It's a tough spot at the bottom of the barrel. When you've tried everything and you don't see any way out you start to look for ways to forget about where you are. If you can't get a solution you'll look for relief. That relief often is validation.
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Many guys come to TRP with the idea of changing their status at their school, job, with their wife, etc... What the Blue Pill has taught you to believe is that status = validation. This is true if you've dyed your arm pit hair blue and cry in the library because someone said, "Hi" to you on your way to class. Having your friends re-assure you that it was definitely sexual assault and you didn't do anything wrong by sucking mysterious cock(s) through the portal into the Dick Dimension at the gas station. Getting validation from your friends doesn't change the fact that you like to suck strange cock recreationally. Getting validation rewrites your perception of the events that have already happened - allowing you to deny reality and continue to live in your degenerate ways.
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Guys can get caught up in validation traps in ways you might not expect at first: yes even fucking women can be a validation trap. When most guys catch oneitis it is because they have based their self worth on the girl they stuck their penis in. Similar to basing your self worth to the watch you put your hand in, or basing your self worth on the car you put yourself in. This is commodity fetishism, a consumerist based mindset. Put simply is this: You derive value from the things you consume (Cars, clothes, expensive restaurants, exotic pets, you get the idea).
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The hamster-ing looks something like this:
p1. X is valuable (Fiat validation)
p2. People who have X are valuable (Bandwagon fallacy)
Conclusion 1: If someone can obtain X they are valuable
p3. I have obtained x
Conclusion 2: I am valuable because I have obtained X
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So maybe this logic stuff doesn't get your dick hard but that's what it looks like spelt out. Here you see the necessity for people to hang onto X (Women, Compliments, A Job, Position, Title, etc...) as it is what provides them validation in their mind. The flaw with this logic is that you don't change whether or not you have X in your life. Buying an expensive watch/car/women doesn't actually change a person, it merely changes the perception we have of them and the perception they have of themselves.
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This is why so many dudes break when they lose their X. When you lose the thing that made you valuable you no longer have any value. The change in perception is superficial. There is no value, only validation. This is why dudes go so far to prove themselves to a girl - because they see no value in themselves so they can only search for validation. As you have seen many times before - this is the path of self destruction.
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The solution here is to switch from a consumerist mindset (I am what I consume) to a production based mindset (I am what I produce). The latter is the attitude of a man who holds true value, not living off a fiat based validation currency. When you produce gains at the gym you don't need other people to compliment you; you know the objective reality of the situation. When you get your own place with your own job for the first time you know that you have produced an independent lifestyle for yourself - you don't need anyone to confirm this for you. When you produce something for yourself or others you have generated real value: not just the perception or deception of value. Sure it's great to get a pat on the back for a job well done every now and again. In addition we don't exist in a vacuum and other peoples perceptions of us do affect us for better/worse. The difference between these two attitudes is proving something to yourself (Which cannot be taken away even if someone else consumes or destroys what you have produced (as you have the ability to produce more VALUE), vs asking others to play along with a lie to protect your fragile, toxic masculinity.
HenricusKunrath 4y ago
Production is absolutely key to genuine and lasting positive self-perception. There is a subtle, yet interesting difference in the psychological states between cheap validation (buying a nice watch) and production (building a nice watch). In my experience the former is fleeting and often tinged with the knowledge that it won't last, the latter is the only thing that truely satisfies.
Truedemocracy4 4y ago
I recommend furniture making/woodworking as a hobby to any man. Additionally, learning how to do most fix it jobs on your house and car that aren’t serious (electrical, major parts, etc)
Produce more than consume. Play sports more than watch sports. Etc
Gurisito 4y ago
Start by buying tools slowly, in no time you wil have everything you need to fix/build anything you need for your house. For woodworking i recomend to watch WoodWorking for Mere Mortals in youtube. As for welding there are many resources too.
TRP_Introspection 4y ago
It really comes down to conscientiousness and willpower, whether inherited or learned. The problem with people today is that western society is so bombarded by cheap and easy gratification that we choose to consume vs create. Or in the case of the post-modernist agenda, destroy and retroactively criticize, vs contributing and proactively bettering oneself/society.
HenricusKunrath 4y ago
Good analysis, especially "destroy and retroactively criticize". I have hope that times are changing to buck this trend.
TRP_Introspection 4y ago
As long as "they" are trying to destroy the "patriarchy" and positive masculinity as a whole this will likely continue.
RightHandWolf 4y ago
Excellent post. This could be used in a psychoanalytical way to get an idea of what people really seek when they interact with others. People that obsess over job titles, consumer goods and material things would be the consumers in a potential relationship. They expect things to just magically appear regardless of how much or how little they did to earn them. Most likely Socialist in their political outlook.
People that produce and create value are the true capitalists. Inventors and engineers, or even people that take an existing idea and apply it a new way add value. They don't expect the world to hand them anything; they go out and earn the money to buy what they want or they take the time to learn how to make it themselves.
I'm going to start applying this concept as a way of screening prospective plates.
The_BitterTruth 4y ago
Plates should be judged by their fertility rather than productivity
RightHandWolf 4y ago
What I was trying to get at with the analogy was that a consumer oriented girl is going to be a net loss to you. Wasted attention or resources or more to the point, wasted time. No value added on her part. A girl with a productive mindset is bringing something to the table - GNP as well as T'n'A. She adds value to your life. Good company and good conversation in addition to good nookie.
bjcm5891 4y ago
You've just put into words what I've been trying to do for a while now:
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FWB's and casual hook-ups only provide sexual gratification, but apart from that it's a loss of my time, loss of my energy and a loss of financial capital. Overall, it's a loss.
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The productive girl you're talking about= sexual gratification, children, support, company. Overall, a gain.
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I'm in my 30's and interested in the latter. I find it hard to get too excited about the former because I recognise how little it really offers.
Kaimoos 4y ago
I'll clarify something I'm sure OP just considered obvious to point it explicitly. It's not that you should only rely on your "I am what I produce" mindset and completely ignore external feedback. That would be dumb as it is nonetheless a feedback. Taking for example women: if you got rejected once, twice or more.. it doesn't mean that you must suck. It could happen that you make the girl feel too insecure by being much better than her and not showing vulnerabilities. But if that becomes parttern and you still didn't change anything, there's a high chance that you're currently just a blind/delusional fuck. And that's by the way isn't too far away from incels and co.'s frame.
The_BitterTruth 4y ago
This is along the lines of what I am speaking against as the value in the circumstance is that you have produced the approach and the conversation not contingent on her reaction
Emzedef 4y ago
Can you elaborate more on this ideology of vulnerability with examples? I've read this, particularly in Models and the 48 laws of power, but am still grasping it fully/trying to think how to put it into practice. I believe it could be a big down fall of my own
NabroleonBonaparte 4y ago
Vulnerability displays differently depending on the value of the person displaying it.
When you’re a loser and can’t offer any value, vulnerability hurts you because you’re just doubling-down on promoting how much of a loser you are. This usually happens because the loser isn’t self-aware, so what they tell people seems normal from their perspective, but everyone else just sees examples of what exactly makes you a loser.
When you’re alpha, you get put on a pedestal because you’re overflowing with value and people flock to you in hopes of catching that value. Displaying vulnerability in this scenario makes you relatable. People think, “oh, he isn’t some god, he’s a person just like me. Perhaps I could be like him someday.”
But vulnerability is a double edged sword. Too much and people start thinking you’re on their level and wonder if they can challenge you for dominance. That’s why you must treat vulnerability as a reward to those who prove themselves, because many people are insecure and entitled and feel that your value belongs to them and all they need to do is tear you down.
That’s why when in a position of authority (employer, officer, etc) you shouldn’t display any real vulnerability or else your subordinate will jeopardize your power
Emzedef 4y ago
Thanks for that. How would a high value man display vulnerability to women?
NabroleonBonaparte 4y ago
By encouraging them to be vulnerable, and then empathize with them.
Here’s an example:
(You= Buff, popular, with a nice career. You’re at your place with a girl you’ve been dating)
Girl: Tells emotional story about a time when she didn’t feel safe
You: “Gee babe, what did it feel like in that situation?”
Girl: Opens up more and talks about her emotional state in that scenario (Psychologically, she’s reliving these emotions as she tells you the story; she will literally feel sad and scared)
You: “That sounded rough... it reminds me of this time where.... (now you tell a story where you felt the same; don’t go too deep though. Bonus points if you end the story with how you overcame it and how you became stronger)
You: “You don’t have to worry about that babe, I’m not gonna let that happen to you again” (This is the part where you cuddle and kiss and she associates feeling loved and protected with being with you)
The example above is the mechanism behind comfort tests and how to pass them.
This is what the female imperative actually wants from men, but too many people have no clue what it means to be high value, so they try to imitate it by being blue pilled
INNASKILLZ2K18 4y ago
Just happened to see that comment. I like it. I agree. It's good to show your human side. I think people get wary of 'perfection' because it's so unrelatable.
I also agree with you, that you need to expose parts of yourself, but from a place of strength. Showing someone that you relate to them, but you overcame it, can help them see you as an example.
To me, it's also a quality of a leader.
Actually, now I think about it, David Deida talks about this in Way Of The Superior Man. Essentially, women want to feel 'seen'. Masculine energy is 'witness' and 'observer'.
The more a woman feels you 'see' what's going on for her, the more comfort she gets. You do have to lead her through it though.
Be the authority over her (inner) world.
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DiSysmic 4y ago
Possession vs. production. Never looked at it that way. Great fucking post.
DreamExpedite 4y ago
I did not understand that, could you please elaborate? Thanks!
DiSysmic 4y ago
Possession refers to the value given by others based on the things we possess. Say, a Rolex, a Gucci belt, a Lamborghini, as an example of extensive social proof. Relying on possession means trying to heal our lack of self-confidence through the validation of others. As OP has said, when you lose the thing that makes you valuable, in the eyes of other people, you no longer have any value.
Production refers to the value given by others based on the thing we produce. This stems from our inner abilities, our hard skills, and our soft skills. They stay forever, which means the asset of value is not your stuff, it's you. No matter the loss, you can still rebuild it.
OP is stating that production > possession.
embracingtheredpill 4y ago
Absolutely. Good point. I also think this highlights the difference between men and women.
I was falling into validation traps and was wondering what the solution is. This is a truly valuable post.
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herrazki 4y ago
''This is why so many dudes break when they lose their X. When you lose the thing that made you valuable you no longer have any value'' this is very true, I lost my gains because of an injury, I felt like s*** and my confidance wasn't the same as before. it affected my game so much.
ReUptheReUp 4y ago
This right here. Amen.
This has made me think about context and character. What do you think of their importance? Many AFCs or betas I know really allow contexts, especially when there are women involved, to grossly affect their character, so that they're never going against status quo - constantly seeking validation in every context, so trying to always fit in. I think it's important for men to learn the importance of always maintaining a consistent character no matter the context you're in. Of course one shouldn't be rigid, flexibility is survival, but to also not completely capitulate because you're in a context that doesn't entirely favour your character.
GarethBaleWannabe 4y ago
I find alot of girls have the consumerist mindset. They tend to derive value from the clothes they wear to the vacations they have been on.
RedAgeist 4y ago
Great post bro,
Really simplified, easy to digest. Much appreciated
DreamExpedite 4y ago
Wow this is amazing man and so in time, because today I was beating myself up over how I'm on a downward spiral from being full of emotions and resolve to just being apathetic and I realized slowly that it was because I was channeling my emotions from the expressions of the same of others. It was euphoric and while I'm certainly not back to where I was a month ago, you can be sure that I am getting back for sure. One thing I'm still struggling with, however, is the fact that I ploughed through the stuff I absolutely needed to do that forms an integral part of my aim for this year but now I just get too bored to focus on it. Yes, I remember my WHY and yes I remember that there is no other alternative but I feel like I've gotta change my strategy somewhere. If you could offer any further inputs to you already awesome post it'd be awesome! Also, I'd really like it if you would share your breakthroughs/goals underway on being achieved/hopes and dreams that you put forward as an agenda or North Star for the year. Thanks and have joyous day my friend.
The_BitterTruth 4y ago
As you can imagine that is a lot to put into one post or comment, message me if you’re interested in talking on Skype
DreamExpedite 4y ago
That's such a great idea!! I'm all up for it. Free on Saturday?
RightHandWolf 4y ago
I'll just repeat a really good comment I saw in another thread awhile ago:
You have to be your mental point of origin. Self-worth, self-esteem and self-control all begin within your self. Be the author of your thoughts, and the actions will follow suit.
DreamExpedite 4y ago
That hits right at home and I'll be sure to integrate it into my life! BTW there's this simple life hack I use to remember stuff that I need to internalize 24x7 and I think it might be useful to you too - just right it down onto your hand. For example, there's this guy named Gary vaynerchuk and he's amazing and one of his tenets that applies universally is a mixture of gratitude and perception. I simply wrote it down on my right hand for three-four days and now it's a ghost tattoo. It's there for me when I need it but it isn't there physically. Thanks for the reply!
DropDeadTyrant 4y ago
That validation is absolutely needed though. I hate living life without any sort of goddamn evaluation. I don't want a girlfriend, I want a trophy. I want some good looking thing on my arm to make people say, "that's the man!". I want a huge friend group posseying around me all the time so people go, "hey, that's a big man right there". Those are the things that elicit a response from just being. Those are what everyone looks at first when they see a person. Unless someone talks to me, they wouldn't know I writing all sorts of stories and shit. They wouldn't know I workout or spend my time improving my writing ability. They wouldn't know unless they asked. And 9 times out of 10, they're never going to fucking ask. It's the people that have physical indicators of success that get their validation. It might be years before any of my writing materializes into profit. What until then? I just sit on my ass and wallow? I need that fucking validation like a junkie. The only thing people ever say about me is, "dude, you have such a chill vibe, you're so unfazed by everything.". That doesn't mean shit to me. I want the, "damn, you're important" or the "damn I wish I were you".
Emzedef 4y ago
oh dude, but don't you realise that if you encounter a guy who's status you value higher than your own (which I can already see will not be very hard) who didn't care about those things. You would be trying to qualify yourself to him so hard, it would not look good for you in said high status males eyes and then you would just be obsessed with him when you didn't get your validation etc.
papunigga031 4y ago
Your entire statement is based on an idea that people must be impressed with you. This is insecurity.
Why must people know you are the shit? Do their opinions define who you are? You will never find a solid foundation or inner peace if you live life with this mindset. An applause always fades.
An alpha doesn’t need to impress. He doesn’t need validation. He just is. His motivations are not based on validation. They are based on his own principles and values. He does not give a shit what anyone thinks. He doesn’t need to impress you, because he does not give a fuck about your validation. If he is telling you a story, he is not telling it to impress you. He is trying to form a connection and maybe a friendship.
Men act on their ingrained biological imperative of advancement and creation. Act like a man, not a female.
DiSysmic 4y ago
Hate to break it to you, but you live in a paradox. A need for validation is synonymous to a lack of self-confidence.
On the other hand, self-confidence is the root of attraction. You'll find a general consensus that people prefer the composed and calculated man to the attention-seeking one. Chicks dig him. Men look up to him.
So really, if you make it appear as if you need recognition, no one will give it to you. Only by being productive do people get naturally drawn to you.
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The_BitterTruth 4y ago
Why are you looking for validation
DropDeadTyrant 4y ago
because i want to brag to people
The_BitterTruth 4y ago
Let’s keep going, why do you want to brag?
Edit: that’s what not why
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DropDeadTyrant 4y ago
because i enjoy being the bigger person.
NabroleonBonaparte 4y ago
Were you neglected or bullied as a child?
Why are you miserable without others validation instead of feeling complete regardless of what people say or think?
Hombremaniac 4y ago
Because what you describe can be a lot harder for some folks.
Some dudes are very good at earning money, buying bling bling, having good looking gold digger at their side, so that's what they do.
But yeah, you know that and wanted to hear his specific reason.