Profs say female STEM grades don’t reflect ‘perceived effort’ - they propose that “science educators could redistribute grades more akin to non-STEM disciplines to increase STEM retention.”
STEM Education done well is all about rewarding outcomes not effort. If you and your peer get the same answer but your peer gets it faster or with less effort that's called efficiency. That's what STEM done well is trying to teach.
female students believe they work harder than their male classmates for similar grades, indicating that "women's higher perceived effort levels are not rewarded."
On the other hand, praising effort produces better students than praising results.
Girls are just generally much easier to handle, more bookish and are less interested in physical activity.
The issue is that employers are looking at grades, rather than people, for office work which does not require physical activity.
Still, it is no surprise that a more feminised society doesn't cater well for boys.
Fathers, once again, you cannot afford to be absent. Your sons desperately need good role models and orientation away from being blue pilled failures. The harder part is that you may have to wait until they are 20 before you can be effective! Patience is key...
And yet, if the system were to reward them according to their perceived effort, it would go to their heads, spoil the fuck out of them, and they'd act like they know everything.
female students believe they work harder than their male classmates for similar grades
They very well might! Effort =/= results. Thats the concept that they're missing. Rather than playing to strengths, people sometimes put themselves into a position where they need to work exponentially harder than others for the same end. For some, that is a source of motivation. For others, its ammunition to complain about inequality. Efforts, while well and good, dont really put food on the table. Results do. This is not just in academia/grades, but across all industries. Find something you're good and and fucking crush it. If you have to work twice as hard as your peers for the same result, maybe thats not the field for you, or maybe you end up having an AHA moment and stuff starts to click all at once. But blaming those who are succeeding is a bit of a cop-out.
My college professor said it best. Some of you will work hours each night on homework and studying, go to every lecture and recitation, work in study groups, and still struggle to maintain passing grades. Others will show up only for tests and ace them all. That may seem unfair. Well. Life isn't fair. Sometimes you have to work harder than everyone else, and you'll still come up short. That's life. Learn it now, and it'll be easier to accept later.
Also takes them more effort to write their name in the snow. Maybe instead of complaining and having special accommodations, don't major in pee-writing
The "everyone has to go to college" rhetoric in education today feeds in to this. I knew at a young age that I couldn't keep up academically. There are other paths that you can take if you're a hard worker but don't quite have what it takes academically, and it would be nice if the school system accepted it. Ultimately, it is your responsibility though.
I'm going to use my friend as an example based on your comment. He tried college and dropped it because it wasn't for him.
Got a job at a chain restaurant as a cook. He also served as well because the place he worked at had shitty staff. So he did both.
Worked his way up to running his own store.
Hard work? Yup.
But he makes just as much if not more than most college grads at the age of 27 and he does not have the loans. He's already considered a district manager position.
It's not the most lucrative career, but it's proof that there are other paths out there and if you're good at it, it will pay off
Like how volleyball nets are lower for women, and golf has closer tees for women. Education programs could have different grade standards for women too
Efforts, while well and good, dont really put food on the table. Results do.
this is something women really have a hart time understanding. I've seen them complain about not getting praise for doing a job for 8 hours. except the job could have been done in 3, if they weren't fucking around and doing it the way they were supposed to. but try and explain that and they loose their shit.
Incorrect. You cannot educate iron into gold. It doesn’t matter how hard you try, it’s usually natural ability that makes you better at something than others.
The world is littered with failures who showed great promise and, as such, felt they never had to try. Society didn't reward them for trying and they never had to - until they failed for good
"I really, really, really worked very hard on that highway bridge engineering plan. OMG! All those people died when it failed. It couldn't have been my design, I tried very, very, very hard in college and got a B+ in all my classes! Its NOT MY FAULT!"
Said every curve-graded STEM graduate with a pussypass.
I don't want the affirmative action doctor operating on my mother.
I don't want the affirmative action pilot flying my plane.
And I don't want the affirmative action engineers designing my buildings, roads, and bridges.
Diversity is fine for beauty contests, advertising, modeling, entertainment, and other similarly unimportant shit. For the important stuff we need a pure meritocracy.
Ugh... That woman who bullshitted as if she were a lead designer of that collapsed Florida bridge. Once it fell, she made it loud and clear she had nothing to do with it.
She was literally taking credit for men's work right up until that day.
It's all fun and games until an engineering catastrophe kills a bunch of people. There's a reason why many scientific fields are so rigorous. There are lives at stake and minor mistakes can lead to big disasters.
I mean I've heard it from a friend who was talking with me about politics,
"I'm an engineer, if I believe in bullshit people will die, I have to live and work by facts or people will die. It's why I'm a conservative. I don't have an option to believe in bullshit."
Huh. Usually the people responsible for disasters like this are raked over the coals by the press, but the whole story seems to have died a quick and quiet death in the national media. None of the articles I read about it right after it happened mentioned the engineers being women either. Makes you go "Hmmm..."
They actually just blamed the few men in the company and business went on as usual. I've read that story from several sources. Most of the engineers were women. There were a few male laborers and managers, but that was it. The ended up being the ones getting raked over the coals in the media. Look it up if you don't believe me. But, in today's fucked up world, I don't think it's really that hard to believe.
Read it, the owners were male. They weren't the ones doing the building. That was the female engineers and construction workers who did that. The article contradicts itself. But, you have to scroll all the way to the bottom and they barely cover it. The board members were male, and so were the owners, they're five brothers. However, the vast majority of their engineers and workers are in fact female.
This entire thread is falsified. The study made no mention of ANY gender bias whatsoever in the abstract OR data. Jesus christ this entire sub has been infiltrated by incels and morons who CHOOSE not to read.
CEO who hires STEM professionals here. I was avoiding hiring women after #METOO, now I'll definitely be doing it since it sounds like their grades will likely be fabricated too.
I'm sorry, but most women do actually still WANT to be hirable, right?
I don't care about your feels. I care that you did the science and math correctly and got the right answer. It's important that your long history of getting the right answers gives me confidence that you did everything right to land the spacecraft on a comet.
This is simply robbing the stem corporations of highly skilled,highly intelligent workers... this will destroy the country... this has to be the doing of the russians or someone who wants to fuck u.s companies right up
This doesn't just pertain to females, though. As companies and learning institutions shoe horn unqualified people into positions and student slots in the name of diversity, your product's quality will suffer. The FAA is finding this same ailment in their ATC program.
I could only respect the fact that the professors involved are having this discussion to acknowledge the "problem" as a form of Machiavellianism. Other's have covered entitlement.
I feel the need to echo Milo by stating that more women aren't in STEM by choice.
Tests on STEM rewards knowledge, not effort. Knowledge.
Including, some people do well on tests without needing near as much effort as other people usually do, because they have knowledge. As tests rewards knowledge, these gifted people get to move upwards quickly. Knowledge.
Oh yeah, we can not afford to have engineers getting graded just because of "effort" whatever gender this person identifies as. Else, there will be planes, bridges and skyscrapers falling on us as result.
They should realize that degrees as well as salaries aren't a reflection of how hard you work by itself. It's how hard you work multiplied by your utility. Women may work harder, but they have less utility in STEM fields. Something about being less logical, idk...
Hmmm. Combine this discussion with the grade inflation of high schools that in some major cities produce less than 20% of students unable to demonstrate proficiency in math and english and then see how it turns out for all of us.
Just seems that equal opportunity is still the best target, understanding it does not produce equal outcomes.
Nature doesn't care how hard you work. It's only in an overly maternal society that people start caring about your effort, let alone your self perceived effort. Nature cares about results.
If you want to destroy our society then feminize STEM. The more patriarchal societies will pull ahead.
This isn't a matter of "men smart, women dumb". It's just the simple fact that the values women have are of a nurturing quality so that they can raise babies to be good children. The values men have are to teach children to be adults who live in our cold reality. STEM isn't about feelings and as soon as it is it ceases to be STEM and turns into a daycare.
see, this is when planes start falling out of the sky and people get killed for not receiving the correct meds. it's all well in good when your degree in feminist dance theory gets you nothing but a job at starbucks, but when lives actually depend on you knowing wtf you're talking about, it's time to put away the kid gloves.
Well yeah, it will fly in STEM for awhile, in the sense that other people will be there to bail out the underqualified princess who is the face of the project. In practice diversity hiring acts like an income tax on everyone else: you do more work, and some of the output of it (both money and accolades) go to the tokens.
Working on my masters in mechanical engineering and I can totally confirm this. My female colleges in my engineering classes (like all 3 of then) are very reliant on others or the internet to pass and it's super obvious to the rest of us.
Thoughtful take: Why should anyone’s “perceived efforts” ever be rewarded. Why should we ever value effort? IDGAF how hard you try, only about results. The more you can accomplish per unit of effort the better. We should reward smart and effective efforts that lead to success. Effort has no value in and of itself.
Snarky take: I’m sure I’ll only be in a “perceived” plane crash when the engine fan blade separates due to “perceived” shitty engineering done by someone who “perceives” their effort as good enough.
In other news, a study shows that more women would become airline pilots if grades on their licensing tests reflected their perceived effort to learn how to fly a plane.
Wow, how could these women be thinking straight when they are providing the answer with their own statement ?
They have to worker harder to barely even get the same results as dudes - HELLO!
Here we go. Once you allow women into your institution they will erode it until it no longer has any value. On a micro scale we see this with individual things like academia, the military, and corporations. On a macro scale we see that allowing women into the body-politic erodes the entire fabric of the civilization. Men are civilization. It is a system created by men to distribute pussy evenly so that there is social tranquility. Women were always just along for the ride. Once the west decided that women could be part of the decision making process, it signed its own death warrant.
An individual with Down’s syndrome will have to work harder then most, but would likely not get the grades required to pass a STEM related course.
Do we reward that individuals perceived effort with a degree in structural engineering?
Not saying it’s entirely comparable, but rewarding people who are not capable of making the grade in a highly competitive and highly technical field results in buildings that tip over, planes that fall out of the sky, and biotech companies that create homeopathic vaccines.
if they work harder to receive similar grades, doesn't that imply lesser competency? most tests in STEM courses are anonymous, a fill in the bubble exam graded by a machine. so unless the machines were programmed to be sexist...
i don't think women are less competent - just pointing out how this was not thought through
If. But how would they know? Do they follow the guys home? Do they look at their past academic career? Not everyone who shows up to college, comes with the same core competencies even if they took the same classes. There are a lot of people who pass a class with A's but never truly absorbed the material longterm, they were just good at cramming or got all the bonus point and other bullshit some teachers hand out.
I remember a female engineering student writing up her experience, and after 2 semesters asking how the guys do it so casually compared to her effort, and they told her how much they actually study and she was "OMG!" and hadn't considered it before. Because she was out weekends while they're life was school with only a few hours downtime each week.
Not really. It's not that women work harder to receive similar grades, but that they "perceive" that they work harder while receiving similar grades in the aftermath. For example, I thought I was studying average during my undergrad days, but I'd score as well as my friend's gf who thought she was the most diligent student. She had a reputation of being a bookworm but once I got to know her, I realized she was studying just as hard as anyone else. It's all perception.
EDIT: And most tests in STEM courses aren't anonymous, especially in a "small university in the midwest". Everything you take is recorded for the books.
That's not true for stem courses. Engineering in particular is about problem solving, so for a given problem there are plenty of ways of finding an answer. This means that most test in my experience we're open ended and graded by ta's.
It really does depend on the subject. My earlier classes involved massive amounts of people and a lot of memorization so professors had to rely on multiple choice. But my later classes were more about applying that knowledge to the bigger picture and had class sizes as small as 12 (versus 50-200) so multiple choice tests were not ideal, and didn't allow for partial credit.
You just have to memorize so much for bio and chem that you never really have to move past the memorization, versus something like mechanical engineering where everything is basically some derivative of momentum, material science, or thermodynamics.
At my job, all the women have their heads buried in their cell phones all day while me and the other guys have our heads buried in our work. That's how I know I work harder than the women.
The same goes for university libraries, there was a recent thread about this topic. There are men and women who go to the library in order to learn and get things done. However, most women go there in groups in order learn hard for classes or upcoming exams by drinking coffee, buying shoes online, chatting on FB or Whatsapp. Most men go there alone in order to actually fucking learn and get things done.
Men may be addicted to porn and gaming but women are addicted to smartphones and validation.
On a related note, my experience teaching STEM at a major university in the United States (described down in the comments) was that many of the people in those departments these days don't have any business teaching anyone. Many of them don't understand the point of education is to teach people how to think, not what to think.
The bias is rampant, Orwellian though-speak, Harrison Bergeron type attempts at "equality of outcomes" ... is even starting to creep into traditional STEM fields.
Did anyone here see the paper posted a few days ago that said female students receive significantly higher grades from female middle school teachers than boys did. And that the female students believed that they would be getting higher grades from male teachers, that they didn't get, which was then perceived as male sexism.
This appears to me to be just more of that. These female students think that the male professors aren't grading them high enough, and it must be because "muh patriarchy" and definitely not because they haven't earned higher grades.
How is this even possible? For my education you answered your questions, got graded against a markscheme, and your grade was determined by where your total marks sat in a grade boundary which applied to everyone taking the test. I just don’t understand how there can even be an opportunity for sexism and privilege to affect given grades.
Grades for essays and other subjective pieces of work could vary wildly though. I remember letting a kid copy my essay early in high-school.
He got 13/20 (65%) & I got 19/20 (95%). Different teachers & he was an absolute nuisance in class. Not surprising at all that other forms of bias exist.
Stem however, leaves much less room for interpretation. Math classes, you either have the answer or don't. Same with chemistry, engineering, biology... these aren't creative arts, they are results based. The grades aren't based on the work put in, it's pretty results, and if women in stem aren't keeping up, it's not the professors' fault.
I can't speak for the sciences, but as someone who studied Economics (which could be seen as quite black & white), there were huge, subjectively graded components.
I've had some professors (men and women) interject themselves in biology and psychology courses, including far to much subjective grading into their syllabus, mostly through projects/papers. In terms of biology courses, I experienced this in a conservation course and an intro to biological engineering course.
That's not quiet true. I can't speak for chemistry, or biology, but for computer science (software engineering) there are instances of bias. For example if you write code in a similar style to whoever is going to mark it, then you might get a few brownie points (subconsciously) from the marker. Another example would be making a software without any libraries (doing everything yourself), it could give you extra brownie points, or it could subtract, depending on who's marking.
A more interesting example would be parallelism. A parallelised software could work fine for a long time, but one day it can go kaput. So a "does it work?" measurement doesn't work here for sure.
In an engineering class, I had a female TA give me a poor grade on a CAD drawing I made. I made it in full orthographic projection, with every dimension neatly, properly placed in a way that could have been given to a machinist and they could make the part. She marked me down, because I "didn't have a 3d model." The female students from my study group got full credit for modeling a much less complex part and not dimensioning anything. I had to go over her head to the professor on that one - in the industry, no one uses dimensionless 3d models. The arbitrary, subjective nature of a lot of the assignments in that class really rubbed me the wrong way.
Are the ladies at the female owned engineering company who built the collapsed bridge in Florida the ones who had their grades redistributed? Who cares if they put in effort? Is their work right? That's the important point.
i feel like females got this delusional view because statistics keep saying 70% of uni graduates are women, without mentioning what studies they majored in. besides that is also the difference that we have testosterone, even if males drop out, chances are they're still gonna be earning more by starting own bussinesses etc. i mean grades and degrees are not a free pass to success. testosterone gives us more drive to be agressive and competitive and to be very motivated.
And yet this creature is your "fiancé"? You're going to sign up for a lifetime with her? Care to explain to your brothers here just what your thinking is with this plan???
I'm thinking "Finish my degree, and bail." Thats what I am thinking. This degree is my primary focus right now anyway, so, its not as if I have tons of free time I could be using for other stuff.
Once its done, I will be more than happy to upset the apple cart.
Splitting up financial intertwining peacefully, and simply focusing on the degree. I need this degree for job advancement, and while I am doing it, I am not going to have much of a life anyway. So why not just get it over with before rocking the boat.
FWIW, I was in a similar boat, but am perfectly fine despite breaking up with my ex towards the end of spring semester. It is important to value your time and spend it well.
Make sure that the relationship is not causing undue stress or unhappiness, that it is not limiting your potential. If it is, you are better to let it go and reclaim your life.
When a female engineers bridge collapses and kills a bunch of people. Are they just going to say... Well, she tried so hard when she was building it though, so you can't be mad????
That's typical for the female mindset. They want to be minimally invested so they can claim a full share. "I'll carry the trowell, you carry the ten 50lb bags of cement, and together we'll get everything set up!"
I've found my self listening attentively to pre-pubescent boys on technical issues more than once. Latest one was a niche collectible scale metal cars. Boy, did that kid know about how to tell a 20$ model from a 200$ model!
women's higher perceived effort levels are not rewarded
perceived effort levels
It just doesn't get any better than this now does it?
Take note it doesn't say 'STEM grades don't reflect actual effort'. It is perceived effort. The study shows women aren't actually working as hard, or harder, than their male colleagues. In other words, women think that McNerd or Chadlogger just stroll into class, work less hard, and do as good or better when it is not reality, and we apparently need to changing grading practices to reflect this.
It would actually be more acceptable in my opinion if it found women actually work as hard as men, but are just not as good at the old maths and logical reasoning things, and in an effort to make up for that they get a bump. That would still be shit, don't get me wrong, but accommodating perceived work ethic differences is substantially worse - it's validating delusion, not reality.
But let's set aside the white knighting and 'strong independent womyn' who performed the study for a moment, and think of the subjects - the women.
Are any of us surprised by this? I'm sure as fuck not. The vast majority of women I've dated perceive working as hard as I do, and I'm sure I'm not unique. This is what drives women who work at the fucking DMV or a receptionist to demand their engineer/lawyer/doctor/entrepreneur husband to 'do half' the house work because 'I work hard too, you shitlord'. It's delusional - they are not able to think rationally in any sense of the word when it comes to this.
My advice- I actually counter this now by dating 'down' for plates when we are talking relative occupations - way down. Waitresses, hairdressers, basic occupations really. Most of these women are so in awe of what I do because it carries so much more responsibility than theirs than you get less of this shit. Plus, they tend to be hotter and more pleasant all around in my experience.
This is solipsism at its finest. These chicks are in the same classes, same study groups, labs, etc., as the guys. Its right in front of their faces. Sure, there is some proportion of stoic Laws of Power guys, but not a statistically significant amount.
These chicks are just thinking I worked really hard, and boo-hoo me, and they're not even thinking about how hard the other guys are working relative to them. It doesn't enter their thought process to assess this relativity.
That article cherry-picked the hell out of the study. Did you bother to read it? They didn't separate most things out by gender, and they didn't recommend redistributing grades more akin to non-STEM disciplines, they just mentioned that someone else has suggested that. A single sentence, about someone else's idea, buried in the discussion. Finally, in that comment where they mention that, there was no mention of gender and that section wasn't about gender; that was a comment about the effect of grades on motivation in the entire study population, men and women included.
Check your sources. You should be embarrassed for repeated cherry-picked and misleading drivel.
I was programming in the computer lab once and then a bunch of female liberal arts majors came in. They had a talk on "Females in Stem." I shit you not, one of them complained that if she was "exposed" to STEM as a kid she might have majored in comp sci instead of Ethnic Studies.....I was never exposed to programming or math past algebra...I just signed up for the classes LMFAO.
The entitlement and victimhood mentality where nothing is their fault is unreal. Just take responsibility for your actions and try it out...or just admit that you didn't want to have to go through all of the painful classes...don't blame "not being exposed".
This is nothing to laugh at, female students at math exam in Oxford university were given extra 10 minutes of time to help them get their grades up. Slowly but surely man are being pushed to the bottom at every part of life.
Fairly sure everyone got extra time, but the motivation was to help women get top grades. By all accounts it only helped those at the bottom get slightly better results.
Not quite, but the same effect. Men were getting higher grades, but they were more likely to work faster and finish earlier than women. So they gave everyone more time, which disproportionately helps those who do not have as good of a grasp of the subject matter (women). And the whole intent was entirely to give women a boost.
Oh, Freddy Fast finished the exam early because he actually knows what he's doing? Well fuck him we're going to give Suzie Slow all the time in the world, and even though Suzie can't count past ten unless she's wearing sandals we'll do our damndest to make sure they end up with the same score.
This is fake news for sure, did you read the other link where 'professors' want to redefine physics because of white male privilege? Apprently 'the laws of nature' imply a male law maker indicative of the white patriarchy. I kid you not. This either a troll site or spoof.
It's definitely fake news: the linked article cherry-picked the study and misrepresents it's findings. The grade-motivational effect was reported independent of gender. They didn't suggest changing grading practices, they cited that someone else has suggested that. Finally, the people who did suggest that showed that rates of continuation in the field were more affected by grade in men than women. This isn't suggesting we prop up women in science. The linked article is shit and the title misrepresents the findings.
The bridge you're designing doesn't care how hard you worked on the project, or the personal hurdles you overcame. It only cares if the physics of the loads and stresses are adequately dealt with... so the bridge won't collapse. Grading on a curve may be appropriate in entirely subjective academic fields, like Lesbian Dance Theory, or even Comparative Literature, but not in STEM fields.
Your_Coke_Dealer 5y ago
That’s all I needed to see here
killabeesindafront 5y ago
In my med school orientation, ~90% of the presenters were female. Notable exceptions include the intramural sports guy and the cop.
chalbersma 5y ago
STEM Education done well is all about rewarding outcomes not effort. If you and your peer get the same answer but your peer gets it faster or with less effort that's called efficiency. That's what STEM done well is trying to teach.
lonelystar82 5y ago
female students believe they work harder than their male classmates for similar grades, indicating that "women's higher perceived effort levels are not rewarded."
entitlement
Hillarysdilddo_2016 5y ago
The salient point is they are admitting they are literally dumber than their male cohorts.
Lol
They put in more effort for the same result. That means they're dumber.
djh860 5y ago
It’s a proven fact that people tend to over estimate their abilities, this is no different.
lipidsly 5y ago
Remember this when someone tells you the system is unfair.
Sure, it could be unfair to you or it could be people are better than you.
No, no it couldnt be that. Because were all equal.
NormalAndy 5y ago
On the other hand, praising effort produces better students than praising results.
Girls are just generally much easier to handle, more bookish and are less interested in physical activity.
The issue is that employers are looking at grades, rather than people, for office work which does not require physical activity.
Still, it is no surprise that a more feminised society doesn't cater well for boys.
Fathers, once again, you cannot afford to be absent. Your sons desperately need good role models and orientation away from being blue pilled failures. The harder part is that you may have to wait until they are 20 before you can be effective! Patience is key...
Bestoftherest222 5y ago
This is akin to a 400 pound female crying why she isn't 110 pounds when she "puts in the effort." Honey the effort is the result.
AlfredKinsey 5y ago
Or a scabies tramp complaining that she can't find a good man to marry her.
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[deleted] 5y ago
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moonlandings 5y ago
They're talking about STEM. more or less right/wrong questions. There's no feedback other than whether you were right or wrong.
Dravous 5y ago
have you taken a look around lately?
NormalAndy 5y ago
The issue is big institutions who find it convenient to filter society by grades rather than getting to know them.
I get the point but it means that many good people miss out because they don't fit the mould.
[deleted] 5y ago
Agreed. The system you propose is simply improved.
Zanford 5y ago
their lack of self awareness is astounding
"We have to work harder to get the same results. That proves we are actually better "
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[deleted] 5y ago
Results - Effort = Efficiency.
AlfredKinsey 5y ago
You summarized a two-paragraph comment I'd been drafting.
Galbert123 5y ago
They very well might! Effort =/= results. Thats the concept that they're missing. Rather than playing to strengths, people sometimes put themselves into a position where they need to work exponentially harder than others for the same end. For some, that is a source of motivation. For others, its ammunition to complain about inequality. Efforts, while well and good, dont really put food on the table. Results do. This is not just in academia/grades, but across all industries. Find something you're good and and fucking crush it. If you have to work twice as hard as your peers for the same result, maybe thats not the field for you, or maybe you end up having an AHA moment and stuff starts to click all at once. But blaming those who are succeeding is a bit of a cop-out.
ohyeawellyousuck 5y ago
My college professor said it best. Some of you will work hours each night on homework and studying, go to every lecture and recitation, work in study groups, and still struggle to maintain passing grades. Others will show up only for tests and ace them all. That may seem unfair. Well. Life isn't fair. Sometimes you have to work harder than everyone else, and you'll still come up short. That's life. Learn it now, and it'll be easier to accept later.
well-ok-then 5y ago
Also takes them more effort to write their name in the snow. Maybe instead of complaining and having special accommodations, don't major in pee-writing
Retaliate1st 5y ago
A fish would go its entire life thinking it’s retarded, if it only tried to climb trees.
majaka1234 5y ago
And would starve to death if it decided leaves were tastier than kelp.
whatever9855 5y ago
The "everyone has to go to college" rhetoric in education today feeds in to this. I knew at a young age that I couldn't keep up academically. There are other paths that you can take if you're a hard worker but don't quite have what it takes academically, and it would be nice if the school system accepted it. Ultimately, it is your responsibility though.
askmrcia 5y ago
I'm going to use my friend as an example based on your comment. He tried college and dropped it because it wasn't for him.
Got a job at a chain restaurant as a cook. He also served as well because the place he worked at had shitty staff. So he did both.
Worked his way up to running his own store.
Hard work? Yup.
But he makes just as much if not more than most college grads at the age of 27 and he does not have the loans. He's already considered a district manager position.
It's not the most lucrative career, but it's proof that there are other paths out there and if you're good at it, it will pay off
beathelas 5y ago
Like how volleyball nets are lower for women, and golf has closer tees for women. Education programs could have different grade standards for women too
Galbert123 5y ago
Those examples are women competing against women. Education is coed. I kinda see your point but I kinda don’t think it applies.
Atolla2 5y ago
Same with sports being adjusted for children
Dravous 5y ago
this is something women really have a hart time understanding. I've seen them complain about not getting praise for doing a job for 8 hours. except the job could have been done in 3, if they weren't fucking around and doing it the way they were supposed to. but try and explain that and they loose their shit.
NormalAndy 5y ago
There's no argument if you have evidence they are wasting time in the job.
That's why you praise effort - so nobody feels like getting away with slacking off is a virtue, as long as you get the job done in the end.
Effort and work ethic are the keys to success
TheNextMilo 5y ago
Incorrect. You cannot educate iron into gold. It doesn’t matter how hard you try, it’s usually natural ability that makes you better at something than others.
NormalAndy 5y ago
The world is littered with failures who showed great promise and, as such, felt they never had to try. Society didn't reward them for trying and they never had to - until they failed for good
128bitworm 5y ago
Success means results. Effort and work without expected and timely results are not a sign of good work ethic.
NormalAndy 5y ago
Well as you may one day find out, the process really is the reward.
Fail 9 times, stand up 10.
128bitworm 5y ago
Thomas Edison said it best..."I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
Yes, the process is the reward. But, in the end, the result is what we are looking for.
Ill_Will7 5y ago
"Don't reflect perceived effort?"
My perceived effort of working hard makes me believe I should be a billionaire.
Please refer me to the department of free money for crying like a itchbay
Balls_so_hard 5y ago
I carry a note book with me and keep my head down when walking around the office to encourage people to perceive me as higher effort than I am.
myfault93 5y ago
Just identify as a billionaire and sue the banks for not having your money.
Ill_Will7 5y ago
not bad. Will call my lawyer and see what my options are.
Got to get paid.
Without working for it of course.
VasiliyZaitzev 5y ago
The title of the article should be updated to “self-perceived” effort.
It’s a version of “Lake Wobegon” Syndrome - where all the women are strong, the men are good-looking and all the children are above average.
MoDuReddit 5y ago
Thank you for the unknown reference (to me).
U_Lika_Da_Tomato 5y ago
Prairie Home Companion. It's a radio program from npr, if you're still unaware.
reluctantly_red 5y ago
Was a radio program -- the host got me too'd.
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newName543456 5y ago
Meanwhile women don't reward effort men put in bettering themselves, only want the final product.
Banned-in-Boston 5y ago
"I really, really, really worked very hard on that highway bridge engineering plan. OMG! All those people died when it failed. It couldn't have been my design, I tried very, very, very hard in college and got a B+ in all my classes! Its NOT MY FAULT!"
Said every curve-graded STEM graduate with a pussypass.
redpillbanana 5y ago
Plenty of people forget this point.
I don't want the affirmative action doctor operating on my mother.
I don't want the affirmative action pilot flying my plane.
And I don't want the affirmative action engineers designing my buildings, roads, and bridges.
Diversity is fine for beauty contests, advertising, modeling, entertainment, and other similarly unimportant shit. For the important stuff we need a pure meritocracy.
StinkyDiaper 5y ago
Ugh... That woman who bullshitted as if she were a lead designer of that collapsed Florida bridge. Once it fell, she made it loud and clear she had nothing to do with it.
She was literally taking credit for men's work right up until that day.
Not_One_PieceOfTrash 5y ago
"Said every curve-graded STEM graduate with a pussypass."
Hold on while i clean off my monitor from spitting out water all over them from laughing...
zamtrivedi 5y ago
Exactly what I was thinking, wtf is going on with people
lorum_ipsum_dolor 5y ago
It's all fun and games until an engineering catastrophe kills a bunch of people. There's a reason why many scientific fields are so rigorous. There are lives at stake and minor mistakes can lead to big disasters.
McDrMuffinMan 5y ago
I mean I've heard it from a friend who was talking with me about politics,
"I'm an engineer, if I believe in bullshit people will die, I have to live and work by facts or people will die. It's why I'm a conservative. I don't have an option to believe in bullshit."
Not_One_PieceOfTrash 5y ago
thats what makes physics so nice, gravity doesn't give a shit about your feelings
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Toastermaface 5y ago
cough the pedestrian bridge in Miami cough
LandoChronus 5y ago
The best part was she still felt she was being a strong female role model for her daughter.
Her failure was irrelevant, the fact that she as a woman became an engineer was success to her.
Swan_in_a_Cage 5y ago
How many women are involved? I recall it was mostly women
Not_One_PieceOfTrash 5y ago
http://sandrarose.com/2018/03/diversity-fail-women-engineering-team-behind-collapse-miami-pedestrian-bridge/
2comment 5y ago
At least the victims were diverse.
Not_One_PieceOfTrash 5y ago
yup diversity makes it perfectly balanced
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Ivan_The_Reddish 5y ago
Huh. Usually the people responsible for disasters like this are raked over the coals by the press, but the whole story seems to have died a quick and quiet death in the national media. None of the articles I read about it right after it happened mentioned the engineers being women either. Makes you go "Hmmm..."
Not_One_PieceOfTrash 5y ago
Yeah... probably cuz the political climate right now doesn't allow that sort of questioning?
grandmasbroach 5y ago
They actually just blamed the few men in the company and business went on as usual. I've read that story from several sources. Most of the engineers were women. There were a few male laborers and managers, but that was it. The ended up being the ones getting raked over the coals in the media. Look it up if you don't believe me. But, in today's fucked up world, I don't think it's really that hard to believe.
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Balls_so_hard 5y ago
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/was-all-female-responsible-bridge-collapse/
grandmasbroach 5y ago
Read it, the owners were male. They weren't the ones doing the building. That was the female engineers and construction workers who did that. The article contradicts itself. But, you have to scroll all the way to the bottom and they barely cover it. The board members were male, and so were the owners, they're five brothers. However, the vast majority of their engineers and workers are in fact female.
majaka1234 5y ago
Snopes purposely editorialising their fact checking?
Say it ain't so!
/s
ntvirtue 5y ago
You are using snopes as a fact checker?
Balls_so_hard 5y ago
Adding context. The article posted is misleading.
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Even_the_Yuenglings 5y ago
This entire thread is falsified. The study made no mention of ANY gender bias whatsoever in the abstract OR data. Jesus christ this entire sub has been infiltrated by incels and morons who CHOOSE not to read.
MattyAnon Admin 5y ago
Have heard this from women before, in one particular example it was "I have to work FOUR times harder than the men doing the same job as me".
In other words, she believed that men could do their job in 10 hours and she had to work 40.
ISaidThatOnPurpose 5y ago
Are women saying they are less capable in this??
bookloverphile 5y ago
Well duh professors say that. They wanna keep their fucking jobs.
Original_Username7 5y ago
CEO who hires STEM professionals here. I was avoiding hiring women after #METOO, now I'll definitely be doing it since it sounds like their grades will likely be fabricated too.
I'm sorry, but most women do actually still WANT to be hirable, right?
Diabloist337 5y ago
Man : 2 + 2 = 4
Scored 2 out of 5 because of Male Privilege
Woman : 2 + 2 = "I feel sad because I dreamed about a red flower"
Scored 5 out of 5 because of Perceived Effort.
Makes sense.
FlyingSexistPig 5y ago
I don't care about your feels. I care that you did the science and math correctly and got the right answer. It's important that your long history of getting the right answers gives me confidence that you did everything right to land the spacecraft on a comet.
[deleted] 5y ago
This is simply robbing the stem corporations of highly skilled,highly intelligent workers... this will destroy the country... this has to be the doing of the russians or someone who wants to fuck u.s companies right up
rossiFan 5y ago
This doesn't just pertain to females, though. As companies and learning institutions shoe horn unqualified people into positions and student slots in the name of diversity, your product's quality will suffer. The FAA is finding this same ailment in their ATC program.
Ezaar 5y ago
You get fisted evenly, irrespective of gender in the STEM
Chitlinsandgravy 5y ago
I could only respect the fact that the professors involved are having this discussion to acknowledge the "problem" as a form of Machiavellianism. Other's have covered entitlement.
I feel the need to echo Milo by stating that more women aren't in STEM by choice.
PithyPneumothorax 5y ago
“This is John Galt speaking...”
francisco_DANKonia 5y ago
effort is great and all but it's completely worthless if you still suck
idontdrinkvodka 5y ago
What the hell.
Tests on STEM rewards knowledge, not effort. Knowledge.
Including, some people do well on tests without needing near as much effort as other people usually do, because they have knowledge. As tests rewards knowledge, these gifted people get to move upwards quickly. Knowledge.
Oh yeah, we can not afford to have engineers getting graded just because of "effort" whatever gender this person identifies as. Else, there will be planes, bridges and skyscrapers falling on us as result.
c_w_o_o_l_l_y 5y ago
They should realize that degrees as well as salaries aren't a reflection of how hard you work by itself. It's how hard you work multiplied by your utility. Women may work harder, but they have less utility in STEM fields. Something about being less logical, idk...
SILENTSAM69 5y ago
Those who can get better grades with less effort deserve the highest grades. Those who struggle to achieve should not be rewarded.
FOldGG 5y ago
Hmmm. Combine this discussion with the grade inflation of high schools that in some major cities produce less than 20% of students unable to demonstrate proficiency in math and english and then see how it turns out for all of us.
Just seems that equal opportunity is still the best target, understanding it does not produce equal outcomes.
[deleted] 5y ago
Nature doesn't care how hard you work. It's only in an overly maternal society that people start caring about your effort, let alone your self perceived effort. Nature cares about results.
If you want to destroy our society then feminize STEM. The more patriarchal societies will pull ahead.
This isn't a matter of "men smart, women dumb". It's just the simple fact that the values women have are of a nurturing quality so that they can raise babies to be good children. The values men have are to teach children to be adults who live in our cold reality. STEM isn't about feelings and as soon as it is it ceases to be STEM and turns into a daycare.
binrobinro 5y ago
If someone's splicing my genes for me, I don't give a shit about their "sense of self-efficacy". I just want it done right.
thetotalpackage7 5y ago
Ever notice the hoops that crazy libtards jump through to explain the obvious?
Dravous 5y ago
see, this is when planes start falling out of the sky and people get killed for not receiving the correct meds. it's all well in good when your degree in feminist dance theory gets you nothing but a job at starbucks, but when lives actually depend on you knowing wtf you're talking about, it's time to put away the kid gloves.
sjdfhskdjfh 5y ago
I definitely want them designing the airplanes I ride in
RPLawyer 5y ago
My perceived level of effort means that my boss should pay me more than other employees. Do I get that or do I need to a pussy ?
Zanford 5y ago
I like how they inadvertently admit that non-STEM grades are bullshit and based on 'perceived effort'
That won't fly in STEM. "Yeah the bridge collapsed and killed people, but we worked really hard on it!!"
AlfredKinsey 5y ago
You underestimate mankind's stupidity, greed, and fear.
Zanford 5y ago
Well yeah, it will fly in STEM for awhile, in the sense that other people will be there to bail out the underqualified princess who is the face of the project. In practice diversity hiring acts like an income tax on everyone else: you do more work, and some of the output of it (both money and accolades) go to the tokens.
crqze7 5y ago
Working on my masters in mechanical engineering and I can totally confirm this. My female colleges in my engineering classes (like all 3 of then) are very reliant on others or the internet to pass and it's super obvious to the rest of us.
Press2ForEnglish 5y ago
Liberalism is a cancer that kills everything it touches. If you don't remove it at the cellular level it will spread to your area eventually.
Ignoring it won't stop it from spreading.
everydaythrowaway75 5y ago
Two quick takes:
Thoughtful take: Why should anyone’s “perceived efforts” ever be rewarded. Why should we ever value effort? IDGAF how hard you try, only about results. The more you can accomplish per unit of effort the better. We should reward smart and effective efforts that lead to success. Effort has no value in and of itself.
Snarky take: I’m sure I’ll only be in a “perceived” plane crash when the engine fan blade separates due to “perceived” shitty engineering done by someone who “perceives” their effort as good enough.
pbar 5y ago
In other news, a study shows that more women would become airline pilots if grades on their licensing tests reflected their perceived effort to learn how to fly a plane.
Zirealeredin 5y ago
Jesus Christ we are in trouble
Nov51605 5y ago
Wow, how could these women be thinking straight when they are providing the answer with their own statement ?
They have to worker harder to barely even get the same results as dudes - HELLO!
[deleted] 5y ago
Here we go. Once you allow women into your institution they will erode it until it no longer has any value. On a micro scale we see this with individual things like academia, the military, and corporations. On a macro scale we see that allowing women into the body-politic erodes the entire fabric of the civilization. Men are civilization. It is a system created by men to distribute pussy evenly so that there is social tranquility. Women were always just along for the ride. Once the west decided that women could be part of the decision making process, it signed its own death warrant.
usku 5y ago
An individual with Down’s syndrome will have to work harder then most, but would likely not get the grades required to pass a STEM related course.
Do we reward that individuals perceived effort with a degree in structural engineering?
Not saying it’s entirely comparable, but rewarding people who are not capable of making the grade in a highly competitive and highly technical field results in buildings that tip over, planes that fall out of the sky, and biotech companies that create homeopathic vaccines.
kremer5 5y ago
if they work harder to receive similar grades, doesn't that imply lesser competency? most tests in STEM courses are anonymous, a fill in the bubble exam graded by a machine. so unless the machines were programmed to be sexist...
i don't think women are less competent - just pointing out how this was not thought through
2comment 5y ago
If. But how would they know? Do they follow the guys home? Do they look at their past academic career? Not everyone who shows up to college, comes with the same core competencies even if they took the same classes. There are a lot of people who pass a class with A's but never truly absorbed the material longterm, they were just good at cramming or got all the bonus point and other bullshit some teachers hand out.
I remember a female engineering student writing up her experience, and after 2 semesters asking how the guys do it so casually compared to her effort, and they told her how much they actually study and she was "OMG!" and hadn't considered it before. Because she was out weekends while they're life was school with only a few hours downtime each week.
FlyingSexistPig 5y ago
I was going to agree. I want the person who can do the pythagorean formula in their head, not one who takes an hour to do it.
anono_throwaway 5y ago
Not really. It's not that women work harder to receive similar grades, but that they "perceive" that they work harder while receiving similar grades in the aftermath. For example, I thought I was studying average during my undergrad days, but I'd score as well as my friend's gf who thought she was the most diligent student. She had a reputation of being a bookworm but once I got to know her, I realized she was studying just as hard as anyone else. It's all perception.
EDIT: And most tests in STEM courses aren't anonymous, especially in a "small university in the midwest". Everything you take is recorded for the books.
Matt_Snypes 5y ago
That's not true for stem courses. Engineering in particular is about problem solving, so for a given problem there are plenty of ways of finding an answer. This means that most test in my experience we're open ended and graded by ta's.
kremer5 5y ago
i misspoke about math/eng. most of my chem/bio courses were multiple choice exams
Matt_Snypes 5y ago
It really does depend on the subject. My earlier classes involved massive amounts of people and a lot of memorization so professors had to rely on multiple choice. But my later classes were more about applying that knowledge to the bigger picture and had class sizes as small as 12 (versus 50-200) so multiple choice tests were not ideal, and didn't allow for partial credit.
You just have to memorize so much for bio and chem that you never really have to move past the memorization, versus something like mechanical engineering where everything is basically some derivative of momentum, material science, or thermodynamics.
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Lazysaurus 5y ago
At my job, all the women have their heads buried in their cell phones all day while me and the other guys have our heads buried in our work. That's how I know I work harder than the women.
Wabbajak 5y ago
The same goes for university libraries, there was a recent thread about this topic. There are men and women who go to the library in order to learn and get things done. However, most women go there in groups in order learn hard for classes or upcoming exams by drinking coffee, buying shoes online, chatting on FB or Whatsapp. Most men go there alone in order to actually fucking learn and get things done.
Men may be addicted to porn and gaming but women are addicted to smartphones and validation.
McDrMuffinMan 5y ago
Welfarism... But in schools, oh how the social left is hell bent on destroying everything in their pursuit of social justice
Maybe we could... You know... Admit men and women are different?
CopperFox3c 5y ago
Meritocracy ... RIP.
On a related note, my experience teaching STEM at a major university in the United States (described down in the comments) was that many of the people in those departments these days don't have any business teaching anyone. Many of them don't understand the point of education is to teach people how to think, not what to think.
The bias is rampant, Orwellian though-speak, Harrison Bergeron type attempts at "equality of outcomes" ... is even starting to creep into traditional STEM fields.
Ezaar 5y ago
Thank you.
Profdiddy 5y ago
Not my experience teaching STEM at uni.
SweatyAdvance 5y ago
Did anyone here see the paper posted a few days ago that said female students receive significantly higher grades from female middle school teachers than boys did. And that the female students believed that they would be getting higher grades from male teachers, that they didn't get, which was then perceived as male sexism.
This appears to me to be just more of that. These female students think that the male professors aren't grading them high enough, and it must be because "muh patriarchy" and definitely not because they haven't earned higher grades.
Mickleton_Mouseroo 5y ago
How is this even possible? For my education you answered your questions, got graded against a markscheme, and your grade was determined by where your total marks sat in a grade boundary which applied to everyone taking the test. I just don’t understand how there can even be an opportunity for sexism and privilege to affect given grades.
Atolla2 5y ago
Grades for essays and other subjective pieces of work could vary wildly though. I remember letting a kid copy my essay early in high-school.
He got 13/20 (65%) & I got 19/20 (95%). Different teachers & he was an absolute nuisance in class. Not surprising at all that other forms of bias exist.
Eorlingat 5y ago
Stem however, leaves much less room for interpretation. Math classes, you either have the answer or don't. Same with chemistry, engineering, biology... these aren't creative arts, they are results based. The grades aren't based on the work put in, it's pretty results, and if women in stem aren't keeping up, it's not the professors' fault.
Atolla2 5y ago
I can't speak for the sciences, but as someone who studied Economics (which could be seen as quite black & white), there were huge, subjectively graded components.
AlfredKinsey 5y ago
I've had some professors (men and women) interject themselves in biology and psychology courses, including far to much subjective grading into their syllabus, mostly through projects/papers. In terms of biology courses, I experienced this in a conservation course and an intro to biological engineering course.
pame12 5y ago
That's not quiet true. I can't speak for chemistry, or biology, but for computer science (software engineering) there are instances of bias. For example if you write code in a similar style to whoever is going to mark it, then you might get a few brownie points (subconsciously) from the marker. Another example would be making a software without any libraries (doing everything yourself), it could give you extra brownie points, or it could subtract, depending on who's marking.
A more interesting example would be parallelism. A parallelised software could work fine for a long time, but one day it can go kaput. So a "does it work?" measurement doesn't work here for sure.
Eorlingat 5y ago
In an engineering class, I had a female TA give me a poor grade on a CAD drawing I made. I made it in full orthographic projection, with every dimension neatly, properly placed in a way that could have been given to a machinist and they could make the part. She marked me down, because I "didn't have a 3d model." The female students from my study group got full credit for modeling a much less complex part and not dimensioning anything. I had to go over her head to the professor on that one - in the industry, no one uses dimensionless 3d models. The arbitrary, subjective nature of a lot of the assignments in that class really rubbed me the wrong way.
pame12 5y ago
Yes I can relate somewhat, though in my situation resolving it didn't help. And then there was my friend...
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kyledontcare 5y ago
Are the ladies at the female owned engineering company who built the collapsed bridge in Florida the ones who had their grades redistributed? Who cares if they put in effort? Is their work right? That's the important point.
Exodus230 5y ago
Men work hard and think they can work harder.
Women dont work hard but think they couldn't work harder.
Sin-Silver 5y ago
I’m dyslexic and dyspraxic and had to work 50% harder than all my university In order to pass my electronics degree.
If we where marked on “perceived effort” I would have gone to Cambridge.
Dazzing67 5y ago
i feel like females got this delusional view because statistics keep saying 70% of uni graduates are women, without mentioning what studies they majored in. besides that is also the difference that we have testosterone, even if males drop out, chances are they're still gonna be earning more by starting own bussinesses etc. i mean grades and degrees are not a free pass to success. testosterone gives us more drive to be agressive and competitive and to be very motivated.
Mattcwu 5y ago
No, we need Engineers to be highly-skilled not just hard-working. Otherwise, bridges could collapse, people could die.
derindel 5y ago
Prepare to have a bunch of shit fall down in the next 10 years. Shit like this is un fucking believable.
doubtless_abyss 5y ago
Praying to God I never get medical treatment from anyone who graduated with all A’s for effort
grewapair 5y ago
All my doctors are Asian. That's not an accident.
thrway1312 5y ago
Women inflating their efforts to make themselves feel better about the reality that they're treating study time as social hour
Nice try hamsters, engineering won't succumb to feels before reals because there's actual repercussions for unqualified practicing engineers
MoDuReddit 5y ago
"I FEEL that this bridge will hold!"
NorthEasternNomad 5y ago
My fiance is a poster child, congratulating herself for her help around the house.
Oh, you mean the one meal you cooked. Sometime last week.
They think talking about effort is the same as putting it forth. It's the Facebook "I Support XYZ" generation.
News flash: typing on Facebook isnt supporting shit.
monadyne 5y ago
And yet this creature is your "fiancé"? You're going to sign up for a lifetime with her? Care to explain to your brothers here just what your thinking is with this plan???
NorthEasternNomad 5y ago
I'm thinking "Finish my degree, and bail." Thats what I am thinking. This degree is my primary focus right now anyway, so, its not as if I have tons of free time I could be using for other stuff.
Once its done, I will be more than happy to upset the apple cart.
monadyne 5y ago
Please keep in mind that you're just one birth control slip-up away from having your exit strategy -whatever it is- yanked away from you.
NorthEasternNomad 5y ago
Neither of us can have kids, actually. Thats not a concern, thankfully.
But a good point, if it were.
AlfredKinsey 5y ago
Are you intertwined with her financially or something? Why the holdout?
NorthEasternNomad 5y ago
Splitting up financial intertwining peacefully, and simply focusing on the degree. I need this degree for job advancement, and while I am doing it, I am not going to have much of a life anyway. So why not just get it over with before rocking the boat.
AlfredKinsey 5y ago
FWIW, I was in a similar boat, but am perfectly fine despite breaking up with my ex towards the end of spring semester. It is important to value your time and spend it well.
Make sure that the relationship is not causing undue stress or unhappiness, that it is not limiting your potential. If it is, you are better to let it go and reclaim your life.
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EqualResponsibility 5y ago
Holy fuck balls. They deserve better grades because they FEEL they worked harder? I kept hoping this was a Onion post.
TheDevilsAdvokaat 5y ago
When will this foulness end?
Now they want to grade women not on how hard they work, but how hard they FELT they worked?
Not only is feminism toxic, it's outright becoming dangerous. This is a wonderful way to destroy science education.
Let's reward people not based on merit, but based on how hard THEY think they worked!
grandmasbroach 5y ago
When a female engineers bridge collapses and kills a bunch of people. Are they just going to say... Well, she tried so hard when she was building it though, so you can't be mad????
justtenofusinhere 5y ago
That's typical for the female mindset. They want to be minimally invested so they can claim a full share. "I'll carry the trowell, you carry the ten 50lb bags of cement, and together we'll get everything set up!"
smokebowlington 5y ago
I "perceive" a generation of young men learning science and technology through YouTube videos instead, and still being better at it.
AlfredKinsey 5y ago
Half of the videos I watch to learn programming and electronics are by prepubescent boys.
MoDuReddit 5y ago
I've found my self listening attentively to pre-pubescent boys on technical issues more than once. Latest one was a niche collectible scale metal cars. Boy, did that kid know about how to tell a 20$ model from a 200$ model!
ECoast_Man 5y ago
It just doesn't get any better than this now does it?
Take note it doesn't say 'STEM grades don't reflect actual effort'. It is perceived effort. The study shows women aren't actually working as hard, or harder, than their male colleagues. In other words, women think that McNerd or Chadlogger just stroll into class, work less hard, and do as good or better when it is not reality, and we apparently need to changing grading practices to reflect this.
It would actually be more acceptable in my opinion if it found women actually work as hard as men, but are just not as good at the old maths and logical reasoning things, and in an effort to make up for that they get a bump. That would still be shit, don't get me wrong, but accommodating perceived work ethic differences is substantially worse - it's validating delusion, not reality.
But let's set aside the white knighting and 'strong independent womyn' who performed the study for a moment, and think of the subjects - the women.
Are any of us surprised by this? I'm sure as fuck not. The vast majority of women I've dated perceive working as hard as I do, and I'm sure I'm not unique. This is what drives women who work at the fucking DMV or a receptionist to demand their engineer/lawyer/doctor/entrepreneur husband to 'do half' the house work because 'I work hard too, you shitlord'. It's delusional - they are not able to think rationally in any sense of the word when it comes to this.
My advice- I actually counter this now by dating 'down' for plates when we are talking relative occupations - way down. Waitresses, hairdressers, basic occupations really. Most of these women are so in awe of what I do because it carries so much more responsibility than theirs than you get less of this shit. Plus, they tend to be hotter and more pleasant all around in my experience.
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ECoast_Man 5y ago
I think you're giving too much credit here.
This is solipsism at its finest. These chicks are in the same classes, same study groups, labs, etc., as the guys. Its right in front of their faces. Sure, there is some proportion of stoic Laws of Power guys, but not a statistically significant amount.
These chicks are just thinking I worked really hard, and boo-hoo me, and they're not even thinking about how hard the other guys are working relative to them. It doesn't enter their thought process to assess this relativity.
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liptonreddit 5y ago
You have a serious confidence problem.
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can_you_read 5y ago
That article cherry-picked the hell out of the study. Did you bother to read it? They didn't separate most things out by gender, and they didn't recommend redistributing grades more akin to non-STEM disciplines, they just mentioned that someone else has suggested that. A single sentence, about someone else's idea, buried in the discussion. Finally, in that comment where they mention that, there was no mention of gender and that section wasn't about gender; that was a comment about the effect of grades on motivation in the entire study population, men and women included.
Check your sources. You should be embarrassed for repeated cherry-picked and misleading drivel.
Banincoming 5y ago
Dumb people can work harder and still get worse grades.
tyrryt 5y ago
Too bad aircraft engines and skyscraper foundations don't give a fuck about your "perceived effort".
[deleted] 5y ago
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ggggggggee 5y ago
I was programming in the computer lab once and then a bunch of female liberal arts majors came in. They had a talk on "Females in Stem." I shit you not, one of them complained that if she was "exposed" to STEM as a kid she might have majored in comp sci instead of Ethnic Studies.....I was never exposed to programming or math past algebra...I just signed up for the classes LMFAO.
The entitlement and victimhood mentality where nothing is their fault is unreal. Just take responsibility for your actions and try it out...or just admit that you didn't want to have to go through all of the painful classes...don't blame "not being exposed".
aircavscout 5y ago
I was exposed to stem my entire life. Vaccinations, cars, clean drinking water, buildings... all designed/developed by STEM majors.
tentacle_ 5y ago
Did they ever wonder how their smartphones worked? Magic?
AlfredKinsey 5y ago
Men are disposable, even wizards.
[deleted] 5y ago
So....more collapsed bridges.
JcHgvr 5y ago
This is nothing to laugh at, female students at math exam in Oxford university were given extra 10 minutes of time to help them get their grades up. Slowly but surely man are being pushed to the bottom at every part of life.
Cantloginhere 5y ago
Fairly sure everyone got extra time, but the motivation was to help women get top grades. By all accounts it only helped those at the bottom get slightly better results.
FinalPrince 5y ago
..did this actually happen?! "Ok males the exam is over please leave the hall, females you have 10 more minutes." Utter lunacy
JcHgvr 5y ago
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2018/02/01/oxford-university-extends-exam-times-womens-benefit/
Yes it happened and it was 15 minutes
Ivan_The_Reddish 5y ago
Not quite, but the same effect. Men were getting higher grades, but they were more likely to work faster and finish earlier than women. So they gave everyone more time, which disproportionately helps those who do not have as good of a grasp of the subject matter (women). And the whole intent was entirely to give women a boost.
Oh, Freddy Fast finished the exam early because he actually knows what he's doing? Well fuck him we're going to give Suzie Slow all the time in the world, and even though Suzie can't count past ten unless she's wearing sandals we'll do our damndest to make sure they end up with the same score.
JcHgvr 5y ago
No, only woman were extra time and it was 15 minutes, link above.
Ivan_The_Reddish 5y ago
The article has a correction at the bottom stating that both sexes were given the extra time.
Not that I'd put it past the left to only give women the extra time if they thought they could get away with it.
Aconite_Eagle 5y ago
But...it's perceived....individual perception is irrelevant. Results only matter. Idiots.
samshady64 5y ago
“Results only matter.”
Not to the feminazi cabal forcing men from science they don’t.
RandomReeditUser 5y ago
Do you want more collapsed bridges? Because this is how you get more collapsed bridges.
BobSagetV2 5y ago
In other news: "Bridge collapses because the engineers didn't learn anything in college"
Cantloginhere 5y ago
This is fake news for sure, did you read the other link where 'professors' want to redefine physics because of white male privilege? Apprently 'the laws of nature' imply a male law maker indicative of the white patriarchy. I kid you not. This either a troll site or spoof.
can_you_read 5y ago
It's definitely fake news: the linked article cherry-picked the study and misrepresents it's findings. The grade-motivational effect was reported independent of gender. They didn't suggest changing grading practices, they cited that someone else has suggested that. Finally, the people who did suggest that showed that rates of continuation in the field were more affected by grade in men than women. This isn't suggesting we prop up women in science. The linked article is shit and the title misrepresents the findings.
monadyne 5y ago
The bridge you're designing doesn't care how hard you worked on the project, or the personal hurdles you overcame. It only cares if the physics of the loads and stresses are adequately dealt with... so the bridge won't collapse. Grading on a curve may be appropriate in entirely subjective academic fields, like Lesbian Dance Theory, or even Comparative Literature, but not in STEM fields.
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