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- Hide Preview | 26 Comments | submitted 7 months ago by Wolfssenger [Post Locked]

I want to disclose a story that I think will give some hope to some of you who think you've been dealt a losing hand.

A bit of background: I'm a entrepreneur who recently set about growing a company a friend(now partner) started. He was very happy with all I'd done for the company, and wanted me to meet his wife and kids. Of course, I was happy to do so. As such, one day his wife came to help us run operations.


Now, I've always been a fan of the saying "Women are born, men are made". I'd be lying if I said I didn't think it came from a slight animus I carry towards women, but I digress. Put simply, women are born with and grow naturally what men seek(youth, fertility, looks), where as men earn what women seek(wealth, confidence, competence). This was an especially raw deal for women who were dealt a bad hand biologically speaking, and there is relatively little to do besides lose weight, wear makeup and adjust the wardrobe. Or so I thought.


You see, my partner's wife was by no means a pretty woman. Speaking frankly, her looks probably ranked in the bottom 25%, but her figure was not bad, you could tell she was fit. Yet, somehow by then end of our day working together, I found myself strangely attracted to this woman. Now, to put this into perspective as objectively as possible, I'd place myself at the 70-75th percentile of men, but definitely improving. I get a fair amount of female attention, and I've turned away women before who I deemed unsuitable as a long term mate. This being disclosed, one would wonder how I found myself attracted to an objectively ugly woman. Besides her being small(my preference), it all lay in demeanor.


Throughout our day, she carried herself in a way that was feminine and confident. She displayed competence in dealing with our customers, but was never combative or competitive in her work. She spoke softly and smiled often, and the few times we spoke she was supportive and complimentary. She brought my partner and I lunch and was attentive to our needs whilst working. Furthermore, in the end of day discussion and planning for the future between my partner and I, she contributed without wresting control of the conversation from either of us.

That is to say, she was demure, pleasant, competent, attentive and feminine. Notice that all of these traits can be cultivated. When I drove home that day, I decided that I would easily rate her as above the majority of women I knew. If there were a woman who was even near average on looks with the same traits, I'd wager I'd be lovestruck in an instant.

Now, I'm much more family/relationship oriented than the average man, so there is a morsel of bias to be had here. However, if it is a committed relationship is what you're after, then allow me to assert that it is men of my ilk you should be after.


The moral of the story is, no matter what biological hand you've been dealt, you can increase your value as a woman dramatically by being feminine, competent, attentive, and pleasant. This is because after braving the world, men need a home. That home is not a house. That home is you.

[-] Kara__El 31 Points 7 months ago

I think both men and women overemphasize the value of looks. I get that RP tells men they have all the power to bring in the most beautiful woman, because they do, but beautiful women can have some of the ugliest personalities, from the entitlement that comes with being so beautiful. My husband has slept with rodeo queens, but married me. I'm no rodeo queen. I'm also not batcrap crazy, like all the rodeo queens he's met.

As for women, we make these ridiculous demands on height and hairline and musculature and none of it REALLY matters, when you're talking about ability to provide and be a good husband and father.

Appearance does matter. I just think we should paint our requirements with a broader brush. Require the POTENTIAL for attraction, as opposed to immediate wowza looks.

[-] Wolfssenger 18 Points 7 months ago

I can't speak for women, but for men as long as they can look at a potential partner and consistently and honestly say "I would very much like to have sex with that person", then the threshold is just about met.

[-] TheRealBestAmerican 1 Point 7 months ago

Sad, but true.

[-] Wolfssenger 9 Points 7 months ago

I don't think it's sad. While the phrasing I used may have been vulgar, it essentially encompasses that the woman's figure/appearance is acceptable for courtship. I purposefully included the words "consistently" and "very much" for the following reasons:

Consistently - Men can often feel the urge to bed a woman due to novelty, but this tends not to last past a few instances of desire, and especially after the curiosity being sated.

Very much - To cover the cases that a man find a woman just attractive enough to bed. I don't think that's quite sufficient for a long term relationship, a man should be pretty enthused about bedding a woman he seeks to court.

Essentially, a mans desire to bed a woman consistently scales linearly with her attractiveness to him. In this manner, I believe this measure to be sufficient.

[-] TheRealBestAmerican 3 Points 7 months ago

I was more expressing my disappointment with the natural urge for men to sleep with many women. I believe very strongly in monogamy, after all.

[-] Wolfssenger 3 Points 7 months ago

A necessary sacrifice, but I understand your lamentation.

[-] TheRealBestAmerican 1 Point 7 months ago

Of course. And as with many other things it is only nature which, obviously, we cannot change.

[-] ta1901 1 Point 7 months ago

Yes but that often gets men into trouble too. The sex drive won't last forever and when that's gone, what is left to attract them to their SO? The personality.

I also happen to get more turned on by a woman's personality than her looks anyway.

[-] Cool-Lemon 13 Points 7 months ago

Agreed. I read this sub for curiosity's sake, not sure how I feel about it all yet. But placing a lot of value on looks has never made a ton of sense to me. While people maintain some of their looks throughout their life, if you plan on making someone your life partner, you will both age and may not "age well". It seems more valuable to me to pay attention to the "whole person" and fall in love with all of them...especially the things that will last, like their personality and values.

[-] anglophiliaa 4 Points 7 months ago

I had this same discussion with a friend recently. She was looking at some of the profiles of men I've gone on dates with lately, claiming they were not handsome enough for me because she considers me beautiful. I had to explain to her that I'm looking for a lifetime commitment, so ability to provide/stability trumps the type of handsome/exciting combo that she values. Being hot doesn't put food on the table, and I'm also not stupid - men who are both handsome and make good providers have way more options. Looks are highly overrated against character. As long as I find him moderately attractive in the long run, that's what matters.

[-] letgoor 18 Points 7 months ago

This is fantastic, thank you for sharing it.

This is because after braving the world, men need a home. That home is not a house. That home is you.

Words to live by!

[-] Wolfssenger 7 Points 7 months ago

Glad to contribute. Thanks for the kind words.

[-] ragnarockette 14 Points 7 months ago

The guy who won Campus Hearthrob my senior year of high school (and he was HOT!) married a 43 year old woman when he was 26. She does not wear makeup, has deep laugh lines, and a little bit of a belly from having 2 kids (she is a fit triathlete though).

They have a 4 year old son now.

Let me tell you this woman is just an absolute ray of sunshine. She is kind, fun, positive (always smiling), passionate (she runs a camp for abused teenage girls), caring, etc. She is whip smart (she is actually running for political office) but never comes across like a know it all. She is always up for adventure and is the most fun wife and mom.

It is so easy to see why he fell for her because her personality is so magnetic and lovely.

[-] raeonmon 5 Points 7 months ago

Do you have a wife? And what would you say would be the most important cultivated quality a woman could have?

[-] JJ3314 15 Points 7 months ago

Married. These are things that I have learned are pretty essential, without focusing primarily on looks (I include a little at the end).

(1) The ability to adhere to moral principles over fleeting desires and emotions. I have to feel like I can trust her/count on her. (2) The ability to genuinely empathize with others. While the ability to empathize with other women is a given, her value goes way up if she demonstrates the ability to empathize, and be fair-minded, with men (3) A stable, happy personality. The ability to responsibly manage feelings of stress when it does occur. (4) Capacity for fidelity (see 1) (5) Independent desire to maintain her attractiveness for me (and following through on the above), with the mutual understanding that neither of us expects physical perfection from each other.

I try to hold myself to all of the above standards as well.

[-] raeonmon 6 Points 7 months ago

That's wonderful that you could find a partner that exhibits all those qualities! I think one of my big struggles (as with many women) is becoming overwhelmed by stress and being over emotional. My husband is very understanding, but I know I could do better.

[-] ManguZa 5 Points 7 months ago

I'ld go with devotion.

And discipline for a man.

[-] Wolfssenger 2 Points 7 months ago

Devotion is something that is earned. Something akin to the propensity to develop devotion would be more accurate.

edit: Fixed an autocorrect atrocity.

[-] ManguZa 3 Points 7 months ago

English is not my first language. Maybe dedication is a better word?

[-] Wolfssenger 3 Points 7 months ago

Basically what I'm saying is that women should be devoted to a man once he's shown he deserves it. I saw the question as what kind of trait a woman should have before entering a relationship.

[-] ManguZa 1 Point 7 months ago

In French this word are not inevitably link to one person. You can be devoted to help people in general or to be a good housewife etc... by opposition to doing things with no heart, superficially.

[-] alaskanarcher 1 Point 7 months ago

Devotion and dedication are fairly synonymous. I think OP understood what you meant correctly and doubt that he would change his response if you changed that one word.

[-] Wolfssenger 4 Points 7 months ago

I'm not married yet, I've got business prospects and a doctorate I'm focusing on first. That said, being 21 I have time. It's hard to narrow it down to a quality that is truly singular. I could say "femininity" or " softness" but each of those is an amalgamation of several traits. If I had to pick one , it would be "kindness" or "empathy" as your ability to care for others translates directly to your ability to care for your man.

[-] raeonmon 5 Points 7 months ago

I see your point! I agree, kindness seems to be the center point of most feminine women that I meet. Beauty from within to complement the external

[-] Bpgiissues 3 Points 7 months ago

I think this is a good reminder of how important attitude and demeanor are. Obviously it shouldn't be used as an excuse to not try to be the best you can in other areas.

I recently was at an event and a friend brought a date. Initially i was questioning what my friend was thinking based on looks alone. After conversation with her though changed my opinion. She was a classic tomboy but made up for it with a very pleasant feminine demeanor. That said by appearance she would not have attracted my attention initially to get to know her better so she has lowered her available pool for her to choose from.


[-] ta1901 2 Points 7 months ago

Put simply, women are born with and grow naturally what men seek(youth, fertility, looks), where as men earn what women seek(wealth, confidence, competence).

Very interesting take on that! I think that's on the right track.

Besides her being small(my preference), it all lay in demeanor.

Also very true! Her confidence is everything. I want a submissive, supporting woman, not a helpless damsel in distress where I have to fix every cotton picking detail. I don't want someone I have to micromanage. I hope this clarifies some of the "submissive" stuff that we talk about here.

she was never combative

I think some women confuse being "confident" with being "combative". I've seen this in dozens of women over my lifetime.

This is how I put the physical attractive issue in perspective: "Good looks will get you the first date, a good personality will get you more dates." In the end for LTR, it's the personality that really matters. And I've found this true time and time again.

When I was dating my wife, I was cutting down a 40ft tree. I needed someone to pull it away from my house while I made the final cut, I couldn't do it myself. So she said "I can do it." I gave her the rope and she pulled and she yelled "Ready!" I made the final cut and she pulled it down. She is pretty strong, but still feminine and lovable. That day I thought "Wow. She could be wife material." And she was.

Just because she is strong does not mean she is not feminine.