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- Hide Preview | 182 Comments | submitted 8 months ago by CHAD_J_THUNDERCOCK [Post Locked]

Highlights:

• Female mice housed with castrated males have higher stress levels.

• Female mice housed with castrated males actively avoid their housing partner when provided with a refuge.

• We suggest that females actively avoid males with low levels of testosterone, and that their surrounding social partners can affect their physiology.

study: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.physbeh.2019.112678


To read the full paper for free:

To read the full paper go to sci-hub.tw and paste the full url (the doi one I put above) into the search box. I wont link it directly in case it is against rules.


Interesting notes:

  1. There should be little reproductive cost with being around infertile males - the females have no risk of getting pregnant and the male rats were not acting sexually towards them. But the females still were stressed out by their presence.

  2. The study looked at 3 groups of rats: fertile, totally castrated, and vasectomised. Despite having no way of knowing (unless pheremones come into play?), the female rats were also stressed out by vasectomised male rats with no visible castration.

  3. They measure 'cost-of-reproduction' to females as amount of stress hormones they experience. Femaels around alphas had low stress, and females around low-rank males had higher stress. Just by observing stress levels of females around you one might be able to observe your perceived rank. Additionally shit tests could be considered a stress-relief mechanism for the female; if you pass then their stress (cortisol) will go down.

One such measure that is used as an indicator of the costs of reproduction, inter alia, is glucocorticoid (GC) stress hormones. Male mating behaviour has been demonstrated to increase female GC levels in primates through sexual coercion and aggression (Muller et al. 2007; Thompson et al. 2010) and changes in male rank (Beehner et al. 2005; Carnegie et al. 2011). Non-preferred mates may also induce stress in females. This has been demonstrated in a bird, the socially monogamous Gouldian finch (Erythrura gouldiae ) , where hens paired with poor -quality cocks had higher levels of circulating corticosterone (Griffith et al. 2011). While it is well established that GC stress hormones play crucial adaptive roles in fetal development (Baxter and Rousseau 1979), prolonged high secretion can also have suppressive effects on female reproductive physiology and behaviour (Tilbrook et al. 2000; Wingfield and Sapolsky 2003) and increase susceptibility to disease (Sapolsky et al. 2000). Prenatal maternal stress can additionally have long-term consequences for offspring (Lemaire et al. 2000; Maccari et al. 2003; Yang et al. 2006; Tamashiro et al. 2009).


h/t to https://twitter.com/DegenRolf/status/1170276714406121472

He has the best twitter feed on science of psychology, sex, behaviour, psychopaths, lies/truth, big 5, etc, so give him a follow.

[-] GayLubeOil 270 Points 8 months ago

Women can castrate themselves via antidepressants, birth control and being fat. I'm sure castrated females are also stressful to males.

[-] Diablo-D3 120 Points 8 months ago

This photo causes me stress.

[-] sebastianconcept 18 Points 8 months ago

Yeah but there isn’t anything valuable to learn from that.

[-] PickUpScientist 59 Points 8 months ago

idk it could partially explain why fat people are gross.

[-] Managicall 3 Points 8 months ago

You got that right, such a fat sweaty dick ugh just disgusted with myself.

[-] PickUpScientist 6 Points 8 months ago

sorry. by gross i meant sexually repulsive, but not in an entirely irredeemable way. ed sheeran seems to be doing alright for himself.

[-] sebastianconcept -14 Point 8 months ago

Not all fat people are. So, no.

[-] letsgobish29 8 Points 8 months ago

not all! we're all the same. we're all different. everyone's unique! just be positive.

[-] sebastianconcept -5 Point 8 months ago

The sarcasm doesn’t unmake the black swan.

[-] [deleted] 8 months ago
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[-] OceanPoultry 1 Point 8 months ago

All fat ppl are gross.

[-] LiteraIIyJesus 16 Points 8 months ago

I couldn't help but say "yes" out loud when I read this.

[-] Managicall 3 Points 8 months ago

Gullible, guilty and open to talk about it. That is the dark triad of passive aggression right there.

[-] SKRedPill 3 Points 8 months ago

And trying to become masculine through feminism. Emphasis on the "trying".

Now that IS stressful to the man next to her.

[-] Geckobird 1 Point 8 months ago

Omg. I know a girl like this and she's damn annoying. She won't leave me the fuck alone. I try ignoring her, but as we all know, that shit is counterproductive.

[-] JuiceGod21 134 Points 8 months ago

Man this shit is crazy, i knew there was some type of aura with this nofap shit... there was one time i went 3 weeks without release and was working out constantly.

I noticed the women were acting very childish whilst in my vicinity and would constantly bring me up in sidebar conversations with other coworkers. even the males were talking about me in a very positive way. This shit completely threw me off... because usually people would act as if i dont even exist.... this shit also has an effect on males also...

[-] Minimalisma 69 Points 8 months ago

I think it's bullshit that girls would be able to tell if you've jerked off recently. That's some psychic superpower crap. Maybe you might act in a different way in front of girls through your body gestures and speech slightly. I haven't noticed any difference. People already have a hard enough time reading into other people's implied body language and speech.

[-] sensual_predditor 61 Points 8 months ago

Girls psychically synchronize their menstrual cycles, there are all kinds of interpersonal processes at play we are not consciously aware of

[-] [deleted] 8 months ago
[-] xKalista 23 Points 8 months ago

The science is practically settled, it works

The research says that fapping is definitely harmful and can be addictive, causing low motivation, erectile disfunction and lower mood among others. However the research does not talk about 'superpowers' or test increasing. (I'm a nofapper)

[-] RyanFire 1 Point 8 months ago

I disagree, I think you should constantly be thinking about sex and watching porn, and jerking off daily keeps your prostate healthy, along with pelvic exercises.

[-] [deleted] 8 months ago
[-] Sean0987 7 Points 8 months ago

Let's see some before and after bloodwork. Only way to know

[-] kayra-han 5 Points 8 months ago

Nofap does not increase test on long term, not using your junk for a prolonged time could even cause ED , but yeah “jewish bullish“

[-] BuzzLightGear321 3 Points 8 months ago

NOTHING increases natural test by more than 20% if you are already eating healthy, sleeping, and lifting. Small increases in test (<50%) don't affect your personality. Fuck I've pinned 5x natural test levels and acted the same. Your comment is 100% bro science.

[-] Spicychickenaholic 1 Point 8 months ago

Bruh you need to try some proviron

[-] Minimalisma 2 Points 8 months ago

You didn't read my comment correctly lol. I never mentioned anything about nofap increasing or decreasing testosterone.

I have no idea about the effects of nofap and I'm not saying it's bad. All I'm saying is that girls don't have psychic abilities to tell if you've jerked off recently just from being in your vicinity like this guy is claiming.

[-] bigsunsetguy 18 Points 8 months ago

Did you read the comment that you originally replied to? He didn’t say just girls

All nofap is, is getting your body to its natural state.

People that aren’t depleting themselves constantly are just healthier and more lively.

Their mere presence is more enjoyable and pleasant. That’s all it is

[-] Minimalisma -8 Point 8 months ago

So you're claiming that guys can tell as well?? That's bullshit.

I can't say anything on the idea of jerking off being bad or good though. But PEOPLE (not just girls like you corrected me on) DO NOT have psychic abilities to tell if a guy has jerked off recently just by being around them

[-] bigsunsetguy 5 Points 8 months ago

Ok? I didn’t say that

What I did say is that one who doesn’t really jerk off is operating closer to their natural state. The product of billions of years of evolution. To where it just makes people say “hey, there’s something about that guy.”

That’s it.

[-] cakemuncher 5 Points 8 months ago

These kind of things happen subconsciously. It's like body language. You don't have psychic abilities to tell if someone is lying, but you get a "feeling" that the person is lying by subconscious cues. Your brain is constantly reading thousands of cues from people around you, like eye movements and speech tone, yet you're not conscious of those cues.

They're arguing that NoFap does the same. By not fapping, they're claiming that it increases your test e, therefore, your behavior changes and that gets picked up by your peers subconsciously. Just like how men can pick up on the fact that women are ovulating. It's not that you're consciously aware of a woman ovulating, it's just that, for some reason, you think that woman is now more attractive.

[-] JuiceGod21 1 Point 8 months ago

Bro did you just read the op's post? The female mice literally AVOIDED the castrated male mice.

[-] [deleted] 8 months ago
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[-] [deleted] -8 Point 8 months ago

[deleted]

[-] [deleted] 8 months ago
[-] Roto2esdios 14 Points 8 months ago

I agree. All of this superpower is just placebo effect which affects behaviour and autoperception of this guys

[-] johninthebox 18 Points 8 months ago

Still, not necessarily a bad thing. A healthy self-perception can be its own sort of superpower.

Especially for people who struggle with self image, which I'd guess applies to a lot of the nofap community (and a lot of redpill as well)

[-] Roto2esdios 4 Points 8 months ago

Yeah, I see your point and accord about the type of average user of this subs.

Funny how this works in sports like football, tennis... players have all of kind of fuzzy superstitions and rituals but that helps to take their anxiety away and be a better athlete.

The lesser evil I guess...

[-] PickUpScientist 7 Points 8 months ago

i went like a year without fapping when i was depressed. women were likelier than not to flee from my presence at that time. this was before the nofap fad.

[-] Roto2esdios 3 Points 8 months ago

Yes your subjective perception is that. I am not dubting of what did you perceived instead I am questioning the validity of the results to extract a valid rule

In Science to prove something you have to put people in placebo as control group and people who really take the medicine so you can validate something.

[-] PickUpScientist 4 Points 8 months ago

It didn't work for me is what I meant by that. I've gone down a google rabbit hole about it after reading this thread now though. Apparently the studies are limited (its hard to get a group of guys to reliably not masturbate for prolonged periods of time, go figure). Some of the studies that have been done show an uptick in T starting at the 7 day mark. On the other hand, a similar increase can be observed during fapping, and immediately following fapping, so for those lacking in self restraint, I would recommend fapping with one hand while curling a dumbbell in the other.

[-] RoadToZion1119 1 Point 8 months ago

Why does it even matter? What does it change if it is placebo or not? The fact that your life becomes better from abstinence is enough to make you stop

[-] Roto2esdios 1 Point 8 months ago

Placebo is universal you can obtein it just by believing that you are doing something useful for you as crossing oneself or a player touching the playfield ground before entering and whatnot.

Does it even matter? Well what kind of decisions you would take if you think you have superpowers like believing women are attracted to you by not jerking... Maybe you become overconfident or if someday it didn't work you start making more rituals like tennis player Rafa Nadal.

[-] MoDuReddit 11 Points 8 months ago

If you were a girl, it'd be as clear as day. A empty-balled man has a completely different attitude.

[-] Minimalisma 15 Points 8 months ago

So is an alpha male gonna start acting like a bitch in front of girls in public just cause he jerked off to Riley Reid a couple hours ago?

[-] deeznutsbeswingin 19 Points 8 months ago

Go a week without ejaculating paying attention to how others act around you, then jerk off and do the same. This is actually legit. As ridiculous as it seems, women and even other men react to slight changes in your pheromones and/or behaviour caused by increased testosterone during nofap. It’s a surefire way to get laid more, ironically

Unfortunately it also means you will be challenged more by other males. So be ready for that too

[-] Minimalisma 5 Points 8 months ago

I've done this before, and through my experience nothing changed. I've gone through 4 months of nofap in the past.

[-] deeznutsbeswingin 13 Points 8 months ago

Idk, I have all the visible markers for high test (deep voice, facial/body hair, massive shoulders, easy to gain muscle, strong jawline) plus I take celery seed daily to give me a boost. If I haven’t released for a day or two women are all about it at bars and clubs. After a week I can’t walk down the street without seeing IOI’s.

Interesting though is that getting laid has the same effect. But we already know getting laid increases your testosterone as well so that makes sense

[-] BACONisKEWLEST 11 Points 8 months ago

Here’s the thing, that could just as easily be attributed to YOU. You’re hornier, therefore you notice more iois than when your balls are drained.

[-] MoDuReddit 5 Points 8 months ago

This. It's amazing how NoFappers mistake the forest for the trees.

[-] deeznutsbeswingin 2 Points 8 months ago

No because getting laid has the same effect

[-] Cheeseking11 1 Point 8 months ago

Age might have an effect here. I would be physically unable to go noFap between the ages of 16-24 as my testosterone was through the roof. I'd be walking around with a boner most of the day and would literally have wet dreams when I tried not to Fap or in times when I could not for whatever reason.

[-] deeznutsbeswingin 1 Point 8 months ago

True, I’m in my 40s. 16-24 yo me was the same, at that point it’s really just about understanding and making use of TRP concepts. Stoicism is also something that would have helped me then

[-] RoadToZion1119 2 Points 8 months ago

Μaybe you are under 6ft, ugly and skinny

[-] MoDuReddit -1 Point 8 months ago

Dude. You're changing your behaviour, and you're attributing your social change as "magical not wanking gives me superpowers".

Or... bear with me on this one...

You've changed your attitude. I know, mind blowing isn't it? Just don't fap 100 times a day. NoFap is bulshit.

[-] deeznutsbeswingin 8 Points 8 months ago

Doesn’t matter which, what matters is results. Nofap will help you stop a dry spell

[-] MoDuReddit -4 Point 8 months ago

Wishfull thinking but ok.

Wearing women's panties will achieve the same effect. Placebos work the same.

[-] deeznutsbeswingin 7 Points 8 months ago

You’re free to believe whatever you want, I’m posting for guys who are looking for help. All the best to ya bud

[-] MoDuReddit -5 Point 8 months ago

Sure. Next you're going to sell some essential oils, some ear waxing and some netty pot...

"You're free to believe whatever you want" is bulshit, because this forum is used as a source of information and you're spreading disinformation.

No scientific evidence at all supports NoFap, if you want belief go to some religious forums.

[-] MoDuReddit 4 Points 8 months ago

According to NoFap, yes.

According to TRP and science, no.

[-] [deleted] 8 months ago
[-] papertowelfreethrow 10 Points 8 months ago

It's got to do with porn addicts regaining their androgen receptors when abstaining and more free testosterone being used making them act less beta.

[-] Ddone47 1 Point 8 months ago

What do you mean? So if you watch less porn you'd get more testosterone

[-] papertowelfreethrow 5 Points 8 months ago

Yes and no, when you stop jacking off for 7 days you're testosterone spikes but then drops back to normal. When you abstain for indefinitely, you regain sensitivity to your androgen receptors so that you could use the testosterone you already more efficiently to put it simply

[-] Ddone47 1 Point 8 months ago

Hmm so when I abstain from porn. My androgen receptors go back to normal so testosterone would be used more?

[-] papertowelfreethrow 2 Points 8 months ago

Pretty much, it isn't that simple but research it more to get a better understanding.

[-] Ddone47 1 Point 8 months ago

Alright gonna try noporn for a month and nofap for at least a week

[-] deeznutsbeswingin 1 Point 8 months ago

Is there documentation on this somewhere? That’s very interesting

[-] papertowelfreethrow 2 Points 8 months ago

Yea google androgen receptors and nofap you'll probably find the studies on their site

[-] c4ge1nvisibl3 6 Points 8 months ago

Man, I don't do the NoFap thing, but you there's pheromones at play, they're in your body odour, you just don't notice it consciously, I don't remember where I read that, but the thing is people can smell it on you subconsciously. Well, there's also attitude, body language and vocal tonality. I'll try to look into it later.

[-] Siyuen_Tea 4 Points 8 months ago

It's been shown that men find women more attractive when she's ovulating. They figured this out by having men basically smell a deodorized bucket of piss. All there ratings of the women went up a point or 2. They technically smelled nothing but it had a noticeable physiological effect.

Can't remember if this was nat geo or Discovery.

[-] Geckobird 3 Points 8 months ago

It's not that people can detect whether or not you've ejaculated more recently, but they notice you have a stronger aura about you. When I've been on streaks of a week or longer, people have literally told me that I was glowing, I seemed different, etc. There's definitely a connection.

[-] ZerglingKingPrime 1 Point 8 months ago

Nofap does nothing, it's just another garbage pseudoscience. The positive lifestyle changes that people make long with nofap, ie working out, eating better, etc. is what's getting more attention from girls. Imagine actually believing in that "aura" bullshit. Ffs.

[-] Minimalisma 0 Points 8 months ago

Ikr holy crap, I can't believe I'm having to argue with these people while they try to rationalize this aura shit and try to make me sound like an idiot

[-] mydogfartzwithz 1 Point 8 months ago

It's not psychic its more of a feeling in her comparing your energy to other guys, that you jerked it, so you want her less than the guy who hasnt jerked it yet. Obviously there's a more complex answer.

[-] sebastianconcept 32 Points 8 months ago

Probably, yes. Wonder how much subvocal communication / body language plays a role into that

[-] miserablesisyphus 30 Points 8 months ago

This is really interesting to me. I have had similar experiences, although I think current science contradicts the ideas behind "no fap". My (unscientific) belief is that masturbation decreases my sex drive--with real women. My overall sex drive isn't necessarily decreased, but it's directed towards porn, not women. Why bother trying to sleep with a woman when I can find anything I want online much easier?

I think this decreased interest in women is the cause of the other perceptions. For example, if i'm less interested in women and more interested in porn, I probably will give women less attention, a lower amount of signals of interest, etc.. It's a self fulfilling prophecy in a sense.

Personally, when I don't masturbate I also get turned on by real women much easier. For example, just seeing an attractive girl at the grocery store picking out fruit can get me going. I think the actual physiological responses to this attraction are the difference. For example, the increased heart rate, dilated pupils, blood flowing, etc. are things these women can perceive. I mean, there's been scientific studies to show that men can perceive when a woman is ovulating just by smell and she is more attractive to them during this ovulation. It doesn't seem too crazy to believe or suggest that masturbation may somehow have a detrimental effect on us to some degree.

I think there needs to be more research on it, but it seems irresponsible to rule anything out.

[-] mydogfartzwithz 5 Points 8 months ago

I can agree with this, as usually the more interested you are in a girl sexually the more she'll be open to you ect. but the less interested I am the more often I find i'm not the center of attention to girls. It's like they can sense as a whole if i'm going to be a good source of quality attention, because the right amount of male attention will turn her on (women want to be wanted by the right guy). As I can admit if you are what a girl is after, and you are in the mood for her, you can literally walk up to her, pick her up and take her where you want to.

[-] bouncypoo 1 Point 8 months ago

Eh , I think there are 2 sides to the coin, but I'm likely high test. When I don't masterbate , especially when I don't have a female companion, I get "desperate". Women can read that by my interest and body language. Of course If I masterbate too much the desire for women decreases, but I'm also able to not GAF and I've noticed a lot of women find that attractive. The best of course is to find your own personal balance. Some guys fap 3 x a day and have harems of women, others never fap and women barely notice them, so YMMV.

[-] RiskyRewarder 1 Point 8 months ago

A woman also weighs less during ovulation and her breasts are bigger.

[-] ReadyToLearn256 -2 Point 8 months ago

They play 100% of the role, other people can't smell the chemical composition of your blood or brain and they don't know how long you haven't ejaculated for unless you tell them.

[-] Bone_Coat 20 Points 8 months ago

I remember watching a video on youtube (in spanish), it was form a woman that can canalize information from upper planes (akashic records), she said that when men watch porn or fap the aura that you expell is weird or pervy and because of that females were avoiding you, that if you want females to be more open to you , you needed to stop doing that. basically: you are what you "eat".

I believe there is a correlation between spiritual and biological components. just my two cents. feel free to call me crazy, I'm used to it

[-] abitsloshed 7 Points 8 months ago

Alright I'll try it for week.

[-] RoadToZion1119 2 Points 8 months ago

If you are addicted (watch porn/masturbate daily) you are gonna need way more than a week. People that use porn/masturbation daily and try to abstain often experience a "flatline", which is basically a time period where you feel no energy/don't get any boners.

[-] AstralAeonSoul 2 Points 8 months ago

I'm surprised to see the Akashic records mentioned here. Do you have a source for the video? I'd really like to see it.

[-] Bone_Coat 1 Point 8 months ago

i will PM you the link, just give some time since im at wrok right now. it's not subtitled by the way.

[-] [deleted] 8 months ago
[-] nofears 18 Points 8 months ago

I've experienced the exact same thing. I can't explain it, but the only time I have women actively hitting one me is when I don't release for a while. There is a clear shift in their perception of me.

If it's been a week or more, women are basically falling over me wherever I go. If I'm running on empty I can still get their attention, numbers, etc... but requires active game and a lot more effort.

[-] Starfuckingman 2 Points 8 months ago

This is so weird but I completely relate. I've tried this far too many times that I cannot deny it or call it placebo anymore.

[-] [deleted] 8 Points 8 months ago

Keep these things to yourself. The more people that find out the more compeition you have. Some things are best unsaid imo.

[-] Esploratore_ 6 Points 8 months ago

I’ve had the same reaction. My voice and eye contact are more “powerful”?. My overall attitude is better even after 3 days of nofap.

My guess is that our sexual drive is what makes us that way. We get that chip on our shoulder. I don’t know the exact science bu I do know that nofap doesn’t take that long to kick in and the benefits are amazing.

[-] MoDuReddit 3 Points 8 months ago

there was one time i went 3 weeks without release and was working out constantly.

Guess which one of these has scientific merit in explaining your improved behaviour? That's right, lifting. Stay away from pseudo science.

[-] JustSatan 2 Points 8 months ago

Honestly, whether or not related to testosterone (sometimes I feel like gender essentialists focus too much on estrogen and testosterone, as if our bodies consisted of nothing else), I feel a lot better when I do nofap in terms of optimism and, frankly, my genitals feel healthier and fuller--if that makes sense. In other words, there are no residual refractory effects at work. They are literally primed and ready to dispense a lot of seed. Lmao.

In tantra, it is said that withholding orgasm brings a prolonged/full-bodied experience of pleasure and when I'm doing nofap, I feel something similar... my genitals just feel... good... without arousal... all the time. Can anyone relate?

At the same time, however, I tend to have trouble sleeping after about a week of nofap. And a nigga need to sleep and recover from lifting... Anyway, maybe this has to do with decrease in prolactin levels? I'm not a scientist, though. And we're speaking from the top-down, so, rather than reverting to speaking about chemical compounds, which I can't measure through introspection, it should suffice to tell you how I FEEL when I do nofap. The same way I can tell you how I feel differently when I have a good meal, and you believe me. Of course... there are drawbacks in terms of the former..

P.S. I've done long streaks in the past and I wouldn't recommend them. There's a big difference between biding your energy over 1-3 weeks and forcing the process into complete dormancy over a period of 2-3 months. F that. If anything, nofap should be an elective process. If you want to masturbate, go ahead. If you don't feel it's necessary, then fuck it. Thoughts?

[-] MisterSlippyFinger 2 Points 8 months ago

Are you sure it’s due to no fap? Because you are technically more attractive after you have sex and both fapping and sex have a load of semen lost. Unless I’m missing something here...

[-] WahmynsLoveGlobohomo 1 Point 8 months ago

This is intriguing, I had a similar experience to yours and I heard the same in the past. However, when you are sexually active or in a relationship, women can "smell" it and they feel attracted to it. And I read somewhere that if you have lots of sexual intercouse, your testosterone increases. However, NoFap also increases testosterone. Could it be that you lose testosterone with masturbation and you gain it with interocourse?

[-] [deleted] 8 months ago
[-] mountainbiker178 69 Points 8 months ago

Female mice housed with castrated males have higher stress levels.

Despite having no way of knowing (unless pheremones come into play?), the female rats were stressed out by vasectomised male rats with no visible castration.

Which is it? Were the mice castrated or vasectomised?

Edit: Nevermind. The research looked at both.

[-] CHAD_J_THUNDERCOCK 31 Points 8 months ago

I'll edit my OP to increase clarity on this.

[-] mountainbiker178 10 Points 8 months ago

I'm not sure what to make of this research. I'm particularly interested because I had a vasectomy.

[-] BitsAndBobs304 20 Points 8 months ago

Just dont make the mistake of telling them and youre gold. Also make one extra sample later on to check it didn't miraculously reverse. That's all, happy fucking

[-] PickUpScientist 27 Points 8 months ago

that didn't work for the mice

[-] HBenedek38 2 Points 8 months ago

Humans suck at recognizing pheromones as far as we know though.

[-] Field_Of_View 2 Points 8 months ago

Read OP before posting in the thread.

[-] SuperCrazy07 12 Points 8 months ago

I hope you’re not interested in sex with female rats.

[-] fuckGuilt 5 Points 8 months ago

FWIW I've shot blanks my whole life but my biggest woman problem has always been subpar bitch management.

[-] Field_Of_View 1 Point 8 months ago

Is it reversible?

[-] mountainbiker178 1 Point 8 months ago

Supposedly. I do know the procedure to reverse the vasectomy is quite expensive with no guarantee of success.

[-] [deleted] 8 months ago
[-] [deleted] 8 Points 8 months ago

[deleted]

[-] Field_Of_View 3 Points 8 months ago

True. Traumatic stress experienced by the male rats would obviously affect the females around them. And I have a hard time imagining a stress-free vasectomy on a rat.

[-] [deleted] 8 months ago
[-] HBenedek38 2 Points 8 months ago

Ah yes. Keep looking for the truth in the hidden detail. There must be something wrong with the measurements and the experiment. No matter if it is corroborated by god knows how much empirical evidence, no - it was probably that the castrated males were traumatised that scared the females off.

My male car was vasectomized. Any female cat that comes around our house hisses at him and runs away, despite him being a very large, healthy cat. And no, he wasn't traumatised

[-] [deleted] 8 months ago
[-] fuckGuilt 17 Points 8 months ago

This is FUCKING AWESOME. What a time to be alive. Lift like your life depends on it.....no wonder awesome dudes get away with soft harems.

[-] swagswag1000 14 Points 8 months ago

i don't get it through. why would a male rat that couldn't impregnate the female rat if it tried be a cause of stress.

&#x200B;

surely a low status male that ISN'T castrated would cause more stress cos there is actually the threat of getting the inferior genes via rape.

&#x200B;

like surely a beta male with a dick is scarier than a beta male without one, cos at least the beta male without one can't do anything even if it wanted to?

&#x200B;

very confusing stuff here.

[-] umizumiz 67 Points 8 months ago

They don't know they can't pregnant...

They are afraid of getting pregnant by a low t mouse.

[-] scissor_me_timbers00 45 Points 8 months ago

It’s only confusing if you’re still partially blue pulled. Females feel soothed by the presence of alphas. Weak males make them nervous. They seek to find and enter the frame, or state, of high status types, because it is calm, confident, not anxious, etc. And they seek to avoid the frame or state of low status types, because it is nervous, on edge, insecure, etc.

The interpretation of this as “confusing” is blue pill because it buys into this interpretation that females are always under threat of impregnation that they don’t want, from inherently predatory males. In truth, they are only sometimes nervous, and it’s around low status males, even if those males don’t necessarily have sexual intentions. But alphas with strong sexual intentions don’t necessarily make them nervous. The element of sexual non viability thru castration is likely something female mammals did not evolve to detect. They likely evolved to detect the related characteristic of testosterone levels.

[-] swagswag1000 6 Points 8 months ago

but if females are so nervous around low status males then why do they have male BFFs and beta orbiters that they hang out with.

&#x200B;

surely, they'd avoid them outright if they were so uncomfortable to be around. I thought the whole problem with betas where that they made girls TOO comfortable.

&#x200B;

i don't doubt that sexually speaking women want to avoid betas. but i don't think this mouse experiment applies to humans except for in the fact that beta males showing sexual interest makes girls uncomfortable but that's just duh.

[-] godsbestgift 16 Points 8 months ago

You can have reasonable testosterone levels and be a beta male, you can also be an attractive man and be a beta male. You could've dated women your entire life and still be a beta male. The female rats are reacting to the hormonal response primarily, so it is at most, a potential hint at the human female perspective. The rats lack our neocortex(thinking) brain and simply behave based off of their limbic/lizard brains. The men are perceived as being very weak men for a very obvious reason, literally dick-less or infertile. Women will hang around beta males for a plethora of reasons, sometimes to use them for all their money/company, emotional tampon or a backup. Women will date a beta for these same reasons if hes good looking, in good shape, working and not socially retarded. If there was nothing attractive about him, no association would take place. For rats it is very simple, no thinking necessary. ew its a dickless male rat get it away from me. Its not a matter of alpha vs beta, its a matter of fertility and hormone levels

tl;dr briffault's law

[-] swagswag1000 1 Point 8 months ago

loooool, that's a funny way of putting it

[-] deeznutsbeswingin 5 Points 8 months ago

Women get off on controlling betas. We’re a lot more intelligent than mice so it seems the social evolution went that way in humans. But yeah women feel like children in the presence of an alpha and act like a domineering parent towards betas

[-] swagswag1000 7 Points 8 months ago

oh my god that domineering parent shit is the worst.

it's my biggest pet peeve when i see a woman talking to a man like she is his mother. it's so condescending and disrespectful, and i look at these guy like WHY are you putting up with this. i literally wanna slap a girl when they talk to me like that, i never would but it's just THAT annoying.

i can't understand how even a beta guy wouldn't tell a girl to shut the fuck up when she puts on that contemptuous naggy tone. it is literally the worst sound a woman can make.

i see my mother do it to my father and i'm just like HOW ARE YOU PUTTING UP WITH THIS MAKE IT STOP and i can't say shit cos it's not my relationship.

even when i was needy and had a bunch of blue pill beliefs in my last relationship, before i found TRP, i STILL didn't put up with that bitchy condescending tone. you don't need to be red pilled to tell someone to shut up when they're speaking to you like you're a child.

life is retarded

[-] deeznutsbeswingin 2 Points 8 months ago

Has a lot to do with your life experiences before the relationship. I used to be that guy. He believes he’s being the bigger person by weathering the storm while still being nice to her. It’s a self-reinforcing mental circle jerk that you spiral down into until you hit the end of your patience and work your way up again

[-] MoDuReddit 4 Points 8 months ago

but if females are so nervous around low status males then why do they have male BFFs and beta orbiters that they hang out with.

Because they can't get better alphas. Sure, the orbiters may lie around, but they're disgusted by them and that' why they'll never fuck the betas.

[-] swagswag1000 0 Points 8 months ago

yeah but not "run away and hide" disgusting like the rats did.

[-] MoDuReddit 9 Points 8 months ago

That's because rats don't need money or attention. Betas provide resources and attention.

[-] swagswag1000 3 Points 8 months ago

ooooh snap, good point

rats just need sex

[-] scissor_me_timbers00 4 Points 8 months ago

That’s a good point. My guess would be maybe with mice, every interaction between males and females is explicitly understood as sexual, so there is no middle ground friendzone territory.

[-] swagswag1000 3 Points 8 months ago

it's the equivalent of making a girl go on some explicitly romantic date in some quiet place alone with a guy she finds unattractive. no shit that causes stress lol.

[-] juggernaut8 1 Point 8 months ago

They seek to find and enter the frame, or state, of high status types, because it is calm, confident, not anxious, etc. And they seek to avoid the frame or state of low status types, because it is nervous, on edge, insecure, etc.

This.

They reflect the frames of the people around them because their own frames aren't strong. It's basically about frame dominance. The strongest frame decides the mood and vibe.

[-] scissor_me_timbers00 2 Points 8 months ago

Right, they do not generate enough internal frame/state on their own to buffer against what’s around them. So the beta low T state of the castrated males around them just makes them want to crawl out of their skin. It’s deeply uncomfortable. Meanwhile they fucking crave to be around the frame of strong, dominant, calm, positive alphas.

[-] AshyLarry27 7 Points 8 months ago

It's almost never about friendship with the genders. This is just placing an emphasis on how women avoid weakness and an inability to reproduce like the plague. They can feel he's not a "male" rat as he does not act up to it regardless of having a dick. Friendship goes out the window too. Most women don't actually want male friends, they keep them around as people to talk to, but at some deep rooted level still have some natural disgust for his inability to "man up." Women respond to confidence, aggressive, and decisive behaviors for a reason. She wants to feel as if she can just hand over the reigns to the male without having to grow up and make decisions. This is ultimately why we joke about how women are exactly like children. A beta without a dick is still a beta. Having his dick isn't necessarily whats going to determine if he chooses to jump out and protect the female rat from a predator vs running and hiding forcing her to fend for herself. That comes from him.

[-] sebastianconcept 3 Points 8 months ago

But whatever the confusion is, the hypergamic filter is there to solve it.

[-] RedKepler 2 Points 8 months ago

I think your forgetting that it was like 2 rats in one box.

A male one, and a female one.

OP's post says that some of the males showed little or no sexual interest- but the stress levels were still up for the female rats regardless.

They did vasectomies on some rats, and just full on castrated other rats.

They would have also put rats in which had no surgical procedure- or they'd of just used past data of the stress levels of the female rats with non-castrated rats. They have said that stress levels were much less then.

It has nothing to do with hierarchal sexual dynamics as such, they made the link that unsterilised rats had higher testosterone levels. What you take from that is "your testosterone levels have a direct impact on the stress of women around you".

Testosterone effects tonnes of things in males. The link is quite possibly that phermones and hormones that are released from males when testosterone is high are much stronger or plentiful than those released by males with much less testosterone.

That impacts the stress of the female, and how close they can get (in this case, the female rat went "fuck that" and made itself absent).

[-] swagswag1000 1 Point 8 months ago

but i mean isn't this shit everyone already knows even non TRP people. man even women, know this.

females don't want to fuck males who are not attractive. i mean this isn't ground breaking shit. it just shows that when a male rat is less masculine, the female rat does not want to fuck. this is nothing ground breaking.

manly men are hot, non manly men are not. woaaaaah.

the 2 rats in box scenario just makes it sexual by nature cos there are only 2 so it's like a scientific way of forcing the female to make a mating decision and surprise surprise the female rat says no to the pussy boy rats lol.

what i'm saying is that if you take away the "this is a do you wanna fuck or not situation" element, then i bet the female rat would not stress.

[-] RedKepler 1 Point 8 months ago

Exactly what this post is designed to show and reinforce.

I still don't see the problem.

[-] [deleted] 8 months ago
[-] AloofusMaximus 0 Points 8 months ago

Also I'm kind of surprised that nobody pointed out... Rats aren't fucking humans. Trying to correlate rodent mating to people is at best, a stretch.

[-] RedKepler 1 Point 8 months ago

I assumed no one would be daft enough to forget that.

[-] [deleted] 8 months ago
[-] Lord_Teapot 8 Points 8 months ago

the women were stressed because their primary means of control was rendered worthless, and their primary vector of worth was rendered irrelevant.

[-] [deleted] 8 months ago
[-] Pooddit 7 Points 8 months ago

I have this problem where I piss women off. I will piss off one top gal in the social environment and become the guy that all girls hate. But I am fit and other males and females want to be around me, so I must have a draw.

I think in my monkey brain, if I dont get to fuck the woman immediately, because of social rules, I go into pissed beta mode immediately.

[-] CHAD_J_THUNDERCOCK 11 Points 8 months ago

A good move is generally to be very curteous to the alpha female of the group and offer her a lot of respect. Like ask her questions that reinforce her status as the leader. Ask her outright if she is considered the leader and ask her questions about leadership. Sometimes I have literally asked permission from that alpha female about whether I could make a move on another girl in her group, and she will say yes and even persuade the girl to go home with me. Reinforcing the existing status hierarchy is a positive to the alpha female. Amongst the alpha males coming in to talk to members of her girlfriends you are immediately in the top 5% of benificialness to her status. And as she is leader and trusted and telling her friend I am great: I have massive social proof. The alpha female is not always the most physically attractive btw.

One of the best PUA content creators on youtube is Todd V. He advises that when talking to a group you be very nice and respectful to everyone in the group except your target who you tease, push/pull, hot/cold. This way you end up not creating a power dynamic between the girls where they will see you targeting too many people and the lower status woman will be the only option, or they will all team up on you or walk away together.

I personally used to game every girl in the group too much. But when I look at my actual end-game results I can see its more effective to not be gaming every single person. You should be clear on your target as you are hot/cold on her, and respectful to the others. Note that giving a little playfulness/teasing/games can be a show of respect, you dont need to just be super nice and validating.

[-] Sake99 2 Points 8 months ago

Seriously, females form leaderless groups.

[-] Pooddit 1 Point 8 months ago

This is great stuff. I didn't think of any of this. I don't get laid.

&#x200B;

I am cold toward women I am not interested in. This happened to be the many older women in the group, matriarchs, who control the other women. There is a woman who I had immediate chemistry with but I'm kinda intense but there is definite tension. I was rude to the woman I was interested in by denying a hug and saying I don't want her perfume on me, getting her riled up (seriously if I wasn't fit, I'd get no attention). All the women in the group left after that. They came back weeks later. I gamed the girl again, who waited after everyone left to interact with me (against the rules I'm sure), but this time with smiles and pulling her back with a long hand hold. I think this pissed off the many women and men involved in this thing, because I crushed all social systems in one fell swoop. No one wants me to fuck this girl.

&#x200B;

My social abilities are very primitive and straight animalistic. I think it boils down to: Old women submit to me and be useful or you will be neglected until you die. All men are enemies, I will mate guard the women and kill you. Young women are mine, all of them to do as I please. Some older alpha males I will let live barely in respect of what they are.

&#x200B;

Sometimes I think I don't even want sex. I just want to tell everyone "fuck you you ain't shit."

[-] Tutsks 5 Points 8 months ago

Oh my god. Even rats cant stand soyboys.

[-] Esploratore_ 4 Points 8 months ago

I get a feeling it has to do with low test means low security by females.

What they know as a male figure now has no test to protect them and provide for them.

I get a feeling that’s why they go crazy because it’s kind of like a mindfuck.

A male.. No testosterone? Wtf?

[-] boundarychimps 4 Points 8 months ago

The study looked at 3 groups of rats: fertile, totally castrated, and vasectomised. Despite having no way of knowing (unless pheremones come into play?), the female rats were also stressed out by vasectomised male rats with no visible castration.

Hm. This is odd. Since I wouldn't expect getting vasectomized to change anything, reacting differently to them doesn't seem to make sense. Which leads me to wonder if something else is going on.

&#x200B;

...looking at the paper on scihub, the top of the first page has

Female mice seek refuge from castrated males, but not intact or vasectomized males, mitigating a socially-induced glucocorticoid response

Which doesn't seem to match point 2 from OP that I quoted? But also doesn't raise the same concerns.

&#x200B;

And then from the abstract:

We found that females paired with vasectomised and castrated males spent the most time in their refuge.

This does match the OP, but not the one-sentence lede from the paper.

&#x200B;

&#x200B;

Something about all this seems odd -- in the sense of I think I might want a grain or so of salt with these results -- but I don't know enough to say what.

[-] SilenceOnTheWire 3 Points 8 months ago

Probably because the castrated mice don't give them as much attention/don't care?

According to TRP ignoring women gets them more anxious and willing to prove themselves. Those mice are the mouse equivalent of MGTOW.

Not sure how vasectomy works with mice.

[-] throwlaca 3 Points 8 months ago

Obviously, they cannot extract food or money from them.

[-] Bing_Bang_Bam 3 Points 8 months ago

Living with a woman lowers testosterone I think I heard.

[-] Ass-a-holic 3 Points 8 months ago

Best for both parties. If a man is castrated why would he care about a woman in any capacity?

[-] Siyuen_Tea 3 Points 8 months ago

Psychologically , we're closer to monkeys than rats. The experiment will need to be conducted on them for it to be considered reasonably relatable to humans.

[-] ImTheDoubleGreatest 5 Points 8 months ago

Much of the same neural systems are preserved among mammals, especially those relating to dopamine and serotonin (1, 2), and we also know that these affect socialization (3).

[-] ex_addict_bro 3 Points 8 months ago

Females seeking refugees already.

Hens pairing with low-quality cocks and voila, you have AskTRP and MRP... already...

Oh wait, that was 'refuge' not 'refugee'...

Whatever...

[-] henryblazer 2 Points 8 months ago

What deplorable person castrates mice?

[-] Sod_Off_Shotgun 16 Points 8 months ago

Hey, we all have our hobbies

[-] MoDuReddit 5 Points 8 months ago

For science! Rats deserve a statue on every civilised country, for all they've done for us in labs.

[-] EmirSc 1 Point 8 months ago

they put a fucking ear on a mice back so this is standard procedure

[-] [deleted] 8 months ago
[-] omega_fat 1 Point 8 months ago

Scientists obviously. They also love electrocuting puppies for fun - see the study on learned helplessness.

[-] PS2Errol 2 Points 8 months ago

Higher stress because they have no power over them.

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[-] sebastianconcept 2 Points 8 months ago

The vasectomized? I really didn’t expect that.

[-] Original_Dankster 6 Points 8 months ago

didn’t expect that

...Me (with my vasectomy) neither.

[-] sebastianconcept 3 Points 8 months ago

Did you noticed that it changed anything about you game?

[-] Original_Dankster 3 Points 8 months ago

I had my vasectomy about 15 years ago. I've been "red pilled" for about 5 or 7 years now (it was a gradual process, and learned elsewhere in the manosphere). So... No. I didn't notice anything.

[-] [deleted] 8 months ago
[-] [deleted] 8 months ago
[-] GhostMan0214 2 Points 8 months ago

That reminds me of the book and Ted Talk by Frans de Waal on the politics of primates.

They basically measured the cortisone in their shit. Turns out, the alpha male and the omega male both have similar levels of stress, and it basically makes a U shape in the graph from there.

Here's the ted talk https://youtu.be/BPsSKKL8N0s

[-] juggernaut8 2 Points 8 months ago

Did they measure T values as well? It doesn't make sense that alphas have more stress than betas unless the alphas' T levels are off the charts. Meaning they can handle a lot more stress without it affecting their T levels.

[-] GhostMan0214 2 Points 8 months ago

Good question. I don't know if they did. I got busy a few months ago and forgot to pick the book back up. I don't know how they could measure T from shit. There might be some kind of indicative byproduct or metabolite in there. I think they said they measured shit because drawing blood would be a bitch.

[-] CHAD_J_THUNDERCOCK 2 Points 8 months ago

Interesting. Its at the 10minute mark. https://youtu.be/BPsSKKL8N0s?t=603 . Its a U-curve though one might say a 'J-curve'; I keep seeing J-curves lately. There is another J-curve for salt and all-cause mortality rate here: https://youtu.be/amJ-ev8Ial8?t=555 . J-curves are interesting as they suggest the best place to aim is not the low point but rather a little to the right.

Im still surprised at that stress curve though. Cortisol and testosterone compete to be converted from the same mother hormone of progesterone - and cortisol is prioritised. So those alphas must have experienced decreased testosterone surely.

[-] FaustoLG 1 Point 8 months ago

Tell the females that we actually don't care: You reap what you sow...

[-] [deleted] 8 months ago
[-] AmCortanaAMA 1 Point 8 months ago

Does anyone know the mechanism by which the female mice were able to detect the lower testosterone? Was it just behavior? Or was something else involved?

[-] ENTP 1 Point 8 months ago

It’s because Low T males cannot protect the female, it is in the best interests of the female to escape and seek out a more suitable mate. Inability to escape the non-protective resource sucking male is stressful to females.

[-] Hamlet_Prime 1 Point 8 months ago

If this isn’t inspiring idk what is hahaha

[-] redpill77 1 Point 8 months ago

prolonged high secretion can also have suppressive effects on female reproductive physiology and behaviour

I'm starting to think "I'm asexual" means the same as "I'm a lesbian" for many girls. It's they're identity after living a life mostly devoid of alphas. It really means "I'm asexual/lesbian, unless..."

Women are focusing on learning what it feels like to avoid compromise. Fair enough, but they don't stop. And it's completely transforming our social and economic landscape. They're more informed of their princess power: flex your femininity around enough submissive men and you really can be a princess; as long as you can string along betas, their numbers alone will defeat any man to challenge your rightful reign as queen of {rapidly gentrifying city}.