I've been mewing for 2 months aprox, and the most notorious thing at the moment is that it pulls the skin under the jaw, so it doesn't sag. That automatically makes your jaw look better and more defined. So even if bone doesn't change shape after a certain age, you can still tense the skin around the jaw with correct mewing.
My bottom row teeth are a little messed up. My mom told me to pull out one of the front ones while it was lose when I was a kid. I was scared of the pain so I left it there. Until the other tooth started growing behind it, then the older one fell off.
I can't keep the bottom and top row slightly touching each other without getting a slight off balance aesthetic. I got it to be a little "balanced" for lack of a better word. I have a beard as well. Noticed the slight drop in my jaw gave it a more defined look. I used to keep my bottom row teeth behind the top row. This made my face look round without much of a jaw. It's a very small difference, noticable yet not at the same time.
Keeping my teeth in that position, I feel a little strain in the jaw muscle. I'd like to get it to be natural, like how I redirected my breathing from lungs to diaphragm.
However, the title of this post mislead me a little. I expected the doctor to talk about facial skin health. Still, I learned something from it. I'm looking for a way to even out my facial skin tone. Need to get the dark circles from under my eyes out. I keep my beard short, even though it hasn't grown out fully yet. Saving for a barbell and plates so I can exercise my neck muscles as well. That's how I'll be doing it. Any tips/suggestions? I need to source good skin care products. (would use tiege hanley but I live in the third world, expensive to get it here) Time to do more research.
If you're past puberty, you're better off losing body fat or growing a beard to improve your face. There's little evidence that mewing works post puberty.
while I think everyone should be mewing (because it's the default tongue resting position for all humans), don't expect it to increase your looks. It should be done to prevent having crooked teeth so you don't need to use braces later on and other harmful orthodontic devices that pull the jaws back.
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For me, it improved my mood in the morning because I had this habit of sleeping with my mouth open and it cured my ADHD
I never got diagnosed with ADHD but I remember that at some point in my life, sometimes I'd start acting really really hyperactive, couldn't remain quiet for once, always shaking my legs 24/7 etc.
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Then fast forward a couple of years I discovered mewing, figured how to have good tongue posture and now I'm finally able to just chill out without feeling like I'm going to outburstat anytime lol.
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I think it just has to do with the Flight/Fight thing. When you don't have the tongue at its natural rest position, you're basically triggering your nervous system to stay alert
I'm sorry to tell you this man, that while that proper tongue posture is beneficial to health,I've been doing it religiously since about 6 months now and there are no aesthetic improvements after you've passed puberty or something
It seems awfully feminine to give two shits about maximising facial aesthetics to the point of performing tongue exercises! Am I missing something? Redirect that energy to making money and stop worrying about appearances. You will not fight back the ageing process. Probably lose your shit when your hair disappears or your face starts to wrinkle or arse and balls start to sag.
I understand what you're saying. but you're missing the point on this one. People who do this are concerned about their bodies, we all are. And as I said, there's no downsides to it. In fact, what I've observed is that like focusing on breathing, when you focus on keeping a particular posture of the jaw and tongue it kicks you back into the present - mindfulness, which is vastly helpful and gives you an edge in the money-making sector where all of the others are lost in mindless routines.
And about the feminine thing, I'm a little confused on this one so if you could provide some inputs, that'd be great. I think that we are all conscious of our bodies and how they look. It's comes natural for most and when I tried to just look away from being conscious and aware of how it looked, it was simply exhausting and actually made me focus more on it subconsciously. Like when I said - don't think of a red apple, what did you think of ? A red apple. I figured out that I can't just turn this off, but I also realized that I can very well and instantaneously point in a desired direction. So now, while I am conscious of my body and how I am perceived, it's not to impress people or to make them like me, because I have my priorities right . Basically, while I still like grooming myself and bathing I do it because it makes me feel good, it's as simple as that. And sometimes, when I don't feel like doing all that, even if I'm going on a date or something which requires me to look good, I don't. Why? Didn't feel like it. Simple.
And yeah, this is probably flawed somewhere, because I'm young and stupid rn so I'd really appreciate your inputs.
It sounds like you have a healthy attitude about it (though do some honest introspection and ensure you're not rationalising any of this). Tacking on mindfulness to these exercises does not suddenly make them about mindfulness. The motivation in such postures as part of a spiritual practice has nothing to do with maximising appearances as the whole point is transcend such trivial concerns.
My point was that when all is said and done, money, power and status are all that matter in the sexual marketplace. I'd rather skip all the energy spent on maximising appearance and instead focus it on building those long-term foundations. Of course, you can focus on it all if you want.
But we do each have our own unique paths. I'm not about to condemn somebody else's choices. I groom myself for the same reason as you -- it makes me feel good. It is just part of looking after yourself. Where many go wrong is they associate their self-worth with appearance and waste tremendous energy (in this case, tongue exercises) keeping it up/improving it and then become desperate when their body starts to decay, anyway. It's easy to shrug this off when you're young but there are some important life lessons waiting around the corner.
The reason I say it seems feminine is because the feminine is generally concerned with physical appearance as that is how women are valued in society. Though appearance matters, this is not nearly the case with men. What is currently happening is this [feminine] anxiety about appearance is being transferred to men to sell products... and look around you, suddenly men are buying and doing all kinds of pointless shit to keep up with the bodily ideals being sold in the media. Even on this page people are talking about plastic surgery.
Where many go wrong is they associate their self-worth
Yesssss! Exactly!!! I wasn't able to articulate it as well as you did in this extremely helpful and thoughtful reply, but I had this same realization a few days ago.What I realized was that it's your life, it's your experience and nothing else matters. If you do anything because of fear of its consequences and not because you love it/it adds to something you love, it's just not worth wasting your precious few moments. The immediate next step that I took after this was that I put up on my IG bio that I was uninstalling it, and put up my email and number if anyone wanted to text/mail/call. It was a long story about what happened next and I'm on the way to school rn and I'll type it up only if you want to read it, I won't shove it down your throat.
Again, thanks for the reply and have a good day man!
It was a long story about what happened next and I'm on the way to school rn and I'll type it up only if you want to read it
If it will help to bounce it off someone I'm all ears.
Again, thanks for the reply and have a good day man!
No problem, you too! Be thankful you're coming to these realisations at a young age. It is paramount you overcome distractions before they take hold and become habitual. Many men waste their 20s chasing pussy instead of using that energy to build the foundations for the rest of their life. What they forget is that by delaying gratification they only increase it in spades later on.
If you're interested in material that will help cultivate these healthy attitudes I highly recommend J Krishnamurti, especially his book Freedom From The Known. Also Introduction to Tantra by Lama Yeshe is great for wrapping your head around transmuting desirous energy into other means (which you already touched on in your other response "but I also realized that I can very well and instantaneously point in a desired direction").
Yes! I am actually pretty grateful for this community, guys like you and the Internet in general. I mean, it's fucking magic the world we live in everyday. I try to practice gratitude everyday to keep things in the correct perspective but I regularly fail to do so. Do you practice gratitude as well, if so could you help me out with my inability to feel grateful for all I have most of the time?
And thanks for the book recommendations, it's summer vacation right now and while I do have my college prep I will definitely dig into those. What else should I get into to get redpilled?
I'd start with The Rational Male. That's the original book which inspired all of this. I'd also recommend Meditations and reading up on stoicism in general.
The power of something like Freedom From The Known is that it completely rejects all knowledge as Krishnamurti considers it just a reflection of the past. It can't possibly be a reflection of the present because by the time you have turned a thought into knowledge the moment has already disappeared. This helped me value direct experience and my own philosophy rather than jumping from one idea to the next.
While on direct experience, I'd also recommend Terrence Mckenna videos (search for Culture Is Not Your Friend) and Alan Watts.
Do you practice gratitude as well
Yes, absolutely. I sacrificed a lot of stuff in my life so I could reduce my full-time job to a part-time job and free up most of my time. I'm very grateful for the time I have now and the fairly low-key life I live.
Also, I have another doubt that needs clearing, if you'd be so helpful-
The redpill community believes with all their heart that women will be immensely attracted to power, money and status. I can't get my head around being so cynical though. Like I do understand it's not all unicorns and rainbows and that if you're a leader or something while being good looking, girls will come after you, but while I don't doubt the tried and tested nature of trp lessons, I just can't get myself to believe that girls are attracted to power, status and money. Help please!
I just can't get myself to believe that girls are attracted to power, status and money
What about hypergamy? Do you believe that a woman would drop someone she loves dearly because a better offer comes along? That happens all the time and is one of the reasons for the undercurrent of bitterness in the main forums as a lot of fresh faces turn up broken-hearted in disbelief.
All you need to understand is that women are people and people are generally out for themselves. They have their own agenda. In terms TRP, it is said women have a dual mating strategy -- they search for long-term resources and provisions while also keeping themselves open to the most alpha mates (that is what is meant by beta bucks alpha fucks).
Men have a completely different sexual strategy. That's all. It's really important to digest the fact that men and women are different and approach dating from a different perspective.
A woman doesn't see a single man like a man pines after a single woman. We very much have a sniper mentality and they very much have a shotgun mentality. The idea of TRP is to turn this around, develop an abundance mindset and start thinking about women as many instead of one (see: oneitis).
Women are attracted to value in the most vaguest terms. Power, status and money are pretty much the same thing in our world. This is how men dominate the group to become the alpha male. Women want to mate with the best man they can find. Sadly, for them, such males will generally not commit to a single woman. Thus they lockdown a lesser man and have sex with the better man (sometimes even tricking the lesser man into raising the alpha's children).
Just keep reading and keep asking questions and discussing things in the forum AND try to date women and build some real-world experience and it will start to sink in.
The deception runs very deep. Do not take anything at face value. Grow a healthy dose of scepticism and start investigating for yourself.
If you’re passed puberty then it could take 10+ years. This has been stated on orthotropics subreddit as well as by mew himself. I have seen Changes in first 3 months and I am early 20’s.
I need to take photos of myself. I only took a photo of my palate very earl early on. I’m 3 months in myself. Have had better nose breathing. Brow ridges formed in the first month. And now they are much more prominent. My jawline is and feels sharper even though I have stayed the same weight. My cheek bones are also more prominent now also. Wbu
My minor overbite is almost completely gone. My chin looks a lot more masculine. My jaw is a lot more noticeable from the front and side view of my face.
Glad to hear you’ve been seeing important results too.
I have been practicing for quite a while now and it definately did something with my jawline. But I am also the type of guy who build muscle fast and injuries heal very quickly.
Many people calling BS. And sceptical as I am since TRP I also was not able to find peer reviewed studies on a subject that even med students can easily do research in. The closest thing was
But again this study reasearched different tongue postures ie implying that there is not 'the correct' one only less than good ones. So the claim of having a better facial attractivness as an adult seems snake-oily to me. Please feel free to correct me with proof aside from youtube videos as fixing this could be easily achieved with persistence such as lifting.
There is a large body of evidence which indicates that facial development is in fact influenced by tongue posture. If you've ever heard of ancient skull binding practices as just one example, you would see that while the skeleton is solid, it certainly is affected by external forces over time. The main hypothesis that we see in the scientific community is that palatal tongue posture guides facial development in a horizontal direction due to the effect of light but consistent force. If the tongue is not placed on the roof of the mouth, due to issues such as chronic sinusitis, common colds, enlarged adenoids or tonsils, allergies, or possibly other factors such as bottle feeding and pacifier use (which are also linked with malocclusion), the maxilla no longer has this force, and instead grows downwards, due to the force of gravity, which would otherwise be countered by the effect of the tongue. It is not as simple as the tongue touching a spot on the mouth and leading to change. It's a slow process driven by forces over time.
The effect of mouth breathing on dentofacial morphology of growing child
"The upper anterior facial height and the total anterior facial height were significantly larger in the mouth breathers. Angular relationships of the sella-nasion, palatal, and occlusal planes to the mandibular plane were greater in the mouth breathers, and their gonial angles were larger. The mouth breathers’ maxillae and mandibles were more retrognathic. Palatal height was higher, and overjet was greater in the mouth breathers. Maxillary intermolar width was narrower in the mouth breathers and was associated with a higher prevalence of posterior cross-bite. Over all, mouth breathers had longer faces with narrower maxillae and retrognathic jaws. This supports previous claims that nasal airway obstruction is associated with aberrant facial growth."
"It was observed that the measurements for the inclination of the mandibular plane (SN.GoGn) in mouth breathing children were statistically higher than those in nasal breathing children. The posterior facial height was statistically smaller than the anterior one in mouth breathing children (PFH-AFH ratio). Thus, the upper anterior facial height was statistically smaller than the lower facial height (UFH-LFH ratio)...We concluded that mouth breathing children tend to have higher mandibular inclination and more vertical growth. These findings support the influence of the breathing mode in craniofacial development"
The skeletal pattern measurements...indicated a tendency to mouth-breathing children presenting a dolichofacial pattern. According to occlusal characteristics, only the intermolar distance showed a significant correlation with a narrow maxillary arch in mouth-breathing subjects. Based on the results of this study, mouth-breathing can influence craniofacial and occlusal development early in childhood.
"Mouth breathers demonstrated considerable backward and downward rotation of the mandible, increased overjet, increase in the mandible plane angle, a higher palatal plane, and narrowing of both upper and lower arches at the level of canines and first molars compared to the nasal breathers group. The prevalence of a posterior cross bite was significantly more frequent in the mouth breathers group (49%) than nose breathers (26%), (P = .006). Abnormal lip-to-tongue anterior oral seal was significantly more frequent in the mouth breathers group (56%) than in the nose breathers group (30%) (P = .05)...Naso-respiratory obstruction with mouth breathing during critical growth periods in children has a higher tendency for clockwise rotation of the growing mandible, with a disproportionate increase in anterior lower vertical face height and decreased posterior facial height."
"From the present study it can be concluded that the effect of mouth breathing was confined to the changes in maxillary arch dimensions. There was contraction of maxillary arch and increase in maxillary arch length. An increased overjet and deep overbite were present in these cases. The palate appeared high, not because its height was actually increased, but due to contraction of the maxillary arch. A higher percentage of Class II, division 1 malocclusion was seen in mouth breathers."
/u/theredpike thank you for keeping this post up. I have here above some of the research I've collated if you're interested but unsure if this is evidence based.
Thanks for this post and the other one you put under the other Orthotropics thread.
Speaking for myself, I see my face as being longer and thinner than it probably should have been due to nasal obstructions which in turn caused me to do a lot of mouth breathing over the years. I'm now more congnescent of my mouth breathing because of this.
I started mewing in Jan. (surprised it hasn't been mentioned much in TRP until now) I'm way past puberty but at least I can pick up good habits (tongue posture) now and prevent things from getting any worse. There was one article which said the joints in the skull bones don't truly harden all the way until something like age 70. Whether I can make any improvements remains to be seen, but to me it's worth the try.
In one of the videos, Mew also recommends chewing mastic gum, or at least a big wad of regular gum. I've seen bodybuilding forums which recommend this to build up the masseter/jaw muscles. Also apparently a lot of the modern facial bone structure problems is caused by soft foods which prevent proper chewing. Gum can make up for that.
Everything referenced in these studies does not directly or indirectly relate to the original claim of increased facial attractivness due to changed tongue posture. More precisely any effect in facial structure due to 'mewing' is only in correlation with changes applied during child growth, that is stipulated by your own sources. So not applicable to the audience of TRP ie young post high school men and up.
Go lifting instead man. Increased testosterone will have a real effect on your looks$
Mewing doesn’t work when you’re an adult and your facial bones are done growing. Still, correct tongue posture is good to improve your breathing and prevent snoring/sleep apnea. Only way to get a nice jawline is fillers or surgery on top of a low bf %
Are there any conclusive studies done on the subject showing that Orthotropics or "mewing" can in fact increase one's facial attractiveness? Because I seem to both hear that it's a life changer, and also hear that it does absolutely nothing.
The good thing is that there is no downside to mewing. It's actually good for your general health because it does stuff like prevent mouth breathing, overbite , speaking at an extremely high pitch etc. But man, I still don't know about the aesthetic parts. So you should probably try it out, but yeah, don't get high hopes
There is though—there is a cost for everything and it has nothing to do with the benefits. If you spend your focus-time and willpower on "extra" things, that's less available for the more important (Quadrant II) activities.
And what about the Pareto Principle? This definitely falls in the category of 20% benefits for 80% effort...vs. lifting...or reading...or researching MFA and buying new clothes...
Except that mewing is adopting the natural tongue posture that you should already have. It takes about a couple months of conscious effort to keep your tongue there and then it becomes autonomous.
I speak from experience, I started mewing in Sept. 2016. Was a chronic mouth breather.
I know for a fact that it positively affected my facial structure since, not only from observation and pictures, but also because my tongue used to be slightly scalloped when I started mewing due to my palate being too narrow to accommodate my tongue properly. Nowadays my palate has widened enough to make room for my tongue, and you can very obviously see how my midface has widened. My jaw angle has also slightly improved, although it is much more subtle.
Not only that, I breathe through my nose now, eventhough I was eligible for fully covered septum surgery due to deviation that impaired my ability to breathe comfortably. I breathe so much better than before, but I'm still considering surgery.
There's really no harm in it. I do it, made a habit of that + some exercises he recommends, chewing gum regularly as well as working on my posture over the past few months and I at least think it's made improvements to my face. Can't support that with any meaningful evidence unfortunately so take that as you will.
I certainly encourage it though, if nothing else at least just chew gum and work on your posture. Really nothing to lose
go back to the fucking blackpill or incels subreddit. No place for beta losers here. We are all flawed in a way or another, yet we try to change ourselves. The alpha male doesn't sit on the corner and cry, agonizing about the old unknown world for his shitty genes. Instead, he works out. He improves his social skills. He wears better suits to match his face. He gets better haircuts. What you are saying is loser mentality, and it has no place on this sub.
You know what the alpha male also doesn‘t do? Spending all of his time and effort to overanalyze every aspect of a female to delude himself that he is alpha? Do you think any guy out there in the world who is naturally/genetically gifted and has an easy time with women even know what this pathetic sub is? Like an alpha male would spent his time posting on reddit. Fucking faggot, even seeing how you write I'm sure that you are just an incel in denial.
I can see a lot of things you can improve if only you tried for longer. You sound like an incel do you know that? Being an autist in social interaction will take time until you stop being an autist and I'm already sure you gave up before you saw good results. Self loathing will never help you.
Shut up man. You can‘t do anything about your height unless you are willing to do one of the most crazy and expensive surgery out there. There is little you can do about your frame (build muscle and loose body fat). And unless you are ready to do crazy ass surgeries there is little you can do about your face and on top of that your hair could be receeding or fucked up.
So you want to tell me that a 5'5 indian with an ugly face and receeding hairline can fake his way to top of the hierarchy? That he can "just hold frame“ to be alpha you pathetic liar. Gtfo here cunt.
Yeah that‘s definitely a possibility but doesn‘t fit the narrative of this delusional sub, does it?
"Just lift and hold frame bro“ says the ugly manlet who thinks that he is a slayer, because his whole world revolve around simping for pussy, just to run a circle consisting of 3 ugly landwhales aka "spinning plates".
Bitch my dad looked like an ugly ass motherfucker, he had a lot of side chicks, got his game right, and he was 5'7. im talking about game here dawg, if you act like an autistic fuck even if you look like Chris Hemsworth they pussy be drying up man. I had a friend that's an incel and tbh he looks 7/10 but all the self pity and negativity dries up every pussy that's near him. Gtfo here with your pussy ass.
I find this stuff pathetic. I feel bad for anyone engaging in facial exercises. Okay if it brings you happiness sure okay whatever.... but really what the fuck has it come to.
EDIT: I apologize to the cucks that downvoted me who don’t even like their own Fucking facial structure. I am so sorry. I am so so so so so sorry.
I too am also born with a nice jawline, I don't practice this tongue posture either. By equivalent I'm referring to the concept of working to reap similar rewards. It may seem trivial but it's supposedly improving people's lives.
mateogon 5y ago
I've been mewing for 2 months aprox, and the most notorious thing at the moment is that it pulls the skin under the jaw, so it doesn't sag. That automatically makes your jaw look better and more defined. So even if bone doesn't change shape after a certain age, you can still tense the skin around the jaw with correct mewing.
Loze1 5y ago
My bottom row teeth are a little messed up. My mom told me to pull out one of the front ones while it was lose when I was a kid. I was scared of the pain so I left it there. Until the other tooth started growing behind it, then the older one fell off.
I can't keep the bottom and top row slightly touching each other without getting a slight off balance aesthetic. I got it to be a little "balanced" for lack of a better word. I have a beard as well. Noticed the slight drop in my jaw gave it a more defined look. I used to keep my bottom row teeth behind the top row. This made my face look round without much of a jaw. It's a very small difference, noticable yet not at the same time.
Keeping my teeth in that position, I feel a little strain in the jaw muscle. I'd like to get it to be natural, like how I redirected my breathing from lungs to diaphragm.
However, the title of this post mislead me a little. I expected the doctor to talk about facial skin health. Still, I learned something from it. I'm looking for a way to even out my facial skin tone. Need to get the dark circles from under my eyes out. I keep my beard short, even though it hasn't grown out fully yet. Saving for a barbell and plates so I can exercise my neck muscles as well. That's how I'll be doing it. Any tips/suggestions? I need to source good skin care products. (would use tiege hanley but I live in the third world, expensive to get it here) Time to do more research.
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eeem1214 5y ago
someone just unblurred her face
Casanova-Quinn 5y ago
If you're past puberty, you're better off losing body fat or growing a beard to improve your face. There's little evidence that mewing works post puberty.
vandaalen 5y ago
B... But... Going to the gym is exhausting, so I'll stick to mewing and nofap!
LogicalOlive 5y ago
Or just do everything it’s not mutually exclusive
stat1490 5y ago
Or jaw surgery from a good maxillofacial surgeon.
Jampak_5000 5y ago
I had this and it worked
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MarcosDomingues 5y ago
while I think everyone should be mewing (because it's the default tongue resting position for all humans), don't expect it to increase your looks. It should be done to prevent having crooked teeth so you don't need to use braces later on and other harmful orthodontic devices that pull the jaws back.
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For me, it improved my mood in the morning because I had this habit of sleeping with my mouth open and it cured my ADHD
Falv 5y ago
Cured your ADHD? It's a bold claim but I'm curious. To what degree did you see changes and how quickly?
MarcosDomingues 5y ago
I never got diagnosed with ADHD but I remember that at some point in my life, sometimes I'd start acting really really hyperactive, couldn't remain quiet for once, always shaking my legs 24/7 etc.
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Then fast forward a couple of years I discovered mewing, figured how to have good tongue posture and now I'm finally able to just chill out without feeling like I'm going to outburstat anytime lol.
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I think it just has to do with the Flight/Fight thing. When you don't have the tongue at its natural rest position, you're basically triggering your nervous system to stay alert
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bakamoney 5y ago
Tbh people on puberty (aka the most effective "mewing" phase) already are changing everyday just cause of hormones.
Same applies to 20+y olds.
Fuck my face before cut and now is completely different.
DreamExpedite 5y ago
I'm sorry to tell you this man, that while that proper tongue posture is beneficial to health,I've been doing it religiously since about 6 months now and there are no aesthetic improvements after you've passed puberty or something
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Psychocist 5y ago
It seems awfully feminine to give two shits about maximising facial aesthetics to the point of performing tongue exercises! Am I missing something? Redirect that energy to making money and stop worrying about appearances. You will not fight back the ageing process. Probably lose your shit when your hair disappears or your face starts to wrinkle or arse and balls start to sag.
DreamExpedite 5y ago
I understand what you're saying. but you're missing the point on this one. People who do this are concerned about their bodies, we all are. And as I said, there's no downsides to it. In fact, what I've observed is that like focusing on breathing, when you focus on keeping a particular posture of the jaw and tongue it kicks you back into the present - mindfulness, which is vastly helpful and gives you an edge in the money-making sector where all of the others are lost in mindless routines.
And about the feminine thing, I'm a little confused on this one so if you could provide some inputs, that'd be great. I think that we are all conscious of our bodies and how they look. It's comes natural for most and when I tried to just look away from being conscious and aware of how it looked, it was simply exhausting and actually made me focus more on it subconsciously. Like when I said - don't think of a red apple, what did you think of ? A red apple. I figured out that I can't just turn this off, but I also realized that I can very well and instantaneously point in a desired direction. So now, while I am conscious of my body and how I am perceived, it's not to impress people or to make them like me, because I have my priorities right . Basically, while I still like grooming myself and bathing I do it because it makes me feel good, it's as simple as that. And sometimes, when I don't feel like doing all that, even if I'm going on a date or something which requires me to look good, I don't. Why? Didn't feel like it. Simple.
And yeah, this is probably flawed somewhere, because I'm young and stupid rn so I'd really appreciate your inputs.
Psychocist 5y ago
It sounds like you have a healthy attitude about it (though do some honest introspection and ensure you're not rationalising any of this). Tacking on mindfulness to these exercises does not suddenly make them about mindfulness. The motivation in such postures as part of a spiritual practice has nothing to do with maximising appearances as the whole point is transcend such trivial concerns.
My point was that when all is said and done, money, power and status are all that matter in the sexual marketplace. I'd rather skip all the energy spent on maximising appearance and instead focus it on building those long-term foundations. Of course, you can focus on it all if you want.
But we do each have our own unique paths. I'm not about to condemn somebody else's choices. I groom myself for the same reason as you -- it makes me feel good. It is just part of looking after yourself. Where many go wrong is they associate their self-worth with appearance and waste tremendous energy (in this case, tongue exercises) keeping it up/improving it and then become desperate when their body starts to decay, anyway. It's easy to shrug this off when you're young but there are some important life lessons waiting around the corner.
The reason I say it seems feminine is because the feminine is generally concerned with physical appearance as that is how women are valued in society. Though appearance matters, this is not nearly the case with men. What is currently happening is this [feminine] anxiety about appearance is being transferred to men to sell products... and look around you, suddenly men are buying and doing all kinds of pointless shit to keep up with the bodily ideals being sold in the media. Even on this page people are talking about plastic surgery.
DreamExpedite 5y ago
Yesssss! Exactly!!! I wasn't able to articulate it as well as you did in this extremely helpful and thoughtful reply, but I had this same realization a few days ago.What I realized was that it's your life, it's your experience and nothing else matters. If you do anything because of fear of its consequences and not because you love it/it adds to something you love, it's just not worth wasting your precious few moments. The immediate next step that I took after this was that I put up on my IG bio that I was uninstalling it, and put up my email and number if anyone wanted to text/mail/call. It was a long story about what happened next and I'm on the way to school rn and I'll type it up only if you want to read it, I won't shove it down your throat.
Again, thanks for the reply and have a good day man!
Psychocist 5y ago
If it will help to bounce it off someone I'm all ears.
No problem, you too! Be thankful you're coming to these realisations at a young age. It is paramount you overcome distractions before they take hold and become habitual. Many men waste their 20s chasing pussy instead of using that energy to build the foundations for the rest of their life. What they forget is that by delaying gratification they only increase it in spades later on.
If you're interested in material that will help cultivate these healthy attitudes I highly recommend J Krishnamurti, especially his book Freedom From The Known. Also Introduction to Tantra by Lama Yeshe is great for wrapping your head around transmuting desirous energy into other means (which you already touched on in your other response "but I also realized that I can very well and instantaneously point in a desired direction").
DreamExpedite 5y ago
Yes! I am actually pretty grateful for this community, guys like you and the Internet in general. I mean, it's fucking magic the world we live in everyday. I try to practice gratitude everyday to keep things in the correct perspective but I regularly fail to do so. Do you practice gratitude as well, if so could you help me out with my inability to feel grateful for all I have most of the time? And thanks for the book recommendations, it's summer vacation right now and while I do have my college prep I will definitely dig into those. What else should I get into to get redpilled?
Psychocist 5y ago
I'd start with The Rational Male. That's the original book which inspired all of this. I'd also recommend Meditations and reading up on stoicism in general.
The power of something like Freedom From The Known is that it completely rejects all knowledge as Krishnamurti considers it just a reflection of the past. It can't possibly be a reflection of the present because by the time you have turned a thought into knowledge the moment has already disappeared. This helped me value direct experience and my own philosophy rather than jumping from one idea to the next.
While on direct experience, I'd also recommend Terrence Mckenna videos (search for Culture Is Not Your Friend) and Alan Watts.
Yes, absolutely. I sacrificed a lot of stuff in my life so I could reduce my full-time job to a part-time job and free up most of my time. I'm very grateful for the time I have now and the fairly low-key life I live.
DreamExpedite 5y ago
Also, I have another doubt that needs clearing, if you'd be so helpful- The redpill community believes with all their heart that women will be immensely attracted to power, money and status. I can't get my head around being so cynical though. Like I do understand it's not all unicorns and rainbows and that if you're a leader or something while being good looking, girls will come after you, but while I don't doubt the tried and tested nature of trp lessons, I just can't get myself to believe that girls are attracted to power, status and money. Help please!
Psychocist 5y ago
What about hypergamy? Do you believe that a woman would drop someone she loves dearly because a better offer comes along? That happens all the time and is one of the reasons for the undercurrent of bitterness in the main forums as a lot of fresh faces turn up broken-hearted in disbelief.
All you need to understand is that women are people and people are generally out for themselves. They have their own agenda. In terms TRP, it is said women have a dual mating strategy -- they search for long-term resources and provisions while also keeping themselves open to the most alpha mates (that is what is meant by beta bucks alpha fucks).
Men have a completely different sexual strategy. That's all. It's really important to digest the fact that men and women are different and approach dating from a different perspective.
A woman doesn't see a single man like a man pines after a single woman. We very much have a sniper mentality and they very much have a shotgun mentality. The idea of TRP is to turn this around, develop an abundance mindset and start thinking about women as many instead of one (see: oneitis).
Women are attracted to value in the most vaguest terms. Power, status and money are pretty much the same thing in our world. This is how men dominate the group to become the alpha male. Women want to mate with the best man they can find. Sadly, for them, such males will generally not commit to a single woman. Thus they lockdown a lesser man and have sex with the better man (sometimes even tricking the lesser man into raising the alpha's children).
Just keep reading and keep asking questions and discussing things in the forum AND try to date women and build some real-world experience and it will start to sink in.
The deception runs very deep. Do not take anything at face value. Grow a healthy dose of scepticism and start investigating for yourself.
KrustyKrabReject 5y ago
If you’re passed puberty then it could take 10+ years. This has been stated on orthotropics subreddit as well as by mew himself. I have seen Changes in first 3 months and I am early 20’s.
BigDino1 5y ago
Did you hard mew at first? Were you able to breathe when getting the back third of your tongue up at first?
KrustyKrabReject 5y ago
DIdn't know what hardmewing was in my first 2 months. It was difficult but got better. When I hard mew I can barely breathe.
chasethebanks 5y ago
I’ve seen changes as well that I actually documented over the past 6 months w/ pictures. I’m in my early 20’s also.
KrustyKrabReject 5y ago
I need to take photos of myself. I only took a photo of my palate very earl early on. I’m 3 months in myself. Have had better nose breathing. Brow ridges formed in the first month. And now they are much more prominent. My jawline is and feels sharper even though I have stayed the same weight. My cheek bones are also more prominent now also. Wbu
chasethebanks 5y ago
My minor overbite is almost completely gone. My chin looks a lot more masculine. My jaw is a lot more noticeable from the front and side view of my face.
Glad to hear you’ve been seeing important results too.
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vas_mhtro 5y ago
They still exist but it requires a shit ton more work. When I did this I saw change within 2 months
Battagliare 5y ago
im doing since a year and my face completely changed, i am 20 yo
nross368 5y ago
And the incels have officially infiltrated TRP
oooKenshiooo 5y ago
I have been practicing for quite a while now and it definately did something with my jawline. But I am also the type of guy who build muscle fast and injuries heal very quickly.
yomo86 5y ago
Many people calling BS. And sceptical as I am since TRP I also was not able to find peer reviewed studies on a subject that even med students can easily do research in. The closest thing was
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22467568/
But again this study reasearched different tongue postures ie implying that there is not 'the correct' one only less than good ones. So the claim of having a better facial attractivness as an adult seems snake-oily to me. Please feel free to correct me with proof aside from youtube videos as fixing this could be easily achieved with persistence such as lifting.
JosephGreg 5y ago
There is a large body of evidence which indicates that facial development is in fact influenced by tongue posture. If you've ever heard of ancient skull binding practices as just one example, you would see that while the skeleton is solid, it certainly is affected by external forces over time. The main hypothesis that we see in the scientific community is that palatal tongue posture guides facial development in a horizontal direction due to the effect of light but consistent force. If the tongue is not placed on the roof of the mouth, due to issues such as chronic sinusitis, common colds, enlarged adenoids or tonsils, allergies, or possibly other factors such as bottle feeding and pacifier use (which are also linked with malocclusion), the maxilla no longer has this force, and instead grows downwards, due to the force of gravity, which would otherwise be countered by the effect of the tongue. It is not as simple as the tongue touching a spot on the mouth and leading to change. It's a slow process driven by forces over time.
The effect of mouth breathing on dentofacial morphology of growing child
http://medind.nic.in/jao/t12/i1/jaot12i1p27.htm
“Changed mode of respiration was associated with increased facial height, mandibular plane angle and gonial angle...longer faces.”
Mouth breathing in allergic children: Its relationship to dentofacial development
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6573147
"The upper anterior facial height and the total anterior facial height were significantly larger in the mouth breathers. Angular relationships of the sella-nasion, palatal, and occlusal planes to the mandibular plane were greater in the mouth breathers, and their gonial angles were larger. The mouth breathers’ maxillae and mandibles were more retrognathic. Palatal height was higher, and overjet was greater in the mouth breathers. Maxillary intermolar width was narrower in the mouth breathers and was associated with a higher prevalence of posterior cross-bite. Over all, mouth breathers had longer faces with narrower maxillae and retrognathic jaws. This supports previous claims that nasal airway obstruction is associated with aberrant facial growth."
Breathing mode influence in craniofacial development https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16446911
"It was observed that the measurements for the inclination of the mandibular plane (SN.GoGn) in mouth breathing children were statistically higher than those in nasal breathing children. The posterior facial height was statistically smaller than the anterior one in mouth breathing children (PFH-AFH ratio). Thus, the upper anterior facial height was statistically smaller than the lower facial height (UFH-LFH ratio)...We concluded that mouth breathing children tend to have higher mandibular inclination and more vertical growth. These findings support the influence of the breathing mode in craniofacial development"
Skeletal and occlusal characteristics in mouth-breathing pre-school children. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15366619
The skeletal pattern measurements...indicated a tendency to mouth-breathing children presenting a dolichofacial pattern. According to occlusal characteristics, only the intermolar distance showed a significant correlation with a narrow maxillary arch in mouth-breathing subjects. Based on the results of this study, mouth-breathing can influence craniofacial and occlusal development early in childhood.
The effect of mouth breathing versus nasal breathing on dentofacial and craniofacial development in orthodontic patients. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20824738
"Mouth breathers demonstrated considerable backward and downward rotation of the mandible, increased overjet, increase in the mandible plane angle, a higher palatal plane, and narrowing of both upper and lower arches at the level of canines and first molars compared to the nasal breathers group. The prevalence of a posterior cross bite was significantly more frequent in the mouth breathers group (49%) than nose breathers (26%), (P = .006). Abnormal lip-to-tongue anterior oral seal was significantly more frequent in the mouth breathers group (56%) than in the nose breathers group (30%) (P = .05)...Naso-respiratory obstruction with mouth breathing during critical growth periods in children has a higher tendency for clockwise rotation of the growing mandible, with a disproportionate increase in anterior lower vertical face height and decreased posterior facial height."
Effect of mouth breathing on dental occlusion
https://www.angle.org/doi/pdf/10.1043/0003-3219(1973)043%3C0201:EOMBOD%3E2.0.CO%3B2
"From the present study it can be concluded that the effect of mouth breathing was confined to the changes in maxillary arch dimensions. There was contraction of maxillary arch and increase in maxillary arch length. An increased overjet and deep overbite were present in these cases. The palate appeared high, not because its height was actually increased, but due to contraction of the maxillary arch. A higher percentage of Class II, division 1 malocclusion was seen in mouth breathers."
JosephGreg 5y ago
/u/theredpike thank you for keeping this post up. I have here above some of the research I've collated if you're interested but unsure if this is evidence based.
krunchtimer 5y ago
Thanks for this post and the other one you put under the other Orthotropics thread.
Speaking for myself, I see my face as being longer and thinner than it probably should have been due to nasal obstructions which in turn caused me to do a lot of mouth breathing over the years. I'm now more congnescent of my mouth breathing because of this.
I started mewing in Jan. (surprised it hasn't been mentioned much in TRP until now) I'm way past puberty but at least I can pick up good habits (tongue posture) now and prevent things from getting any worse. There was one article which said the joints in the skull bones don't truly harden all the way until something like age 70. Whether I can make any improvements remains to be seen, but to me it's worth the try.
In one of the videos, Mew also recommends chewing mastic gum, or at least a big wad of regular gum. I've seen bodybuilding forums which recommend this to build up the masseter/jaw muscles. Also apparently a lot of the modern facial bone structure problems is caused by soft foods which prevent proper chewing. Gum can make up for that.
yomo86 5y ago
Everything referenced in these studies does not directly or indirectly relate to the original claim of increased facial attractivness due to changed tongue posture. More precisely any effect in facial structure due to 'mewing' is only in correlation with changes applied during child growth, that is stipulated by your own sources. So not applicable to the audience of TRP ie young post high school men and up.
Go lifting instead man. Increased testosterone will have a real effect on your looks$
trp_nofap_rewire2018 5y ago
Mewing doesn’t work when you’re an adult and your facial bones are done growing. Still, correct tongue posture is good to improve your breathing and prevent snoring/sleep apnea. Only way to get a nice jawline is fillers or surgery on top of a low bf %
flim4 5y ago
The bone isn’t done growing iirc because if you fracture something, the bone grows back to normal instead of just being brown forever
SociopathicCamper 5y ago
Are there any conclusive studies done on the subject showing that Orthotropics or "mewing" can in fact increase one's facial attractiveness? Because I seem to both hear that it's a life changer, and also hear that it does absolutely nothing.
tranquil_af 5y ago
https://youtu.be/zbzT00Cyq-g watch this video
fuze_me_69 5y ago
i guess it depends on the person. when i do it vs dont do it, you can tell the difference under my chin and i look better while doing it
for others it may not make as much of a difference
DreamExpedite 5y ago
The good thing is that there is no downside to mewing. It's actually good for your general health because it does stuff like prevent mouth breathing, overbite , speaking at an extremely high pitch etc. But man, I still don't know about the aesthetic parts. So you should probably try it out, but yeah, don't get high hopes
MatrixofLe3adership 5y ago
There is though—there is a cost for everything and it has nothing to do with the benefits. If you spend your focus-time and willpower on "extra" things, that's less available for the more important (Quadrant II) activities.
And what about the Pareto Principle? This definitely falls in the category of 20% benefits for 80% effort...vs. lifting...or reading...or researching MFA and buying new clothes...
smolzino 5y ago
Except that mewing is adopting the natural tongue posture that you should already have. It takes about a couple months of conscious effort to keep your tongue there and then it becomes autonomous. I speak from experience, I started mewing in Sept. 2016. Was a chronic mouth breather.
I know for a fact that it positively affected my facial structure since, not only from observation and pictures, but also because my tongue used to be slightly scalloped when I started mewing due to my palate being too narrow to accommodate my tongue properly. Nowadays my palate has widened enough to make room for my tongue, and you can very obviously see how my midface has widened. My jaw angle has also slightly improved, although it is much more subtle.
Not only that, I breathe through my nose now, eventhough I was eligible for fully covered septum surgery due to deviation that impaired my ability to breathe comfortably. I breathe so much better than before, but I'm still considering surgery.
BigDino1 5y ago
are you able to keep the back 1/3 of your tongue up consistently?
LarsleDarsle 5y ago
I'm 23 doing it for half a year and I feel like it's made a difference but the difference is pretty small
ReturningSpider 5y ago
There's really no harm in it. I do it, made a habit of that + some exercises he recommends, chewing gum regularly as well as working on my posture over the past few months and I at least think it's made improvements to my face. Can't support that with any meaningful evidence unfortunately so take that as you will.
I certainly encourage it though, if nothing else at least just chew gum and work on your posture. Really nothing to lose
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Battagliare 5y ago
thx for instantly classifying yourself as subhuman, less competetion for me.
RonieGarret 5y ago
I dont know why you are downvoted. For seeing reality as it is? The same community will shittalk on women for "lack of self awernes".
They will tell you "looks before game" but once you aknowledge you re ugly and have hard time you are labeled as black pill on the spot.
SATHelpPlz 5y ago
go back to the fucking blackpill or incels subreddit. No place for beta losers here. We are all flawed in a way or another, yet we try to change ourselves. The alpha male doesn't sit on the corner and cry, agonizing about the old unknown world for his shitty genes. Instead, he works out. He improves his social skills. He wears better suits to match his face. He gets better haircuts. What you are saying is loser mentality, and it has no place on this sub.
AverageNormieCel 5y ago
You know what the alpha male also doesn‘t do? Spending all of his time and effort to overanalyze every aspect of a female to delude himself that he is alpha? Do you think any guy out there in the world who is naturally/genetically gifted and has an easy time with women even know what this pathetic sub is? Like an alpha male would spent his time posting on reddit. Fucking faggot, even seeing how you write I'm sure that you are just an incel in denial.
ZeppKfw 5y ago
There's so many things wrong with this
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ZeppKfw 5y ago
I can see a lot of things you can improve if only you tried for longer. You sound like an incel do you know that? Being an autist in social interaction will take time until you stop being an autist and I'm already sure you gave up before you saw good results. Self loathing will never help you.
AverageNormieCel 5y ago
Shut up man. You can‘t do anything about your height unless you are willing to do one of the most crazy and expensive surgery out there. There is little you can do about your frame (build muscle and loose body fat). And unless you are ready to do crazy ass surgeries there is little you can do about your face and on top of that your hair could be receeding or fucked up.
So you want to tell me that a 5'5 indian with an ugly face and receeding hairline can fake his way to top of the hierarchy? That he can "just hold frame“ to be alpha you pathetic liar. Gtfo here cunt.
adminsaregayniggers 5y ago
he could go back to india where he belongs and fuck the 2's there
AverageNormieCel 5y ago
Yeah that‘s definitely a possibility but doesn‘t fit the narrative of this delusional sub, does it?
"Just lift and hold frame bro“ says the ugly manlet who thinks that he is a slayer, because his whole world revolve around simping for pussy, just to run a circle consisting of 3 ugly landwhales aka "spinning plates".
ZeppKfw 5y ago
Bitch my dad looked like an ugly ass motherfucker, he had a lot of side chicks, got his game right, and he was 5'7. im talking about game here dawg, if you act like an autistic fuck even if you look like Chris Hemsworth they pussy be drying up man. I had a friend that's an incel and tbh he looks 7/10 but all the self pity and negativity dries up every pussy that's near him. Gtfo here with your pussy ass.
AverageNormieCel 5y ago
Hahahahahahahaha fuck you are cucked beyond help. Yeah your 5'7 ugly dad was a Chad allright ????????♂️????
ZeppKfw 5y ago
You guys talk about chad all the time. Being open about being gay is all right nowadays you know? It's okay to suck someone's dick man no worries.
AverageNormieCel 5y ago
Yeah Mr Alpha, you are so extremely masculine. I bet all the women turn into waterfalls by the sight of your masculinity ????
ZeppKfw 5y ago
Virgins usually tell me that but nonetheless thanks man.
stat1490 5y ago
It’s cope if you’re not a child. You’re much better off getting jaw surgery for an airway and aesthetic improvement
bestsparkyalive 5y ago
I find this stuff pathetic. I feel bad for anyone engaging in facial exercises. Okay if it brings you happiness sure okay whatever.... but really what the fuck has it come to.
EDIT: I apologize to the cucks that downvoted me who don’t even like their own Fucking facial structure. I am so sorry. I am so so so so so sorry.
ez-upvote 5y ago
It's the equivalent to going to the gym to get a better body. Proper tongue posture has multiple benefits other than aesthetics as does working out.
bestsparkyalive 5y ago
It’s definitely not equivalent at all. Not even on the same spectrum. I have a nice jawline so maybe I just don’t get the struggle
ez-upvote 5y ago
I too am also born with a nice jawline, I don't practice this tongue posture either. By equivalent I'm referring to the concept of working to reap similar rewards. It may seem trivial but it's supposedly improving people's lives.