Maybe I missed it. But have you talked to a lawyer regarding a prenup?

It's in woman's interest to get married. Since you have set on course of saving yourself for marriage, it is a reasonable expectation for your partner to be committed to you officially. You are a rare virgin, which raises your SMV a lot, and you are also young. So, you can either walk away from this and start another relationship, find another quality man who shares the same value. Or you can continue discussing marriage with your partner, and I highly recommend continuing to save yourself for marriage. If he reads TRP a lot, be ready for heavy dread game. You will feel neglected and be emotionally hurt, but try to keep your grounds anyways. Remember, as a woman, it's in your best interest to be married. You worked hard to be wife material, so expecting this status is fair. Men RP end game is quality sex with quality girls. Women RP end game should be marriage. Don't settle for less

You've received a lot of good advice here from Endorsed Women. I won't repeat any of it, except to say you need to be really sure you are not settling or setting yourself up for future resentment. As many of the women here said, this is far from easy and I'm sorry you're having to make this decision. It is obvious you are an intelligent and thoughtful person and I wish you the best. Please keep us updated.

I'm confused; this is one area where TRP doesn't correlate to the data I've seen on how different partners fare in divorce and marriage. My SO is very keen to have a family and be married someday, but wants to make sure he's on the right track personally, professionally, etc... Which of course I support. shrug My mother had me at 38 and my gma had her at 36 so I'm not trying to rush anything before we're ready and it makes sense. Honestly, I'm MUCH more frightened about being left high and dry than he is.

I've done a lot of research on this, because I was concerned that getting married can put a woman in a perilous position. I've tried to look at many studies...the consensus seems to be that single women live longer than those who are married. Married men live longer, on average than those who are not married.

Men who are fathers earn more than those who are not; they report being happier than single men. The quote:

"Divorce makes men - and particularly fathers - significantly richer. When a father separates from the mother of his children, according to new research, his available income increases by around one third. Women, in contrast, suffer severe financial penalties. Regardless of whether she has children, the average woman's income falls by more than a fifth and remains low" Really has stuck with me, and is true in my life.

My own father (when he divorced my mother for a younger woman) didn't pay child support whatsoever, while my mother and I literally spent time in a homeless shelter. He recently admitted to me that since he handled all the finances in their marriage (even though my mother was a corporate banker, she was more "traditional"), he simply "moved some accounts". To this day I'm not quite sure what that even means. Thankfully I have a stupendous step-father that has shown me what men with integrity are like....

My good friend just had her mate leave her- she was a SAHM, and received no alimony, but was completely undesirable by employers because she had spent time with her children. Now they share custody, but she is making 1/3 of what she did before she left her career to stay at home. I don't think she could even afford full custody, even if it WAS best for the children, because she could never afford to care for them. No (very very few) men want to take care of another's offspring! She's basically screwed!

I had an almost-hubby ex (THANK GOODNESS) myself that carefully hid his online porn addiction from me-I'd pay my half of our rent to him each month and he'd pretend to pay the bill but was spending it on his online accounts. He ruined my credit by opening up accounts in my name and damn near had us out on the street.

Submission is very scary, and we have to choose the right captain. I haven't before and am very reticent to do so again. I'm not saying that it never happens the other way, but it seems to be considered a given that our mates are much more vulnerable when leaving committed relationships than we are. If they are handling all the financial decisions, and all of our shared money, while we track ourselves into less demanding/low paying jobs to support the emotional needs of our families, how could that possibly be the general case?

EDIT: TDLR: Consider the possibility that marriage might be a dangerous situation for you, as well. Don't feel as though you have to....

I'm assuming you've already given up on your traditional values regarding sex before marriage? If you have religious reasons for wanting marriage I would suggest cutting your losses now, unless he is willing to do a religious ceremony and you are willing to compromise on the paperwork bit. A woman who wants marriage as a spiritual union, to become one flesh according to God, will forever resent the man who denies her that, particularly if she ends up having bastard children.

Whatever you choose, you should take action fast if you want children. I highly suggest asking him if he is willing to speak to an actual lawyer, even getting a second opinion from another lawyer, to walk him through what the true risks are. If he is getting all of his information from horror stories on the Internet he is not making an informed decision. Deciding on something like this based solely on one-sided accounts from people who don't understand the legal system or didn't when they got married, is akin to deciding on your own medical treatment without consulting a doctor because WebMD made you certain you have cancer.

If he won't even consult a legal professional after changing the agreement you had in the beginning of your relationship, he is showing that he doesn't hold your strong convictions in high regard. If he goes with you but is unsatisfied and still against the idea, at least you know that he values your opinion and wants to take you into consideration in his life plans. The answer, to me, is obvious in the first situation: leave and find someone who wants what you want. If it's the second, consider the "why's" of why marriage is important to you. It's possible you can come to an arrangement you are both happy with (changing your name, having a ceremony with rings but no paperwork, simply promising to refer to each other as husband and wife respectively, etc.).

Somewhat similar situation here, except my SO since finding TRP has decided that he's not only against marriage (meanwhile I'd love to be his wife and spend the rest of our lives together loving and being good to each other and enjoying life, I understand his hesitancy and have no issue myself with having prenups so that there is no worry in that regard for him, and I don't care for money anyway, and I am even open to the idea of just being married in spirit and not on paper at all as I want him as my life partner), but also he feels that he never wants to live with another woman again due to various reasons (he's only ever lived with one SO, his crazy ex, and he thinks living together will possibly end up in abuse allegations or trying to take his money or whatever else he's afraid of because his crazy and horrible ex did those things, even though none of that is even remotely like me, and I bring my fair share to the table too), and he used to want a large family with several kids and a good woman taking care of them and him, but again, due to crazy ex and the family court system empowering her and him making some really poor decisions along the way for various reasons (some his fault, others not), now he's against having a family too and is taking vasectomy and says that really there's no future possible with any woman today thanks to feminism and the family court system and AWALT. I think/hope it's finally starting to swing back to a more middle ground as it should, and fault divorce should exist again and these absurd payouts should go by the wayside, there needs to be accountability for everyone for their actions.

One crazy ex, and she managed to ruin so many things, and continues to do so. The adage holds true, you can't turn a whore into a housewife, and if you try, these are the results you get.

But what's the most frustrating is as a good woman you end up destroyed by these horrible women too. They destroy your dreams and chance at the future you so desired and have lived a good life just to prepare for.

I also feel the most sorry for his daughter, even if he succeeds, and I hope he does, and she grows up into a lovely good woman, there's a very high chance she'll just end up meeting a man like him (as all of us ladies with good father figures are drawn to men with similar characteristics to our fathers), and his daughter will be in the same boat I'm in now... A good woman who's finally found the man of her dreams and love of her life, and she's the woman of his dreams too, only to be told they can never have a real future together as he's too scared to even take the chance.

Edit: phone typing es no bueno

Edit 2: why the upvoting and now downvoting, if you're going to downvote tell me why?

I'm in a similar boat. I'm 33, and have found the man I want to give my everything to. We've been together 2 1/ 2 years now, living together for about 1-1/2 now. I want to be his wife, very much so. I made that clear to him in the early weeks, and the message was understood. But... He is against marriage. He is committed to me, and a great man whom I admire, and love and respect.

I made the choice to stick around. Having him be a part of my life is far more important than a label at the end of the day for me. I love the life we are building together, and he tells me I bring a lot to his life as well. We have plans for a long shared future, and so long as we both hold up our sides of the bargain, I think we are well suited for each other.

He too makes good money (as will I when I am done school in a few weeks - went back as a mature student) and wants to protect himself. I can't fault him for that. He also saw how his mum left his father just when things were at a low point in their lives, when my SO was 15 ish.

He alludes on occasion to being married, but I don't press the issue. If it happens, it happens. Most people assume we are married anyway - he doesn't correct people if they ask about his wife.

Anyway, though the situation is not "ideal" for me (but seriously, it's pretty fucking awesome as a whole) in that I would like to be official (even if only through ceremony, and no legal option) having him in my life is enough.

(Some here will say I'm old, past the wall, and spinster-haggardville is the next exit, and as such, I'm just hamstering about this, that I'm holding on because I won't find anyone else. May be, but here I am, happy with my amazing man, and trying to focus on how I can add value back to his life.)

Are you saving your virginity for marriage? A lot of the time if a man can have sex without needing to marry someone there is less reason for them to get married. If not, I'd ask yourself, can I live my whole life without being married? I've thought about this and I personally can't. I couldn't be with someone who didn't trust me enough to be married, and the fact about prenups is if you do them well with a lawyer and maybe add in a video message, there is very little chance they don't work. I would say break up with him if he totally refuses to marry you, but that's totally just me and you should do what's right for you,

Be married in spirit, but not legally. Have the ceremony, don't sign the paper.

I don't see what's so hard about that.

This is such a tough situation to be in, so sorry that finding the red pill has sent the two of you in opposite directions. It's interesting to me that he is still not interested in marriage despite you being okay with a prenup. Do you think there is anything that you are doing/have done that is contributing to his lack of trust in the viability of your potential marriage? Or is his fear mainly because of what he's been reading?

Are you still waiting for marriage until sex or have you slept with him? If you've already slept with him then there's really not much incentive for him to make your union official unless he is religious (which it doesn't sound like he is).

What red pill material are you two reading? Just the subreddits or other blogs within the manosphere? Have you looked at Red Pill material specifically for marriage? There are a lot of RP blogs with Christian authors that are still pro marriage, their words might resonate with your boyfriend.

Ultimately you can't force him to change his mind. If you're determined to stay with him, would you be okay with having a ceremony, and an exchange of rings but no legal activity taking place? You would still have the status as a wife and you could keep the legal aspect private. I'm not sure what the common law marriage rules are for your state so you should check because this may still result in a legal marriage even if no papers are signed.

If he doesn't want to have a ceremony, then you have to think about what marriage means to you (I am assuming you aren't religious for the purposes of this response). If your main goal is a life with this man, do you think you'd be okay without the formal title of wife? You'd have to be certain because at 29, it'll be harder to find a new husband the longer you stay with this man.

The two of you need to be on the same page about the direction of your relationship, if you can't reach a mutually pleasing decision, then you're going to have to break up. It's awful to think about but if you really want to be married, you're going to need to find a man who is interested in the same thing. I absolutely would not suggest giving an ultimatum, or any other way of trying to force/manipulate him into marrying you. After you've figured out what you want you need to be firm and stick to it. You also can't agree to stay bf/gf or just have a ceremony and still secretly hope that he changes his mind and legally marries you.

Man here, in a similar situation, except she and I have each been married before, and each have two children by our previous spouses.

I love my woman with all my heart, and I'm completely committed to her and our life together indefinitely, but I'd rather lose this amazing relationship than marry. Marriage is just that bad.

The question of trust always gets thrown around, as in "do you want a man who doesn't trust you". This really is a horrible red herring. The problem isn't about trust. You can easily trust that your SO as you know them TODAY, wouldn't go off the rails,,, but what marriage requires is prediction of the future, and we're all pretty terrible at that. Then there's the fact that as a man, especially a sole provider, that it doesn't require an evil person to gut you in divorce. It only takes one that is aware of the legal entitlements surrounding divorce, and the choice of pursuing what is legally permitted. All of this is to say, that none of this issue is about trust, it's about the trepidation at the proposal of entering a legal scheme that provides no benefit, with great risk of harm to one side, and much benefit and little risk of harm to the other. I often think of it as "I shouldn't have to castrate myself, for you to stay in a relationship with me, as a matter of fact, I specifically don't want that kind of relationship at all".

For what it's worth,, my best friend and his brother were raised by unmarried parents, in an in-tact household their whole lives. Their dad nursed their mom through 8 years of chemotherapy, and ultimately buried the love of his life 4 years ago. He did this because he was committed to her, not because he was married to her. Meanwhile, I was raised by my father, who has been married and divorced 5 times,, my mom has been married and divorced 3 times,,, and either of them would likely throw a party after the funeral of the other. Also of note is that none of my mom's 3 marriages lasted longer than 5 years,,, yet she's now been happily committed and living with her awesome SO for 25+ years.

My advice is to always focus on the quality of the relationship, and don't get distracted with the labels and window dressing. The world is much different today then when granny was making her way through it. The same ends can be achieved, but the path there may be very different than it was in her time.

I’m more than fine with signing a pre-nup, but he has discovered from other sites and stories that a pre-nup may not be enough to protect him.

Pre-nups are usually pretty decent to be honest. I personally don't know of any cases where a pre-nup was signed and failed to protect the person. It's possible there are cases, but I'd assume there are reasons for why they would be overturned legally.

You have a couple of options if that isn't suitable for him though.

You can stay together and work on legally binding yourselves together with the legal benefits. You can look into civil unions. There are people who use these as an alternative to marriage, but there are similar benefits from tax standpoints etc.

You can put in the time to gain a common law marriage which affords you the same legal rights without actually being married from a legal standpoint.

I'm not sure of the legal issues surrounding separating with common law marriage and civil unions so you will want to look into those when you both discuss this.

You can choose that while this man is what you want in a large way a huge part of what you want is to be married and you can move on from him.

You don't really have very many more options IMO unless he changes his mind on marriage with or without the pre-nup.

If it's no-fault divorce he's worried about, there are three states that have an opt-in system called "covenant marriage." You don't have to be religious or have a religious ceremony to do this. Most couples elect to get married under the regular laws, but if you get a covenant marriage, divorce either has to be mutually agreed upon or for a set number of traditional reasons, such as physical abuse, adultery, and abandonment. This can provide some protection for him from you just deciding you're not happy anymore. The states that do this are Louisiana, Arkansas, and Arizona.

I feel for you, SunkissedDame. What a horrid position to be in.

If, like you said, his "greatest concern is getting married and his wife suddenly leaving him and taking all of his money" then an iron-clad pre-nuptial should subdue those worries. Tell him you don't want a joint bank account. There are a lot of things you can do to ensure you're not in this for the money - just ask any divorce or family lawyer.

But anything worth having in life has a risk. Everything has a cost. To expect otherwise is naive. Marriage is risky, but it represents security, love, and commitment. I personally could never live with a man like his wife without actually being one, but if you don't really believe in the sanctity of marriage, then live with him as you are now. Just don't expect him to wake up one day three years from now and think, "Maybe I'll marry her."

http://www.reddit.com/r/RedPillWomen/comments/330esi/does_anyone_else_here_have_a_captain_who_doesnt/

hope you find some enlightenment here!

[deleted]

There are thousands of extremely powerful wealthy alpha men who aren't afraid of marriage because they have enough sense to hire really good lawyers. Prenups can work if set up right or these types of men would never marry either. The horror stories traded around on TRP are about men who didn't know or prepare for all the possible things that could go wrong. In many cases, once the couple had children much of it was be voided if the woman and her lawyer were especially vindictive/money grubbing. But these are worst case scenarios from betas who get screwed because they were blind and didn't properly protect themselves and they picked the wrong woman. Alphas should know better.

If it's marriage you want (and part of him does want), sit down with a really really good lawyer and actually learn how a prenup can work for his needs/peace of mind. Ask TRP to recommend a lawyer who knows how to protect men's rights in today's legal system. Don't let all the trash talking on marriage at TRP scare you away so easily, get a pro to educate you about your options. You might have to set up additional clauses for once children are born. I think you can even add stuff for if a partner gets overweight/neglectful if he's worried about an attitude change. And then he can decide for himself if he's comfortable with it.

Also, I've heard of couples who don't want to or can't get legally married setting up a corporation to protect eachother's rights. These are set up in a way where it doesn't matter who is a man or a woman (works for gay or poly couples). The legal side of marriage is a business deal so if you don't like today's marriage contract, set up your own independent business arrangement.

However you do it, find a way that makes him feel protected so that he can feel comfortable with a ceremony, if that's what you want.

I don't see anybody mentioning that you said you are 29 and want children. I think this changes your options a little bit, this isn't quite the same as if you were 23 in the same position with extra time. You said he is still interested in having a family with you? If I were you I'd be willing to make that compromise. I'd make absolutely sure he still wants a family, though.

[deleted]

I was with my husband for a decade before we got married; it was the early 80s when we got together, and we were the product of our time thinking marriage was outdated, etc. After buying a house together, fixing it up together, opening a business together, our attorney mentioned that we were basically married and legally entangled anyway, so we went ahead and took the leap.

The problem is that it is extremely difficult to build a life together without getting financially and legally entwined, especially if there are children involved. Think about it; everything has to be kept separate: finances, ownership, even things like furniture and possessions.

If you buy a house, which one of you will own it, and will the other contribute to the payments and upkeep? Will all the the things you build together be only in his name? The main danger for him "losing everything to you" would be children. If you had kids and then separated, then there will most likely be child support, or at the very least there will be some sort of arrangement, generally a legal arrangement, to structure custody.

I don't know anywhere (in the U.S. anyway) where premarital assets are taken in the case of a divorce, and if you are both working, then there shouldn't be alimony involved. In most states, pre-nups are as iron-clad as business partnerships as long as each party has a different attorney representing them. Maybe get the opinion of an attorney instead of reading horror stories of divorce.

Are you willing to live the rest of your life keeping tally of what is his or hers? Are you willing to contribute your time, money and energy towards something you will never own (a house, etc)? Are you willing to never work together towards building a life together? Basically you will be living as roommates and only sharing a bed (that either you or him own, not both of you together).

I suggest you consult an attorney and see what the legal ramifications of living together/marriage are in your state (if you live in the U.S.) or country. Until you are fully informed, you cannot make an informed decision.

One of you will have to sacrifice your values or walk. One day you will be a 40 year old "girlfriend" in an adult world of husbands and women men thought were worth elevating to the ultimate female status of wife. if you can handle that then don't sweat it. If you acquiesce out of fear of losing him and it becomes a bone of contention, you are setting yourself up for failure and being single at 35. Make Sure you are genuinely OK with sacrificing this before you do it

One of you is going to have to make the sacrifice and I don't see think either of you should feel bent into giving up on what you want, you've both got perfectly valid reasons to stand your ground but that isn't going to solve the problem, eventually one of you is going to have to give up or you'll both have to split up.

I understand both sides perfectly, I don't envy your position.

Personally I think that if you really truly love him and plan to spend the rest of your life with him then you shouldn't end that because you can't be his wife, it's better to be a life partner to the person you truly adore than to be wife to second best.

I've always thought that if I find someone who doesn't want to marry I would consider legally changing my last name to his to solidify the family feeling, admittedly it's not the same, it's taking a name rather than his name but it's still close enough.

Would you rather be married to someone else or would you rather be with him for the rest of your life?

Will he compromise? Civil partnership maybe but to my knowledge that gives the same rights.

There's nothing wrong if no marriage is a deal breaker, if you would genuinely be happier and more fulfilled if you left him and found someone else to marry then you should do it but that seems like it'll be a bumpy ride, it'll take a lot of hurt and a lot of time, it's up to you to consider whether it's worth it for marriage.

If you decide to stay with him and have no marriage then you've got to make sure there's no resentment, that you wont hold it against him, there's no point giving up what you want for the better of the relationship only to destroy it later with bitterness.

i'm a man so I say this more to him than to you directly, but if you are willing to sign a pre-nup and get married, it may actually protect him more than if you do nothing at all.

If you do stay together and live together for years, you will eventually have common-law marriage in some states in the US (where I am just assuming you are from); and then you /u/SunkissedDame would have all the rights of a wife and he would not have a pre-nup.

A little dread game from the girls end can work here.

My intuition though is that if you are truly offering to sign an aggressive pre-nup there is something other than simply protection going on; because he would be protected.

If it's rather that the state being involved is the thing he really has a distaste for, then it is a bit of a different type of barrier.

Male invader.

Generally speaking, women want powerful men. By marrying him, you take away his power: suddenly he can no longer walk away from the relationship without dire consequences, while you have a loaded gun pointed at his face at all times. Thus, by legally marrying him, he will become less attractive to you.

And no, pre-nups aren't as effective as advertised.

So don't marry. Have the ceremony, if you want, but don't marry legally.

You can always have a wedding without the paperwork. Make vows, call each other husband and wife...just never sign the documents. I mean, that's the way marriage used to work, anyway. Getting the government involved is a fairly recent addition.

I just asked a similar question a few days ago, and got several helpful responses. I'll try to figure out a way to link that thread for you

I may come up as confrontational here, but that's just my comunication urges getting a hold of me.

I've written about this subject here before, but here it goes again, for you all gals to behold a young male perspective(early 20's) on the issue:

I've seen too many men getting brutally divorce raped for my age to even remotely consider marriage ever. Not to mention that, with family values slowly dissolving in the current sea of horrid divorces, child custody laws, alimony, divorce rates and the futility consumerist mindset( "is it broken? get a new one, because I don't care" instead of the old school "is it broken? How can I fix it because I care", that's why 50% of marriages end in divorce) in regards to relationships that permeates in young females(and many males alike). Marriage is just a very bad idea in every possible aspect. But only for a man, obviously.

To him that piece paper has nothing to do with commitment, love or dedication to a partner and more to do with courts, the IRS and lawyers. At the end of the day, it’s just not worth the risk for him. We have all heard of stories of how men married what seemed like a great woman, only for things to completely change.

This is exactly my point. Marriage doesn't make any sense in general for a man. Of course every man marries a woman he think is a good wife, why would anyone marry a bad potential wife in the first place? Every divorce case in a situation where the man thought he married a good wife, then he got divorce raped. People change. Statistically, most often women change way more than men(70%+ divorces are initiated by women). And you know him for 1,5 years. Let's be honest here, that's nothing compared to a lifetime commitment(30+ years). Everything could change 20 times over.

The same goes fod kids. Kids is just another asset divorced women have to take away from man(women get child custody 85%+ of the times).

So why on earth would any conscious man marry knowing that this is a lose-lose game for him in every possible scenario? All a woman has to do to destroy a man's life is to pick up the phone. Why would then a man consciously subject himself to those risks? For supposed "emotional benefits"? No, thanks.

If your relationship is great, why would a man give such an incentive for a woman to cash out on her very first whim?

And I'm not even saying anything about you. I'm just painting the big picture here. It's not about the lack of incentives for men to marry. It's way worse. Man have absolutely every incentive to not marry. Every man with half a brain and enough experience can see it. Just take a look around.

I'm just pointing to the logical conclusion: it's a risk. A huge risk.

I just can’t stomach the idea of being someone’s long-term girlfriend/baby mama.

I have no idea how you can feel this way. If you cohabitated and have intention to have kids, if you know why he's not willing to sign a piece of paper, then please elucidate how is this any different from having a piece of paper and doing exactly the same? The big party and church ceremony? You could pretty much have a party and the ceremony not sign a paper.

pre-nup may not be enough to protect him

No, it's not. Pre-ups are routinely dismissed in law courts. They pretty much make no difference. Whatch this for further elucidation on the matter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlvMAS_20K4

Someone on the comments said they are pretty much fine, but well, several cases disagree with you. And even if mostly they do work fine(let's assume, 90%), you have a 10% chance to get lifetime fucked and lose his life savings for signing a piece of paper.

Are there other legal resources that could provide him with the protection that would make him feel more comfortable?

No. All of them are taking your chances.

Are there any red pill women who have decided to commit to a man for life, but are not married in the legal sense?

Yes. These are some of the best comments I've read about this subject in this sub: This and this.

And this is coming from someone who would very probably marry in a different scenario and even have kids. But in the current situation? Absolutely not.

If you can't possible wrap your head around the idea that he does not want to sign a piece of paper, then you have no option.

TL;DR: Signing a piece of paper have nothing to do with commitment, love or dedication to a partner. Nothing to do with trust.

Edit: I'm very bad at summing it up. Another wall of text. My bad.

I would consult a lawyer with him regarding a prenup and what that does. I think he may be misinformed, if he is really just worried about you "taking his money", a prenup will prevent that.

Prenup?

My Captain and I have been together for five years and do not have plans for marriage. Times have changed and getting married does not mean what it once did, that being no-fault divorce. Pre-nups do not always work and having children while getting a divorce generally favors the woman. It is just not good to get married as a man right now and that sucks.

It bothered me at first but I understand where my Captain is coming from and he makes the decisions and I follow them hehe. That's the way we like it. You can still lead a traditional lifestyle with your Captain without being legally married. It really is just all about how you look at it.