In the game of social hierarchy, the ones who rise to Alpha positions are the ones who can best understand and lead other individuals and groups. It is usually the outcome of conflicts that cements peoples' positions in the hierarchy, so strong verbal skills are important.
VERBAL JUDO turns the force of attackers against themselves, as opposed to attacking back. You'll need it most for nondisposable relationships like family, bosses, colleagues, etc.
This post is an introduction to the concepts of Verbal Judo, and how to apply it in situations that can make or break your position in a given group's pecking order. For those who have wondered, "How can I become more Alpha, without becoming that asshole? this might be part of the answer. Verbal Judo has some elements in common with persuasion, but unlike persuasion, ideally seeks a state of mutual equilibrium rather than dominance or complete position conversion.
Verbal Judo Theory
Communication has many layers. Whether it's a shit test like "You always want sex!" or a Mother-in-law who whines, "You never visit!", there is more to the message than just the words, or even the body language.
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Status of each participant Communication can happen within a dominant/submissive frame, such as parent/child, boss/employee, officer/enlistee etc, or within a nominally equal frame, such as co-workers, colleagues, siblings, some couples, etc. Healthy unequal power dynamic relationships include Captain/First Mate model relationships, Management/employees, and military ranks. Unhealthy ones include a mother-in-law who treats you and your wife like children, a coercive "friend," and an insubordinate employee or soldier. Trying to outright flip a relationship of unequals may result in resistance and a needlessly costly battle. Though it might seem counterintuitive to the aspiring Alpha, sometimes the best social option is to approach these situations more from a position of nominal equals.
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Mode of communication Linguistics professor Virginia Satir identified five major communication styles: Blamer, Placater, Computer, Distractor, and Leveler. Recognizing the type an adversary is using allows you to calibrate your response accordingly. For example, if your boss is in blaming mode and you really need to level with him to resolve the problem, you might have to respond in placater or computer mode until he calms down enough to speak level, as closer to nominal equals. Also, consider the loop of two Placaters trying to decide where to go for lunch, or the chaos of an office full of female Distractors tasked with working together on an important project.
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Tone and inflection The same words can have different meanings or intensity when uttered with lazy passivity or stern aggression. Verbal Judo seldom recommends being the loudest or more aggressive voice. Try this: the more loud and agitated the other party becomes, the softer and calmer you become. This REALLY pisses angry people off, where a yelling match would actually satisfy them.
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Body Language This is an important communication channel worthy of its own post. Body language is usually involuntary, and when there is a discrepancy between a person's words and their body language, the body language is usually correct. Assuming a nominally equal body language can prevent or help break an unproductive pattern of dominance/submission. Examples at the personal level include rising to shake someone's hand eye-to-eye, and on the international level holding meetings at a round table to eliminate implied superiority of any individual. Judo suggests that bending to or pivoting away from these power plays is often a better option than attempting to assume the dominant role, which frankly isn't always ours to grab in every situation.
- Presuppostions A seemingly simple sentence can have a freight of presuppositions loaded into it. These might be the dogma of political parties, feminism, even a dash of Disney storylines. Manipulative people effortlessly dish out communication loaded with presuppositions which are veiled attacks, and if you take the bait and respond to the presupposition, you've gone into their frame and lost the debate in the eyes of everyone present, sometimes not even realizing the extent of what happened. These presuppositions tend to fall into a few common patterns that are easy to learn to recognize and maneuver correctly.
Patterns of attack
Common attack patterns include, "Even YOU should...", "A person who...", and "If you REALLY..." Let's consider the above example, an LTR arguing, "You ALWAYS want sex!" This seemingly simple statement is actually loaded with presuppositions.
- 1 You never want anything else BESIDES sex from me
- 2 There is an amount of sex that is too much at present and you're over that arbitrary line
- 3 It is somehow wrong of you to want sex from me too often
- 4 You should feel bad that you want too much sex from me.
- 5 I feel bad/threatened/etc about this situation
The average person is liable to viscerally respond to the attack and shaming of presuppostion #3/4, and proceed to argue against #1, citing examples of other things they've done as a couple as she shoots them each down, because he failed to address #5. Or, he might passively agree and reduce his demands for sex, worsening the relationship problem in the process.
Assuming this is a baseless shit or comfort test (as opposed to a legitimate complaint), the better Verbal Judo response would be to recognize and NOT accept/display any of the presumed shame of #3/4, or step onto the treadmill of arguing 1/2. Rather, figure out a way to address #5 from within YOUR frame, without falling 100% into hers. Rather than attack back, one could agree she sounds upset about it and solicit a solution as the first move, agree and amplify (carefully), agree and deflect (You BET I love sex with you, but you're not getting any until we [do something she wants but was NOT expecting]). Proficiency at Verbal Judo comes from not only recognizing veiled attacks by their patterns and understanding the nested presuppostions, but responding to them in a way that plays out and exhausts the strength of the attack, rather than clashing with it head-on with certain escalation and collateral damage.
Useful skills for Verbal Judo
Assertiveness Instead of the usual pattern of being passive OR aggressive, an assertive person states his own position while accounting for and respecting the position and interests of the other party. Rather than seeing every human transaction as a zero-sum game where one must lose for another to win, assertiveness seeks win-win situations, which in the long term, can confer higher and more stable social status than aggressive self-interest.
Situational awareness Just as fighting martial arts teach the importance of being aware of your surroundings, Verbal Judo is enhanced by being able to quickly and accurately spot and understand the power structures in a given social situation or landscape. Be observant, and always strive to improve at reading individuals and groups.
Command Voice Like that of a commanding officer. Firm, solid, makes people MOVE without delay or debate. Also, the sense to know when to use this, which is almost never. Much of its power in civilian social life is in the surprise factor.
Stoic, unflappable frame. Don't let others affect your mood or emotions, especially noticibly! Manipulative people tend to be excellent at spotting subtle cues that they're affecting your frame; if you cut off this feedback entirely, it frustrates their efforts.
Fogging This is the technique of nominally agreeing with accusations made against you in an argument, rather than fighting them. The effect is like swinging fists into fog and never making solid contact, which can exhaust and de-escalate an argument. Using the Mother-In-Law example from above:
"You never visit." Now that you mention it, we haven't gotten out there much this year.
"It's like you don't even care about me!" I can see how that might leave you feeling neglected.
Your intended adversary will expend all of their energy and expunge their frustration while you noncommitally agree with them, leaving their argument flattened, their concerns voiced, and the door now open to discuss the matter in terms of your mutual interests, and for you to draw the situation all the way back into your frame without resistance or rancor.
Conclusion Verbal Judo helps establish and maintain a better place in the social pecking order without relegating either party to the extremes of passive and aggressive.
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Usually an Alpha is the oak, but when circumstances dictate he bend like a reed, Verbal Judo helps maintain frame even with openly manipulative people.
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Communication has many levels besides the verbal.
- Parse the presuppositions out of arguments; if you mistakenly respond to one of these, you'll lose.
To learn more I strongly recommend the early editions of The gentle art of verbal self-defense by neurolinguist Suzette Elgin. (Like Dale Carnegie's work, there are myriad later editions of this work, some of which are cheap bastardizations for a more general readership. The original goes into deeper technical detail at a slight expense of readability.) This book lays out and dissects the eight most common verbal attack patterns, as well as presuppositions and the perils of responding to the incorrect ones. Edit: Format, clarity
[deleted] 8y ago
What year of publishing do you recommend for The Gentle Art of Verbal Self Defence?
monkeycycling 8y ago
Got excited when I saw 'Judo' in the title. Was dissapointed and left without anything of substance.
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 8y ago
This is a necessarily superficial introduction to a book-length topic; I agree it's hard to give the subject adequate coverage in one post. Kind of like all the off-road videos I've ever taken; the camera never does hill climbs justice compared to being there on the motorcycle.
SrPildoraRoja 8y ago
...And this is how you apply Fogging.
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 8y ago
LOL... the post grew long and the hour late, so I wasn't able to include as many examples as I'd hoped. However, the comments have helped fill the gap, sometimes even intentionally.
old_and_busted 8y ago
So basically this post boils down to, have a normal constructive conversation without getting riled up.
Wow, Never would have thought of that on my own.
SlappaDaBayssMon 8y ago
I understand how you could see it that way.
Do you have any ideas that would help people who lack social skills achieve a better understanding of the nuances of conversation?
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 8y ago
If only every person's communication mode was always as a Leveler, and every communique was straightforward with no presuppositions or passive-aggressiveness, then every conversation in life WOULD be normal and constructive, and there would be no need for verbal judo.
ThrowingMyslfOutther 8y ago
Bad analogy. Not really what judo is.
Better analogy, JuJitsu or Aikido
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 8y ago
You're technically correct; I didn't come up with the name when it was developed in the '70s however so it won't be easy for me to fix.
As a martial arts practitioner for 8+ years, I agree that Aikido is a better metaphor. However, lots of modern MMA fans scoff at Aikido, so no point bringing that side argument to the discussion today.
TheSliceman 8y ago
Actually Judo and Aikido operate on the same principle of the using the others force against him.
JuJitsu is fooling the opposition with misdirection into making the submission easy. Trickery if you will.
The OPs analogy would work best with boxing. Dont let the aggression throw you off your game (frame).
CoolRunner 8y ago
Do you have like a book link or something?
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 8y ago
Pretty sure it's a bad idea to put a link in the thread, but they're all over Ebay and Amazon. Search Elgin Self Defense. Look for the older editions, not the newer variations like "the last word" etc.
Also look at the bottom of the linked Wiki article, there are two other prominent authors and their works on this subject there. It's a fascinating and useful topic, worth reading about for the aspiring Alpha.
[deleted] 8y ago
Question: Why avoid the newer editions?
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 8y ago
I'm not saying they're bad, just that the original edition does a better job of really breaking down the attack patterns and linguistics to the nuts and bolts level, whereas the "final word" edition appears to be edited more for mass appeal.
Some of her later titles look interesting and cover other ground; it looks like others might be low-effort rehashes of the subject matter, like the Dale Carnegie/Rich Dad/ Chicken Soup for the Ass Soul franchises started pushing out.
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RememberingAlpha 8y ago
I feel like this can be summarized by saying the person who gets upset/angry first loses.
razorwan 8y ago
Ahh yes, I see that you know your Judo well. Good one.
human_bean_ 8y ago
I think there's one missing. One that's been on my mind. Leftist are all about racism. Yet, they obviously do have racial hatred. I think it is projected through asserting domination through ineffectual gestures of good will and helpfulness.
By making someone dependent, you are making them powerless. Yet, it's so easy to become dependent, when there's someone there to make your life easier, just because they are so damn nice.
A lot of mental health institution is also about this. Making people powerless. An ego trip for the staff and a cash roll for the bank.
If you truly wanted to help people, you would make them understand power, like the Red Pill does. Yet, they do the opposite. So, my only conclusion can really be that this is one of the most devious of human power plays. They might believe that they are helping people, but in fact it is their own nature deceiving them into actually manipulating other people into giving them their power.
mightysultan 8y ago
Thanks for this very educational post that will surely help me in my life.
twoheadedratboy 8y ago
Excellent post, keep them coming.
SrPildoraRoja 8y ago
Sidebar material. Solid post, OP.
RedPharaohRising 8y ago
My go to for your example is a thinly veiled threat: you should be more concerned about the day I STOP wanting sex.
Diffuses 5 and ignores the others.
If she's comfort testing, follow up with 'but not anytime soon, you're my girl'.
If it's shit, just deadpan and she's now scared.
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 8y ago
Excellent Red Pill example, thank you for that.
Instead of being pulled into her frame and fighting the (wrong) battle on her terms, this response sidesteps the presuppositions of her claim and addresses the meat of the matter (pun intended) directly and effectively.
McLarenX 8y ago
Exactly. You're a beast that needs to be satiated with good fucks regularly. Not some poor little weakling that needs pity fucks. If you're not being pleased then you'll find it elsewhere.
That's the mentality.
[deleted] 8y ago
Another good book if anyone is interested on this topic is When I say No, I Feel Guilty.
It's a great book on direct communication and is to be used as a tool for getting what you want in a pussified society where everyone apologizes to everyone else and everyone feels guilty towards everyone else.
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 8y ago
Good point, thanks for bringing it up. There's a reason the sidebar books keep coming up ITT. While they don't necessarily mention Assertiveness and Verbal Judo by name, they do teach many of the principles and techniques of both.
slay_it_forward 8y ago
Most of this can be boiled down to ego. Stop for a second and ask yourself if this is your ego / emotions talking, take a deep breath and then respond accordingly.
Check out Eckhart Tolle for more on getting past the ego. He has rock solid frame because he's always coming from a place of presence.
Rimeheart 8y ago
I am really happy to see some one else use the term verbal judo. I have been using it for years as a way to describe how I argue with people at times. My techniques follow this same line of essentially taking all the power out of their argument or asking questions about their statements that make it clear they are not considering the entire situation and are wrong in some way with out me arguing or saying out they are wrong. This tends to make them get distracted with their own thoughts of how they might be wrong and lessens their over all anger/ disruptive actions in the argument.
nicechallenge 8y ago
It would be great if you do a post about real life situations like examples of guys trying to manipulate or shit testing and how to responde appropiately. Anyways it was a good post I'm looking forward for more in depth Info thanks bro.
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 8y ago
Thank you, and now I'm planning on doing exactly that. This long post covered a lot of theoretical ground; now there needs to be a companion post that's more of a "workbook" of specific examples.
redparadigm 8y ago
That would be awesome. Theory is nice and all, but would also love to see more random real life applications and scenarios.
nicechallenge 8y ago
Great, I will be looking forward for that post, have a nice day!
VasiliyZaitzev 8y ago
Excellent post. I would also suggest adding a bit about "Training", as in training people how to communicate with you better, or in ways that are more productive.
For example, I got something of a "you never" out of a plate recently; I had forgotten about something I had promised to do that was evidently very important to her, but to me was a trifle (which is why I had 'promised' to do it; it was unimportant to me and would not affect my life.)
She launched into a bit of a fit, accused me of breaking my word, etc. So after I figured out what she was on about, I treated it as a 'teachable moment'. This particular plate knows about my other plates (that they exist, not who they are), and thus is in a state of constant terror that she will lose me (which came out one time when she was giving me asslip about something and I told her she should back off it and that she should be afraid of losing me, to which she replied, "I am always afraid of losing you".) Anyway, I pointed out that, in spite of her admitted fear to appear to be questioning me, or my authority, that I never tear he head off, etc. So I formalized it by 'teaching' her that if she comes to me, speaks to me respectfully, that I will listen to her concern without blowing up at her or beating her (which I wouldn't do, anyway).
Sorted.
Uncle Vasya
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 8y ago
Many highly manipulative people often aren't highly educated or insightful about human nature; they've heuristically picked up manipulative techniques along the way in their lives and they mostly work smoothly for them. When they hit the wall of someone skilled in Verbal Judo or who otherwise doesn't buy the BS they're peddling, their only fallback is often to become agitated and provoke a dramatic scene. Just one such episode is often sufficient to "train" them that you are not someone who can be manipulated, and they will often avoid you for easier pickings in the future.
For non-disposable people you'll have recurring contact with, substituting assertion and a chance at all parties saving face has better long-term outcome potential than the usual impulse to counterattack and shut them down with humility.
With a good knowledge base of Verbal Judo, it becomes as easy to deflect loaded manipulative statements as it is for manipulative people to dish them out.
VasiliyZaitzev 8y ago
Said it better than I could. In the case of my plate, she wants to communicate in a way that I will best understand her problem, such as it may be at any given time, but doesn't know how; hence the teachable moment. She's young and her family life sucked; hence her seeking out a daddy figure.
RBuddDwyer 8y ago
Along the same lines is When I Say No I Feel Guilty. Fogging, negative assertion, and negative inquiry are three go-to tactics for any shit test.
One thing I will critique your post on is where you describe fogging as:
It's more nuanced then that. You look to agree with any part of the argument, or perhaps the general sentiment of the argument, never the whole argument itself. Your examples do a good job illustrating it, but I just wanted to clarify what it actually is.
Also, there is a book called "Verbal Judo," that is written for patrol officers about how to diffuse certain situations out on the streets and gain compliance without physical force. The tactics included in that book, while good ones to know in general, are not the best ones to handle shit tests from women.
laere 8y ago
I like doing this:
"Hey laere you're such a faggot."
Put a hand on their shoulder, "yeah, you're probably right."
I love switching it up too.
Philhelm 8y ago
If sitting, hand should go above the knee.
That reminds me of a time when I was doing partner assisted stretches during an Army training event. My partner was stretching my leg, and one hand was just below the knee in order to brace my leg. He kept stretching and asked if I was okay, so I kept asking him to place his hand lower. "Is that good?" "No, just a little lower." I finally laughed at him when he was close to touching my junk and it finally dawned on him what I was doing.
Edit: This was during the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" period, so I wouldn't recommend doing something like that today, since someone might get "offended."
RBuddDwyer 8y ago
Quite the contrary, you would be protected in today's Army.
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rundownweather 8y ago
I can see how that might annoy you.
SeekingTheWay 8y ago
i must totally disagree. while most people simply act vaguely by some of these guidelines because they "just get it", we can use and abuse the rules of communication only when we completely and to great extent grasp them.
MentORPHEUS Endorsed Contributor 8y ago
I expanded upon a short comment that proved popular in /u/Whisper 's post about Frame, as a matter of fact.
It's like a smorgasbord of information here; take what you need for where you are in your RP journey, leave the rest.
[deleted] 8y ago
Floating like a butterfly...
Well played.
[deleted]