From the very beginning, feminism has focused on shattering the so-called glass ceiling. That invisible barrier that keeps women from becoming CEOs, doctors, lawyers, President, and all those other exciting, rewarding, glamorous careers. Feminists looked at that content housewife from the 50s, taking care of her husband and children, and told her that she was oppressed. That if she was unshackled from her oppression, she could become President one day. Believing them, women joined the feminist movement in swarms. And after 50 years of amazing gains, they're unhappier than ever, and certainly unhappier than their housewife mothers.
What happened? Simple. Feminism's exhortations to be "independent" was a lie on two fronts: one, that being a housewife was oppression, and two, that if she wasn't she could become President. Let's examine both in detail.
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We all know the stereotype of the 50s woman: staying home, taking care of the kids, not having her own career, having dinner ready for her husband when he got home, and spending her free time watching soap operas and having tupperware parties with other housewives in the neighborhood. Feminism came up with the supposedly radical idea that women could work just as much as men. But here's the thing: that's not a radical idea. Indeed, throughout most of history, women (along with children), worked like dogs, just like the men. What was radical was the idea that a woman could stay at home and *not* work, without having the family starve as a result.
Before the industrial age, pretty much *everyone* worked from sunup to sundown, plowing the fields, tending cattle, or anything else, in order to grow enough food to feed their family, with very little left over for any sort of "luxuries" like shoes or meat. This included old people who would work until they keeled over (retirement wasn't really a thing), and kids as young as 2 or 3. Outside of a very small class of aristocrats, everyone else had to work fulltime just for the very basics of living.
With the industrial age, men and women still had to work, this time in dangerous factories, to keep their families solvent. The only people who got a pass were kids who now could wait until 7 or 8 before joining the factory, and old people, who were kicked off the assembly lines when they were too weak.
Indeed, for the vast, vast majority of human history, men and women worked their butts off (albeit often in different jobs) to keep their families afloat. As productivity improved, fewer people needed to work, but women were the last to be freed of this responsibility. First, child labor laws meant children could go to school and avoid working until 16-18. Next, social security and pensions allowed old people to spend at least a few of their final years in a reasonable retirement.
Finally, women were able to stay at home. And it was only for a few decades that productivity rose so high that something previously inconceivable could be possible: in an average family, a single wage could now support 6 people: 2 parents, a husband and wife, and 2 kids. Contrary to feminist thought, the novel idea was not that women could work, but that they could be afforded the privilege of staying home and caring for the family. And even that was not universal. Plenty of women (about 1/3rd) worked in the 50s/60s. Most of them were in lower and working class groups, where a single wage was still not enough to live on.
What's more, even the housework that was remaining had become so much easier: in the old days, cooking meant threshing the wheat, gathering the water from some distant stream, churning butter, and sitting over an open fire breathing smoke for hours in order to make some tasteless gruel. Similarly, washing clothes meant taking them to a river and pounding them on a rock for an hour. By the 50s, advances in cooking, laundry machines, etc. meant that actually tending house took so few hours of the day that they had to invent a new form of entertainment to occupy the rest of the hours. Thus soap operas and tupperware parties. Any woman who thought being a housewife in the 50s was tantamount to slavery while watching soap operas every afternoon has no idea what their own mothers and grandmothers had to go through just a few generations ago.
So this was the first lie that women were fed: rather than celebrate their newfound freedom, they were told that being "forced" to stay home was a sign of longstanding patriarchal oppression, and that progress was to throw that away and join men in the workforce. No one bothered telling them that that was exactly opposite: progress was allowing women to stay home (just like children and elderly were allowed out of the workforce in previous years), and joining the workforce was the actual historical oppression that most people tried to avoid if at all possible.
2.
The second lie was that if women would just leave their comfortable home lives, they would all have the type of glamorous careers that they dreamt about. Feminists never told them the truth about work, something that men have known forever (and women knew, until they stopped working and forgot): the vast majority of work is largely soul-sucking drudgery, not some empowering, glamorous work; being beholden to a boss or (worse) some faceless bureaucrat in a distant corporate HQ for your monthly paycheck, career development, and daily marching orders is hardly a picture of independence; and the only reason to submit to such torture is to put food on the table for your family, not to "actualize your innate awesomeness" or some other BS propaganda that bosses talk about.
Sure, maybe it's more fulfilling to be a doctor and save countless lives than it is to raise 2 well adjusted kids and have a happy home life. But how about being a secretary, answering angry phone calls all day? How about being a janitor, sweeping floors every night? Are they really more fulfilling than raising a family? I don't mean to disrespect secretaries and janitors. Their jobs are absolutely needed. But none of them are under any delusions about how "empowering" it is to deal with Karens asking to speak to the manager, or scrub the toilets after the cafeteria has its weekly Taco lunch. Most of them do it because they need the money, and then try to get meaning in their lives from everything else they do, whether it's raise a family, be a good friend, win the local bowling league's championship, etc. And there are far, far more secretaries and janitors than there are doctors (also, if you talk to most doctors, they'll tell you how disillusioned they are by the profession, which turns out to be just as soul-sucking and frustrating as most others; they have one of the highest suicide rates of any career and many of them long to leave the field as soon as they save up enough money).
Feminism tells a woman that the only thing keeping her from being a CEO, or doctor, or lawyer, or multi-million dollar jetsetting humanitarian crusader / fashion icon (or whatever BS dream job women think exists) is the Patriarchy. But that's not true. If it was, then every man should be one of those. It's not like the garbageman never had dreams of becoming an astronaut. But the truth is, even for the vast majority of men, such careers are out of reach and were probably never within their reach due to a combination of their innate intelligence, social support structures, economic factors, and sheer dumb luck. The same applies to women.
The only reason guys still sign up for those thankless jobs is because there is no alternative for us. There's no rich woman waiting to marry a poor unemployed guy to raise a family with and share a life together. But no guy is foolish enough to think that it's "liberating" to spend your days filling out TPS reports while being beholden to some pointy-haired boss who can fire you whenever the company's profits take a dip.
3.
There's a common belief among the Left that racism is what the Right uses to keep poor white people and poor black people from uniting under a common economic cause. By keeping them divided and thinking each other is the enemy, they can avoid action against their corporate and Wall St. donor class. If that's the case, then the Left has used feminism to do the same: keep poor (i.e the 99%) men and poor women from uniting under a common economic cause to take action against the Left's corporate and Wall St. donor class (largely the same as the Right's donor class). Feminism taught women to view men as the problem rather than The Man. And it achieves the same purpose as racism for the Right.
And they do it the same way: the racial strategy is to convince a white man the reason he's poor is because a black man took his job, and not the fact that thanks to lax labor laws and favorable trade agreements, the job actually went to an illiterate 12 year old in China, with the CEO keeping the profit. Similarly, feminism says what's keeping a woman from having financial security / happiness / fulfilment in her life is her husband "forcing" her to stay at home, and she should instead depend on the vagaries of Corporate America to provide her those benefits. Just like a racist says "I may be poor, but at least I'm not black" (meanwhile he has to play dancing monkey for his corporate masters to keep his paycheck), a feminist says "I may be unhappy but least I'm not dependent on a man" (meanwhile, being utterly dependent on her corporate masters for that "independence").
It's not a coincidence that wages in America began to stagnate in the 70s, just as women began to enter the labor force in larger numbers. Under the guise of feminism (and civil rights, see my note below), there was a huge new influx of available workers. Of course that will lower wages.
4.
Now, all of this would be fine, *if* it increased women's happiness. That is, if women were truly unhappy or oppressed at home, and found greater happiness or got closer to their life's goals, by working, then feminism would be fine. After all, no man is entitled to his job, and if a woman can outcompete him for it, then so be it. But women's happiness has gone down, because it was a lie: only a tiny, tiny majority of jobs actually deliver enough intrinsic worth, challenge, respect, etc. that they beat the fulfillment and satisfaction that comes from raising a family. That's true for both men and women, but only men knew this. Their hope was that, if they put their noses to the grinder and worked hard, they could provide for that family, and if they married the right woman, she would raise that family well, and that joint life's work would be something both could cherish for the rest of their lives. As long as that possibility was there, men would be willing to break their backs (literally, as they disproportionately take the most dangerous jobs) to get it.
The bargain offered to men in the 50s/60s was this: "yes, most likely your job will be boring / dangerous / etc, but in exchange, you will earn enough money to marry a good woman and raise a family with her. And in the end, that will bring you fulfillment, not the job." The bargain wasn't easy, but at least it was an honest offer. Feminism offered this bargain: "yes, your mother was happy staying at home and raising a family, but you can do better. Sign up with us, and your career will give you even more happiness and fulfillment than your mother had raising a family." Or, at the very least, they promised that you could have both an amazing career *and* the same family life that their mothers had.
Unfortunately, most women didn't read the fine print on that bargain, which read: "a) <1% of you will get those jobs, because they're exceedingly rare and hard to get into; b) by signing this deal, you sign away your chance at the happiness your mother had, because you will be so busy building and then sustaining your career you won't have time to build a family life". IOW, by signing up for this deal, women agreed that they were either going to be part of that 1% with great, satisfying careers, or be left without the safety net of at least having what their mothers had: financial stability (through a husband), a family, and a life partner who, for all his faults, was still better than being alone.
How many of us play the lottery with our life's savings? That's what feminism fooled women into doing, and they bought it. And now, the ones who gambled away their safety net chasing that tiny fraction of careers are looking around wondering why they're even worse off than their "oppressed" mothers.
But it gets worse: feminism altered men's bargain too. Because now, men simply can't find a good woman to raise a family with, and even if they do, rising divorce rates and biased family courts mean they might lose their children and spouse regardless. So all of a sudden, the bargain they signed up for doesn't hold either. As a result, lots of men are asking "why am I working so hard and risking my physical safety if I can't find a good wife and raise a family anyway?" And deciding to go for an easier job which provides just enough for them to live a single life and make peace with that.
In the end, neither men nor women are happy with the choices they're now offered. Even the married ones now have to work 2 jobs to provide the same standard of living that 1 job used to provide before. Interestingly however, Corporate America is tickled pink about having doubled labor availability (while paying for the same standard of living as before), neither one now having a safety net, making them even more reliant on their bosses.
NB:
FWIW, I believe the civil rights movement to end racial discrimination for jobs was different, because access to those jobs *did* make lives better for black people. If a black man couldn't get a job, neither could his black wife, which meant the whole family was condemned to poverty. So allowing him (or her) to get a job was a net increase in their happiness and financial stability. But white women already had financial stability and happiness: through their husbands. Feminism was just asking them to transfer that dependence from their husband to their boss (ironically, usually also a man), while telling them they were becoming "independent". While Corporate America no doubt benefited from the influx of labor when minorities were allowed to compete for jobs, at least it did provide a net increase in happiness for those minorities (of course, the real solution would be to grow the economy and provide more jobs for everyone). There is no reddit full of black people wishing they could go back to being sharecroppers. Like I said before, if feminism did the same thing for women, increase their net happiness, then I would accept it as well, but it didn't.
5.
tl;dr summary:
1) The glass ceiling, ie the barriers to having a glamorous, fulfilling career, exist for everyone -- men and women-- and have always existed, and *will* always exist, even if The Patriarchy is demolished, for the simple reason that those jobs have always been rare and ultra-competitive to get into. If you demolish one barrier, another one will come up, because there just aren't enough of those jobs to go around for everyone who wants one. For every company that employs 100,000 people, there is only one CEO. For our country of 300 million people, there is only one President. Break all the barriers you want, it won't make the constitution allow for 2 Presidents.
2) In contrast, the glass floor for women has been gradually raised higher, to where women in the 50s/60s could avoid work, have financial stability, raise a family, have a life partner, and still have time to watch soap operas (or pursue other avenues of personal fulfillment like volunteering, reading books, developing hobbies and interests, etc.).
3) Feminism offered women the chance to break the glass ceiling, in exchange for removing the glass floor that acted as their safety net.
4) Women, having been out of the workforce for a generation, forgot how crappy most jobs were, and how few and far between the glamorous careers actually were, and took that deal. They were aided by feminists telling them that the only thing standing in the way of them becoming President was the men in her life (her father, her husband) keeping her down, conveniently forgetting that 150 million men also will never become President, because the bigger obstacles are things like class and money: every President for the past 30 years has come from an Ivy League school; here's the list from 1988 until this year (counting re-elections): Yale, Yale, Yale, Yale, Yale, Harvard, Harvard, UPenn. Also, here are the law schools of all of the current 9 Supreme Court Justices (men and women): Harvard, Harvard, Harvard, Harvard, Yale, Yale, Yale, Yale, Notre Dame. Gee, looks like Patriarchy is the real problem, right?
5) After taking the bargain, women then dedicated their best years to "building a careeer" as feminism told them that handing over your 20s/30s to a faceless company or (worse) paying an immensely wealthy University to take those years from her, was more "empowering" than dedicating those years to a man who loved her and would in turn dedicate his life to her. Because, you know, that career would be far more fulfilling than anything that oppressive, patriarchal man would give her.
6) After a few decades, many (most) women realize that they could not, and will not, crack the glass ceiling (turns out it's made of bulletproof acrylic, designed by the ones above it to protect themselves from the ones below, both men and women), and that the jobs they managed to find provided less economic security, fulfillment, or happiness, than the glass floor they gave up.
7) Meanwhile, men have been damaged too, since, with fewer women interested in focusing on building a family and being a good life partner, they're wondering why they need to work so hard at those same jobs. So now, fewer men are available who are willing to provide what their fathers did for their wives.
8) Thusly, having crashed through the glass floor, forced to work a soul sucking job to put food on their table, beholden to a boss less interested in their welfare than the most uncaring husband ever was, the vast majority of women have actually regressed: less happy, less secure, less fulfilled, less independent. Yet rather than recognize the failed ideology that brought them to that unhappy place, they double down on their assumption that men are the source of their problems while simultaneously crying out for us to rescue them.
Funnily enough though, for a winning socialist movement, corporate profits are up...
just-a-meme-upvoter 2y ago
This was the best thing i ever saw on reddit, btw saw someone shaming you in a girls subreddit for this
Devilsgun 3y ago
While the 'empowered womyn' are busy fellating corporapists to get through the so-called 'glass ceiling' millions of us men are down below, looking up through the glass floor, and noticing a few things:
1) These roasties aren't really all that from this angle
2) They ALL have vaginas, and they're all pink inside, so the notion that any of them are 'special by default' because she has a semi-moist hole is destroyed. Cunt is a commodity, not a treasure.
3) They all think they're better than us, when in fact they're just dumb animals being placed in the upper hutches by the same .gov that will be "harvesting them" when they need the meat. More income = More "Meaty"
4) They can drop all the shit on us that they want, but it can't touch us for the most part unless we reach up and grab it.
5) Their degrees ain't shit.
6) We have the hammers down here, and ya know, this floor is made out of GLASS... Just sayin'...
Sainthoo1 3y ago
Agree on the sociology, it has been obvious for a couple decades. Women are unhappy, because as it turns out life is hard. Work is called “work” for a reason. The socialist and racist stuff, not so much.
ConsequenceThat6209 3y ago
I would support you as a fascist dictator.
sharonimacaroni6 3y ago
Both men and women are expected to have a job nowadays. I don’t think it’s “radical feminism” that has changed the traditional dynamic, i think it’s partly the economy and the fact that most households need two incomes to survive, at least in the states. Also, you say, “there’s no rich woman waiting to marry a poor unemployed guy”... where do I find a rich man to marry me and take care of me? Surely you don’t believe that’s a real possibility for most women.
Starguy2 3y ago
One thing you’ve forgotten is that not everyone is married/ has a partner to support them. Sure a family can do fine with just one working individual, but what about a single woman? If she is told from a young age she doesn’t need to work to have a good life as long as she gets married and finds herself unable to marry, then she’s going to have a horrible life. What about women who are trapped in abusive relationships because that’s the only way they could make stay alive?
Feminists don’t want to make the lives of women more difficult with work. They want them to gain financial independence so they can’t be trapped in horrible relationships or forced to marry for wealth.
ogrilla99 Mod 3y ago
But that's exactly the fallacy I'm talking about. Working for a living doesn't mean you're financially independent. It just means you're now dependent on your employer to keep from starving. So which is better, depending on your husband to keep you comfortable, or depending on your boss? Unless your independently wealthy you're not actually financially independent.
People in the past understood this. They knew that not having to work was a luxury and was the actual freedom. Yes, for some women, either those that are unable / don't want to get married, or are in truly abusive relationships, depending on a husband to provide for you is more onerous than depending on a boss. But that's not the vast majority of women. The vast majority of women, along with the vast majority of men, are not abusive to each other (not to say everyone is 100% happy in their relationships, but being bored, etc. is not the same as actually being abused). And the vast majority of women (and men) got married. Feminism is asking those large majorities of women to give up their comfort and security in order to benefit a few women who don't want to get married or are being abused. For 90% of women, that's a bad tradeoff because their boss has much less concern for their wellbeing than their husband.
Note, I'm not saying single people or abused people don't deserve our help. But divorce laws already allowed for divorce with cause; if your husband was abusive, or cheating, or whatever, you could get a divorce. But those reasons were rare. What caused the explosion in divorce was no-fault divorce. Similarly, plenty of women worked in the 60s. As my link shows, \~30% of women worked. So if you truly felt you'd rather be beholden to a boss for your financial security than to a husband, you were welcome to support yourself with a job. Plenty of women did it (they were called spinsters back then and weren't uncommon).
My point is that for the vast majority of American women of the 60s, who had the incredible privilege of not having to work, a privilege only a small minority of women in the history of the world have ever had, feminism sold them a lie: that they should trade in that security that came from a stable marriage in order to try their luck in the jobs lottery, knowing full well that only a few women (or men, for that matter), win that lottery and get into well paid, meaningful careers, while the rest of them lost out and found themselves working in soul-sucking, unstable jobs which gave them less "independence" and financial security that their husband did before.
Guys have always worked, so they've always understood that you can never be financially secure unless you have enough money to *not* work. Being a working stiff just means some corporation owns your ass and essentially holds your entire family hostage to make you come to work every day. A feminist, and/or a woman who didn't work for a few decades, forgets that maxim, and actually thinks that always being 30 days away from being fired from your job is somehow "financially independent".
TheTryItAll 3y ago
While some "angry feminists" might push for all women to work, "feminism" itself is just about women having as much right and choice to do what they want with their lives as men do. True feminism is about being able to work OR be a housewife. True feminism is about being single forever OR getting married if you want. It's about being a SAHM OR having a career. Feminism is not about forcing women to behave any way at all. It's about giving them choice to pick their own lifestyle. Not all women want careers. Not all women want families. Just like men...they have different opinions and personalities.
Your argument only works in a world where all feminism is "angry feminism".
I am a very traditional woman who loves the idea of having a family and being a SAHM...but I also love traveling, schooling, voting, working if I want to, marrying whom I choose...being able to read, right, drive, dress as I choose...
ogrilla99 Mod 3y ago
I respectfully disagree about what feminism, even non-"angry feminism" is about. We're not talking about the right to read, drive, dress as you choose, vote, travel, go to school, etc. Those were all rights won decades before feminists started advocating for women to leave the house and enter the workplace. To the extent that parts of feminism are still concerned with residual restrictions or problems in those spheres, I support it.
But I'm talking specifically about work. And here is where, IMHO, feminism sold women a massive lie that is taking its toll on their happiness, and also the happiness of the men that are or would have been in their lives. I.e., it's making all of us miserable :-)
No. Feminism is about being single (in your 20s/30s) AND getting married (in your 40s). It's about raising your kids as well as a SAHM AND having a career. The motto of feminism in the 70s/80s/90s was literally "You Can Have It All!" That somehow, you could be a high-powered executive and still have time to make your kids' lunches and read them bedtime stories. And the women who bought this myth ended up exhausted and unhappy about both their career track and the way they were raising their kids.
Even to the extent that feminism sometimes said "If you choose one over the other, that's okay too", they were not honest about those choices, because they omitted the consequences and chances and brutal reality of the workplace, in which the vast majority of people are not in their dream job, and even the ones that are, must focus 90% of their energy on those jobs just to keep them.
Feminism doesn't talk about that. For example, to the extent that, after several decades of producing unhappy, lonely women, they are forced to acknowledge that a woman who spends her youthful years developing her career has diminished marriage prospects, they blame it on the man.
If you choose to focus on your education until you have a PhD at 30, then spend another 10 years focusing on your career, that's fine. That's a valid choice. But at 40, your chances of landing the same quality husband are much smaller than when you were 25. This is not men's fault: we're not "intimidated" by successful women. We're not pedophile rapists for being attracted to 25 year olds. And we certainly have no obligation to rescue a woman from choices she willingly made. And yet feminism says nothing about that risk when talking about "choices".
If you want to be a SAHM, you need a husband who equally values the importance of having a wife stay at home and raise the kids. Plenty of them exist. But almost by definition, they value having a family, which means they are not interested in 40 year old women with diminished fertility and a busy career. That's literally the opposite of what a husband who wants a SAHM is looking for.
Feminism doesn't talk about these things. They don't say "sure from the outside, it looks like CEOs have glamorous lives, making big decisions in fancy corner offices and then jetsetting in a private jet to meet important clients. But also realize that those guys work 100 hours a week, and have since the moment they left college, they barely know their kids names, and are on their 3rd marriage because their company consumes every ounce of their physical and emotional energy. And those are the lucky ones who made it through that grind and beat out their equally smart and hardworking competition". Can you remember a feminist (or anyone) telling a woman that reality, before making her choose (at 18 or 22) whether she wants to go down that track?
What if I told you that your choice is to a) have strangers in a daycare center raise your kids while you're working a boring, dull, soul sucking job that you will hate or at least are bored stiff by (90% of jobs out there) or b) stay at home and raise kids that you will be proud of gifting to this world when they're grown up? Because that's the real choice. Most women, just like most men, will not end up CEOs, doctors, lawyers, astronauts, and billionaire entrepreneurs. That's a false mirage of the choices available. But most of them do have a good shot at raising a family. All of a sudden, the choices don't sound that great, do they? And yet, that would be the more accurate picture to paint.
Telling women "You can have all the advantages and benefits of a 50s era housewife, while also gaining the advantages of the top 10% of men (the ones with the type of jobs that women were sold were theirs for the taking), with no risk of ending up childless, alone, financially worse off, or less secure". That somehow, all you have to do is "choose" your life's path, as if it's an item on a menu, that it doesn't entail work, risk, and sacrifice of other goals you may have. That's the "choice" that feminism presents, and that's as much of a lie as any that the patriarchy might have told women. If it was that easy, why isn't every man a CEO / President / surgeon / billionaire playboy yacht owner? You think they're *choosing* to be unemployed, or working dangerous jobs, or homeless, or become so depressed as to commit suicide at rates 4x higher than women?
Where does feminism talk about the downsides of the choices they're presenting? Because there are a lot. That's not angry misogyny, it's the truth. If you don't believe me, all you have to do is look at the stats: women today have higher levels of unhappiness, fewer marriages, more children borne out of wedlock, and less financial security than they did in the 60s. Sure, 1 woman is now Vice President. Kamala Harris undoubtedly won the feminism lottery. But the 99% of the rest of the women who were enticed to play were just the marks who fattened the prize pool. Feminism gives them the same "choice" that a lottery gives an innumerate: gamble away your dollar for the chance to get a million, and please disregard the statistics that show you how stunningly poor the odds are on the choice I'm asking you to make.
TheTryItAll 3y ago
You are caught up in what you think will make a woman truly happy. All of the downsides you listed here and in your last comment are just as true for women as for men. Feminism - true feminism - isn't about being happy because you are a ceo. It isn't about being happy because you are single. It's about being able to make choices in your own life.
Feminism - true feminism - isn't about happiness. It's about freedom. And freedom almost never comes with a guarantee of happiness. It just comes with the guarantee of choice.
Some women don't WANT to be married. Some don't WANT to be CEOs. Some don't WANT to have kids, some don't WANT to be single moms. But every woman should be able to choose what she wants. We don't need or want a man to tell us what will make us happy. Let us decide for ourselves! We are fully grown, adult humans. If we WANT to choose a path that ultimately leads to a great, lonely career, instead of a happy family THATS OUR PREROGATIVE! No one tells men the MUST do things. People just accept that men do or do not WANT to. We have the same right!
My vagina does not preclude me from CHOICE.
ogrilla99 Mod 3y ago
"My vagina does not preclude me from CHOICE."
I fully agree. My beef with feminism is that it doesn't present that choice accurately. Which is misleading women in their pursuit of the best choices for their life.
"if we WANT to choose a path that ultimately leads to a great, lonely career, instead of a happy family THATS OUR PREROGATIVE!"
Yes. But did feminism present the choices that way? That some great careers will lead to lonely lives? I'd have no problem if that's how the choices were presented, and then women chose based on that more accurate information. But that's not what was presented. What was presented was that that great career can be had without sacrificing a happy family. That you could have your cake and eat it too.
This forum exists solely because there are lots of women (not all of course) who are now regretting the tradeoffs they are now being forced to make, such as having a great career but ending up alone and without a family; no one ever told them back when they were making these choices what the tradeoff would be. Instead, they were told "You can have it all!" and to go ahead and pursue that career, and that a family and everything else would be waiting for them if/when they wanted it 20 years later. That was a lie.
My concern is not for the women who are currently happy. They don't need my concern if they're happy :-) For them, feminism worked out: it broke the glass ceiling and allowed them to pursue careers they otherwise would have difficulty entering. They don't care that it also broke the glass floor that traditionally guaranteed a woman at least some stability in her life, because they ended up not needing that floor.
But there are tons of posts highlighted in r/WhereAreAllTheGoodMen of women who succeeded in their careers who are flabbergasted that the husband / children / family life they expected to also get is no longer there. They start their posts with "I don't get it. I'm a successful, attractive woman, and I can't find a man!". Why would they expect that if feminism told them their career path, should they choose it, would also lead to a lonely life? And at that point in their life, you can't turn back the clock and make different choices.
And even at that point, when a woman is unhappy that things didn't turn out the way she was led to believe they would, even then, feminism doesn't tell her the truth, that the choices she made led to the consequences she now faces. Instead, they blame men, saying that the real problem is that men don't "man up" and give these women what they want (marriage, family, whatever).
I have no problem giving people, men and women both, choices. After all, I support legalizing most drugs :-) But telling someone they have the choice to smoke weed, or snort cocaine, without also informing them of the health risks of doing so, is irresponsible. And that's exactly what feminism has done WRT careers and work. And if/when that cocaine sniffer is unhappy with the life of addiction he now leads (not saying all cocaine users end up addicts, or that all addicts are unhappy), telling them that the problem isn't that their initial choice of snorting cocaine carried a high risk of ending up an addict, but that the "real" problem is that society hasn't figured out how to make cocaine less addictive, is doubling down on that irresponsibility.
"No one tells men the MUST do things."
They sure do. All the time. They say "if you want to eat, you MUST get a job". The option of finding a wife and becoming a stay at home dad doesn't exist for the vast, vast majority of men. And we don't cry about it and point the blame at all those meanie women who refuse to support a man. We say it is what it is, and you have no choice if you don't want to starve.
My point is, most advice to men is not about choices, it's about responsibilities and consequences. It's easy to talk about choices. Everyone wants choices. It's harder to have a discussion about responsibilities. Even red pill, that supposedly misogynistic, immature, "dangerous" philosophy, focuses mainly on what men must do to attract a woman. It doesn't tell men "sure, if you want, go ahead and eat cheetos and play video games all day! You don't have to assume the traditional provider role. You have the choice to be a bum and a great woman will still be around when you're ready to get married! You Can Have It All(tm)!"
Heck, even the AWALT principle (all woman are like that) is basically an admission that we can't change women. We can only change ourselves. We don't have the choice of doing what we want to do, and then expecting a woman to be with us regardless, and then blaming women when we're unhappy.
Any philosophy that talks about choices without spending equal if not more time talking about the consequences and responsibilities of those choices is irresponsible and dangerous. Doing so just leads to people having more ways to screw up their lives.
Starguy2 3y ago
You bring up a good point. For most women, this was probably not a large problem. Thanks for the well thought-out response! : )
Rook_Cross 3y ago
I'll never understand how a man can recognize sex differences but not racial differences. How feminism has helped catapult us to destruction, but not "diversity". Then use faulty logic, faulty understanding of economics and individual rights, see the current social situation and still try to make positives negative and vice versa. Some of what you say is true, a lot isn't. Both problems have their core in the same thing, Marxism. If you stick to what you're saying about Feminism and not try to incorrectly conflate it with the race stuff, then you're mostly ok, mostly.
houseoftolstoy Mod 3y ago
Nicely written. Quite the long read there, but that is not a problem. It is often unavoidable when discussing a topic in depth.
Unless you are wealthy enough to never have to work (either by investing enough time in your life to build wealth or having inherited it), you are going to have to deal with some level of struggle when it comes to survival (inheritance also does not guarantee sustaining wealth as many people who simply inherited their wealth will find it soon gone due to having no understanding of how to properly manage it). In first world countries in more recent times, this struggle and toil has become far less for many people than it was for most of history. Getting food for the typical first world citizen has never been easier, as most people no longer need to grow their own food just to have enough calories to sustain themselves. We now have convenience that our ancestors could not possibly imagine.
This is not to say that no one works hard or has to struggle, but the nature of that struggle has drastically changed for those in wealthier countries, even for those who would not be considered wealthy. The fact that this convenience now exists opens the door to the problems you touch up on. Rather than be grateful that we have more convenience in our lives, we still as humans compare ourselves to others in our immediate vicinity. Most people are not able compare themselves to how people just like them in the past lived, they have no perceivable reference to that life. Rather, they compare themselves to others, especially those who they perceive to be in a better position, and become resentful.
This same principle that applies to class also applies to sex, where women who buy into the Patriarchy keep them down get resentful at the idea that they are missing out on being among the high status men. As you pointed out, there are few of these men and far more men who are much lower in status. This of course does not stop the resentment, as they are only focused on the top status men. Ironically, they still categorize their anger at "all men." When women enter in this competition for these high status roles, those that buy into the Patriarchy being all powerful start to perceive any struggle or obstacle in their way as a result of sexism, not realizing that these struggles and obstacles are universal. The idea that there are less female CEOs than male CEOs can never be accepted as a result of merit, because that does not conform to the sexism theory that has been engrained in their minds.
In the event of societal collapse, we will see far less complaints of sexism and Patriarchy, as those are luxuries of richer societies. We may see that become a reality far sooner than we might think.
Lameador 3y ago
Interestting libertarian talk and point of vue.
A lot of libertarian bullshit, but a consistent point of vue.
EvenJesusHChrist 3y ago
Beautiful work! Bravo!
BetterHimThanMe 3y ago
Yet rather than recognize the failed ideology that brought them to that unhappy place, they double down on their assumption that men are the source of their problems while simultaneously crying out for us to rescue them.
Nailed it.
[deleted] 3y ago
Apex fallacy
Unshack 3y ago
The glass floor now, is quotas.
MrNeurotypical 3y ago
I'm going to drop a raincheck here because I'm knee deep in the muck of this in my current reading. I will mention that the same woman who authored the Manipulated Man wrote more books and I'm reading #2 and she hits on a lot of what you're saying. As far as I can muster, she's making the correct argument that becoming equal to men means being on the same level as them intellectually as opposed to becoming fully equal like having beards and working construction. She points out the necessity of opposites and how those play out to make people happy. She was a radical departure in feminism in the 70's and to this day is relegated to the misguided mysogynistic "victim" of the patriarchy. I have to do a big write-up but I look forward to exploring this more in depth and thank you for getting the ball rolling.
mistralol 3y ago
Really good read! thanks for that!
BadSpanglish2 3y ago
Good read - but i think current divorce laws and disproportionate spaces in shelters means a woman (in the west), will never truly hit rock bottom.
dachengchuan 3y ago
BRAVO !!!
BluepillProfessor 3y ago
That's because leftists are all the same. Whether race hustlers, or women demanding free abortions it is the same ideology. The theory is Marxism and the goal.is.destruction of society and all.those social institutions that let us create society like family, and commerce, trade, and corporations.
I am writing a book on this right now- Wolrd History From Civilization to Biden- that traces the development of civilization alongside the Marxist reverse engineering theories introduced in society to destroy it. Not "deconstruct.". Not " fundamentally change." The word is DESTROY!!!!
Feminists, BLM Bernie Bros, Pelosi, never trumpeted all parrot the dame cause, the destruction of civilization.
They never want to talk about the society they are trying to create To replace it but I will. The best model is the Khmer rouge Cambodian genocide. The next best model is the Chinese cultural Revolution. They WILL not stop even when the skulls are stacked 200 feet tall until a stronger force slaps their woke faces and tells them to stop.
So long as we silently go along instead of attacking and screaming at them they will keep.going, burning, looting, stealing jobs, and attacking the producers.
jhunkubir_hazra 3y ago
Socialists are all idealists who have forgotten that nature is a bitch. And the nature of life is competition, and assholery is an excellent stimulant for competition.
Sure, the industry will be controlled by the person whom they have elected. But they have forgotten that how power corrupts a person. Or that a person can be an asshole who just doesn't show his assholery and lets it simmer.
To be fair, everyone is an asshole. Everyone is greedy, envious, wrathful....but that what drives society forward. If we are not jealous of other people, how will we aim to improve ourselves in order to be a jerk? Being nice and happy won't motivate you to gamble your time, money, energy, in order to become more comfortable than the other person. Conversely, if you are at the top, then you must do something to protect your empire from others. You have to oppress them. And nature, or life, or society, runs on cut-throat competition.
Nature is inherently capitalist, with just a microscopic dab of "equality", etc. here and there.
Socialism is good, when it is used to just enhance the quality of life. Socialism, or Communism, cannot stand on its own. It will inevitably produce dictators.
What Socialism practically does, is to take powers from middlemen and give it directly to the ruler of the country. Not President. Ruler. Theoretically, it should be more efficient. But we all know that power corrupts. And middlemen would eventually be reestablished.
Capitalism, the practical problem is that too many middlemen, too much bureaucracy. But it is good to keep in check the powers of the person who governs the country. There should be an optimum number of bureaucrats, or middlemen.
Let me illustrate this with a small example:
If there are too many number of retailers, they would need the prices to go up due to their need to support themselves, because the number of persons per retailer would decrease. Nature's way would be simply to let the retailers starve and die to reduce the number of retailers. Survival of the fittest, guys. And it should be sustainable.And the Socialist's way would be to gradually reduce the number of retailers, by slowly giving away the authority to sell to only one person. Now, unemployment would be a huge factor here, but I'm ignoring it. I am simply assuming it that the state would take them as forced labour. The problem is, that it creates a monopoly. The person in charge of selling the products to people would regulate all the prices. If the people protest, then he would just stop supplying, and they would have no choice but to buy.
drunk-on-juice 3y ago
Well written and interesting post. Do you have any book recommendation that discusses the main points highlighted by your post?
MrNeurotypical 3y ago
Esther Vilar (a feminist, ironically) has 3 books: Manipulated Man, Polygamous Sex, and the third was never translated to English. I'm going through #2 right now. Very good content. She was labeled a mysogynist (fucking really?) and anti-feminist by the denialists. In a review of her 2nd book a commenter(probably German speaker) mentioned the third book gives a kind of resolution. There are some lively debates on youtube between her and prominent feminazis.
nadgobuyoo 3y ago
Amazing read. Thus it brings the question: In what direction are we going now? I don't think we will ever go back to the way 60s were, so we will just continue to fight this invisible enemy (Patriarchy) until when? Until the word "family" becomes synonym with "evil" I think.
CorndogFiddlesticks 3y ago
The family and society is being systematically attacked, and that's only going to continue until there is something that stops it.
Expect every societal "norm" to be attacked.
rorrr 3y ago
With the increasing automation 99% of us will be out of jobs. We will all sit on UBI, which we will spend on basic food, housing, services.
People who say we will invent new jobs (which can't be automated somehow) or that we will all learn computer programming and robotics are just delusional.
Overkillengine 3y ago
If the class that controls the AI and resources no longer has need of those that do not.....don't bet your life on them paying for UBI. Far safer bet to expect gross abuses of power by the Inner Party just like any nation in history dumb enough to go full communist. Except worse because AI good enough to replace workers in a full automation scenario is also good enough to replace soldiers.
scruffyshoulders 3y ago
Hobbies and small local niche manufacturing shops will rise up. Hell, this is already happening. Check out any hobby men partake in and check the advances in modding and customizing these products. Just about anyone can mill custom components anymore, and this trend will only grow.
I think we'll move back to a goods-based barter/trading system backed by crypto and cash where those filling market holes will earn a comfortable sum on top of their UBI.
PublicObamos 3y ago
Lol, this is me, yup accurate asf
[deleted] 3y ago
I wouldn't be too worried about automation just yet. Robotics still has a long way to go and realistically, if we really wanted to cut the work force in half, we could do it overnight without introducing a single robot. Most white collar jobs do not have a reason for existing beyond keeping people busy and micromanaging them to death. We're also hitting environmental limits where introducing more robots has too much impact on the environment, unless we mitigate it by killing people off.
BluepillProfessor 3y ago
Don't worry, killing people off is exactly the plan.
They want to reduce world population to about 600 million. That leaves 100 million elites each served by 5 slaves drawn from the proletarian class.
This is the society they want to create. Think "Altered Carbon"
They intend to reduce world population so it is "sustainable" and the fewer proles are easier to control.
I am not joking or exaggerating. This is what they say they want to do! They openly and gleefully write about elites living in gated communities and the rest of us living on the street. Then an elite slave can go out and collect more workers anytime for his master.
[deleted] 3y ago
[deleted]
BluepillProfessor 3y ago
They write about abortion and depressing the birth rate which is working very well. It even brings us back to the central point of this Reddit! However, in practice they usually accomplish it by starvation.
mistralol 3y ago
Its not.... Its really starting to come in full force now.... It will take 20 years but it will create an incremental destruction of jobs
[deleted] 3y ago
I work in the field and can confidently say, if there is anything that will speed up the adoption of robotics, automation and AI, it won't be their improvements that are the driver. Human processes are unnecessarily complicated to the point almost all AI in the next 20 years will trip up and require a human supervisor. Meanwhile, the quality of the average software dev is poor, even FAANG, slowing down innovation to a crawl.
What will drive the adoption, is admittance that our systems are bloated in ways that allow for bullshit jobs. HR is a field ripe for automation, overnight. Managerial positions are ready to be sliced in half in favor of autonomous workflows which require way less overhead. Justice & Law are immensely complicated for what is in essence a combination of fuzzy logic and logic trees. Bureaucracy speaks for itself.
mistralol 3y ago
I also work in the field for about 20 years. I can quite safly say I have put probably 50,000+ out of jobs as a single indivudual over thoose years.
A slightly different view point that you may not have considered is that when you partially automate things. You remove a bunch of jobs directly. However there is often a 2nd effect whic is it also increases the skll bar to the job entryies. Like take partially automated farming now. 40 years ago you would get work if you could drive a tractor. Now you need a slightly smaller number of people. but they also need to be able to drive and work a relativly complex computer system in the cab.
the big problem we are actually facing. Which as you know because you work in an advanced field you probably have a shortage of people who can do the work to a really hgh level? eg a skill gap at the bottom end the oppostie is happening. This is why bottom end labour isn't paid anything any more.
Oh yeah. there so much happening in companies now thats just pure bloat. One of the big things I think I am about to see around where I am is most of the middle managment is going to disappear because of convid restrictions cause all the dev's are working from home and there isn't anyone in the office to actually manage and most of the dev teams becuase of agile are managing themselves.
The HR stuff is becoming a joke. One of the things I am also seeing happenin that area mostly because their job is automatic now is that the HR folks are inventing new things and adding them on the role. you know like all the modern culture bullshit they are pushing down peoples throats really hard? The shit that nobody likes.... Its actually doing more harm than good in work places.
[deleted] 3y ago
I do not oppose your point. Rather, if over the span of the last 50 years, people like us have been putting others out of a job, yet unemployment still hasn't risen sky high, that begs the question where all these people that lost their job went to, especially given the working population was still increasing at that time. Increase of service-oriented jobs, STEM and others can only account for so much (not to mention many people end up a net negative over the span of years without anyone knowing it, the high level-low level gap as you put it). Last time I checked, no one back in the 90s was thinking "geez, I wish we had more managers!", but management layers have increased, manager:subordinate ratios have decreased, bureaucratic processes are even more satanic than before, etc.
Begs the question how many tricks bureaucracy still has up its sleeve to make jobs magically appear before automation outpaces the rate they can create bullshit, or they raise their hands and go "well you're all fucked and we're not gonna do shit".
Silver lining with regards to the sub: at least it is likely to hit western women far harder than western men.
mistralol 3y ago
yeah thats mostly because things have been scaling up. But it has been making the cost of labour cheaper. Which results in being able to employee more people. Like if you half your cost double the labour effectivly for the same cost.
Yup managment layers have definatly increased. I think a lot of that is to do with the job complxity has also increased. We have crap tons more safty regulations on products for example. Especially in the EU (I am UK btw). Like if you gave an engineer the EU regulation for a kettle and they had never seen a kettle. You would get a kettle.
| Begs the question how many tricks bureaucracy still has up its sleeve to make jobs magically appear
Yeah I have no idea. But I have certinally seen some people doing some jobs that they really don't actually do anything at all.
| Silver lining with regards to the sub: at least it is likely to hit western women far harder than western men.
Yes definatly. I would say the best jobs for people who are not going into high end skills would be to head down the really hard to automate skill jobs. Like mechanics, plumbers, spark, network engineers and things which are damm awkward jobs. Or some form of personal stuff eg health care.
After all in the long run.... All these robots coming are going to need serviced and repaired.
I saw incrementally of course from my point of view. Like these automates restraunts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXdvY0vs1b8
I think a lot of where I have said automated. Might be more clear if you also consider it augmented. Like the automated food cookers for flipping burgers. where the computer system just needs loaded / unloaded. but the actual prodactivity can be done at 10x the scale... with less human labour
kyledontcare 3y ago
The numbers aren't honest.
Gordiflu 3y ago
Very interesting. One minor objection. Until the industrial revolution, mankind actually worked way way less. It all changed less. Exploring the synergies between feminism and may be interesting.
ogrilla99 Mod 3y ago
Yeah, I'm aware of the work that shows that peasants in England actually had a better life than factory workers. Englad had to impose draconian laws like the enclosure acts to basically force peasants to give up their better lives on the farm and into the polluted cities and dangerous factories that needed cheap labor.
I figured I didn't want to take too much of a tangent into English labor analyses in this post :-) Regardless though, my main point was that in those days, easy or difficult, men and women worked pretty equally to keep their family secure.
moorekom Mod 3y ago
While men and women did work (roughly) equally hard, the kind of work they did was not the same. Don't forget that the motto of feminism was to become the man (that women desired). The line of thinking for most women was that if they could improve their station in life, thanks to feminism, they will be able to obtain men of higher status and caliber than they otherwise could (thus satisfying their hypergamy). Dalrock made an excellent observation: Feminism is the assertion that men are evil and naturally want to harm women, followed by pleas to men to solve all of women’s problems. Look at this from the context I've provided above and it would make more sense. What these women failed to foresee was that in the process of "becoming better", they lost the most valuable thing they could hope to entice a man with: femininity.
Gordiflu 3y ago
Understood and agreed. Sorry about the mess in the last sentences in my initial post. My tablet is acting lately and some words are missing, but you got my point anyway.
GN19 3y ago
That’s a great piece. Thank you. Shared with everyone I know that cares about this kind of thing
Dls95405 3y ago
Incredible piece of work, thank you. If you're not a published author, you should be.
whyserenity 3y ago
I totally disagree with one major point. Men always had a shitty deal. Nothing has changed for men. Being single and alone has always been the only good choice for a man and always will be.
Miserable-Lemon 3y ago
like everything about feminism, the glass ceiling was their own made up goal with moving posts
silly_birb 3y ago
They forgot that the CEOs are the children of the previous CEOs, not the average random person
CommanderBlurf 3y ago
We've returned to feudalism, while us serfs bicker over the scraps our liege lords deign to toss us.
silly_birb 3y ago
feudalism never ended It's just that women look too many hollywood movies where the ghetto girl climbs to be the CEO. It never happened and never will.
High status people marry between their social circle. Sure the hot rich guy may bang the bartender but he will marry a rich hot woman because his son needs more resources and status to be the next heir of the kingdom.