EDIT: fixed for link reference
One of the frontpage posts today is about a study involving puppies. The original poster used the following title: "In a group of 98 puppies (39 German shepherds, 44 Labrador retrievers and 15 golden retrievers) who were bred to become guide dogs for people with visual disabilities, it wasn't the pups who got the most licks and milk on demand that were most likely to succeed. It was the ones who didn’t." (The study is not linked here, please click through the Reddit link below.)
Essentially, puppies which were the least "spoiled" (i.e. nurtured beyond necessity for developmental growth; no puppy was developmentally stunted) were the most successful. The article includes the following quote:
As these gently-stressed babies grow into their own, they display better abilities to navigate around obstacles, to cope with unfamiliar settings and objects, and to suppress their instinctual responses than do dogs who commanded the lion’s share of mom’s milk and attention.
U-TURN MOMENT: Wow, I went to build a curated list and the entire comment thread has been nuked, more or less. Here's an anonymized link: Puppy Thread
Well, I'll try to salvage the topic by sharing what I recall. Take it with a grain of salt since I'm working off of memory and what's cached on mobile right now.
One user said that the outcome should be exactly the opposite. That the puppies who got the most "love" should be the most successful. No explanation given. Simply a fiat assertion.
Someone else suggested that the study was run by white supremacists. It might have been a parody post or meant to be humorous hyperbole, but the responses were pretty telling. "Only in Trump's America would there be a "scientific" study that says it's okay to not love a puppy." Remember, this was not a study about animal abuse, it was a study about not spoiling particular dogs during their development.
Another user said this:
These seems almost intuitive (if you've ever taken a class in psychology). Individuals who are rewarded more frequently for less effort don't value reward as strongly. It's like people and instant gratification. If you're used to getting your reward for minimal time and effort, you end up with ADHD-like behaviour, not valuing reward enough to pursue it.
Which got this response:
Your sources? If you've ever earned a degree in psychology, you should know how easy it is to believe your intuitive narrative, which conveniently supports your preconceived opinions, is the correct explanation. You would also know to understand that these explanations are usually bull.
The irony of that response is so brutal. It made me cringe. "You conclusion is wrong because it supports your narrative. Therefore my narrative-supporting conclusion is correct." The echo chamber is strong with this one.
Many users suggested that the study is invalid; there must've been too small of a sample size and that's why they got the wrong conclusion. There were MANY of these posts, all of them essentially claiming that developing puppies (and by proxy, humans) must be spoiled... and... this is the clincher...
...that if a puppy is spoiled, and ends up failing, it's not because it was spoiled and it's not the puppy's fault. That's only a coincidence. It has to be some external factor causing the puppy to fail.
Man, I really thought this was going to be awesome. But someone has pruned the shit out of that thread. Keep your eye on it for new developments.
bangbrooo 6y ago
Although it's fucking common sense that kids who were given everything in theor life with minimal effort and no adversity will grow up to be narcissistic brats. I'm not sure this puppy study can be extrapolated to humans.
bob13bob 6y ago
don't over apply the findings to support your own beliefs. Be skeptical, always. That's what science is all about. There are some problems with this study.
As mentioned in the thread, you dont' want a supper affectionate dog for a guide dog, too easy to be distracted by people. However these dogs make better companion animals.
The least spoiled canine is the wolf. And there are far more dogs in the world than wolves. Darwin.. affection and dogs were more fit to pass genes on than their wolf cousins. Ironic the term alpha wolf vastly under performed betaism as a strategy for passing genes.
The most dangerous time in a dog's life is not getting adopted by a human; this is the most valid test. Throw all these dogs in the same confine; i'm guessing you would see a cause effect where the most affectionate spoiled dogs survived at much higher rates.
don't cherry pick data, over simplify, and be skeptical.
FlexGunship 6y ago
I think you misunderstand.
My entire point was the response. Doesn't matter what the study said at all. The snowflakes thought their "right to be spoiled" was under attack and the resulting hamstring was off the charts.
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[deleted] 6y ago
People nowadays have forgotten that nature cannot be argued into submission. Biology doesn't care about political correctness.
Your_Coke_Dealer 6y ago
Science only matters to leftists when it suits their agenda.
bangbrooo 6y ago
Science doesn't matter to trumptards and right wingers at all
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[deleted] 6y ago
Which is precisely why men need to quit porn.
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Shaman6624 6y ago
Exactly, and most other dopaminergic hyper-stimulants. (Sugar, TV, Social media, Drugs) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jZd5n17xIU
indecencies 6y ago
Video games.
Which is hard. As fuck.
Shaman6624 6y ago
Totally, some games more then others. the guide on the subreddit stopgaming made me quit. https://gamequitters.com/how-to-quit-playing-video-games/
beta_no_mo 6y ago
I disagree. Like anything else, too much gaming can be detrimental (social skills, physical conditioning, etc), but unlike TV or online browsing, video games enhance reflexes and decision-making skills.
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lyricyst2000 6y ago
I donno...without weed and porn my games seem to have lost their attractive quality all together.
My $2k PC is pretty much a paperweight.
indecencies 6y ago
Learn programming, marketing, writing, modeling, or art and make use of it. Hell, use it for SETI (Search for Extraterrestial Life) and leave it on in the background and maybe you'll make way towards the discovery of aliens for hell's sake. Why not.
lyricyst2000 6y ago
I work in software. I was being a bit facetious.
I like the SETI idea though, never thought of that.
Kinbaku_enthusiast 6y ago
Sunk costs don't matter. The time you were wasting costed more than that computer.
lyricyst2000 6y ago
That's a pretty good perspective to live by.
-Sent from my $2k paperweight
Augustuscrassus 6y ago
Fucking this. After I found TRP I cut out gaming for a long time. Just starting playing league on and off again and it isn't the same.
I did waste a lot of money on gaming over the years, but what I truly regret is the amount of time wasted. If I used half the time spent gaming into a hobby like MMA or guitar I'd be much better off for it.
chexmixa 6y ago
LOL, and here i thought this post was about puppies.
SamuraiPizzaCatz 6y ago
Welcome to TRP where everything is about no porn and cold showers.
DeNovaCain 6y ago
Can confess. Used to watch porn while taking hot showers
Solipsistic_guy 6y ago
And meditation. I doubt how many people actually follow this one.
TimmySatanicTurner 6y ago
lmao that cold showers always gets me. been doing it for over a decade even before reddit existed.
shit aint magic.
Twentyfivedeep 6y ago
I feel like cold showers are more of a Nofap thing. They won't shut up about it.
SamuraiPizzaCatz 6y ago
Must've bled into here, cause all I see are posts about no porn, meditation, cold showers, and other nofap techniques/talks of dopamine receptor fatigue.
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Twentyfivedeep 6y ago
I've seen none of that in months. Everything on here is PUA tactics or anti-feminist/PC culture stuff.
SamuraiPizzaCatz 6y ago
Shit dude, I'm following your ass from now on.
max_peenor 6y ago
If I spent $60,000 on a degree in psychology and ended up talking like this, I'd shoot myself in the head. If you believe your own ideas, then you are full of shit, thus I win the argument. Wow...
Sumsar01 6y ago
In my experience people who ask for refs are always full of shit.
max_peenor 6y ago
If your argument is an appeal to common sense, sure. If you are in any way attempting to establish fact, you better have some facts and data or you will be mocked and ridiculed.
Sumsar01 6y ago
Well, if people have a well established argument they will usually not need to see the so called facts, they will be able to come with a counter argument. It is usually something people say when what is being said messes with their belief system.
max_peenor 6y ago
So called facts?
Do you work for CNN?
Sumsar01 6y ago
There are no such things as fact in the real world only in mathematics or logic. In the real world, there are only models that converge towards nature/truth.
max_peenor 6y ago
That's retarded.
Water is wet.
Rocks are hard.
Manifest facts exist all around us.
Sumsar01 6y ago
How are those facts?
Water is wet is a definition. So that would be self-extrapolation. You could probably call that fact if you want.
and a rock is hard is also arbitrary. Hardness is a description of a materials bendiness. So it's true that compared to a human (which I guess is the unmentioned reference frame) a rock is very hard. But you need to specify compared to what is it hard. compared to diamond, for example, it's not very hard. So you can only say that a rock is hard in reference to something else.
Urishima 6y ago
My family had 2 dogs so far, 2 Boxers. Something we learned quickly is that a certain amount of 'harshness' is needed to properly socialize them and turn them into a companion you can place your trust in. And not only that, setting clear boundaries for your dog and being consistent with them also shows your dog that you have your shit together and that they can trust you to be the leader.
Oh and stop talking in a soft voice to your dog when giving them commands. They are never going to take you seriously. Speak clearly and with a stern tone.
Trucks_N_Chainsaws 6y ago
Millennials are on suicide watch because of this study. Fucking amazing.
SamuraiPizzaCatz 6y ago
TBF it actually isn't the puppy's fault that it failed. It's the dumb ass human's fault who raised it like shit that the puppy failed.
Dogs can't exactly outperform their upbringing the way a human can sit there and re-wire their poor upbringing. Train a dog like shit and it'll do what it's been told is right, all to please little old you.
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SamuraiPizzaCatz 6y ago
I'm looking for the answer to that question myself, bruv.
The only thing I can think of doing is logging my thoughts in a journal, talking to more positive people, ignoring anything that doesn't benefit my life (thoughts, politics, etc), and creating a sort of negative attribute thought web to really get a grasp of what I'm missing and what to change.
For example: I sit and really think about who I am, how I behave, where my head goes. I write down (example) "I am reclusive -> I fix this by saying 'yes' to invitations more often". Or, "I am actually pretty lazy -> I fix this by making a routine of completing small, mundane tasks".
FlexGunship 6y ago
From what I understand, no one interfered with the puppies, it was just whatever happened naturally during their litter's development.
In general, a dog isn't a conscious agent for the purposes of this discussion. I agree that success or failure is not literally up to the agency of the puppy. But the mere suggestion that over-nurturing an animal could be detrimental was essentially heresy to a most-vocal part of the Reddit population.
I'm not a scientist and I have no dog in this fight. ;)
SamuraiPizzaCatz 6y ago
Oh, don't get me wrong, anybody who opposes the fact that stress and discipline absolutely make dogs perform better are retards.
They even did a study that showed that dogs, when praised and scolded erratically, performed much better than those either exclusively praised or exclusively scolded. In fact, IIRC, the praised dogs basically acted like cats, listening whenever they felt like it.
I'm actually an avid believer in the fact that most people shouldn't own dogs. Too many stupid people causing bans and negative stigmas attached to specific breeds that, otherwise, are great companions.
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Shaman6624 6y ago
The logic is that if your brain gets to much dopamine it downregulates the amount of dopamine receptors. Meaning that you will feel less reward for doing the same thing. Meaning that you will find things you used to think were interesting dull.
When you take away overstimulation of the brains reward system however the amount of receptors go up again which means that you will be more motivated to do even the most dull tasks because they just seem that much more interesting.
Kinbaku_enthusiast 6y ago
Day 84 of trying to break my overstimulation. I'm able to do things I never could before and I have more patience and gratitude.
MattyAnon Admin 6y ago
This is great..... I love to see what happens when the narrative collides with scientific fact.
Everyone knows that abuse is bad. Everyone knows that spoiling children (and puppies) is bad. Glad we've got a study that shows it, at least for puppies.
It's only some crazed SJW left wing nonsense narrative in which there can be any suggestion that it's in the child / puppy's best interests to receive unlimited attention.
scammi 6y ago
Women from the Inca empire breast feed their kids on the floor, standing in four, so the kid would`t be too comfortable and worm. They though that doing so prevented the kid from becoming weak.
Solipsistic_guy 6y ago
On a side note, this explains why I have been successful in adulthood. Childhood oppression ftw. Suffering builds character.
[deleted] 6y ago
I need to be a even bigger dick to my son.
FlexGunship 6y ago
Or just mild challenge. I was raised in a pretty low income family of five (back when low income was ACTUALLY low income). Had loving parents, great stay-at-home mom, but went at least one Christmas without gifts.
I'm absolutely stronger for it. There's no doubt in my mind. I owe my parents so much. In their older age, they're great friends to me also.
Augustuscrassus 6y ago
As someone who was spoiled until he was 22, I actually envy people like you. It feels now that my parents were actually useless. I didn't want for anything, and I didn't appreciate shit.
Although abusive, my mother was one of those people who wouldn't let her child cut up vegetables for fear that I would cut myself. First time I did my own laundry, I was 22 when I moved out. Put that into perspective of what kind of helicopter parents I had.
Be proud of how you were raised. It teaches you that everything must be earned. A lesson I had to teach myself. When you see struggle and hardship you understand what it is truly like to appreciate the good times. I would trade my upbringing for yours any day.
perplexedm 6y ago
Thought that post was somehow linked to GOOG engineer's memo.
afkb39sdfb 6y ago
This explains the everyone is special and gets a trophy millenial generation and that's why they don't like it. So many of them are entitled and narcissistic, they want to be coddled by daddy government as adults like real mommy and daddy did when they were kids. That's why so many want basic income, free health care, free college, and of course want everyone else to pay for it like mommy and daddy did when they were children. As children they were handed everything and had all their problems solved by mommy and daddy, so now as adults they expect the world to hand them everything and solve all their problems is well.
Augustuscrassus 6y ago
I agree with the rest of your post but what is your issue with basic income? As automation advances UBI will become a necessity or else we face a severe economic crisis. What is your solution to this problem aside from UBI or a negative income tax as a replacement for the toxic welfare system?
bangbrooo 6y ago
Nothing wrong with free Healthcare either, the Healthcare system in america is a joke. And trump is gonna screw it up even more.
Bestoftherest222 6y ago
This is why the runt of the litter tends to be the best dog in the end. My family has always loved the runt of the litter dogs, we found those dogs were smarter and had a certain fire to them. Guess this would explain some of that.
Kinbaku_enthusiast 6y ago
You can see deleted comments by changing the R in reddit to a C (ceddit) for any link.
It has an old SSL, which means you'll probably get a warning, but this just means the connection isn't encrypted (so don't enter credit card numbers on that site).
Otherwise an old SSL is safe.
Kinbaku_enthusiast 6y ago
Nevermind, it seems the site doesn't work anymore.
FlexGunship 6y ago
Yeah. Tried it, actually.
To be honest, I assumed I didn't remember the URL correctly. Your post confirmed it's death for me.
I also tried the way back machine.. Or whatever it's called. And there wasn't a copy from early enough.
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Solipsistic_guy 6y ago
I'll leave mine in the wilds to be raised by wolves
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