For the young men feeling anxious about their lack of action, take heed and find solace in this: the best is yet to come.
The New York Times recently published an article based on a study by Science Advances, a high-level peer-reviewed scientific journal (i.e., not "Red Pill myths" as some skeptics and feminist types may be inclined to say.)
The study essentially affirms one of the core life truths any Red Pilled man knows: a man's SMV gradually increases, peaking around the mid-late 40s range, before slowly declining and flattening out in their 70s. For women, however, it's pretty much the opposite. Their SMV rapidly increases from their adolescent years, peaking in their early-mid 20s, before steeply declining from the late 20s-early 30s range.
If anything, the study actually suggests our estimates in the "manosphere" are very generous. Here are some interesting takeaways from the NYT article:
"The researchers determined that while men’s sexual desirability peaks at age 50, women’s starts high at 18 and falls from there."
"Michelle Drouin, a developmental psychologist who focuses on technology and relationships, was not surprised by the new study — in part because they “align with evolutionary theories of mating” in which youth suggests fertility, she said.
Dr. Drouin pointed out, though, that there are also theories that suggest that “men are just less interested in earning potential or power, and more interested in physical attractiveness.”"
Of course, there are also attempts to completely downplay the reality and prevalence of hypergamy:
"Dr. Drouin stressed that the preferences of people seeking mates online reflect aspiration, not necessarily what people want in real life. A key finding of the study was that most users sent messages to people who were more desirable than themselves. Twenty-five percent more desirable, to be exact.
This data represents “the reality of dating preferences” — in other words, dating out of your league, Dr. Drouin said. That is often not the reality of dating."
Note that Dr. Drouin (and her peer, Dr. Bruch) is a woman. Also note that, where raw scientific evidence (empirical data, if you will) validates red pill theory and basic evolutionary psychology/ sexual selection theory, she is quick to interpret the data in a manner that undermines hypergamy and presents women as egalitarian butterflies (qualitative evaluation, if you will). NAWALT is real, people, even in academic circles.
What are some of the key lessons from this? Well, nothing new for the regulars but, for the uninitiated, here are 3 actionable takeaways:
- Don't feel so bad that you are not banging HB9s and 10s in your early 20s. There is plenty of room for growth. Does that mean you should sit back and wait for a magical moment to happen sometime in your 40s? No. Keep chipping away, sculpting the best life you can for yourself, because nothing worth having (including hot sex with hot women) comes easily. Lift, read, travel, invest in friends and family time, develop strong habits, cultivate the entrepreneur in you (or sprint your way up the corporate ladder, whichever you are best suited to), etc., and you can actually accelerate this process. Also, it's worth adding that there isn't a cookie-cutter formula for success because we are all different: some of you here are genetically blessed and are "natural alphas", so the climb won't be as steep for you (note how there's still a climb either way.)
- Your ex-girlfriend, female friends, and other young women around you will almost invariably find it a lot easier to find attractive mates. That's okay and pretty natural. Not only will the tables turn soon enough, women are smart enough to know that these are their best years and they need to make the most of them while they last — it's actually expected. Smarten up, know your worth/ place in the sexual marketplace and do the same.
- Have a plan. Never sleepwalk through life, hoping for this and that. Have goals and stick to them. When it comes to matters of relationships and marriage, that could mean holding off marriage until your later years because if you marry too early you may come to pay a pretty penny for it later. A better strategy may be the George Clooney or Leonardo DiCaprio approach of waiting until your late 40s-early 50s, keeping a harem of supermodels for a while, before settling down and having children when a genuine, bona fide urge finally kicks in.
riggedved 5y ago
I have no clue whatsoever. Maybe I’ll ask my dad someday about this, we have never really spoken about it.
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juju515 5y ago
my dad is the same... at 55yo has a new girlfriend every 6 months... all of them 25-35...
and the only reason he doesn't go under 25 is because he feels bad about it... (his words) lol...
riggedved 5y ago
My dad was a player too. He came to pick me up from my boarding school, he was 40 at that time. He gamed the principal's daughter who was 19-20. My school is an 8 hour drive from home. When he picked the HB9 up, she hid in my car when we at in the school premises, #slutshaming. She lived in our house for 3 days, which means, constant banging with my dad.
Later, my dad married a woman who was 10 years younger than him.
barnowl5 5y ago
Great story, but I've got to ask...how did he manage it? (was you there?) Or was it the case that she asked first? Just curious;-)
[deleted] 5y ago
I'd be like dad, can you share the love a bit? After all my dick is your dick, evolutionarily speaking.
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MattyAnon Admin 5y ago
Anddddddddddddddddd the obvious flaw in this study: no recognition of alpha fucks / beta bucks hypergamy. It's all "dating", with no separation of whether this is fucking-dating or provider-dating. Let's try and work out which it is:
The study is based on a single online dating site that is not Tinder. So this means it's trad-dating (men pay, women get free dinners and us a "make him wait" strategy all the way to marriage). In short: it's beta dating for women too unattractive to meet men in their normal lives and those looking to lock down a good provider.
So... sorry to say... you do not get more sexually attractive as you hit 50, just more provider-attractive unless you hit the gym and work out like a motherfucker... which ironically is what you will be if you don't lose a few pounds.
TheReformist94 5y ago
Wheyyy I was waiting for a remark like this from mattyanon. I don't see girls in their 20s queuing up for men in their 30s either.
I think Rollo has to make a new smv chart for men and women but with two separate curves for the alpha male and beta male. The alphas curve will follow the same as a females, spiking hi at 14 and keep rising,but will decline at a slower rate than the females. The betas curve will always be around 0 or 1, any sex they are getting is provider role I.e indirect prostitutiom
MattyAnon Admin 5y ago
Glad I could help ;)
I'm skeptical of the AF/BB curves though, because beta bucks is not attractive: it is exploited. BB does not lead to hot monkeysex, it leads to boring and reluctant duty sex. It's not sexually attractive, it's useful.
[deleted] 5y ago
Yea I agree that this is absurd. From a beta bux perspective you are most attractive whenever you have the most money. This just happens to correlate with being older. From a pure physical attractiveness standpoint, come on it's not 50.
People will probably give me shit for this, but if we are going by physical attractiveness only, completely ignoring that status, frame, confidence, game, and finances all generally improve as you age, I'd say it's probably late 20s for men with a very slow steady drop off into your early 60s. This is still much better than women who peak around 18-22, slowly decline until 30, and then fall of the cliff and hit rock bottom around 50.
Also it's hilarious that guys on the internet can look at a top scientific peer reviewed study on this topic and easily find the flaw in the methodology. I have experience in grad level economics research, and the way you examined the study and found the flaw is exactly how economists critique each others' papers.
MattyAnon Admin 5y ago
Society wilfully ignores AF/BB. The pretence that betabucks is sexually attractive and thus the same as alpha fucks pervades our reality.
It's easy to spot when you've been on TRP for a while.
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MattyAnon Admin 5y ago
Science is not allowed to contradict the narrative.
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EnragedParrot 5y ago
Anecdotal, for sure...but far more (MUCH younger) women openly flirt with me now (at about 50) than ever before. It's even a little uncomfortable at times, given their ages. And they don't know my age. It's weird.
Mind I'm not Mr Buff, just not fat.
Chosen_1_1162 5y ago
Being not fat at 50 puts you around the top 25% for your age, if you have good looks and a successful career you're easily top 10%.
lapeparoja 5y ago
Why uncomfortable? Embrace it, it wont last forever and if you want to fuck them, do it man.
SuperCrazy07 5y ago
I think you're confusing SMV with overall market value. There is no way I'm out-competing 25 year old Chad for a ONS in a bar no matter how much I lift (I'm in my 40s).
Now, if the chick were to think ahead to more than that night, she might pick me over some dude who lives in mom's basement...but it wouldn't be based on pure sexual attractiveness.
[deleted] 5y ago
MattyAnon has the same critique in an above response. The study makes no attempt to separate Alpha fux/Beta bux. So the data is confounded by other factors besides pure physical attractiveness.
PS2Errol 5y ago
I'm not sure this is the case. If you've been lifting correctly a 40yr old man could be considerably more muscular, powerful and fit than a 25yr old. There's a reason why most heavyweight boxers and strongmen are on the older end of the scale.
Men that age more often than not look a lot better as well. Compare photos of film stars at age 20 and then 40. The male ones all, without exception, look far better at age 40.
sky_fallen 5y ago
Are you saying that the bones get bigger over time?
[deleted] 5y ago
But if we examine the exact same person at 25 and 40, and they both go to the gym and do the same workout routine, and have the same diet, and get the same amount of sleep, which do you think will be more attractive...? 25 year old obviously.
It is true that men do keep getting stronger for a considerable time after puberty. Even as they start losing speed in their mid 20s, they start to get that "old man strength" that is complete by the late 20s. Testosterone starts slowly dropping off after 40 though, and though, and all else equal a 40 year old man is not stronger than his 25 year old self.
I will grant you though the variation between men is likely far larger than the variation between a 25 year old and his identical 40 year old self.
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bossman9275 5y ago
I've worked in a marketplace for 8 years and I cant tell you I hardly ever see super jacked guys with women at all, let alone hot ones. It might just mean they only do hook ups, but average framed men are with women often, and often times the women are hot.
lapeparoja 5y ago
Well, yeah and no. Of course a 25 year old guy will be more sexually desirable for a young woman, assuming it is a hot guy, and as 40-50 guy you wont be able to compete solely based on your body. BUT, if you still have a basic appearance, meaning you lift (NO GUT), nice haircut and dont dress like a dork the advantage wont be that huge. Bonus points if you are buff, have tattoos or other bad boy signs and have a cool hobby/job (DJ, club owner, architect). On top of that if you have learned your lessons you will have advantage on several items, maturity, DNGAF attitute, 0 clinginess , strong in the sack. The cherry on top is money, yes, you sweet the deal with it, you just have to be smart on how to spend it.
MayDay678 5y ago
Welp! time to save up for a hair transplant
NormalAndy 5y ago
I'd fucking love for her to rip my toupee off just as I was finishing off.
I don't want more than 1 night...????
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lapeparoja 5y ago
No joke, if you cannot afford it or if you look fine bald (better if women tell you that) you can discount it, but if you look terrible bald and have the money I say go for it, same with hair colouring. At 40 you have a 10-15 years window (which pass very fast!!) to still score prime pussy (20-25) afterwards it still doable but 10X harder, so go all in.
MayDay678 5y ago
I am not looking to be in the game around that age, possibly score with women in my field. I am thinking using finasteride. Hopefully, my career will make a hair transplant affordable.
lapeparoja 5y ago
As long as you want to have sex, you will be in the game. And as far as I know a man still wants to fuck well into his 80s. Priorities change , but dont kid yourself. you wont lose your love for pussy. So prepare for it .
MayDay678 5y ago
I am not getting any so, it will be a while until it happens. Work in progress.
banthrow 5y ago
I have a hair transplant. Hurt quite a lot for two weeks, then it makes me look 10 years younger, don't know if that helps or not.
MayDay678 5y ago
yeah, finasteride's effectiveness lessens as time passes. Just hard to find a reputable surgeon. I am not balding, but it's starting to hit. Rate the pain on a scale from 1-10.
banthrow 5y ago
Nothing some ibuprofen can't make dissapear, lasted about a week, woke up felling my head was in lava. I was not expecting so much pain, mine was a rare case, I'm told.
Another thing: You most likely will need several interventions if you have any significant baldness, and each needs about a year to fully recover, so think in a multi-year investment to make you look right.
MayDay678 5y ago
Finasteride might be what i stick to.
omega_fat 5y ago
Avoid like plague unless you hate having balls. Stops balding by castrating you chemically?! Best example ever for cure that's worse than disease.
MayDay678 5y ago
Yeah heard about it. THat's why Im going to the lowest effective dosage: quarter of a milligram. Don't bother listening to the hypochondriacs.
banthrow 5y ago
I took it too, and it works great. In fact, if you are not noticeably balding (if the sun is not shining in your head yet) I would stick with that.
MayDay678 5y ago
Yeah, that's what I plan on doing. Taking the lowest dose that is still effective.
lapeparoja 5y ago
A very very politically incorrect truth is that the highest peak of sexual appeal in a woman is when she is 16-18. Nature does not care about morality, legal status or child protection. A woman can retain 90% of that peak until 22-25, assuming no children, no cock carousel , no excessive drugs/alcohol/partying. After 25 the decline starts,a 30 year old is no competition for a 18 yo co-ed and at 40 she may well belong to another species.
ok_hornet 5y ago
47 here, can't believe the hot young ones I can pull.... It's so easy now.... I'm in amazing shape for my age but this is just shows how true it is
PeterPansSyndrome 5y ago
Do you keep the same approach as your younger self?
[deleted] 5y ago
Oh fuck no. What do you think? Is a 47 year old jacked man going to approach women the same as a 25 year old half as jacked boy?
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punchyson 5y ago
Lots of women want to fuck older men.
They might not want to marry you, but they crave what Chads their age can't give them.
I'm a newbie to red pill, not going to pretend I know anything. That said, I do well with much younger women by having mastery in something they are really into.
I can't remember who said it, but it seems to be true. Other than world of warcraft, there are groupies for everything men are into. Find them and plate them.
bossman9275 5y ago
At 26, this is the best thing I could have ever possibly read today. I will come back to this often.
rebdomine224 5y ago
I’ve actually noticed that in my own life honestly.. women do decline as they get older while men tend to keep growing into themselves usually.
zyqkvx 5y ago
Another reason young girls look up. They have limited time to get a man and with an older man they don't have to deal with watching a man grow up. Also, subconsciously, they want to outlive the man and inherit all his wealth, and feel skank-free. They are too short sighted to realize that man might be around for a long time in his old age, and will start systematically cheating if she has the libido. If she has no libido she will still live her life how she wants under his old crusty ass umbrella of resources.
Cantloginhere 5y ago
Also from personal experience, SMV for men does increase with age standing still simply by maintaining your BMI (and ideally hair). Competition falls by the wayside but another primary variable in the figures is women are perfectly happy to date 20 years up but only 5 years down. That's a big spread that puts middle aged men in the best position to capitalise on the dating market.
BostonPillParty 5y ago
Solace in time.
Feeling suicidal? Fuck you & wait.
Hate your living situation? Fuck you it will change.
Unhappy about XYZ? Fuck you, everyone is and the ones who stick it out will have it change.
I always took solace in the fact that time changes everything. Especially in young men. There are a number of life changing milestones like turning 18, 21, and every year so on. Odds are you will be very different in 3-5 years than you are right now. And if life sucks, this a great hope to cling to. But also make a fucking plan. Have small goals, baby steps that snowball into bigger ones. A less serious example but: I want to get a fully body tattoo, but I need to strike a much lower body fat %. I life and eat within a designed diet, and if I do it everyday/week/month I can be in the shape to get my tattoo in 2-3 years.
Time changes everything.
Jake_le_Dog 5y ago
Just fast off the fat within a few weeks/months. Why torture yourself with restricted dieting?
BostonPillParty 5y ago
Both gets you there quicker
Jake_le_Dog 5y ago
I presume you didn't understand me. I mean: don't eat anything until you reach your goal.
That's the fastest way possible, mind you, also the easiest. Don't be stupid and swallow the diet blue pill.
BostonPillParty 5y ago
Ah fair enough. Thanks for sharing your perspective, I’ll take it into account when I do my next review come month’s end.
zyqkvx 5y ago
There's a book called 'fuck feelings' that has the same tone as your reply. Good book, though the book drives the point too many times on purpose to try to get the message through our thick heads. That element both makes it a bit obnoxious and a bit of a classic [in my mind].
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banthrow 5y ago
It's true that men, if you don't go bald and overweight, and you lift, look better every year until 50, but I think it's extreme that you SMV peaks at 50. No 50 years old guy that I know can go to a nightclub and smash it like a 35 year old can. Even if the 50 year old can look better/more mature.
juiceboxguy85 5y ago
LOL there is a lot more in the world than nightclubs, most mature men wouldn't be caught dead in those shitholes. It's an odd standard you picked out. In a nightclub you are on her turf, surrounded by her shit friends, with her feeling wild and dizzy (probably buzzed), with her activities (dancing) which most men don't enjoy and should probably never do in public unless you happen to be a great dancer, and probably terrible odds with way more men than women. It's not much better than trying to get laid in a strip club.
lapeparoja 5y ago
Yeah, you are totally right, but just if you consider the physical aspect which is important but not all. Many many men, reach peak status around 40-50 yo, CEOs, CFOs,main surgeons, head coaches, James Bond type leader role, first important literary award etc. So if you are a 20-30 yo man, you have a nice runway to reach that summit, even if you are 40-50 and you work like hell I can guarante you there is good chance than you can harvest nice pussy within 3-4 years helped by the status you reach. You need patience, hard work and sure, a little bit of luck, but it sure beats the alternative.
watermelonswallower 5y ago
that feel when bald at 21
it never began for me
NormalAndy 5y ago
How many 50 year olds do you go clubbing with? Lol. They usually source much better pills and that tends to make them VERY popular when word gets around.
RedDespair 5y ago
Chateau heartiste used this to prove that game exists
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