we genuinely don't. but you can become a better friend than another man can be to your man which is what a successful relationship is.

I enjoy Kevin's content a lot but agree with you as and others in the comment section as well. He's a great salesman and knows how to steer a conversation etc.

From everything he has talked about the following things seem to me the most important (from my male POV) if you want to optimize your chances of marrying a HVM;

Be caring, affectionate, show interest, be respectful, feminine, work out, be as fit and beautiful as you can be and date with the intention of marriage. Try getting married from 25-27 and don't have kids before you marry. Lastly; understand your rating in terms of SMV and set your expectations accordingly.

The issue for many women coming on his show is that they are already baby momma's or too old and/or (very) overweight. Usually combined with a bad attitude. And the fact of the matter is that it will take a herculean effort to climb out of that 'hole' and most won't be able to do it. So Kevin just tells them to buy a dog or get an average man because that's the best they will get.

A couple is a good power structure when they are not in opposition of each other, whether it’s pairs of arms and legs or pairs of people. There is always a dominant hand but that’s not to say one can’t be ambidextrous. Can there be two lead legs? Can there be two heads of a household? Men and women need each other to procreate but we all come from the womb of a woman, not without a mans seed. Our roles are genetically defined but technology advances cause us to view each other as less useful. The blame has to be on men for making the bar so low a woman doesn’t even want to walk over.

We don't.

We want them.

A male perspective:

First, regarding Kevin Samuels.

I enjoyed his content for a day or two until I started becoming frustrated. He uses salesman tactics to steer the conversation and is not consistent in his expectations. First, you can observe a pattern where he will ask a the woman "what kind of man do you want?" and she will inevitably say "Tall, good looking, super successful, super rich" etc. and Kevin will chide her on not prioritizing the mans character and virtues. If she DOES lead with a mans character and virtues he will ask "how many kids do you want and do you want to stay home to raise them?" and the girl will usually say yes. Then he flips it into saying she needs a man with a 6-figure salary.
He will also insist that he is about the data, the facts, and the logic. He criticizes women for saying "I feel...". But then will use an "I feel..." statement to counter her logic.

Th gist of what he is doing can be useful, but I find his method really annoying.

Secondly, How do men need women?

So, there is something to be said about a womans earning potential. Back in the ye' olde days one of the big assets of a man was ability to provide for a family. Now that woman are afforded greater access to an income or government support this aspect of men either diminishes (if she matches or out-earns him) or shrinks her dating pool (if she expects the man to earn more than her).
Men tend to want to make their women proud of them. If a mans nature is to fight, hunt, protect and provide, then it's the warm feminine energy that calms him down and grounds him. He comes back from war and she dresses his wounds, so-to-speak. Woman offer a revitalizing role in mens lives. Men who genuinely love the women in their life will sacrifice everything to protect them. Moreso if the nature of those women is good (loving mother, adoring wife, happy daughter etc).

The nuances start showing up once you factor in modern relationship trends, cultural pressures, and other issues. By and large, men just want the kindness, health, and vibrancy that all women have. We LOVE when you girls praise us for our efforts "ohh! My hunk fixed the door! What CAN'T he do?!" kinda thing haha. With that said, I do think there is a soft spot in mens hearts for the lioness side of women too. I guess the inverse of the male archetype? As in, it appears the ideal male nature is outwardly strong and stoic with hints of vulnerability. The woman, therefore, would be outwardly vulnerable (kind, supportive, nurturing) with hints of strength. ??

Just my 2 cents

HVM have a certain body count, earn +6 figures, is tall, and can be resourceful to as many other women as he wants. (But if everyone has him, how is he high value.?) ANYWAYS, a frequent question the hosts asks, is what women bring to the table besides sex+children, to which the women respond: I bring peace, I cook all the meals, I clean the house, I help him with his work, job, I provide emotional support, I take care kids.

They say to have a high body count to understand the details of the games women play & so you don't have a scarcity mindset that puts women on a pedestal. I.E. to know most women are not special.

Earnings six figures is a betterment goal...they know most won't make it, but encouraging improvement helps men with purpose in life.

Not everyone will be or have a HVM but the point is to be / get the highest value you can.

When they say that is good, it is appeasement to ease the feelings of those women so they are more receptive to the counter point/list of things those women should bring. I've never heard F&F say women should be emotional support, but they do believe women should be nurturing (cook, clean, childcare) and peace of home. Most of the ladies actually respond with companionship and emotional support...few say cook or clean, and the ones that say peace typically have no idea what that means.

The hosts advise girls to listen to their (rightfully) overprotective fathers who say ‘don’t sleep with men on the first date’! Yet, the hosts want a girl to say yes to sex on the first date so she doesn’t leverage sex against you. No wonder we’re lost and confused.

They say listen to fathers because fathers will typically try to vet for commitment and won't be blinded by the tingles/butterflies. This is because we need to return to the days of vetting people for commitment.

The second part is the current reality...the majority of women now only vet for sexual attraction/ fun. As long as that is the case the probability is women are using men if they don't want sex with those men because most women are fairly promiscuous now.

I see a lot of contradictions in their statements on what they ‘WANT’ within a women, but there are SO MANY comments just seem to say “I can do all of that myself anyways, and I have my boys to back me up emotionally…ect.” How should a woman build herself up to be necessary for a man then?

Honestly, stop reading the comments on F&F. The men there are a huge varied mix and many don't yet understand the macro concepts. Additionally, many are just angry and latch on to the parts that sound good to them.

Homely skills are very valuable. Just because a man can do something as a bachelor, the point of a couple, is that a division of labor makes life easier for both individuals.

Feminism has done sweeping generational damage to society and it will take time for many to learn, accept and embrace the old wisdom.

Hope that helps, feel free to ask further questions.

We all have two eyes, two arms and two legs and in our post-industrialized society you can live as a single person. We don't *need* one another to feed and clothe ourselves, men can clean (always could) and women can have jobs (always could) but that's a pretty low bar.

Yes, there is no one thing (apart from birth and lactation) that men can't do that women can. You don't need a wife to make you soap anymore, you can just buy it. There is no one thing that men can do that women can't with enough technology ... and? Must we really die without each other to be useful?

(The same question can be asked with the sexes reversed ... why would a whamen need a man? We can drive cars and shoot guns)

The truth is that a couple (married and with children) is a good power structure. If it wasn't, then humanity wouldn't have been ruled by a king/queen couple for millenia. It wasn't a king and his gang of mistresses ruling a land, it wasn't the king and his mom. A couple is the best to raise future generations (which we need to keep into consideration; some things we do for others, not for our own selfish pleasure) and it seems that couples reach good decisions. A partner whom you can trust to have your best interest and to see your flaws is a good bet if you want to be successful. Men and women's minds differ in temperament (ex men are risk takers while women are risk averse) and when you confront these two in a discussion, what results from it is something that has taken two extremes into consideration. If a man and a woman are bound by a child together, then that means you have a partner you know for sure has the same interest as you. You can't say that for your friends or your siblings, your partners and your colleagues. The overwhelming majority of religions, traditions and laws in history required people to be in a monogamous and heterosexual marriage. It would be silly to throw that away as some custom and not a wise tradition.

I find it curious that we rarely mention that men have feelings too. They don’t need us to cook, clean, etc. that is true. We also don’t “need” them if we have high paying jobs (this is debatable though).

However, men are not robots who are programmed to work, have sex and earn money. They have needs and feelings, although they aren’t the same as ours.

To think that we as women are only worth to men because we cook, clean, have sex and children with them is very superficial. Men have feelings, emotions, wants and fears.

Women and men need each other for various reasons, if you are religious, it is easier to see these reasons. But I guess they need us to feel strong, capable, masculine and admired, as men will never feel this way about other men (fathers and sons are an exception). We need them to provide and love us, they need us as their fuel, their basis.

At least that’s how my husband and other HVM think (we are religious though). These men aren’t ashamed of saying they need their wives because they picked good partners.

Well, it depends:

If the man is looking to start a family, he will NEED a woman who is happy taking care of the home and raise the kids, while he makes money.

If the man is someone who just wants to live a child-free life, then the woman he'll need is someone that is aligned in that goal, and also independent with her own career.

The way to become indispensable is to be married, and be all you have described. One of the latest sayings in the Christian community among men is "If it weren’t for sex, men wouldn’t have anything to do with women." Yikes. If the guy is concerned about sex as leverage, don’t even play with that crap and just say no sex until marriage snd mean it. The manosphere is so delusional in that they all see themselves as HVM and women as whores and hypergamers. What do women bring to the table? Sex and children? Sounds pretty fucking major to me.

I feel there is a double standard when it comes to the RP men. I'm not saying it's actually how RP mentality is, I'm still learning it myself, but this "my way or the highway" mindset isn't it. If you ever venture over to the RP men subreddits they act like women are props to a set. Nothing more, nothing less. They expect you to be wholesome and pure but at the same time feel they need to fill their royal oats before settling down. So if you're not a virgin when they get o you, you're at the level of a "plate", a quick meal that won't last long. If you're a virgin and have good morals you're more likely to be looked at as marriage material. The sad part the guy that will see you as marriage material might actually not be the HVM you're looking for because they were already playing the field in the bedroom while you keep your Chasity belt on. Yeah he may have the money, the car and the suits to show he's high quality but as far as I see it, if he's not committed to me as a husband then I don't want the money, the cars and the suits. The thing is if men are saying that they don't need us to emotional support or cooking meals, taking care of the house while they work, then what else are we here for? Sex. That is it at that point. And maybe to be a trophy wife. But it stops there. They say "oh I don't need a woman for "this" and "that"" then have the gull to ask why they can't find one. They don't bring anything to the table outside of a paycheck. Big deal. Not all RPW want a man that can pull 6 figures. I'm not. I want a man with a job that can provide and not be some bum. I might be off the mark on RP life but I don't think it's that black and white. I've looked at those RPM sites and the toxicity is real. Like I wouldn't want them if I was guaranteed a lifetime taken care of. Luckily not a lot of them think the same way. There are a few that think with their actual heads. But there are some that makes me wonder if RPM and Incels got something in common.

I thought Fresh and Fit had some great content at first but the more I watch them, the more I get annoyed. Contradictions, repetitive topics, and other weird “beta” things they say.

Out of nowhere one of the host cuts off this blonde woman while she was talking and asked if she’s a “night rider” (into “bbc”). Like bro…. Way off topic, stop thinking with your dick and listen for a minute

Point is, these dudes are fake

First off great post! Another male perspective here. RPer for a while. Being watching, reading, consuming multiple angles for some time. I’ll try be concise, but a lot to cover.

First you are absolutely correct about the clickbait/outrage of some of their stuff, but that’s the culture we have created with Twitter/FB/social media. Outrage gets attention. But however, they do offer solutions, it’s just they are quite nuanced and I think hard to pick up on (like you said if they gave them out, nobody would come back).

As to the first contradiction stated, those values are indispensable but we won’t come to you for emotional help because far too many times it has happened when we do do that, and get burnt. The solution: talk to your boys/men about the big problems, talk to her about small ones. This has worked wonders for me, and vastly improved relationships with both sexes.

Second contradiction: we want girls with a low notch count as it shows purity, reservedness, and control (let’s face it any decent looking girl could have 100s if not 1000s of notches if they wanted), we don’t like that. They are advocating that you don’t let a girl dangle sex over your head for a long time. It doesn’t mean sex on the first date, just within 3-4 if she’s into you (or atleast moving the physical needle every date). And if she genuinely DESIRES you, she won’t leverage it.

We have learned these skills because as more women work and make money, men have had to share housework/cooking, cool nbd. But we still need a women’s softness, vibrant energy, and femininity to keep us going. It’s not us vs you or you vs us. We NEED each other to balance the yin/yang energy. So although we can survive without you, we still inherently NEED you.

I believe your last paragraph when it comes to retaining a man is spot on! My best relationship is currently with somebody who cooks for me, takes care of me physically (head rubs and such), has never once nagged me (always peaceful after 1.5 years), and is feminine and a joy to be around. Pure joy to be around. Be that, and I’m hard pressed to believe any man will complain.

Don’t let others fool you into thinking we WANT to do it by ourselves. We COULD, but I assure you, just as most women don’t want to be single w/ cats at age 40; men vice-versa don’t WANT to be single at 40 w/ dogs only.

The culture is pervasive in the sense it tells both sides they can do it by themselves. And they are right. But neither side wants that. Women need to drop the strong independent women act, and become submissive and feminine more. And men likewise need to drop the act that they want a 50/50, and need to lead by example and be the strong masculine type women would want.

Seriously amazing post, I hope mine made sense too. Looking forward to a good discussion about it.

First, there will always be contradictions. No one always knows exactly what they want/need. It sounds like contradictions due to being opposites but realize we want something in the middle.

Second, no one 'needs' someone else. We want or desire to have someone else in our lives. Hopefully, the person we want has a positive impact on our lives.

I want to add personally, cooking just by myself and only for myself is boring. It's way better to share a meal and cook together.

As for men going for the 'hot bimbos', many of us think with our lower brain first, then our actual brain when we see them.

You don't need to be beautiful to everyone, just be attractive to the person you are with. The easiest way to do that is body language and word usage. I would recommend the books 'the five love languages' and 'how to win friends and influence people'.

I can go into more detail about anything if you want.

A lot of “red pill” youtubers are a bit disconnected from actual red pill theory IMO. This is how they make money: generate outrage -> gain views -> make some money -> get both negative and positive press -> get more views -> make more money. While these channels hit on a lot of the buzzy RP topics and RP vocabulary, their main function is to generate outrage, not give actual solutions to either gender nor go into the intricacies of RP theory (both on the men’s and women’s side).

This is because if they do give effective solutions, their audience won’t really be so outraged anymore and won’t come by in droves to watch their content and make them money. There’s a reason why their self-improvement videos don’t do half as well as their outrage videos: most people would rather be resentful of the state of the world than to do anything to improve their own odds.

Eventually, those improvement videos slowly start to dwindle as they shift their focus to the outrage (like Fresh and Fit are doing right now) and they eventually stop making self-improvement content entirely (like Kevin Samuels’ male improvement videos did). So they manage to keep their viewers frustrated and don’t really offer many solutions, especially not many solutions for women, because it’s the more profitable option. In reality, these solutions are available for free thanks to the Internet.

Now, to answer your question: yes, men absolutely can do these things for themselves. Men don’t NEED women at all. But there’s a reason why it takes such strong deprogramming and such strong outrage to get men to stop their protective instincts for women. Most men have a deep biological urge to provide and care for their woman. Even if the state of affairs has shifted dramatically to the detriment of the average Joe, that instinct is still there.

If you are a woman who is feminine, nurturing, submissive, vulnerable, beautiful, and are willing to work with him as the Captain and you as the First Mate, you give yourself the best chance possible of earning his trust and reaping the benefits of his protective instincts. When he can tell that you’re a keeper because of what you can bring to the table and your willingness to work together and not as an adversary, even if he can bring the same to the table himself, he most likely lowers his guard and lets you in anyways, because he deeply WANTS (not needs) a feminine woman in his life.

A lot of women get this confused because they can’t make their peace with the fact that men don’t NEED women. Much to the chagrin of the feminists literally saying otherwise, women absolutely do NEED men. Even in the modern world, our survival, happiness, and wellbeing (both physical and mental) depend on a man’s stability that we can lean and rely on, as well as the grueling maintenance of society done by male labor. This is where understanding and accepting that men and women are different is so important. He may not NEED you in the same way that you need him, but he certainly WANTS you, and desire is a hell of a force. Give him what he so deeply wants, be trustworthy enough that he doesn’t doubt your every motive, and even the thought of leaving you won’t cross his mind, the Wall™ be damned.

(And yes, when the right time comes, sexual satisfaction between the both of you is incredibly important too.)

I've noticed the same thing with these podcasts and videos. I'm a man and I often think about what I want out of a relationship and honestly, all I want is a best friend. If we are best friends then that's all I need from you. everything else goes along with that, in addition to sex.

Men don’t need women and women don’t need men.

You should not look to be with someone who needs you, but someone who wants you.

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This to me (I'm new, though) is the difference between the regular Red Pill sub and tbe Red Pill women sub.

The Red Pill sub is full of men whining about how life is unfair and how the world would be better if women just did what would make THEIR (I.e., the men's) lives better. I would put the RP YouTubers you cited in this category.

To me, this dynamic seems to be men offloading all responsibility onto women to MAKE their lives great and relationships gratifying, under the phrase "returning to traditional gender dynamics."

(Ps. In no traditional gender dynamics framework to men whine all the time.)

On the other hand, in some of the communities I follow I see women say they want men who not only are providers, but who also do all of the housework and let them "just give their feminine energy in return." This seems to me like the female equivalent of the male trope I just described - women offloading responsibility for life's problems onto the male gender as a whole.

RPW seems so far to me to be about women who want a more traditional gender dynamic for THEMSELVES, to varying degrees (there are career women as well as SAHM's here, I think) and don't especially care what other people do.

I don't have an answer to your Q, OP, mostly because I believe that men need women for the same reasons all people want a life partner - love, emotional support, someone to go through life with.

But I might encourage you to come up with your own definition for what would make you happy in a relationship, instead of researching a framework and "trying to do it right." There are all different kinds of people in this community with different things that would make them happy - I recommend finding yours.

The hosts say these values are great and are indispensable. BUT then, contradict their own opinions by saying men shouldn’t be looking to women for emotional support because women aren’t equipped to handle a mans mind.

There are two similar, but very distinct, concepts in what a woman can do to support a man, and she's generally only capable of one of them. They often get conflated, and I suspect that this difference is why he sounded like he was contradicting himself but actually wasn't. Let me explain.

The first concept, that of the First Officer to his Captain, is very possible. To be supportive, encouraging, uplifting, and a soft landing place is totally doable.

The second concept is the emotional support. Men don't feel and think like women, at all. Women have difficulty at best empathizing and relating to the emotional difficulties that a man feels. So don't be his emotional support; you can't. But you CAN be his support when he is emotional. See the difference?

The easiest way to understand the difference in this regard is by a past survey. When asked which they would rather have, love or respect, men said respect and women said love. When you understand that difference and the vast gulf in needs it represents, you'll be on your way to understanding how men do - and don't - need women.

girl please do not listen to anything kevin samuels says

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I honestly think the host hates women. He gets so aggressive sometimes when he speaks to them.

For example, I was living alone and then adopted a dog, a small puppy of 2 months, she is now 9 months. Did I do it because I need the puppy? Or because I need to be loved by some lovely and super friendly animal? No. I did it because my life was in so much order, that I could afford to share my love with someone else. All the problems men have come from not having worked on that inner value to be able to then share for real. So, it's not that you need the woman, you don't, it's that you have more than enough within yourself and you want to not only make your life richer but that of everybody else. Also, some women are not completely dumb, some are smart and have their own opinions and they are also human beings, they can be a friend too. Yes, women are not needed, but they can be the perfect companion for a man that's why humanity works.

Ps: oh and I forgot to add, I don't know how trust worthy this feeling is but some women are so specially gorgeous that they make a part of your soul shine in happiness, it's just like seeing something precious

I would upvote this post twice if I could. Not because I think men don't need women, but because I think both genders often fail to understand where their partner's value comes from, in this case women's.

"A man doesn't NEED a women but WANTS her:"

This, generally speaking, is a truthful point BUT there is an importance nuance to watch out for. I agree that (decent) men still have a biological tilt towards caring for their women, as if they are this sunshine of tenderness that makes them happy and allows them to "drop their shields" from the daily social strands.Something important to keep in mind however, is that house chores can be replaced by one's self or a maid. Parenthood can come from in vitro or adoption. Sex has FWB, paid, or ONS alternatives and unless you make him feel like no other women ever could, he will enjoy the sex but not consider you irreplaceable for it.

​

The distinction for a man to consider a women indispensable comes from its RESPECT for her, I can't stress this enough. Having someone you enjoy spending time with as in an augmented "best-friendship" with the added intimacy, something that will build a connection that fulfills the man and due to the investment and compatibility you built over time, will create something (some sort of passive feeling when you're together) very hard to be replaced with, thus bringing you unique value.

It also requires a bit of admiration. You don't have to be the best in the world at anything, but showing and putting effort goes a long way. No matter if it's progressing in your career or cooking a meal, strive for having a surprise occasionally to "wow" your SO, and improving how you do throughout the years. I guess this brings a bonus of motivation to grow yourself in whatever duty you want him to recognize your impact.

​

Lastly, if you find yourself thinking "this could almost go both ways", that's because it might. Men and women will differentiate in their physique, and have a tendency in how they prioritize thoughts, how they respond certain environments. but when it comes to not being replaceable on a whim, this may be one of the areas we share more than we think!

TL,DR: Male biological urge doesn't guarantee a women has indispensable value. Respect for what she brings is key, and imho it's gained through hard-to-compare chemistry and occasional effort.

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Reasons for a man to want a woman: To not be lonely, to be seen and heard, to be in good company, to have someone that cares about you, to have someone to celebrate your achievements with. It feels so incredibly good to share a life with someone. Many men are lonely and long for an 'emotional home', no matter if they are high value or not. No one likes to admit that because it makes one vulnerable. Source: I'm a man, I know other men, and I have spent many years in cohabitation with my previous girlfriends. Women can make men happy simply by being themselves, when they are in a harmonious relationship with their male partners. My ex girlfriends made me happy simply by spending time with me. I enjoyed their personality and our life together. I'm red pilled but I think most of the red pill YouTube content (like fresh and fit) is really shallow and can be misleading.

What do men want Hobbies Ambition Sex Friendship Love Resources All of that can be provided by their male friends except for sex (most the time) Difference between the other factors, in part, is they can get a different type of love and friendship that with the homies

So sex and some emotional vibey stuff

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