Mental prep I haven't been on an actual dates since last year. They were with a 4 and 5, and didn't carry the weight of this one. It would hurt to go back and read those. I'm used to gaming a select few girls at school where I got some some social proof. I say all this to support that I was actually nervous for this date. I wanted a good outcome and was starting to get into my own head. I did some gratitude techniques to remind myself of what I have and to ease the feelings. I also physically wrote down on a sheet of paper some lines to manifest a good outcome and trick my brain into thinking it already happened. This is what I wrote: "it went well, we kissed, we vibed, Erin and I vibed and have man to woman." I like Todd V's "man to woman" phrase, so I used that. Did the writing make a difference, I can't say.
As I said, this is my my first serious date I've ever gone on so I wanted things to go well. The hour before the date I did some review with Todd V and how to go for the kiss: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_np8_sGcHII This video was more than what I asked for, it was super helpful. Todd's saying don't just create a moment to kiss but instead create a whole vibe where it can happen. He also says that in a pre-arranged date there's a social contract or an expectation that we both want it to go well. Not just me, but also her. It clicked, regardless of the outcome, I don't have to shoulder all of this. She's probably putting on makeup, doing her hair and tryna look pretty.. she also wants it to go well.
Venue 1, mini-golf Playing some hardstyle on the drive was taking me out of my head. We hug each other and start playing. I'm still a little nervous, but I focus on having fun with her. We flirt a little, and I don't try and fill every conversational pause. She starts asking me a couple questions (where I've lived before this, do I have siblings). I don't immediately answer but I have her guess and am trying to be playful. For example when she asked if I was the oldest or youngest I replied, "I'm the oldest youngest." Unlike times in past with girls, I decided to answer this time. I'm starting to experiment with answering lighter questions to see if it helps her connect to me, and hopefully me to her. There's a little kino, and we're having fun. Things like me sniping her moving ball and knocking it into the air.
At the end of the first 18 holes I realize I'm talking and thinking a little too fast and should slow down. I do that the second half, and there's a little more flirting this time with some good sexual innuendos lol. We finish and we just go to her car cause I'm like "let's see how messy it is." We talk for a couple minutes and she's asking about the plan. I could've kissed her there, there may have been some sexual tension but I think it would've felt forced imo. I tell her to follow me to venue 2.
Venue 2, casual bar She's parked next to me and before we go in I gesture to her to come in my car. Earlier she said she doesn't trust people and doesn't wanna get kidnapped which is why she didn't wanna carpool. I pressure flipped something she said into a tease. "Looks like your plans to kidnap me didn't work." She's in passenger seat now and I don't try and make a move. I just wanted her to see the inside of my car while I sipped some tea. I can't tell tell if this was sexual tension, nerves from the both of us or what. I think the sexual tension was building but not there. We go inside and head to the third floor of the bar which is a bit separated from the main floor.
Pool tables are taken, so we sit and talk for a few minutes.. my arm around her. I ask her why she's nervous at one point, can't remember why and that might've been spergish of me. Maybe I was tryna tease her. I was also slowing down more compared to earlier in mini-golf and not always talking to fill in gaps. I was experimenting with Todd V's just like at the girl and let it be awkward thing. I'd do that then smile. Think I overdid that because she asked why I was staring lol.
Anyways, pool table opens up and she and I play a game. Little banter and I lose (technical loss again). Couple guys that are brothers ask to play, I let em in. Duos, lady and I against them. 2 games in, lady got the last shot and won. Guys say we can keep playing, but in my mind I know lady and I don't want that. Can't get close to each other and escalate that way. We go off and play darts to play darts with my hand on her lower back during the escort.
Now kino's starting to flow. She's got chalk on her hands and wipes it on me. We were just warming up, now we're playing for real. My goodness, the kino.. I can gently pull her around and there's prolonged eye contact. It's getting closer to the end and I feel more tension. (I'm getting a nervous typing this part out). She pulls out the darts and hands em to me. This is the moment.. I put em off to the side, look at her.. but just say something instead. Fuck, I won't let this shit happen again. She's now wiping the chalk on my arm and starts drawing on my bicep (is this her trying to game me?) I ask if she's drawing tic-tac-toe and then say we should play. "Cat won" she says.
I'm sure there's so much tension at that moment, but I'm mostly feeling my nerves. I put the chalk aside, and while grabbing her hips I take a half step forward and kiss her. My goodness, and this pretty girl's actually kissing back. I break it off, and we dance for a few seconds before heading down to the bar. She says she has to go soon to be home on time, so I say let's bail to my car and play some music.
At my car "get in the back seat." We start making out while I cue some songs. I'm in the middle seat, and she's to my right with open legs. My hands on her thigh, and inside but closer to her knee. I alternate between the top and inside of her thigh. I get some LMR when she puts her hand on mine stopping it. I'm taking it slowly on her upper body also, she starts to readjust then looks at me. I put both seats forward and she straddles me in the back, now her kissing is more passionate. Now I can't really rub her crotch, but she starts to grind into me a little. I swear I caught her giving me the "fuck me" eyes at one point. I tried to go up her bare back slowly, but she again stopped my hand. I know LMR is more of a "not yet." She again tells me she has to go soon to be home by 10:30. So I don't have much time to escalate anyways, less than half an hour. We finish, she says she has to go now. We kiss and hug goodbye outside my car and she says she had a really fun time.
Throughout the evening I was subtly vetting her, and I get the impression she has a low body count (only went to homecoming and never went to a highschool party). I even had to tell her what pong is. It seemed congruent with her behavior, but I could be entirely wrong. Mentioning this is only relevant because it may increase my odds of building a connection.
This night will be on my mind, so I went dancing at a local bar. Regardless of who's on the floor and song, I'm there with 0 fucks given. 40 something year old women, try to dance on me, nope. I'm not there for that. A couple drunk girls gave me hugs and admired my dancing and energy, cool. I was just there alone, living my life for 2 more hours. That's the field report.
Questions What does a girl gaming you look like? Now I just met her Monday, how common is it for a girl to not let a guy finger her on the first date (especially if she's known him less than a week)? I'm just wondering if I made a mistake ramping things up in the car. I didn't have much time anyways. In my experience, it looks like the girls enjoy making out more than I do. Is that usually the case? I wonder if this is linked to my conscious restraint to walk away at any moment, and thus I'm not enjoying the moment.
Now Erin and I don't text for anything besides logistics. I'd prefer to keep it that way, and woke up with 0 messages from her. Upon some careful thought, I decided to text her "Hey Erin, I have fun vibing with you." I wanted to convey a little more comfort and that I wasn't just tryna fuck her. I'm not.. I want a connection. She hasn't texted back, but she just may not be on her phone much. She wasn't on the date and only checked to see if her Mom texted her (green flag).
Now this gets deep. Last night she said she had a fun time.. her hug felt real, her words sounded sincere. Yet.. I just don't believe her. I don't trust anything she says, nor her actions. Even in my limited experience, I've been pulled in all directions by a few girls. To build something with them, only to have it disappear. I don't believe the feelings she's conveying to me. Last night we vibed and had fun, but I was ready to walk away and never talk to her again. I hope to be wrong. It's probably shit like this that's largely responsible for my connection issues. That's why I needed to go dancing, to cope.
Thank you for reading, fine gentlemen.
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imtranscending 12mo ago
Going to start doing this.
Wym, like tell her she's free to go but stays instead? If you mean it's validating to the guy then I can see that. I may have misunderstood this line though.
I can see this. However it's not applicable for making out, otherwise you wouldn't have said your first piece of advice.
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imtranscending 12mo ago
This bullshit literally makes my head hurt. She doesn't have me, I could just walk away right now. Maybe I have her for all she knows. I cold approached, I ran some game, we vibed and had a great time.. why the fuck do I need to deal with this power/validation dynamic bullshit. Why can't we just continue to vibe and see where this goes? This is starting to look like what the blonde was doing, and I fucking hate it. I hate seeing people be straight up manipulative in a way that hurts others.
It's too early for me to go full dark triad, my search for a connection is too strong. Is being a nice, manipulative person trying to find a good good to date an option?
I can see this, I can deliver that to a degree. What I'm not currently cut out for is doing this ongoing manipulation where I try and get her more invested, etc. The more I think about this shit, the more detached I feel from the person. No joke, I've never touched a drug before, but I seriously feel like trying some right about now.
I'm already finding girls I click with, but they keep doing this stupid shit which is giving me reason to stay detached. They're taking what was a good time, and fucking ruining it by proceeding to play these validation games. I'm not gonna kill myself or my self-esteem to chase them. I'm a red-pilled motherfucker. Maybe they weren't into me in the first place DESPITE them saying it:
I will get jaded if this keeps happening.
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MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 12mo ago
Not bad especially without much prior dating experience. Main advice I have would be to get out of your head and enjoy being there with her. Like every other learning curve in life, this will happen naturally; as you learn techniques and procedures they automatize into your subconscious, freeing up your mental attention to live in and experience the moment.
That's fine; most LTR-worthy women aren't going to escalate to fingering in a car on the first date. As you're making out, start with your hand somewhere completely safe. Run it gently up and across toward the outside of her leg, then put it back to the safety zone, smoothly but before she has to block or move it away. When she wants you to escalate she'll probably give a little moan and kiss you harder. Many a woman has pulled my hands to her (still clothed) boobs if she wanted things to escalate farther and faster than I was going. If she freezes, steer the hand back to safety, smoothly and not like you were burned.
On this note, learning to unclasp a bra behind the wearer's back is a useful man skill.
Two steps forward, one step back to gauge her mood and reaction. But also don't keep ratcheting forward for more intimate touching without signals. For a second date, a walk through a nice park or nature center where you have some privacy but she doesn't feel alone and vulnerable is good. Walk a little, kiss a little, then stop and walk more, before she has to signal you to.
imtranscending 12mo ago
Thank you, I'm still a virgin and only got my first kiss last year. I've kissed more girls this month alone than in my entire life.
Does where one starts matter, will it make a difference if I start somewhere a little less safe and she allows it?
I definitely went too fast, I would've slowed down if we had more time. I spent little time in the safe zones, I still undoubtedly lack experience.
This girl moaned once, and man she was making out with me. Even when I'd pull back, she was quick kiss again.. I could've held the tension longer if I tried. What do you mean "if she freezes"? Unclasping a bra can be very useful.
I don't really know what these "signals" look like besides a little moan.
An endorsed contributor commented on my post, wow. Coolsocks said you also authored the push-pull article, so I'm also gonna be reading that. Thank you MentORPHEUS.
mattyanon Admin 12mo ago
right. don't take them too seriously too quickly.
girls are not trying to build something with you. they either exploit (friendzone) or fuck you, but they are never trying to build something with you. building is what men do, feeling is what women do (and usually overthinking and talking too).
give it time dude.
you're fine. girls flake, change their mind, and worst of all: have a sort of limit of how far they'll go with a guy depending on herself and how attracted she is. you'll find out. try not to emotionally commit, and find more girls.
imtranscending 12mo ago
do they just say that shit because they're in the feelz?
they don't build connections? Connections aren't static, they're weakened and strengthened, thus they can be built. I'm not understanding something here
It's like once I'm out of their sight and it's the very next day I blend in with the noise of the other guys.
that can be extremely manipulative which is fucked up. so they'll do the things which'll convey interest to a guy, but "it's not like that" in their head and they don't actually like him? Where does this concept even come from?
Wym by this? Your premise about them having limits on guys make sense, but now I can't fucking tell anymore when they're interested. If the connection isn't built then how is it formed or made?
Now I know why it's said to fuck the girl, that's the (only?) way to see real interest. The blonde was just using me, now Idk about Erin.. but I'm seeing similarities between the two and am recognizing a pattern. Thinking about it all this evening was really saddening me. Not the loss of a specific girl, but instead watching it all dissolve in front of me again. The pain man, and the contradictory actions are just fucking with my head. I reached my emotional threshold, and so my mom asked what was wrong because I'm never like this. I straight up told her and she's more red pilled now.
mattyanon Admin 12mo ago
Yes. Female feelings are transitory.
They don't actively make efforts to build connections unless they are attracted. Even then, their efforts are internal rather than external: she'll spend hours worrying "does he really like me", and zero seconds inviting a guy on a date.
Exactly this.
It gets her attention and it's fun.
You were exactly the same with the chubby chick: it was a lot of fun but as far as you were concerned it's "blowjobs only", with no desire to fuck her or date her.
So men are the same, but what's different is that women get vastly more opportunities to behave like this.
I mean this: don't trust feelings in the moment, but trust her more if it's consistent over a period of weeks. But even then it's transitory: it's all a function of circumstance, it's absolutely not "you are compatible" or worse "you and she are meant to be" or the worst: "soulmates". These statements imply a degree of permanence that is illusory and serves only to benefit women (via security and provisioning) at the man's expense (as the providers of security and provisioning).
The feelings are real, but feelings always change. You can have a lot of fun for a few years, but it always changes, especially if you make commitments.
The man makes shit happen.
yes
Sorry to say but you have to accept that this is how they are and this is what they do.
Don't take any advice from a woman and worst of all your mother. They ALWAYS give advice to benefit women and not you.
Here's an observation for you: you are playing at the level of feelings and emotions. Women love this because they win. You are looking for something from a woman that you don't have in yourself, and this is a mistake because you'll always feel empty this way. The connection you seek will not fill the hole in your soul, you'll always be dependent on someone else to feel complete, you'll always be in a weak position, you'll always be needy and women will sense this and be repelled or they'll exploit it.
I know this isn't what you want to hear. You want to hear how to make women desire to give you what you want, but it can't be done and this is the path to true unhappiness.
Learn how to find what you crave within yourself and within your friends and society. Women are great, it's fun to fuck them, they can be great company and they can add something great to your life....... but the second you need it is the second it all unravels.
The best players don't get their feels too involved. They like women, but don't care too much about any of it. This is how to win: care less, need less. Make efforts, make shit happen, enjoy the results, but never need it like you do.
imtranscending 12mo ago
Female feelings are transitory.
Basically what this RP guy (I'm thankful for him and you guys) from my class said today. "'If she's into you she'll wanna take up all your time. Always texting, facetiming and wanting to hangout."
This is likely NOT the care with Erin (this girl). They won't invite on a date, but they'll still try to reach out and see what I'm up to right? In other words "try to take up my time"?
I stand by my point. It's very manipulative when she DOESN'T admit it's not serious (which is where most women fail) because it plays our biology and the guy thinks there's something there.
Yup, originally. But I decided against it because it would be manipulation to not tell her my intentions. NOW I know that even IF I say my intentions, she'll get hurt. Fuck that, and fuck manipulation. We still flirt a little, but she knows where I stand because I OVERTLY told her.
I was lucky enough to have this RP guy classmate + a female one (she's cool, and they're friends of each other and maybe mine one day) joined the discussion too. They were repeating all of this matty. It's just one big mind fuck to me, I thought I understood TRP for the most part. But I completely missed this half of it. That women will do behave like this with 0 intention of even getting with the guy or romance. I thought because I was passing shit tests, going out on dates and making out, I'd gotten there so to speak. But nope, that's only half the picture and she likely had just 1 outcome in mind. I'd in fact gotten nowhere. Now it's just depressing and like I'm swelling TRP again.
Man, this second half is brutal and much darker than the first half I mentioned. They also said with this understanding I need to hard next and move on because despite getting intimate, it was all just a "fun time." (But as a RP male, I need to know that). If she does come back, have self-respect and ignore her. If she asks why, put her in her place and say you want nothing to do with her.
I don't. My mom wanted to know what was wrong, so I told her and said I don't want advice. We've been having these kinds of discussions for over a year now and she's slowly being red pilled because the son she loves is showing her the painful red pill truths. She didn't argue, and now sees why we say to fuck the girl to gauge interest. He also agreed to your point about keeping emotions out of it.
Matty, isn't a connection like this biological and innate? I've also confessed that I've tried to find this connection with other people and guys and can't find it. I've just had this absence in me for years.
I'm struggling to find that.
Matty, I've thought a ton about this and have some questions now:
Since Erin (presumably) just used me for a fun night and some making out, does that mean I wasn't the alpha or the chad to her? (I'm trying to get an objective take on this) Because I didn't know her thoughts, and she didn't say this was just for fun (unlike the female classmate who does so):
Is this the outcome because my game was just not good enough?
Was she objectively manipulative and did she just use me for a night of fun?
Was I only used because my expectation was not based in reality (drawing too much from one evening because of my lack of understanding of female nature)? I mean even knowing this, she could still use me for the fun, thus pissing me off causing me to hard next her. I can't know her intentions unless she tells me.
Was she ever attracted to me in the first place, (maybe a little, but not at the chad level impression she gave)?
Should I take my RP classmates advice and just hard next for good, delete her # and never text her again BECAUSE she hasn't texted me back or reached out? The last message I sent was on Saturday morning and read "Hey Erin, I had fun vibing with you." That's more than 2 days ago, and classmate said to hard next. I've had trouble controlling the thoughts that something might've happened to her, but know double texting will fuck up the dynamic for good and is a loss of self-respect. I still having trouble believing these women (even non-hoes) can be so comfortable ghosting after a genuinely good time. Erin didn't give off hoe vibes, (went to a small school, never did a party, never even heard of pong).
Is this the result of me failing to escalate? Why is she doing this?
What are these feeling? It's like post red pill discovery depression all over again, and it feels like I miss her, or the opportunities we could've had. If I do miss her, how come it didn't immediately kick in the next day when I didn't even like her that much (I mean ffs, I wasn't overly excited about the making out at the time..)? (Could it not have kicked in because this was before I realized there was 0 chance of connection between us). I'm usually good at figuring this out, but it's very cloudy now.
This is a long reply, and I've put a lot of thought into it and the questions. Thank you.
mattyanon Admin 11mo ago
Yes once you start seeing each other or she thinks you might.
yes, but you have to accept that women do it. immoral or not, it happens and it's your job to ditch them when it does.
I don't know. Girls often "let things happen" rather than creating situations.... sometimes they know it will end badly but do it anyway, sometimes they actively do it. Usually they're being selfish and enjoying the moment and blanking out the consequences.
As I said before - learn not to take stuff so seriously too quickly.
yep
She won't be honest, so you'll never know
Who knows.
more or less... but.....
if she's not replied with a couple of days she's not interested. give up on her 100%, but don't delete her number. sometimes they come around, but it's rare.
nothing happened to her, she's fine.
right
get used to it.
get used to it - you never can tell
if you fail to escalate the whole dynamic doesn't work. you should be trying to escalate, if you're a pussy women lose interest fast. Is Erin the chubby "don't want to fuck her" girl? If so, you shouldn't care one iota..... you decided to move on, don't be upset that she did.
you are wayyyyyyyyyyy over invested in this girl
you hoped it would lead to more ?
Not sure, but you're way over invested in individual girls, it's like oneitis. Learn to seduce all the girls, don't focus on just one that you're not fucking, it will fuck with your head
imtranscending 11mo ago
I've taken your points above, brutal truths.
Sometime in the future I'm gonna attempt a system of game to uncover some of these answers while gaming a girl.
What I mean is successfully escalate beyond kissing to a minimum level of fingering. Erin is not the overweight girl. Erin is the girl I cold approached last monday with asking to play pool as my opener. Scheduled date Wednesday, and went on date Friday. My overweight friend is still around and is my theatre club secretary lol. We hang out as a group and still flirt a little, it's fun but I'm keeping her as a friend. She's just nice and genuine, I got the idea of rewarding our friendship from the redpill classmate. Take her out on a date, but keep it platonic.
The pain of loss is great, and of course.
How is this different from oneitis? Classmate also said I'm tunnel visioning on specific girls once I have dates lined up with them.
As of today I've started to obsess the reason she ghosted me. I've 0 problems with this before (never been ghosted like this before). Perhaps it's my face. Any ideas? It seems all the reddit advice is shit, besides the obvious "maybe she didn't have a good time.
It's been eating away at me because I want to know if it's ME or HER. " If it's me then I can improve.. I just have so little experience I want to know if I'm doing something wrong early on. My field report reads well, but this is from all my POV and I'm starting to doubt my own game and get inside my head.. Now I'm starting to hamster the possibility that she faked it all and didn't have a fun time like she claimed. Logically, if she did have a fun time, she'd want more fun times with me. Right? It's just unhealthy that people do this, and it's unhealth I'm obsessing about it rn.
mattyanon Admin 11mo ago
It's like oneitis yes. Your classmate is right.
It's not about giving a girl a good time. It's about forming a sexual and emotional bond with her while being aloof enough that she fears she might lose it. She can have a good time with friends.
Each girl is not relevant. You need to experience lots of girls, find out what works for you. You can't look at anything to do with one specific girl.
Dude.... quit this line of thinking..... ONE GIRL DOES NOT MATTER. Doesn't matter if she orgasmed on sight or said you smell of dogshit, it's ONE GIRL.
Logically yes, but she's female.
Yes
So stop doing it and focus on yourself and lining up more girls/.
coolsocks00 1 12mo ago
Was gonna comment on your last post that you needed to get to isolating and sexually escalating. You succeeded and should be very happy with how it went.
Too much push and not enough pull during escalating in the car. You have the EC author of the Push/Pull article in here giving you advice so take it.
imtranscending 11mo ago
I'm happy with that part, I have balls. I somehow missed this half of TRP about women manipulating the man for some quick intimate fun so she can be in her feelz with 0 intention of taking things further which also gets the man hooked into giving her attention. Now as my classmate says, I need a spine to just suck it up and hard next every time.
Why do you think she's ghosting me? (and see me reply to mattyanon's comment above)
Or her playing tricks on me/not being honest and taking the free attention. I think you're right, I don't understand women.