I just want to thank everyone for the advice. I have read, and re-read, and re-read every post on here, and I'm taking the advice I get very seriously, some I can and will implement, some of it probably just isn't for me, or at least isn't right now. Last night I went home and talked to my wife for four hours, we got a lot accomplished. She pretty much cried the whole time and I sat very stoic and told her how it is, it went very well.

I don't know what the future holds for me and my wife, I'm hoping that if last night wasn't a wake up call, it was a kick in the ass. She knows that she needs to get motivated and get her ass off the bed, and I flat out told her that.

I'm far from perfect, and obviously I have issues that I'm working on. Dependence on the relationship, enabling her to do fuck all, overall just being a pushover. Here's the things I'm going to do:

-Get in better shape. I started the 100 push up challenge with some buddies, I'm also looking to get a set of dumbbells. I know cardio is shit on in TRP a bit, but I have no stamina and I think that will help, plus I need to get rid of the fat. I also plan on running a 5 mile in a few months.

-Work on my hobbies. I have a charcoal smoker that I love using, right now it's cold as shit but I'm going to try new recipes and try to compete with it this year. I want to get outdoors more often as well, I love hiking, camping, fishing, etc. I don't do it nearly as often as I want.

-Home improvement. My house is getting older and I know don't know much about home improvement, but I have a dad and a father-in-law that know a ton. Shit needs to be done, like build a new bedroom in my basement. Even just minor repairs I've been putting off. Fixing those gives me a great sense of accomplishment

-Stop taking shit, at home and at work. I told my wife that I'm not doing everything for her last night, and that when she's acting like a bitch I'm going to call her on it. At work I've already started working on this, instead of rolling over and doing everything that someone says I'm questioning them and telling them "no".

-Have some gawdamn dignity. Aside from my body, I have everything that a woman could want, I've got real value to women. If my wife continues to not see it, or see it and not do anything about it, I'm prepared to leave. I'm working on an exit strategy if that were to happen, but like many of you said, words without action are just words.

I will try to post updates as changes warrant them. Thanks again for all the help, motivation, and reality checks!

Dude you don't have to listen to all the shity advice you're about to get from a lot of people who don't know much about life/relationships. They're gonna expect you to go all out right away, you need some redpill in your life but that can come later.

Right now all you need is some self respect.

You just need to man the fuck up and not let her shit all over you and use you. You need to lay down the law and make her know that if she keeps this shit up you're leaving her. She needs to be aware that you're not putting up with this shit no more.

Make her work for you from now on.

If she doesn't then just think about it, do you really wanna put up with this shit for the rest of your life? You still have a chance right now to start over with someone new WHO RESPECTS YOU. She doesn't see you as a man, she sees you as her little bitch.

You need to be serious about manning up too, make it very clear that if she doesn't change her ways you're gone. But be serious about it, you need to accept the fact that you two might be over soon, you need to be prepared for that wether it's her or you breaking it off you need to be ready to go "alright, here's my lawyers number" and just leave dude.

Remember self respect is what's most important here, love yourself more then you love her from now on, your happiness is more important then hers.

Best of luck and remember that a lot of personal opinions come from this subreddit and not everything you read is redpill, so read up on everything and form your own opinions.

Edit: added more manning

I was in a very similar situation. I'm 34 and was married 10 years. I did everything you're doing:

• went to counselor to work on myself
• read books on how to improve a marriage (even joined a support forum)
• blew off stuff I wanted to do so I could be more supportive
• was very patient regarding the lack of affection/sex (while being crushed inside)
• tried to rationalize her bad behavior
• put up with so many damn excuses, including medical

None of that worked. Things only got worse, and the marriage ended.

I didn't understand until after the divorce that the only thing that could bring her back was for her to realize that I didn't need her at all. That she was there to meet my expectations, and if they didn't get met, I would find someone who would meet them. She needed to feel a kind of space between us, so that she could see that I was a man with appetites and the will to satisfy them, and that she had to close the distance between us or walk away.

I'm sure you can see how doting on her is counterproductive to this.

So, you have two things you need to do. One, demonstrate that you are a self-reliant man who does not need or appreciate the paltry attention she currently, and two, create some space. The first requires accepting that your marriage might end and that you will deal with that possibility with a stoic attitude and goal-setting behavior. You have to believe you are number one. You don't give up what you want to do for her if she's not worth it (and that means demonstrates behaviors that please you). You work out, you hang with your friends, you eat good food.

The second requires getting some sort of distance from her. This ranges from simply cutting down on the hovering you do to conducting a a trial separation. The former is extremely difficulty in my experience. As men, we often assume we can fix everything through proactivity in the direction of people who are inactive. This cannot work with your wife because she already sees you as a non-sexual entity, and your presence reinforces this. But, the situation generates anxiety and, because you basically grew up as an adult with her and she's your close friend, you go to her in an attempt to score validation and relieve that anxiety.

This can never work.

A woman is attracted to men she knows has options. All the behaviors you're displaying indicate that you don't believe you do, even if that isn't truly the case. Think of a very attractive man. Do you think he'd put up with what you're getting? No, he'd just call one of his other women and move on. You have to do the things that suggest you are that man. In addition to being fit and successful, the best way to do this is to move out for a bit and stop talking to her so much. You have to create "space" so she starts wondering what you're up to. She has to really, truly believe that you are ready to leave her ass in the dirt and get new ass.

Maybe this sounds cruel to you. Maybe it sounds manipulative. But, your woman is sick. She's sick because she is not attracted to you, and part of her hates that. Unfortunately, she cannot cure this sickness. Only you can by demonstrating that she can lose you to someone else, and that you are of high enough quality that the thought of that becomes unbearable. Nothing about the marriage contract changes this dynamic between men and women.

Men smarter than I am told me all of this when my wife having her meltdown. I didn't listen. I only drove her further away because she felt pressured and disgusted. She literally told me that she could not see me in a sexual way, and she wasn't sure she ever loved me. She left. I moved on and worked on myself.

Now she see's how I'm doing. Promoted at work. Months away from finishing a PhD. Dating a young, attractive woman. Now I get emails and texts about how she's grieving over the loss and misses me. How she's so proud of how I'm doing. How we should spend time together.

So, move out and move on. She'll either come to you or not. If she does, great. If not, then you can drown your sorrows in between the thighs of young, hot women. Either way, you regain your manhood.

EDIT: Thanks for the gold.

Well done. Well done for asking for help. Honestly well done.

I suggest reading the sidebar. And just swallowing. Welcome aboard.

You're in a really deep hole. Your wife has no respect for you -- this isn't about her medical or mental issues, her current life status, your current life status, or any of that. She has NO respect for you. You don't matter to her. She doesn't consider you her mate. You're just some roommate she's been taking advantage of.

You'd probably be happier and better off just divorcing her. It's going to be a lot of work to reclaim any of this, and she'll fight you every step of the way, because what she thinks she wants and what she actually needs are very much not the same.

But if you have to stay in the marriage for some reason, there is one golden rule that must remain true: You must be willing to cut ties and walk out at any time. If you are not actually willing to leave and are just talking out your ass, you have nothing. No leverage, no hope, no power, no respect.

Your wife needs to believe, with 100% certainty, that you very much will leave her if things don't improve. And that you very much do have options with other women, but even if you didn't, that you will very much be happy and have a very fulfilling life without her. She needs to see you happy, in shape, doing your own things, having fun, maybe meeting other women, and just plain taking your life in directions you enjoy, with or without her. She needs to see your life as something she wants to hitch her wagon to again, but for that to happen, you can not be doing this for her or to attract her or to fix things. You have to focus on yourself and what's best for you (which may include leaving her if she doesn't shape up), and she can come along for the ride, or not. Because your life is about you. It's been about this ungrateful and disrespectful woman for too long.

Good info here. I don't need to contribute as I have no idea what to do with married life.

See the difference of the posts here and what you've been getting from the reddit drones. Here people are telling you your options, what you can do at this point, and most of all to value yourself.

Some may jive well with you, some you might find silly. But at least you have some actionable advice to work with.

Good luck.

Geeez..... I hope you somehow spend the rest of your life finding and doing things that make you happy - you specifically, not your wife or anyone else.

She stepped backwards with the shopping cart and stepped on my toes with the heel of her boots. She purposely put all her weight on it and it hurt like hell.

Yes, my wife does get physical with me at times. Sigh, this is fucking pathetic. Occasionally she'll try to hit me in the groin, not out of anger, just playfully. I'm not sure if she thinks it's just funny or she is trying to emasculate me. There hasn't been any instances except for the stepping on my toes this past week so I haven't been able to correct her, but I will be the next time she does it.

This part disturbed me the most. Some thoughts:

a) Switch genders and imagine a woman mentioning, even in passing, on /r/relationships, that her husband purposefully stomped her foot, or punches her in the breasts once in a while. Imagine the furore, the sheer penis-cutting fury of the hivemind who, given enough information, may actually physically harm such a man. Now go back and read your thread and realize that no one offered to protect your back even 1/10th despite being an EQUAL victim of abuse.

b) I'm happy for you that you are standing up to this kind of behaviour. It doesn't matter what her motives are, but it will matter to you, my friend, that you protect your self-esteem by standing up for yourself. Say"No" when she does this extremely emphatically.

Other than this, to make her respect you, I have some specific advice:

a) Take sex. You want to tap that ass? TELL her that you're going to tap that ass. Don't fucking REQUEST it. If she wants to say "No", she should have the space to do it, but being assertive is important. This goes especially well with point b:

b) Body language : if you found /r/theredpill, you're competent enough to find the article on /r/seduction, etc; but basic things like : stand up straight. Hold your head high. Own your space when you walk. Like a boss. And in a month, you'll notice that that's how you actually FEEL, too. For example, you'll just find yourself getting more service at restaurants, at 7/11, wherever you go. There is absolutely no need to walk through life as if you are apologetic for your existence. On the contrary, after some weeks of being a boss (in terms of body language), you will find that everybody around you is just much more comfortable with you being so confident. In every interaction, roles become much more clear because you are assertive. Men love a confident man. Women love a confident man. And you will love a confident you. :-)

c) Read more of /r/seduction : not because you want to seduce anyone, but because they focus constantly on being alpha. In my experience, the body language was enough to make a radical difference in how I interfaced with the world.

I would leave a bitch who hit me in the groin even once or did that foot stomping thing, I mean : how can I be inspired to be with someone who is cruel??, but even if you choose to stay with her, I can see from your initiative that you're going to be a BOSS very soon! :-)

Damn, you actually found your way here.

A lot of advice you usually hear in this sub is "NEXT!", and while I'd agree in your special case (because your wife is obviously nuts), I respect your will to try to make things better. You have to ask yourself though: Is it because you think she's worth it, or is it because you're afraid? If it's just because you're afraid then leave her. You have no reason to be.

You have to realize that you have a lot to offer. You're getting in shape, have a great job and you'll be better every day. If you ever broke things off with your wife, she'd be worse off then you. Nobody wants a wife past the wall and especially not a one that's as fucked up as yours is.

Realize that she needs you more than you need her. Also realize, that she's probably cheated on you. (Sexting just "to feel normal"), to everybody in this sub that's a huge fucking red flag. Are you sure her pain while having sex is not just something she came up with to not have sex with you anymore?

• Start working out (and I mean it, every other day!)

• Start being social with other girls (You don't have to fuck them, it's enough if your wife sees that you have options)

• If your wife doesn't do something for you, then you won't do anything for her either

• Don't beg for handjobs in the shower. Don't ever beg for anything, take it! (Note: I'm not saying rape her.) What I mean is, that your life is in your own hands, and if she doesn't want to help you out, some other girl surely will. You are the man in your own house and you have control over what happens.

• You're 34. You might believe that's pretty old, but you have probably another 10 years until you're really past your prime. (Look at Brad Pitt, that guy's is fucking 50!). Get in shape and keep your good job and you won't be able to run away from all the women you could get.

• Do not show your wife any actual emotion as long as she doesn't please you. You stand above her (socially & emotionally) and she has to feel that. Women never respect men they have control over.

If you indeed want to save your marriage, you've come to the right place. Do as you're told by the guys in this sub and you'll be good. I just hope your wife's worth it, I would have shot her to the moon ages ago, but that's just me. Good luck bro.

I'm not gonna lie, this literally made my day. I read the king beta post and, well, here you are. Welcome to the dark side. Also, amidst the high probability that she is having an affair, start documenting anything you can get in writing especially about any meds she's on. It might not be time for a lawyer now, but in the future, who knows? Anyways, welcome to the fold.

Welcome to the real world Neo

EDIT:

You need an entire rewrite of your personal mindset. That starts by reading all the material to the right --->

Read it. Understand it. Own it.

There's no little trick thing you can say or do that can fix things. You have to become a different man.

You have to change yourself into an Alpha. You need to get in shape physically and mentally.

You have to get to a place where you'll look at your wife with a feeling of neutrality. All desperation must leave you. She needs to be the wanting sweating you - not you sweating her.

This takes time.

The first thing you need to do is back away from her and leave her be. Start focusing on yourself. Self improvement is your mission. You take care of that - things will start to fall into place - whether you can fix your marriage or whether divorce becomes the inevitable path.

KingOfAllBetas, please post updates on what is happening once in a while.

Hey. In that thread, I said you were hopeless - that some men were just made to be betas, and that was that. I basically went on about how you were too worthless, too hamster to ever do a 180 in your life. Maybe you are, maybe you're not. Only you know.

Here's the one piece of advice that I have for "hard-case" betas. The old you has to die for a new person to come forth. You figuratively have to KILL the bitch in you if you want to be better than that. You have to understand that you will never be the same - you have to be willing to lose your wife, your friends, your limited views on morality, everything that you cherish as your 'identity'. To become the opposite of what you described in that thread... you have to understand that the price may be absolute. By that I mean, you will have to become a completely different person.

If you're willing to do that, then go deeper down the rabbit hole. If you're not, then back out now and go back to your old life. Drinking up RP ideas while not taking action and remaining in a beta's shoes will only create mental torture for you. If you aren't going to actually commit to this shit, then go back to blissful ignorance.

Remember, marriage is a power game. It's not purely a sex game, it's not purely a financial or support or emotional or romantic game. It's a power game. You currently have no power in your relationship, meaning that all you can do is go up. Don't try to "incorporate more alpha" into a beta personality. Choose to trash the beta personality and become a powerful person in all aspects of your life.

Edit: Side note, you need to figure out if you're wife is fucking around. I think you might be in the dark about that - I know you said no divorce, but from what that other thread said, it sounds like you are in denial and she is most likely having emotional / physical affairs. You need to get to the bottom of that, because once you face the truth there, your attitude towards divorce may change.

once a woman has determined that you are low status male, it is very difficult and in some cases impossible to fix.

that said, you shouldnt worry about your wife's impression of you for now.

imagine that you have both already agreed to get divorced, and you are now making preparations to get out there and smash some strange. do everything you need to do to accomplish that.

women are nuts about a guy that has options.

lift weights and fix your diet.

get out there and flirt with and attract women. in your mind, convince yourself that you just want to fuck them, not be in a relationship with them.

actually get some options. whether you fuck them is up to you. but get to a point where you know that if your wife walked out, you could have a girl in your bed within a day or two.

she will be able to sense that lack of depending on her for sexual validation and it will drive her crazy.

thats basically teh only way i know to get out of the low status role she sees you in.

once you have options, or are spinning plates as we often say around here, your neediness will disappear. neediness will dry up a pussy faster than the hottest desert sun.

For starters:
You are not a beggar

Stop behaving like one.

Also counceling will do shit if your wife disrespects you.

[deleted]

You need to stop all self deprecation.

[deleted]

you are in the inferior position. You put your wife on a pedestal in a position never seen in this world, yet we see that she is nagging, cold, frigid, not loving you, have mental issues and a big pain in the ass. You see where i'm going with this? Your wife sucks and she would be a burden for any regular guy going out with her.Yet somehow you manage to get in the inferior position in the couple even with all her horrible baggage, that's why you have been crowned king of the betas. You must really suck at relationships to be in this position, i'm not Freud maybe you have a affection problem to always trying to get validation from her?

So yeah, here's my tip : you say she's 8 (from your point of view, who knows what she really look like IRL) but who cares at this point! Better have a 6 point good girl that will repect you than a cold crazy 8.

A lot of people here are going to give you all sorts of advice with different degrees of Redpill and speculation. The truth is, no one really knows or understands your situation well enough to be giving speculative advice. The only reliable information you should take away at this point is just the general TRP concepts and let yourself figure out how to apply them to yourself.

That being said, everything about your original post says you're what we, and therapy professionals, call a "Nice Guy." And no, it's not what you think. It's a terrible thing.

If there is just ONE thing you take away from this sub, it's getting a book called ~No More Mr. Nice Guy~. It's regarded as probably the quintessential male self book ever written in modern times. In fact, it seems like your therapist is trying to help you in this field as well, so the information would be really supplementary.

If you want I can upload the audiobook to Mega for you.

I'd suggest reading Married Man Sex Life.

Remember, if other women view you as attractive then your wife will too. She might even feel compelled to please you so you wont jump ship to another gal! Imagine that :)

There is a lot of great advice in here, and I'd just be repeating it. So I'll just say good luck. It takes a lot of guts to make that first step, look in the mirror and accept you're in this state. Most of us have been through it, and shit gets a lot better.

Good luck.

Wow, what a teachable moment.

First off, I suppose it's important to note that the denizens of /r/relationships aren't intentionally leading you astray - many of them believe they're giving you rock-solid advice. That, of course, doesn't change the fact it's not based in reality and will not turn around your relationship with your wife. Or, to be more succinct: betas give shitty advice.

I'm just going to give it to you straight: anytime you're begging for a handjob in the shower, you're dealing with a woman who is fundamentally not attracted to you. Most people in the other thread are in agreement your wife wants you to divorce her, and is most likely cheating on you. You're in the unenviable position of being considered lower than pond scum to your own wife, and if you divorce her, well, that will be costly.

Also, this sounds suspiciously like pedestalization:

My wife, despite many expecting her to be fat, is actually very attractive, I don't know her weight, but she's 5'3", has a bit of a pooch, incredible breasts, her ass is getting flat from sitting in bed all day though. From the outside looking in, my wife is probably an 8 based on pure-looks alone.

She might be the human embodiment of Venus, it doesn't really matter - what matters is she's clearly not attracted to you at the moment.

I'm probably not the greatest source for marriage advice as I have never been married, but it sounds like you're on the right course with reading the sidebar and being especially focused to the MMSL stuff. I don't know if your situation can be reversed - I'd suspect not - but using those sources as a framework will be far more helpful than any shit-tier advice you're going to get from le reddit army.

Wow, you poor bastard. You've already bowed and scraped for years, so you've ingrained a dynamic in your relationship that is almost unbreakable. I think you need to take a big step back and try to honestly ask yourself what you want for the rest of your life. Even your post here is essentially "what can I do to change my behaviour so that I can get this woman to love me the way I want?" You can call it whatever you want- RedPill, Alpha, whatever. It's all bullshit in your case. You are still trying to win her over by putting up a front.

When you boil down RedPill and Alpha behaviour, the truth that lies at its core is the ability and the willingness to walk away. Alpha behaviour and RedPill theory are simply a means of projecting this ability and willingness in a way that makes the opposite sex understand the boundaries, and thereby conform to a desired behaviour or send a clear signal that it is time to move on. You are clearly not willing to walk, so you will simply end up groveling in a different manner. You may think you're being "Alpha" through certain mannerisms and actions, but if doing X to get Y is simply an empty action with no real consequences behind it, you are still just trying to win approval under a different guise. You are a paper tiger in this relationship and she knows it.

Ok, so how to give this relationship one last chance? First of all, make a list of what you would want in your ideal relationship- not your ideal relationship with her, but your ideal relationship with a mate who you will spend the rest of your life with. Beside that list, make a list of the ideal qualities that you would like to possess as a man and in the eyes of your mate. Be honest and do not make the list and think to yourself, "well, I could do without this if I got that, etc." That is the poisonous tradeoff mindset you've been stuck in for years and got you into this mess in the first place. You have to kill that part of yourself. Once this list is complete, the litmus test is whether it resembles your relationship with your current wife. If it is in any way close to the qualities she possesses, start over because you have lied to yourself. If you've got a good list, memorize it. That is your bible. Next, set a time limit. Write at the bottom of that list that your relationship will fit that list within X time or you will walk. You may not believe it yet, but write it anyway. You will look at that list every day. The more you read the list and compare it to your current situation, the more you will believe it, and the massive shortcomings in your relationship will become more and more clear. Now, do your reading and incorporate the behaviours and mindset that embody that ideal man you want to be. Some of the suggested actions on this sub are childish and pedantic, so use your head as a 34 year old man when you are forging the man you are to become. At the end of this time period, I promise you that if you read that list every day and you work at becoming your ideal man, the major shortcomings in your relationship will be clear as day and you will no longer be a paper tiger. You will be ready to walk and find that ideal mate.

As a jump start, you need a hard reset in your marriage. The only way to do this is absence. Schedule a week vacation with your buddies or solo. Tell your wife that you are taking a retreat to think and that you only want to talk to her if there is an emergency. During that week make your list and do not call her no matter what. This accomplishes two things. First, it gives you some distance to clear your head and get some objectivity when you make the list. Second, your wife is going to have an "oh shit" moment when you're not around licking her boots every day. When you come back, she is going to treat you different because she will, for the first time in your relationship, have the hard realization that you might leave if shit does not change. She is going to treat you well for a short period of time. Then, slowly but surely, she is going to test your boundaries and try to suck you back into that bitch dynamic. At this point, you will take a step back, realize what she is doing, and study your list. You will not let your resolve slowly erode. You will cling to that list like it is a life raft. Because it is. It's your life to live how you want, and you shall not live it in a shitty quagmire of despair.

Begin your life my friend, it's yours to take.

Your wife is probably having an affair.

Regardless, once a woman has dehumanized you so much, there's not much chance of recovery with her. I think your best bet for happiness is to get back out there and find another woman you can do better with.

1. She is more than likely cheating on you or is about to... sexting? really? These things are like icebergs what you actually only see is just the tip of it - and believe me she aint getting just the 'tip'.

2. She is making you feel like shit because she wants an excuse to be the victim in this situation. YOU leave her, it's your fault, what an asshole, no wonder im needing another guy to fuck me. YOU dont leave her, this guy is a pathetic door mat, yuck so unattractive I need a real man.

3. People if they have said it already are right this is all your fault. She is in a depressing subconsciously dysfunctional relationship were her needs are pandered too, but isnt with someone that she respects as an EQUAL. You have failed to maintain her respect for you. You have failed to treat her as a equal and partner instead you have treated her like a master.

4. You cant expect others to respect or admire you if you dont think it yourself. You really need to start thinking for yourself, be more realistically selfish, get her off her moping arse, you realise that this is cyclic? you do EVERYTHING for her and it gives her more time to get deeper into into this shite. You dont have to go from one extreme to the other just enough to get her moving about.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and over and expecting a different result. Read the sidebars, improve yourself, dont pander exclusively to her needs. Affect change. One problem with the TRP is people who imbrace it after having a revelation about how it all works, they go right off into the deepend and go extreme, you really dont need to. Just adjust, take an even keel and become the man your partner needs you to be, not wants you to be - that clearly is NOT working out so far....

"being told to just wait longer and it will get better." First of all this is my first post here but, i have been reading this sub since i joined Reddit.

I am only posting on this because nothing angers me more that the above phrase. know what just waiting around and hoping things gets better gets you?

That's right its get you having your fiancee fucking another guy instead of going to your grandfathers funeral

If you want your life to get better you have to make it happen you can't rely on outside sources or "luck"

in the end do whats best for yourself as my father instilled in me if you aren't happy with yourself you won't be happy in any kind of relationship

Everyone here is all kinds of retarded and I'll give advice as I see it.

You're wife isn't gonna change. Depression is a life long illness that makes someone behave selfishly and with out morals. I've always considered depression to be on the same stage as sociopaths and borderline personality disorder, because no matter how hard someone depressed tries, it's very hard to care about someone else when you feel so miserable. None of this "lay down the law" bullshit is gonna make a permant change. You're got to make a choice: do you want to spend your life with this woman as she is? Or are you willing to give her up for your happiness. Being in a relationship with someone who has depression is awful. The fact is you can't be with someone who is chemically imbalanced to the point that they can't care about you.

You aren't the king of all betas. You're a desperate man looking for the magic answer to save his marriage. It isn't gonna happen that way.

Welcome! I tried to help you out a bit in that thread there after it went south- I'm just reading through MMSL now myself. Unfortunately, it seems like most people tend to crowd source their belief structure now instead of coming up with their own....

I read your story along with the rest last night. Intriguing you came here. I am glad though because if anything, this sub will give you cold, honest and helpful answers. The drawback is that it'll probably hurt. The feel good bullshit from ask relationships has no place here and I think it's garbage that they hailed you a rapist in their delusion.

To my suggestion. MMSL is a great site for someone in your position. If you're on the primer then you know it follows a step by step plan. I like this idea because it means that in order for you to fix anything, there's a path you have to go down first.

As far as others saying that you should just bail, it's not a bad idea at this point. However, that being said, I spent some time going through his posts at his site when I first learned of the manosphere. I remember reading a couple of marriages that put the male back in his place when they were just as shot as yours.

Finally, going off your recent update, this is progress, although just slight. At some point you'll need to make stronger shows of assertion than yelling at her. She's not gonna buy that anymore. It won't change overnight if it does indeed change, but it's a good start.

Note: I know I have zero experience with marriage and I'm probably younger than you are, but this is just how I've learned to conduct myself in dealings with women and I'm passing this onto you.

[deleted]

Though your life may suck right now, there is hope for you, and it serves as a warning to younger men to not make the same mistakes. Take comfort in the knowledge that we appreciate you for what you are. There is no shame in being the king of betas, and no joy in shaming you.

I have some oddly specific advice for you: take up salsa dancing.

Start going to salsa dance classes. It is not unusual to see married people dancing without their spouses. Tell your wife you want to learn a new skill, and have a social hobby to fill your time.

Work at it and get really good. You will suck at first but keep at it and before long, you will start to improve. You might actually start to like it. In dancing, the man is the leader. The man determines how the dance plays out. The woman, as the follower, is the submissive one, and literally, follows your lead. This will increase your confidence around women.

This hobby will put you around many new people, including many attractive young women. Don't hit on the women. Be friendly, but don't get to close and for god's sake, DEFINITELY don't develop a crush on any of them. Keep them at arm's length. Because you are becoming a very good dancer, they will want to dance with you. And because you have proven yourself to not be after them sexually, they will see you as a mystery, or a mountain to be conquered. and want to dance with you even more. Your self esteem will start to increase, and your confidence will increase even more.

Your wife will react one of two ways: 1) she will become jealous of your new hobby and your new friends and will step up her game. She will be competing with young lovelies who know how to move their bodies. She will realize that sooner or later, one of these girls might turn your head. Her position is weakened and she knows it and the only way to hold onto whatever is left in this relationship is to learn how to seduce you again. Or... 2) She will join you in your new hobby. Sure, you will still dance with lots of partners (both of you will) but it will be a hobby you can do together, something you have in common, which seems to be lacking in your relationship right now.

Only good things will come from this, I promise. I've been in the same boat, more or less, and dancing saved our marriage.

You're not a beta for trying to salvage your marriage. You're a bit naive for letting things drag on as long as it has, but the difference between the Beta and being merely naive, is that the beta has no interest or intention of leading. That's clearly not you. The beta would have thrown up their hands and filed for divorce already since it's the path of least resistance.

Being perfectly honest it sounds like your wife- based on the whole "never leaves the house, barely even leaves the bed" thing- is generally not so much depressed as world weary. She's 30-something, done the family thing for some years now, and it probably hit her like a bag of bricks that she had no idea how she got there, or where she's going. This is of course based on what I've seen. You see all types when you spend enough time on the internet, as it were. That "gotta have it all!" attitude we're all fed these days caught up to her, and frankly it doesn't surprise me that she's kinda like a car engine that just refuses to turn. All the gas in the world wont make that engine go if you don't take the time to take it apart and rebuild it.

You ever consider pushing her in a positive direction? Because what she- and the latter part of this applies to you as well- needs isn't a jar of pills, its a sense of agency. Push her to do something that has a clear starting point, and end goal. Learn a language, visit the country. Take classes, get a degree. Learn an instrument. Learn how to cook something new. Paint a room. I don't know. The key here is that she needs to come to this herself. The alternative is you enabling her syndrome and dancing to her tune. That needs to stop. She had to have had hobbies at one point, start there. Just remember, no one ever found happiness at the bottom of a bottle, or a jar, or sitting around in their room all day long. Maybe it's fortunate for me that doing those sorts of things just feels like I'm pumping venom through my veins, but apparently some people can do it for a prolonged stretch of time.

As for you? You need to reintroduce the sales pitch. You don't need the marriage, she needs to sell you on it. As long as the deal remains equitable, the marriage is sound. The problem is that it sounds like she can't even begin to do that because she's got a few screws loose. The screws can be refastened, but before you do that, there's going to be obvious gaping holes in her ego (personality.)

And if the first law of business is that the customer is always right, the second law is that the customer's also a dog that doesn't even know what's in it's own best interest. I'm not saying you're holier than thou art, and incapable of doing wrong, but at the moment the problem ain't you, so far as you've communicated. It's her failure to reciprocate. Being frank it sounds like she's lacking for a sense of agency, which both keeps things simple, but that doesn't make the solution simple. It just means you can't pill the problem away. Whatever she used to measure her self worth is either gone or depriciated. She needs to fix that, but that doesn't mean you can't help her along. And no, this has nothing to do with being a doormat. Anything that was ever worth doing was also hard for a reason.

Whether you help her get to that point, or leave her to her own means has little to do with red pill, TBH, its more about your core being. Marriage is a relationship rooted in reciprocation, but no one really wrote the book on what happens when you can't get to that point. You're not at the point where you can even broach the subject of stabilizing your marriage.

Glad to see you want to to turn it around! Here are my tips:

1. Work on yourself first. Go to the gym. Read a lot (I recommend the book No More Mr. Nice Guy!). Learn something new and cool - anything from a new hobby to just learning how to take the remote apart and put it back together again. Find something to do that you enjoy and go do it!
2. Don't rely on anyone else for validation. Especially not your wife. You should feel good because you are good - not because someone else told you so!
3. Make her work for you. It can be difficult to establish this frame of mind, especially at first, but you have to start viewing yourself as someone desirable. She should be lucky just to be around you!

Welcome.

The first thing I wanted to talk to you about was medical conditions. This is a very complicated topic. The reality is that as men, we will never be able to truly equate how medical conditions mentally affect us compared to how they affect women. You may both get sick with the same flu, and it's completely possible for you to feel sort of ok, and for her to feel useless and dead. I agree that a lot of how she feels can be contrived, whether cognitively or through subconscious thinking/strategizing. The problem is that you don't know how far the rabbit hole goes in terms of her thinking. Bear with my explanation. If she's sick and all she wants to do is lay around the bed all day, the psychological constructs in her brain that encourage her to lay around all day can be so deeply rooted that they were there since she was 16 years old.

It is clear as day that she has mental problems. It's clear as day that these will never be fixed overnight, and there is a very high probability that they will never be fixed. Believe me, I've had some of these types of girls. At a certain point, I just dislodge.

I told her that it was ridiculous to wait because that could be months before it happens, if it does at all, and she’s just delaying her (and our) happiness.

Don't be this black and white. Unless you know for certain, it's completely possible that she's that fucked up.

You took the right step laying down the law in terms of how you will not take shit from her anymore. The thing about you standing up for her to your family is also good. That doesn't mean taking your wife's side, it simply means standing up for her, I see that as a good thing.

Stop fucking pleasing people. You dumbass, you've pleased everyone but yourself. 34 years old, and do you see where it got you? Keep pleasing everyone else but yourself, do you really think people care about you? No. I don't care about you, neither does anyone here, we just help you. If you die today I will sleep like a baby. You are the barrier to your own happiness, and no one else is going to do anything for you.

Also, you have to realize that you yourself have mental problems. No normal person would stay in a relationship like yours for that long. You've got a lot of personal development ahead of you, and to be honest with you, it's not certain that you will ever recover/overcome your own issues. You're also a masochist.

Congratulations dude, you really need this. Do the reading, and the most upvoted comments here are great advice. If you're going to fix this relationship, you need to sever yourself from needing her validation, and be ready to walk. What you need is here, I'm just going to add a couple of things which IMO are needed to round it out.

Firstly, one thing I believe redpill teaching on LTRs gets wrong is that you shouldn't always stay calm with her. Amused mastery as a frame works for casual pick-ups, plates, and frequently during LTRs, but there are also times when blowing the fuck up in her face is the way to go.

Women crave drama, and if you're going to have a successful relationship you need to occasionally feed that need, just like you need to be making her feel looked after and making her cum hard. So, the occasional blow-up shouting match will give her the endorphin rush she's craving, and biologically simulates the rush she's craving that's so easy to get in the early days of a relationship.

It also helps her perceive you as strong and dangerous. Remember how women see men (until they've classified them as betas)- as exciting but potentially predatory. You are stronger, faster and more physically capable than her, and that's what she wants. She wants to be fucked by a tiger, not a housecat - you can't lay a finger on her, obviously, but when your lip curls and you growl in her face, she'll suddenly know that you could.

Finally, people are telling you to work out, but I feel the need to specify that you need to be working out to get STRONG. It's quite possible for someone on a fucking idiot cardiofag/curlbro program to never get strong, and you need to be stronger to demonstrate your mastery and have that air of danger. You need to be able to lift her off her feet casually.

Not knowing where you're at right now, here are some beginner programs.

Have an affair and make sure your wife finds out.

As a negotiator, I can tell you that the reason she did not react to your drastic revelations or threats in therapy is because she believes you will not follow through with them or if you do, it is of little consequence to her.

Her behavior strongly indicates that you lack any sort of leverage here.

Wait, wouldn't being a king make you alpha, I'm confused...

This may get downvoted, but the best thing you can do is start pursuing other women. You don't have to fuck them, but you definitely need to get back in the hunt if you want real self-confidence. Obviously be very discreet, but once you start seeing some success with other women your wife will sense it and jump all over your dick. Worst case scenario, you aren't a deer in headlights when the probable divorce comes about. YOU need to know, deep inside, that you can find other women, and that only comes from experience. That's my 2 cents. Good luck, hope everything works out, you seem like a solid guy in a shitty situation.

wow!!! i'm actually happy for you, it's not everyday a reddit beta is converted .......... but something seems ..... off

I agree with most of the posts here about continuing to better yourself, and although I also feel a divorce is in order, I'm gonna consider the conditions you wanna work with. First, start setting up time apart. Handle the stuff with your kid (time fun etc) but let it be just with him. Next, in your posts you note about her mental condition and it seems unstable; let her handle it. If she accepts, your counter-offer is that she pays her own dr but you'll support her emotionally. (dont invest in this, not even a dime) if she wants it, she'll fight for it. In my beta days I tried to put the relationship on my shoulders and the way that I got over it is I decided to create a moment of truth. There came a time where I just stopped rationalizing everyhing she did as a "sign" that she wants to make it work. What I did was I went right to forcing her to reveal her cards. In this case youd reveal how committed she is towards counseling. I think this would be the most intimidating moment for you because when you tell her your conditions for support, you'll see her answer. After that point you'll start to be free.

Welcome. My suggestion here is to read the contents of the sidebar and then start scrolling down and researching into what TRP is and what it isn't.

Most importantly, it will be best for you not to have any expectations of magical results and transformations. This is not an overnight process. This is not a quick fix. This will require more effort on your part than you're aware of at the moment and regardless of the amount of effort and commitment you put into TRP, your mileage may vary.

Can anyone see the OP's comments? For some reason they are all hidden from me. Is this some auto-mod trickery?

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You've read The Married Man Sex Life Primer, and it sounds to me like you're doing the MAP correctly. Follow the books advice, and don't do anything rash until you've finished the MAP. DO NOT just read the book ... DO it!

From what I've read, so far, things are working precisely as they should, and you're driving towards a Captain and First Mate situation. You've been taught, now act.

I stopped reading at "sex rank" for real you shouldn't rate yourself by a number ever, that's for insecure girls

mind blown

that. just. happened.

Fix your self. Lean toward a mgtow lifestyle. You wouldnt put up with some random asshole treating you like shit, why would you put up with someone who is supposed to be loving/caring treating you like shit?

The truth is, you want her.. but you dont NEED her. Make sure she knows that through your actions.. not your words. Silence is sometimes the best answer. Only put someone on the pedestal briefly if they deserve it. You have made her feel like she is entitled to be on your pedestal 24/7.

You need to be the leader of the relationship. Be stoic and confident. You are the one in charge of making sure things are equal and fair for both of you.. not her. If you dont do this, she will be leading and she is obvisously leading things in her direction without any concerns about you. She knows she can walk all over you, because you let her.

Remember... Being a good leader will command respect without asking for it.

Let this sink in.

1. This is your life, this may very well be your last day.

2. No one gives a shit about you. Including kids I am very sorry to say. If you think they do then ask for money from them or something that is unpleasant but will benefit only you.

3. You come first in your life. If you don't then you are letting someone else and their desires come first. Why not you?

She is not your only option. I don't mean that you should cheat, I don't mean that you should start gaming other women. I mean that being single is not a negative thing. Let it be known that she's not your only option to being happy with your life (if you call your current situation happy).

Do what you want to do. Does she want to go clothes shopping? That's fine, but she doesn't need you to go with her. Let her go shopping whilst you kick back with a beer and sports on TV, or go hiking, or work out, or read a book in the garden, or work on your car. Do what what the fuck you want, you work hard so you have the money to have the free time so you should enjoy it.

The first thing on your mind should be to make yourself happy. Luckily this normally makes family happy by proxy.

Once you have lost respect, It is nearly impossible to get it back.

Read No More Mr. Nice Guy by Dr. Robert Glover. That should definitely be a starting point for you.

Welcome friend. I hope you find what you seek.

My best advice to you is to do what you can to attract a lot of female attention, and make sure your fucking wife knows about about. Dont hide it. If other women are interested in you, it should light a fire up under her ass. Snap her out of the crazy mood swings and result in you getting some much deserved poontang..ya know, FROM YOUR FUCKING WIFE.

Be wary of her, do not trust her fully. She already engaged in in incredibly destructive and inappropriate behavior by "sexting" another man, It is entirely possible that relationship got physical. Run down all leads on that, keep any evidence you find in case a divorce lawyer needs it. And fuck what anyone else thinks, if your wife is sexting a man, you have all the justification in the world to dig through her shit. Fuck society and its silly bullshit about how that is wrong. She proved to you she cant be trusted, at this point, it is in you bet interest to cover your ass.

Keep moving in the right direction. Lead your wife. Lead your family. Take back control and never bend your frame. You are going to get a fuck ton of resistance due to the history of your relationship.

Be prepared for the scenario that you two are beyond repair, and act accordingly. I would suggest following through with seeing a lawyer and finding out what your options are.

I would strongly suggest that you read No More Mr Nice Guy.

There is excellent advice here on how women actually think and behave, but without the understanding of why you let her disregard your feelings you may get jaded with women in general. It's a quick read and I was shocked at how it described my earlier life to a T.

Your woman sounds depressed. You can filter all her shit through TRP if you want to, it sounds like you are taking the self help and personal boundary setting things seriously, which is important for any person in a relationship. Be careful in believing that "all women behave like x because they are women" bullshit that gets slung around here because a lot of this theory is applicable without it, psychology and sociology explain the same phenomenon.

I'm assuming that you are married because at one point love and lust were components of the relationship. The advice here that tells you to be expressive of your desires and what acceptable behaviors you will condone is good.

She seems to have become comfortable and developed a taste for that as a baseline. Considering your guys' issues, she is lacking the vitality to really consider things outside of herself. In this case TRP is a good fit because it attempts to align with non-cerebral values and assumes that all people are comfort/sex seeking creatures at their base. By increasing your personal value, you may wind up making her feel more desirous of pursuing you. The problem is, will she have the vitality to? Is she doing anything with her life that brings a source of real fulfillment to her? Women are humans too, and want some sort of success that they can have during their eulogy, perhaps encouraging her to pursue whatever dreams she talked about when you first flung your shit together will allow you to see better why she is being so selfish. Existential Funk hits us all, and under the luxury of the umbrella that you provided, it got into her real deep, and she needs to shock that shit out. It's not your job to un-depress her, but it is your job to take the reigns of your own life and jesus, sexuality.

Being alpha isn't about total selfishness, there is responsibility in there as well. High accountability and high support is what a leader in a family provides. There will be some punching back as you increase the accountability, hold your ground and it becomes easier. Understand the growing pains that this authoritative approach will cause, but don't fold. Eventually one develops comfort with asserting ones rights to pursue what they want out of life.

Throw in the towel brother. You have been beta forever and that is all she knows you as. She knows how to push you around and even if you act as if there will be consequences, she will keep pushing you like a child pushes their parent. I am divorced with 2 little kids, they are extremely happy as they get split time between the 2 of us. Move on, keep the relationship friendly with the (ex) wife, and get yourself a shitload of plates. Do not get married again. The end

After reading about you I don't think short of a divorce you can remedy your "marriage". You are married only on paper, you can't fix her only she can fix her you however can fix you.

Edit: You want to build but you're building on quicksand, sure you may find a pocket of stability for a while but you still built on quicksand, sooner or later you will sink and die. You have let this go too far, make the split amicable and get custody of your son and move on you are doomed otherwise.

I just want to congratulate you for taking the step and asking for help here.

As I see it, you have two choices at this point. You can either dump her (This is the best option. Think about it this way. Would you rather stick with the bitch, or would you rather go chase some hot 18 year old poon?) or you can employ dread game. If you are trying to salvage this situation, dread game is what you need. Now, from what you described, this may not help. If she truly doesn't care about you, dread game won't help. But what you need to do is get in shape, get your shit together, and start chatting up other women. You describing your wife as an 8 and you as a 6 (when in reality, it is probably the opposite) tells me you, despite the fact that she is fat, insane, and old, think that she is better than you.

Change that mindset. YOU are the alpha. YOU are the man. YOU are the leader. YOU are better than she is. SHE is lucky to have you, and unless she changes her attitude real quick, she WILL loose you.

You MUST be willing to walk away. That is the single most powerful tool in your arsenal.

My opinion is that you can't salvage this. Why? Because she checked out long ago. Odds are, she is fucking someone else. It is most likely hopeless. Dump her, and make the upgrade. She might even come crawling back to you when you get your shit in order.

Welcome to your new life. It's better out here.

Are you LDS by any chance? (Going off the "Utah / Prozac / no sex thing.)

It sounds like you're asserting yourself, which is exactly what you need to do. What you have to do from here is decide whether or not you want to keep her around. You don't have to make the decision now, you can see her capacity for change and decide later on if it is enough to you. (To me it seems like she may have decent capacity.)

As you assert yourself more and more, it is important to do two things.

1. Understand why you assert yourself and deal with feelings you have about it.

Not only are you doing the best thing for the both of you, you are airing your true feelings and being true to yourself. As a man, women want you to lead and you must lead. She will not, and this is another aspect of being true to yourself. (In fact, I can almost guarantee sight unseen that this is the cause of nearly ALL your marital problems. For her, you not leading means uncertainty, and therefore fear, and therefore unhappiness.) Deal with your own feelings of deserving the role of leader and understand that you are not being mean, you are taking care of people, that people are incredibly hungry for leadership, and that they can always just choose to not follow you.

2. Understand the tone your relationship must have if you are to continue with it.

Women and people in general simply cannot take extended negativity. She has responded as well as she has because it was you airing your true feelings and leading her with them. Negativity is not just the button you push to get her to act right. The coldest, most misogynistic sadist must still have positive or neutral emotions running through him nearly all of the time or have women run from him.

If you decide you want to have a relationship with your girl, you must come from the perspective that you really are together in this. This doesn't mean not having boundaries or not calling her on her shit, not at all. You must always continue to do that. This means understanding the reason why you do it is to manage a genuinely good relationship between the two of you.

If you decide you don't want that kind of relationship with her, or that it simply isn't possible, cut your losses and find a different girl.

Bonus-

Never stop reading and improving yourself. Don't do it for her or anyone else, do it for you.

You're looking at your relationship from a false dichotomy; either work things out with your wife or break it off and divorce. Truthfully, there may not be any option to reconcile with your wife. Your marriage already sounds like it's over, with you just going into death throes.

Stand up for yourself. You're a fucking man. You have boundaries, and limits. You set these boundaries up with the understanding that these boundaries will not be crossed, or else you will walk. If she is not even willing to work with you to give you your basic dignity, then she's already checked of the marriage. There is no marriage to save here -- she has already made the decision to be apart from you. How you be with someone who despises your character?

You need to start taking care of you. Don't let someone else decide whether or not you're allowed to be happy.

The only thing I'd recommend is completely ignoring her for a while. Consider MGTOW. I know it sounds crazy in a marriage, but it can be done. Work on yourself.

If she won't go with you to couples counseling and put in an honest effort, you need to let her go. Divorce isn't ideal for children but neither is having married parents who hate each other.

Advocatus diaboli here: her health issues might nullify the TRP advice. This is not the standard case when wife loses attraction to husband and he needs just to alpha up. OTOH her sexting implies that she is capable of feeling something, but not for husband.

Your wife's looks mean nothing to you if all she does is sit on her throne of misery ordering you around and sexting other men. You've GOT to take her off the pedestal and start being a man who respects himself.
If not I hope your son is learning what he shouldn't do with women from your example.