We have a thread concerning being truthful/lying about partner count. But what about the relationship you are currently in or a new one?
Sex seems more important to an alpha than the average man, understandably. So at what point in a new relationship is it appropriate to move towards sex?
We aren't easy and don't want to be seen that way, being a tease is cruel without follow through, but you don't want him to get bored...
So what do you do? This is looking for a long term relationship (leading to marriage or the serious commitment equivalent).
Amissmiss 10y ago
My advice would be to wait to have sex when the guy you are dating moves the relationship into an exclusive territory and invites you into his life (meeting friends or family, spending much more time together, openly a couple). That isn't being a tease; It's making sure you aren't his conquest. Be honest early on about who you are so you don't waste time with someone just looking to hook up.
In the mean time, be the interesting person he wants to hang around. Guys get intoxicated with women with their own lives that do interesting things. He should be your focus while your own a date with him, but otherwise, you should keep dedicating yourself to the things in your life that you know will stick around. For me, that was hanging with family, going on road trips, taking a painting class, working out, going to concerts, and working on my photography. I made my husband drunk on how much I loved living life. He didn't want to be away from my energy.
Whisper 10y ago
High partner count isn't a result of being "easy", it's a result of being "pumped and dumped".
Seeing the issue as "easy" vs "not easy" focuses on securing investment from the man before sex can happen. It's essentially the use of sex as a bargaining chip. But investment isn't an concrete object which can be voluntarily given in exchange for something else.
It's a feeling and condition of attachment that one must inspire and motivate.
Instead of focusing on withholding sex, focus on inspiring emotional investment.
TehGinjaNinja 10y ago
Then find ways to keep him interested without sex. Yes, sex is very important, but men also want genuine companionship. If that wasn't the case then we'd all be satisfied with sluts.
If you can't find a way to be a companion to man rather than just a good fuck, if he can't enjoy your company without the prospect of immediately getting inside you, then you don't have LTR potential with him.
Don't expect him to accept that you are worth waiting for. Prove to him that you are worth waiting for by providing an immediate value beyond sex.
un-coolmom 10y ago
Absolutely! Cooking for men is a great way to keep interest, and spark interesting conversation.
The_Ringmistress 10y ago
You just described how my husband and I worked in our courtship. Respect is a two way street. If sex isn't on the table outside of long-term commitment (in my case, marriage was the only option), fine, but I had to respect his personal integrity as well.
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DaddyMonster 10y ago
This.
What women need to remember is that while women posses the sex card, men posses the commitment card. If a woman gives away her sex card too readily, it loses value. Same goes for men who give away their commitment card too cheaply.
So while it is normally a man's job to build the initial attraction and demonstrate his value, it is the woman's job to secure the commitment card of a high value man. The best way for a woman to secure a high quality commitment card is to have a really valuable sex card, which she doesn't give away just like that. She must sweeten the deal and build the relationship first. "Look at all the awesome things you get when you trade me your commitment card! Not only do you get my sex card, you get...... So stay for a while! My card is expensive and there is a delivery delay, but it is sooo worth the wait. "
Analogy:
The smart salesman tries to get as high a payment as possible for his product, and realizes that offering good support services and warranties are just as important to the discerning customer as the quality of the main product. With top notch support services and warranties, a serious high value customer will likely be prepared to pay a premium fee and to sign a long term deal.
TehGinjaNinja 10y ago
Actually you kind of missed my point, but in a subtle way.
I'm not arguing that a woman delay sex in order to raise it's value. I'm arguing that she should delay it in an effort to prove to the man she's after that she has value as a companion beyond sex.
It's not a matter of her denying him what he wants until he's willing to pay more for it in terms of commitment. It's about providing him with the companionship he wants, before she provides the sex he wants. This ensures that he provides the commitment she wants, because he wants her in his life, not just because he wants her in his bed.
sunflowergirly 10y ago
Great tips! How would you recommend someone master conversation? I think I'm a decent conversationalist now but there's always room for improvement, you know?
TehGinjaNinja 10y ago
Basics:
More advanced:
If you can't follow what they're saying, ask them to explain it in layman's terms or in a little more detail. This proves that you're paying attention and doing your best to keep up. It shows real interest in what they have to say.
Don't be afraid to admit ignorance, so long as you're willing to listen. This lets them play teacher, which makes them feel important and respected; i.e. dominant.
Take something they said, rephrase it, and throw it back at them (e.g. "It sounds like what you're saying is ..."). Worst case scenario, you get it wrong and they have to correct you, but you've proven that you're at least paying attention. Best case scenario you get it right and they think "Wow, this chick really gets me!"
The_Ringmistress 10y ago
Develop areas of interest through reading. Have a life. Have something to talk about. Then read through "How to Win Friends and Influence People" to get a handle on how to talk.and listen in a non-combative way. You should have a mind and an opinion, but you should be a sounding board, not a battering ram.
If you are talking with a guy who is into sports, learn about the games he likes. If you really don't care, that will come across. Maybe he's into military history. Find out what his area of specialty is. It allows you to ask better questions and possibly discover new things.
Ask questions. Be open to learning. If you disagree, say so, but be playful about it unless it's a real deal-killer (something.indicative of true incompatibility.)
sunflowergirly 10y ago
Okay, great. Thanks for the pointers. :)
Big_Man_On_Campus 10y ago
I want to flesh out an answer to this question as well. I find myself frankly puzzled by this from a non-PUA, wants-an-LTR point of view.
Here's the dillemma (forgive the fact that I am male please).
I want/need intimacy if I am to feel like I have some frame in the relationship. If I don't have intimacy from the woman, frankly it just feels like I'm being super beta and I actually get less interested. When I start feeling the beta come up, memories of past pain from rejections just push me away from wanting to go further.
She wants commitment if she is to feel like she has some future with me and security. I'm sure eventually she'll hit a wall-like symptom and get upset with me for not committing in some way before she opens up.
If she is a virgin or has a low low N (<2), she is NOT going to easily say, "ok, you're awesome, lets do it."... and how am I to blame her for such a position? OTOH, realistically, I feel like I should be insisting. My biology tells me I should be insisting on this, particularly since there's no pregnancy risk to her.
Seems like no-win.
LFCaptain 10y ago
Exactly!
How are you supposed to indicate a sexual interest without being a tease, or lowering your value?
If you wait to long, he will get bored and leave (or you will get bored). If you don't wait long enough, you run the serious risk of looking too easy and him ending the relationship, plus damaging your future chances because your number just went up by one.
It is hard to expect a man to commit without knowing if you're sexually compatible, in fact hard on both sides of it.
Both sides have something to lose, but I think the stakes are higher for women. If his number goes up by one, no one cares. But that one can make a huge difference for a woman to some men.
So how are you supposed to have intimacy and sexuality in a relationship without doing damage to it?
enticingasthatmaybe 10y ago
Well I can tell you that we know when you dig us. Pour on the touching and intimacy early and often, be as animalistic as you can muster. A former girlfriend of mine rubbed her cheek against my beard hard the first time we kissed. It felt so amazingly primal!
Leave no doubt that your interests are sexual and alphas will give you time. Remember that the high quality men know how awesome they are. They won't hold it against you if you can't seem to stop touching them.
I don't envy you ladies in this paradox at all, but stick your guns while also leaving no doubt how badly you want him. Don't leave him wondering if he's going to have access to sex if he decides to cut all other women loose.
jack500 10y ago
There's nothing wrong with being a tease. Show sexual interest by being a tease and it won't lower your value, it will raise your value.
un-coolmom 10y ago
When my husband and I were dating I understood that I was not the only woman that he was seeing. When he made the move, I told him that while I was attracted to him, and wanted to sleep with him, I didn't want to be one of many. He has told me that that was his tipping point to get serious with me.
If a woman that you're seeing has great potential, why not try for the LTR. You have your set of criteria, she meets it or she doesn't.
LFCaptain 10y ago
Thank you, this is one of the answers that crossed my mind, good to know it worked out well for you!
un-coolmom 10y ago
I thought that I would never see him again!
DaddyMonster 10y ago
Must've been gut wrenching. Good for you that it worked out.
jack500 10y ago
Very interesting question. Let's look at it this way, what is "marriage or the serious commitment equivalent" mean? When you say you want a man to "commit" to you, what does that mean?
Men who are interested in marriage/equivalent are probably interested in children. So the question is, when do you want to have the man's children? Before the era of scientific birth control, sex led to babies.
If you don't want to have the man's children, and you just want sex, cool, but again, then what does "commitment" mean? You just want your alpha to stop having sex with other women? For how long? What's in it for him?
Remember, your alpha has plenty of options. You may be sexy and have a great personality, but lots of women are sexy and have great personalities. You're really probably not that special, no more lovable than other women, right?
LFCaptain 10y ago
Not everyone wants to get married, and unless there are going to be children I'm not strongly opinionated either way, there are other arrangements where everyone is just as happy or happier.
I'm still undecided about children. I love kids, but I think I could be happy without my own if that was the best decision. If I'm having kids, it will be sooner rather than later.
Is monogamy that unreasonable? If I only wanted sex, I could find it any where just like a man can.
Under what circumstances would you stop having sex with other women and stick to just one? At what point do you decide you don't feel like doing that anymore and go back to sleeping with multiple women?
I get the impression that many women are unlovable, because of various anti-RP views. I'd like to think I'm at least more lovable than them, and that I have a little more to offer.
I've got no interest in having sex with a man who is still having sex with other women at the same time. Maybe that makes me unreasonable, but I have more respect for myself than to join some guy's rotation of bed partners. And if someone was interested in me long term, I'd expect him to have more respect for me too.
phasetwenty 10y ago
Perhaps it would be easier to think of this in the analogy of a trade. You want a monogamous relationship: you expect that he will not give attention to other women, and that you will have access to his resources and protection.
In a monogamous relationship, a man expects unrestricted access to sex, children and the care of said children and household.
Your replies suggest you're taking #2 off the table. Making matters worse, modern society made sure that you can easily #1 and #3. There is now some risk associated with the man's side: he can't easily withhold his end of the trade in response to you withholding yours.
The scale is out of balance. It really is unreasonable to expect a man to enter into a long-term relationship under these terms. Still, many men do it all the time.
jack500 10y ago
When she agrees to be my wife/mother of my children. I'm not even particularly concerned about the wedding/marriage, I'd skip it if possible. She would be my last sexual partner, I would hope for life.
Maybe I could say it like this: I would never commit to a woman. I would commit to a family.
I find women very lovable, it's the anti-motherhood attitudes that concern me. It used to be quite common for a young woman to want to marry and have kids at maybe 22. Now none of them seem to want that.
I think most women are like that. I'm usually only sleeping with one woman at a time, it's almost always like that. The rotation just happens over time, you "commit" to this one for a while, then break up, then "commit" to another one for a while.
LFCaptain 10y ago
It wasn't my intention to come across as anti-motherhood. I love kids, I've been a nanny and still love them. I've been able to hear my biological clock for a while now whenever there are babies around lol.
I've dated a man with kids before, and I would again. I think I would be ok with it if he didn't want more children. Or if I met a man and fell in love but he didn't want kids, I'd be ok too. That was what I meant, not that I'm against motherhood.
I'd like to be done having children by the time I'm thirty or so, seven years. Not very long but I'd feel better about doing it younger if possible.
The marriage with children thing is important to me because it gives a sense of unity. Father has the same last name as the kids....then there is the mother. I've never even considered anything but taking his name. It might seem silly to some but I think the nuclear family is a healthy environment even if it will make your kids the odd ones out with their peers. My parent's relationship wouldn't work for me but they are still married 30 years now!
jack500 10y ago
If you are looking for a traditional marriage to an alpha think about it this way. He's an alpha so he can have all the sex he wants because lots of women want to have sex with him - including you.
So if you're looking to hook him into marriage, sex is not your trump card. You have to hook him another way.
Assume you meet an alpha, there's mutual chemistry, but you can't have sex with him until and unless he marries you.
What can you do to keep him interested? What can you offer a high quality alpha man other than sex?
Keep in mind that alphas will have friends, they aren't the betas complaining they can't get laid on TheRedPill, so "companionship" is not some sort of trump card either.
I would really love to read pill women's ideas on that.
[deleted] 10y ago
This is a really difficult question. I'll say that my husband has told me that if I'd have slept with him on the first date, he would have written me off as "not LTR material". We sort of got around that by forced separation... I left the country for a few months, so we HAD to wait. Lots of great phone sex, I mean convos, during that time. Heh.
I'd say it's good to wait at least a few dates, but not more than 5? I don't really know, I'm sorta taking a stab in the dark.
LFCaptain 10y ago
Yeah, sounds like a different situation than the norm!
MuffManMikeTheThird 10y ago
As long as there is quantifiable and observable escalation that the man can objectively notice.. then the number doesn't really matter.
Sticking to a hard and fast rule like 'oh, must have sex by date 3' or 'ill leave him hanging till date 10' is stupid because it breaks the flow. You have to be able to determine the difference between being a good tease with ovetures of impending reward vs. blueballing bitch.
Intimacy can also ramp up slowly through the kiss, french kiss, feel up, heavy petting, grinding, fingering, handjob, mutual oral hierarchy before getting into full P in V. This shows progression for the man and maintains composure for the lady.
Having said that.. i ended up having sex with my new lady on date 3 which was her sleeping over at my place, so we already knew sex was in the cards and on the table. We had already conversed at length and everything was just clicking in terms of honesty, interests and ideology.. there was no need to withhold it for the sake of propriety. We already knew we were both high drive sex hounds ;)
Everyone at their own pace, but the key word i'd use (for the ladies) is escalation! So until you are absolutely sure this guy is a keeper, without fully jumping into bed with him. Time is the ultimate player filter for women. Most players wont wait, and the ones that will have a greater chance of showing their true colors whilst having to keep up a charade of actually caring about your interests or needs. Escalation keeps the good LTR candidates happy and weeds out the bad ones. (most of the time)
Good luck. Good hunting. And stop falling for AlphaRockDrummerMcGorgeousBadBoyBilly helps too (h/t Deti)
[deleted] 10y ago
Been debating on how to word what I do. I feel I have a pretty small number here - 3 guys and I'm 27 years old and been dating since I was 17. In that time period I've had one fling that lasted like 4 months and two LTR: the first 1 1/2 years, the second 5 years.
The easiest way to describe it is that I escalate out of friendship. Does that mean I put the moves on my male friends? Absolutely. My goal in general is to grab and keep interest before the first date. This is hard to do with someone who you are meeting from places like a bar/club. Besides a short-term fling is not my goal. In other words, I want to get to know a guy first. The easiest way to do that is to become friends. It doesn’t always work, there are times where you get shot down but just move on at that point. There are more fish in the sea and all that. Besides, if you have a good friendship just distance yourself for a little while and you can go back to being friends. With this method you do run the risk of being called a tease. I generally don't have this problem for a few reasons. First, I escalate one guy at a time. The second is I will only try to escalate if I'm genuinely interested. The third is I will actively distance myself from guys who try to escalate my friendship if I'm not interested.
Anyway, the main perk out of doing it this way is that I have established that I don't sleep around before the first date. That doesn't mean that I'm a prude in the bedroom or anything. Usually I won't go all the way on the first date, but I did in one relationship. Didn't seem to hurt my chances at all.
[deleted] 10y ago
I am very open about sex and enjoy sex a lot, but I had the problem that a lot of men have - I got bored with the men very quickly. I don't have a problem with have sex on the first date, but I would usually wait longer to make sure that I actually enjoy their company and won't be bored of them in short order.
Sex is easy, I don't need to go out of my way to just get laid. But it is rare to find a man that is good in bed and intellectually interesting, so I hold off until I know a man will keep my interest intellectual and then I can work on what happens in bed.
I am not trying to brag, but learn about sex (mechanics, massage, oral, etc.) and work on being good because if you are men will go out of their way for you. Men need to be aroused mentally (like women) as well as physically. I also really go into detail verbally about likes and dislikes, kinks and fetishes, so by the time I get to sex I am not going in blindly and I will get what I want.
Nutz76 10y ago
Interesting observation. Why do you think this is the case?
LFCaptain 10y ago
Because they are open about it maybe, they won't repress their feelings. They don't seem to have any problem voicing their desires and are just honest with themselves and their partners about expectations.
Can't see an alpha accepting a brush off from a woman whenever she doesn't feel like it.
[deleted] 10y ago
I think many non alpha's would prefer lots of sex but feel that it is "objectifying" their women and "only wanting them for sex"
LFCaptain 10y ago
Maybe that is the difference
[deleted] 10y ago
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[deleted] 10y ago
In today's marriage the role will not switch, the women still has all the power!
Big_Man_On_Campus 10y ago
This presumes you find a guy who wants to take the risk of marriage, a rather large presumption.
LFCaptain 10y ago
That's my concern with waiting til marriage, that I'd be waiting forever.
KetoJennic 10y ago
Umm... You should definitely sex him up before the wedding. Anyone who gets married without trying their partner out first is crazy.
SoftHarem 10y ago
It is a risk we all take. Guys risk their emotional vulnerability which can lead to nose diving attraction, and women risk their sexual vulnerability which can lead to nose diving attraction. There is no good answer other than once you have established an emotional connection with a man who would make a good father you should start putting out without coming off as easy, plain and simple. If you get burned you get burned, there are no guarantees in life, especially when it comes to dating.