Thank you everybody for the responses, you've all helped more than you know ♡

I have no desire whatsoever to get married, and I'm a woman.

There are literally no benefits as far as I can see, honestly. I don't want to have children, we share everything else equally, and I never had the "big white wedding" dream.

Do you feel like he can't or won't fully commit to you without that piece of paper?

Marriage was invented to protect us when we get old and sexually unappealing. Is he going to continue being your Captain when that happens to you? Or will he find a higher SMV 20 year old and leave? Right now everything is great and the marriage is just a formality, but consider the long-term effects.

He's right to not want to risk a divorce for financial reasons, but you have to be a little selfish about this. It's a risky move to plow forward into the future, giving him your best years, without anything guaranteeing that he won't have a change of heart. It's a tough situation.

My current SO likes the idea of marriage and he really believes in the sanctity of it. He also doesn't see the need for it if it doesn't benefit him in any way. He has stated since day one that if he were to propose, it would be on his terms and his time line. I am fine with that, a I really love him. I see a strong future with him marriage or not, and would not love him any less if he weren't to ever ask. Coming from a more traditional parental upbringing I would prefer a marriage but it isn't necessary for me to love and be with him.

Men can have a multitude of "logical" reasons for not getting married. But the fact is, love is not logical.

He can also makes his SO suffer for last relationships, neo-feminism or the possibility of bring divorce raped. But, he's only punishing the person he loves (if she DOES want to get married) for absolutely no reason. Its not fair.

If we continually start relationships based on fear, punishing those relationships in any way for things that have nothing to do personally with the person we just started seeing, we won't be able to open up and experience what love truly can be....

My husband and I have a pre-nup. Why? Because he came into the marriage with more assets than I did. Hell, our pre-nup wasn't even done by lawyers (I wouldn't advise this). And when we separated after ten years of marriage, I didn't even think of hurting him by going back on that pre-nup. It was his money, not mine.

A lot of financial and other decisions we made before we ever moved in together. And THAT is the crux of all this - finding out ahead of time what each other wants and what they are willing to give.

If he would have said he wasn't going to marry me because of all the reasons I hear from TRPers, then I would have walked. Marriage, to me, is a commitment ceremony to solidify the love between two people. If someone can't give me that then I have no desire to give them one more second of my time.

Idk, I really can't imagine not getting married.

Yes. We've been together since September/October 2014, and he's made it clear to me that he's against getting married.

Here's what my boyfriend has to say about the situation you're in:

Sounds like she's grown up to the Disney theme song. [...] She feels like her bf is a catch, which is why she's trying too hard. She feels like she should "earn" a marriage out of that, and she feels like him not doing it is his way of saying she isn't good enough. And by not marrying her, she's taking it to mean that he plans on leaving her. "BUT IF I CAN MAKE HIM MARRY ME, then he's trapped."

For my perspective, continue reading.

TDCRedpill is on point that it's more likely he is not afraid of marriage, but of divorce.

But he just doesn't seem to think marriage is a good decision. We've talked about it several times, and I can see his logic: that marriage (or lack thereof) wouldn't change our relationship, and would provide only tax breaks as (legal) benefits, [...]

The funny part I find here is that marriage does change your relationship. Yes, many people marry for the tax breaks and financial legal benefits. And when divorce comes around (yeah yeah, none of us expect it will happen to us), she feels entitled to his provisions and earnings, and modern laws support her, thus screwing him over after the fact. Extra baggage for both parties, and statistically he is left with much less than he started with.

Too many men get hurt by their lovers, and all the while, women show very little remorse. During the marriage, it's common for any woman — against her own better judgment — to manipulate her husband more and more, over time.

Not to mention that divorce is embraced by Western women nowadays.

Hypergamy is real — it's inevitable. I'm finding a lot of advice to "be your husband's girlfriend," because that girlfriend experience is best for both the man and the woman.

When a wife's view of her captain lowers, she begins to resent him. She doesn't see her husband as the best, so she doesn't give her best. While a man's love is unconditional, and a woman's is opportunistic, he remains in his comfort without effort to impress or excite, while the wife begins to look elsewhere for her excitement.

Marriage becomes a downward spiral when you begin to relax, get comfortable with each other, let yourself go a bit, fall into unhealthy habits, make compromises, take the relationship for granted, etc. The dating game is lost, and you've convinced yourself that you're stuck. Naturally, you will become unhappy. And someone is going to look elsewhere for happiness, and the spouse will not tolerate this.

A lot of the women who end up divorcing their husbands for half or more of his assets, they never initially suspect this would happen to them. Many women don't go into a marriage with the intent rob or use him. It's really unfortunate, though no person can soundly predict a successful marriage.

As with oneweinerperbun's husband/captain, my boyfriend believes the government has no place in our relationship.

This reply only brushed on the surface of the many issues, though I hope it helps give you a big picture of arguments against marriage.

Your S.O. probably loves and appreciates you in the relationship you're in, and actually does not want to marry. You're the best he's got, why would he "hold out" for the next best? :)

Marriage is a contract between two people. First you need to identify why you want to get married. Secondly what benefits marriage gives you.

With regard to benefits, the obvious is tax ones. Most couples do gain a tax advantage by filing as a couple.

Not sure if you plan to have kids. For me personally I would not have kids with someone unless I was married to them. That is my deal breaker, you need to figure out yours (and why it is a deal breaker).

Some lesser thought of marital advantages are things such as making medical decisions in an emergency, social security benefits if he passes away, covered under health insurance by an employer, ect...Now these things are easily replicated via legal means. So if these are concerns you need to address getting life insurance (on both of you), living wills and medical power of attorney (accidents happen), and talking to a health care coverage agent for policy pricing.

You mention co-mingled finances. What is in place currently to protect you both? Would a solid pre-nup sway his opinion?

After four years, it is unlikely he will change his mind and marry you. You need to figure out if you can live with this choice gracefully and without resentment. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting that piece of paper that says you are legally committed just like there is nothing wrong with him not wanting it. The question is if you can live with it.

Maybe you find some wisdom or answers here :)

As a married gal, I totally get the desire for the romance and social recognition that comes with the titles of Mr. and Mrs.

However, marriage won't have any affect on your man's capacity for loyalty. It sounds like he loves you and is in it for the long haul. :)

My boyfriend has already been married and divorce-raped so he's still pretty sore on the topic. He says he would marry again if he ever wanted children, but he says he's not too sure about that still. And while I would definitely like to marry and have children, its meaningless if its not with him. So I've put these things aside and gotten I'm the mindset that these things are not for US. If he changes his mind someday, great! But I won't try to change him and I won't set my expectations higher than I know he will deliver.

I'd expect you'll find him not afraid of marriage, but afraid of divorce. The fact is, that there is just no upside to do so anymore since no fault divorces came about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ut8PyuXh7eQ

But if you like the idea of marriage, then have a ceremony, change your name, and forego the marriage license. Legally getting married does nothing to protect or secure the union, just make sure things can very easily go bad if one person unilaterally decides to end it.

My husband and I are common law. My husband is very against marriage but in our province the government considers us as good as married. Have to file together and if we were to split it could be just like a divorce if I wanted to be a bitch about it. Alimony and all.

But despite that he still won't get married. Doesn't believe the government should have anything to do with our relationship despite the fact that there are indeed laws directly effecting it. Its the principal of the thing for him.

The only way he'd even think about it is if our kids asked us to do it. And even then he'd probably say no.

As for myself, after watching far too many people I know get married and divorced I realized that its not the wedding that makes a marriage. A piece of paper and a party don't guarantee lifelong commitment or happiness.

Would I get married if he asked? Absolutely. Does it bother me that he won't? Nope. If he wants to leave me he will leave me. Legal contract or not.

As far as titles and roles...we are living as husband and wife so we call each other that. Its no ones business but your own. If you want to have the rings...buy them. There's no law saying you can't.

And if you guys want the wedding...have one. You don't need to sign anything at the end if you don't want. Just celebrate your relationship with your friends and family.

My husband (of 7 days) didn't really believe in marriage, either. Both his parents are twice divorced and he was afraid to repeat family history. He also just didn't really think the tax benefits made it worthwhile. That said, we are of different nationalities and we have to be married in order to for me to move to the USA. It was really, really hard for him to convince himself to propose but once we were engaged, he really seemed to change his tune and get excited about us getting married. Of course, it's still very new but I am optimistic he's going to enjoy marriage. Especially now that I've found this sub. :)

OP, my advice is to you is to really think about if marriage is something you can live without or not. If you want/need X but your boyfriend can only provide Y, it's up to you to decide if it's deal breaker (replace X and Y with anything). There's nothing wrong with needing to be married, you're in good company. So if you decide that it is something you need, communicate that in a fair, calm and non-judgmental way to your boyfriend. Let him know it is something you need and you are willing to wait a little while longer while he decides if it's worth you guys breaking up or not.

Maybe you could also explain how you think married life will go for you two, or what your hopes and dreams are for marriage? Maybe you will turn him onto the idea if he realizes he gets a good deal out of it?

Edited: wording

I'm in this situation, my SO doesn't believe in marriage either. I can talk a good line about all the logical reasons why marriage makes no sense, save for the tax benefit (and let's be honest, who gets married with that as their incentive?), but there was a time when I was disappointed and sad that I couldn't have marriage anyway.

So, I poked at that emotion within myself, and tried to figure out why it was I still wanted marriage, even though there was no logic to it. I tried to figure out why my emotions weren't corresponding to my brain. Here are some reasons I figured out:

1. Marriage is a good deal for women. People are inherently selfish and often want things that are a good deal for them. It's basic minimizing risk, and maximizing reward behavior. This is why people play the lottery, in the hopes that they will win more than they put in. Small risk, big reward. They don't care that money had to be taken from lots of other people to make it happen, screwing other people over in the process. In marriage there is no downside for women, if they remain married, they win, and if the divorce they win.

2. Getting married shifts the balance of power. This is what women talk about when they talk about "marriage giving them security", or what my aunt was referring to when she said that staying unmarried gave my SO too much power. If your SO leaves you when you are not married, it is very easy for the woman to be screwed over. If she for example, was a stay at home mom, she'll have no money to show for it. So she'd be broke, have no marketable skills, and be an unattractive deal for any new guy as a single mom. If you get married, it shifts the power from "woman losing everything if relationship ends" to "man losing everything if relationship ends". That offers you security because it makes it less likely that the man will choose to leave you, and even if he does, it doesn't hurt you any. But on the flip side he is getting "more likely that the woman will leave you, and hurting you more if she does". That is a balance of power shift, it gives the woman more "control" over the relationship, and costs the man "control".

3. Being married is a status symbol. Whether or not feminists will admit it, being married says that "I am the type of woman a man is willing to marry". People look down on women who are plates, and have high partner counts, not only because they have made bad choices, but also because a woman who cannot get a man to commit to her must be somehow defective. She must have somehow failed at being a good woman. She must not be kind, feminine, nurturing, sympathetic, and all the things a man would want in a woman. For very similar reasons people look down on women who are in permanent LTRs.

4. Being proud of who I'm with. I am very proud of the fact that I am with my SO, and I don't mind if the entire world knows that he loves me too. If I have his last name I can tell people who I am with. Feelings like this come from small societies where everyone knew everyone, so if I had Mr. Wish's last name, people would know I'm Mr. Wish's wife, and I would be very proud of that fact. Now-a-days communities are so large, the majority of people I meet don't know who Mr. Wish is, but I still have that residual feeling of wanting everyone to know who I am with. Similarly having a ring is a universally accepted symbol to let people know I am proudly off the market.

Those are some of the things that I found that were the reasons that I still wanted to get married, despite it not making any logical sense. Because of these things, if my SO went crazy and decided to propose to me, I would say "yes" despite the fact that I've accepted his stance and agree with him on principal. I would have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

But, I think understanding my motivations was a big step for me to be able to accept that I would never be married if I stayed with him. These reasons might not resonate with you, but hopefully this will help you to figure out your own reasons.

Ultimately, for me, having Mr. Wish in my life, for the rest of my life, was more important to me than any of the things I listed above. He is an amazing man, and if I have to choose between having him, and having an arbitrary piece of paper with some other guy, I would choose him every time. It's no contest. I have no regrets about my decision, and I would make the same one again 100 times over if I had to. Now it's your turn to decide what is more important to you.

The legal environment for men is too dangerous. So many of my friends are divorced and it's cost them a MINT. I'm happy in my current marriage, but should something happen between us, I will never marry again. For a man, marriage is a fools game.

It's not impossible that he'll change his mind, but it is probably unlikely and you won't be able to change it for him. If you really want to be with him, more than you want marriage, then deal with it and don't pressure him. If you really need marriage, more than you need him, then you'll have to leave and pursue this with someone else. The situation is very difficult now because if you've been together so long. If you do leave (I wouldn't really recommend this but it's a very personal, emotional decision so only you can decide) then you need to tackle these issues much earlier in a relationship. Never move in with a man without either knowing you will get married (and some other life aims) or accepting the fact that you won't.

I think you need to figure out how important marriage is to you, why it's so important, and what his specific concerns are. For example, maybe he thinks big weddings (or any weddings) are a waste of money. Maybe he has concerns for money or property he owns now that could be settled by a prenup (despite what you see on TRP, prenups aren't thrown out often or without good reason--they even had a lawyer doing an AMA confirm that). Maybe part of being married for you is wanting a ring, a physical reminder that you are his, and that's something you can have without a legal marriage. Maybe you could have a church wedding without going through the legality of it. Maybe he's the product of divorce and that scares him.

But at the end of the day, if this is a deal breaker for you--and that's fair if it is--you need to seriously consider whether to stay with your man, assuming it's a deal breaker for him. I'm not saying to issue him an ultimatum or play games. Just reach your conclusions, and make your move.

As far as my personal opinion goes, my boyfriend believes in and wants marriage. At my insistence, we're both getting prenups, and at both of our insistence, we're eloping and turning it into our honeymoon at the same time, when the time is right. I would be fine not getting married, but it would make our lives easier (combining insurance, taxes, we'd both be covered should something happen to one another, and all the other legalities) so I have no reason to protest it.