely, with the option to be followed or ignored freely"
There's a lot of talk in here about communication and feelings and vision, but honestly, I do NOT think that talking about your feelings is the way to go.
Exactly. Sure you can talk about vision. You can communicate from your frame, from a alpha and dominant position. But to have open communication about your feelings or as you say the "blue", that's a big no.
WNS also makes a good point noting that men and women (APALT) don't know how to communicate well. I would add on top of that that men tend to communicate DIRECTLY, and women tend to communicate INDIRECTLY. We are led to believe as men that we can communicate openly and honestly, and that's how the world works. That's not 100% how things operate in the real world.