A Redditor who goes by the username u/onthegoodyearblimp came to WAATGM to ask us a question. Since it violates the posting rules it was removed, but the question is worth answering for the sake of people who visit without understanding what we do here, as well as for more seasoned people. After hearing from the other mods I'm going to bring the discussion here, and hopefully OP can get a variety of answers.
Do not harass the OP, as this has all the appearances of being a legitimate attempt at understanding.
I will post the question and then my response to it.
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OP's question:
I've been following this sub and I agree with just about all of it, but I have an honest question.
So women are attracted to bad boys and if only they could choose "nice guys" both women and men would be happier overall in the long run.
But couldn't the same be said that if men could just get over their attraction to young, thin, pretty women and choose faithful and loving homemakers, who happen to be less physically attractive, we'd also all be happier, too?
It just seems like a double standard, blaming women for not overcoming their sexual preferences and not blaming men for not overcoming their own sexual preferences.
Am I wrong?
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My response:
A lot of women gravitate toward "bad boys" because it is in their nature to do so. Civilization is the result of a group of people's decision to put long-term collective benefits over short-term individual pleasures, though. Since demography is destiny it is a very foolish thing to allow flighty and impressionable young women to be the sole arbiters of it. They need guidance - lots of guidance - and just as young men have always had their options constrained and their duties made clear (far more than women ever have, by the way), a society that permits young women to run wild doesn't have much of a future.
But I'll answer your question for educational purposes, and I'll start by saying that your premise is flawed. It's flawed because you think that thin, attractive women are the female equivalents of "bad boys." They're not. The female equivalent of a "bad boy" is a "bad girl," and she make be thin or fat, pretty or plain, rich or poor. What she is not, though, is virtuous. What she is also not is genuinely feminine. A THOT can fake femininity with make-up and clothing that emphasizes the feminine appearance of her face and body, but inside - where it really matters - she's strangling her femininity.
Both men and women are visual creatures, and a good fake (especially in conjunction with raging hormones), can fool a guy into thinking that a "bad girl" is something she is not. I suppose you could make the case that "bad boys" have a similar effect on impressionable young women, but the women bear the greater responsibility since women are the gatekeepers of sex and, by extension, the demography of their family/tribe/nation/civilization. That's why every civilization worthy of the name constrained the sexual license of young women more than that of men. It's not that man-whores have been universally lauded (in the Old Testament of the Bible they could be stoned to death), but rather an acknowledgement that she who possesses the ability to bring life has a unique ability to either push civilization forward or send it back.
Men have their own burdens to bear and constraints that go with them. We have to work and provide and sacrifice for women and children... including at the cost of our own lives. If men get a bit less stigma for tom-catting around, remember that women get no stigma for not marching to the front lines when an enemy approaches.
That said, there's a place where the decisions of men are criticized. That place is called EARTH, and this (WAATGM) is one of the very few places where we say, "Not here." Nobody here thinks that all women are bad/whores/selfish or that all men are good/virtuous/selfless, but WAATGM isn't the place for those discussions. Every other place does that. It's not even that we don't do that ourselves: it's that we don't do that here.
TheApricotCavalier 3y ago
The difference is they leave victims. Women are attracted to people who hurt other people; I hope they all burn in hell together
ogrilla99 Mod 3y ago
IMHO, there are multiple reasons why men and women are different in this regard:
Firstly, men are honest and very upfront about what they're looking for in a woman. If a guy wants a young, thin woman, he'll say that. And then a woman will know whether she's a good fit or whether she should move on and find someone else.
Part of the whole nice guy rage is because women *say* they want a nice guy, but end up choosing a bad boy. If a woman just said, "you bore me, and your traits are not attractive to me. I'm looking for an outlaw biker ex-convict with easy access to cocaine" then even the most smitten nice guy will shrug his shoulders and move on. Instead, women say "you're perfect! I wish I could find someone just like you! [Except, not you, exactly] My boyfriend is a total jerk and I hate him and wish I could leave him for a guy like you [but I still fuck him every night]"
Whenever someone posts a profile of a woman asking WAATGM, most of the responses are analyzing how she's lying. That even as she outwardly asks WAATGM, what's really going on is that she's still looking for a bad boy, hasn't gotten over her attraction to them, and, if she were to actually snag a "good man", would treat him with utter disrespect and disdain, making both their lives miserable.
You'll notice that the mods don't even allow profiles of women who simply say "I'm looking for a hung ex-con bad boy to fuck" because if they're not looking for a good man, then they're merely exercising their right to date whomever they want, and we have no problem with that.
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Secondly, you're also assuming that guys wanting thin, young women is as harmful as women wanting bad boys. As the original mod mentioned, the female equivalent of a bad boy is a bad girl. Some of them happen to be young and thin, but plenty are not and that's not their defining characteristic. Either way, neither are compatible with a stable, long-term relationship and guys who try to enter a LTR with a bad girl are warned just as much as girls who try to have relationships with bad boys. Simple phrases like "you can't turn a ho into a housewife" or "don't stick your dick in crazy" might sound crude, but they encapsulate a truth we tell guys all the time: even if the sex is great and these chicks turn you on, run away because no good ever comes of it.
If we agree that as a society, it's beneficial for men and women to enter into stable relationships that allow for long-term happiness, lifelong support for each other, and a good environment to raise children, then women dating a string of bad boys, each one leaving them more damaged than the last, until they're no longer able to have a relationship with a good man, is tremendously damaging to society.
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Third, just because guys want a pretty young thing doesn't mean all of them get one. Most settle for something less than that. The relationship equivalent of a young, thin, pretty woman is a handsome, tall, rich guy. IOW, an alpha. That guy may be a player (just like hot young women who ride the CC), but there are also plenty of them who are happily married, i.e. an alpha bux. They do exist, and every woman out there wants one. But they're rare and so not every woman gets one. Same with young, thin, pretty women. Browsing this forum, you might think we're saying that every 40 year old dude is banging 20 year old hot chicks. That's not true. We're saying, *if* you focus on yourself, improving yourself, whether it's your appearance, your career, your financial wellbeing, personality, etc. *then* you can be that guy. But plenty of guys don't do all of that, and end up having tremendous difficulty finding *any* woman to date them, let alone a young pretty one. The incel phenomenon is real. Lots of good guys (i.e. guys who may not be all that sexy, but are otherwise good, decent guys interested in a real relationship) can't get a date and would be happy with interest from any woman. This is part of women's apex fallacy: they only *see* the top 20% of guys, and assume that because the guys that they're chasing (i.e. the top 20%), are all chasing young, pretty, thin women, that every guy must be doing the same. Not true.
The difference here is that when some undesireable guy, let's say a fat neckbeard playing video games in his Mom's basement (to use a common stereotype that women love to make fun of) writes some post wondering where are all the hot young things, and that he won't settle for anything less than a Victoria's Secret model because "he knows his worth", everyone ridicules him. Meanwhile, if a fat, old, single mother says she wants a 6ft tall, 6-figure salary, 6-pack abs kinda guy, everyone outside of this forum tells her "you go gurrl! You deserve nothing less! If you don't get one, it's men's fault for not manning up and dating a queen like you!"
If a woman wants that 6/6/6 alpha bucks, feel free to go after him. Just recognize that that person has lots of options and you better bring a ton of positive qualities to the table if you want a chance. Just don't shame that man if he doesn't find you equally desirable and decides to pursue someone else.
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The bottomline is this: bad boys don't make for good LTRs. Young, thin, pretty women sometimes can. Either way, feel free to pursue whomever floats your boat. Just be ready to face the consequences of your choices, i.e. if you're a woman who eschews good men and chases bad boys, be ready to accept that you will likely have your heart (and sometimes a few ribs or an arm) broken and will end up dropping quickly in relationship value in the eyes of "good men", such that if/when you ever decide to pursue an actual good man, they most likely won't want anything to do with you anymore. And that's not their fault. They have the right to choose whomever they want too.
And to guys chasing young, thin, pretty women, we say stay away from the crazy ones because as hot as they might be, it's not worth it. And if you're going after a good women (regardless of her age, appearance, or BMI score :-), be ready to bring a lot to the table because she will (rightly) expect you to match her in relationship value.
You can switch the genders and the advice is the same. Good women (i.e. someone who truly wants a lifelong marriage and family with a real life partner) generally don't marry players and manwhores, so if you become one, you'll have a tough time attracting one. And conversely, if you're a woman chasing an actual good man, be desirable yourself.
I don't really think those are contradictory or hypocritical pieces of advice, do you?
The_Mole_Dizzle 3y ago
this is implying that there are women who are less attractive and also homemakers to pick from
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most women in the current age have zero homemaking skills, and want someone leagues above their smv
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this is the age old why won't chad settle for me he only goes for pretty girls while ignoring the reality of the options for the majority of men
Typo-MAGAshiv Mod 3y ago
I love your response, lurker. If I might tack on:
I know men who attempted to do just that. These guys could have gotten 8s or 9s on SMV, but instead went with 7s, 6s, and even 5s on SMV whom they perceived to be 9s or 10s on RMV/MMV.
Like many women, they were talented chameleons. Like many women, once the vows were exchanged and the paperwork finished, they became downright awful. Most were gradual, but some it really was as soon as they got home from the honeymoon.
Women's worst behavior isn't just enabled, but downright encouraged.
moorekom Mod 3y ago
One of the things most guys misunderstand is the nature of average women, their viability and their perceived affordability for a marriage (or a relationship). Women are women. If you want to go for an average girl because you think she will be affordable and she will stay on the right and narrow path, you will be up for one rude awakening. What you need is an unshakable frame and a firm pimp hand. If you have that, you might as well go for the hot ones. They are all the same and there is a chance that the hot ones are less damaged since they don't get approached as often.
ZealousMaths 3y ago
I saw it moreso as once she has diamond, diamond is no longer good enough if she feels she get get platinum. The game ascends on itself over and over. Not to mention no man in my belief has an idea what an ideal women would look like and could be judged for to filter from chameleons...
clownfiddler 3y ago
I think one of the biggest issues with the women posted on here is their attitude more than anything else. Almost every one of these women is looking for a man with the “what are you going to do for me” mindset. It’s very clear that they are not willing to offer much to a relationship. Women need to put work into relationships as well.
I consider myself a very average looking girl. While I’ve put a lot of work into bettering my appearance, up until a couple years ago, I was quite heavy. My husband is also objectively considered a chad. I married my husband at 18 (I know), but we are still together after 12 years of being in a relationship. I do firmly believe we have been able to stay together because of our friendship and empathy. Relationships are going to be incredibly hard sometimes. Both parties need to learn to take a step back and see the other person’s side. Take responsibility for your actions. Not everything is your partner’s fault.
Unfortunately, it seems most women expect men to do all the hard work. I see it all the time with my friends. You need to be your own person outside of the relationship. Most importantly, allow your partner to be their own as well. Men’s only purpose in a relationship is not to serve their partner. They need to be allowed to be the weak ones sometimes.
If you’re lucky, you may find that person that you truly click with. I believe that most people will be attracted to someone’s personality even if they are not objectively physically attractive.
I try so hard to tell my single girlfriends to find who they truly are first. I also believe that they need to throw out their damn checklists. A lot of women don’t seem to view men as people anymore. It’s quite sad.
disayle32 3y ago
You took an even bigger risk than usual getting married at 18. Couples who tie the knot at that age have a higher divorce rate than the already high average. But if you manage to buck that trend, good on you. Is there a prenup in place?
moorekom Mod 3y ago
Early marriages break because women know they can get married again soon. Late marriages stick together because they settled because of the lack of options. Her marriage might last because she considers her husband a catch.
CalicoJack703 3y ago
I've always been under the assumption that it's not so much the age when married but number of previous marriages/partners. I'd be willing to bet that clownfiddler has had 0 previous marriages and can count all her bedmates on one hand, or even half a hand.
She can rationalize why her marriage works however she wants, because I'm just a guy making pixels on the internet. But, her marriage has worked because her pair bonding is intact and it sounds like her parents(who were likely married throughout her childhood) raised her right
[deleted] 3y ago
We were and did for thousands of years. Maybe you confused patriarchy with all men getting endless supplies of perfect 10s?
If a man gets married today (he runs a, what is it now 50 % chance?) of divorce and loss of quality of life and access to his own offspring. That's like Russian Roulette with a double-barrelled shot gun. Guess which barrel is loaded? Trick question, they both are. One for each of your balls!
The marriage crisis has no correlation with his preference for young, thin, pretty women. A lot of the time the bitch has gotten fat and old and only then wants to divorce him. The solutions to this uniquely male dilemma (thus is not an issue for society, just man the fuck up, get to work and pay) that are prevailing are to go MGTOW or become a player.
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Players are not know for building civilizations. There is no great Casanova Empire. His only goal is to jizz. That is not lofty and most men tire of that goal after a few jizzes.
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The MGTOWs on the other hand will start finding each other and will eventually have to rebuild society when it implodes. How dare I say it will implode? Simple, marriage is the glue that holds families together. Families are the basis of civilization, not twitter. Single mothers, fuck bois and checked out men can't maintain society. Society requires dedicated hard-working men. Family provides impetus for men to work hard. Why should I wake up at 5 am every god damn day, when I can sleep till noon? Family, not bitches or riches. But Some super rich dude did all that and has no harem or children. Yeah, and how much money can he amass when there are no policemen, garbage collectors and soldiers? The answer might shock you! Nill!
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Fuck bitches and their need for riches created by my labour when all they gon do is #metoo when I say good morning. Bitch is gon try n fuck my colleague cause she ain't haaapy. Bitch if you gon be unhaaapy, be unhaaapy on your own dime, you don't need a ring on your finger to be unhaaapy. I can find younger and hotter less unhaaapy bitches, but them bitches gon be unhaaapy too, so fuck it, I'll GMOY. Don't wake me the morning after, I'll be sleeping till noon.
Aldabruzzo Mod 3y ago
1) It's not a double standard; it's a different standard. Because men and women are different.
2) The question would be more apropos if he had said: "women should give up their attraction to bad boys, and men should give up their attraction to stupid emotionally unstable alcoholic sluts with Cluster B personality disorders".
Men aren't attracted to stupid emotionally unstable alcoholic sluts with Cluster B personality disorders. They're attracted to thin, pretty, young, and fertile women, many of whom are stupid emotionally unstable alcoholic sluts with Cluster B personality disorders.
And women get really good at hiding stupidity, emotional instability, alcoholism, sluttiness, and their personality disorders. Women use sex to distract, feign, and conceal.
See the difference?
I will say this though: "Bad boy" is a proxy for masculinity. Men who are "bad boys" exhibit confidence, dominance, "swagger", refusal to take women seriously, and an IDGAF attitude, all of which women find attractive.
But "stupid emotionally unstable alcoholic personality disordered slut" is not a proxy for femininity. It's a proxy for easy sexual access. Or, at least it can be. Men don't find these things attractive; but they will use those traits as indicating ease of sexual access and they will tolerate those traits, some men longer than others.
moorekom Mod 3y ago
Well said.
[deleted] 3y ago
This has a non starter component. The internal virtue is what counts across the board with commitment and faithfulness. Women who are unfaithful can look however, and be unfaithful. There's no method where a man can land himself a faithful happy housewife because she's not young, thin, pretty...because AWALT...the hypergamous potential is always there, suppressed or not, regardless of her appearance. Along with that, a rule that a lot of men hate to learn but still applies within human nature is women would rather share an alpha then be stuck loyal to a beta.
jstrockmeyer 3y ago
Looks dont have anything to do from mens point of view.
First, men are way less picky regarding physical appearance (lets just say, as an average, no fat, and still you get lots of guys with the fetish...)
The problem is hypergamy in itself: Even a less than average woman is going to have the hamster running full time, and will monkey branch at any chance. Even if she initially does not think that way, society (and friends) will try to turn her and she will allow it. She may resist at the beginning and even tell you about it when she comes home to you, but eventually she will cave in.
Magicus1 3y ago
I think he had the message partially correct and partially incorrect.
The idea of thinness is purely physical.
Women don’t want men to be morbidly obese either, that’s just unhealthy.
But, then there’s the issue of money & virtue.
Women don’t have an equivalent of “money” (i.e. Resource) that men want.
Virtue: As mentioned above, as gatekeepers of sex, women can have sex with whomever they want, but men can’t.
Men, however, can only commit. In fact, it’s our only weapon against women.
Relationships are about a give and a take.
Men can give money, commitment, & loyalty, but women need to give in return also.
Women should give XXXXX, commitment, and loyalty.
But men don’t really want more than a particular amount of money, really, as long as spending and saving is controlled.
So, in this unbalanced equation, what can replace XXXXX?
Well, in this case, looks, really. This assumes, of course, that she’s more attractive than him.
If he’s equally as attractive or hotter than her, the equation is unbalanced.
And this is why overly attractive men aren’t loyal to average women — the equation is unbalanced.
antifeminist3 3y ago
' if men could just get over their attraction to young, thin, pretty women and choose faithful and loving homemakers...'
What makes her think that young, thin pretty women are less faithful and worse homemakers?
The only relevant research is that a woman with fewer partners is less likely to divoce--that favors younger women
Women who don't sleep around before their wedding have happier marriages - but men can play the field without worry, study finds
houseoftolstoy Mod 3y ago
The way I see it, it is an attempt to try and find fault in women who are more physically attractive then them by trying to claim that they must have some negative aspects to balance out the fact that they are thinner and prettier. Physical appearance does not dictate whether or not you have good intrinsic qualities, though it can create opportunities to not cultivate good personality traits due to a lack of necessity in order to find relationships.
There is somewhat of a correlation of personality traits when it comes to being overweight, as that can be an indicator of a poor impulse control, laziness, and a lack of personal accountability. Being overweight does not automatically make you a bad person, but it often is accompanied by those sorts of traits that also indicate that someone is a poor choice for a long term relationship.
moorekom Mod 3y ago
It's the fear that those women will have more options and choose to exercise those options. Most men think, mistakenly, that an average woman will behave herself since she knows she is not hot. That is what men do. That is not women do. Women behave if you enforce rules and consequences.
FRedington 3y ago
My response:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EqFVWzOfN8
see also:
Jimmy Soul, "If you want to be happy"
https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=%22if+you+want+to+be+happy+for+the+rest+of+your+life%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
I wish you all well.