I'm not sure most men even know how to be friends these days. Especially after graduating, guys get busy with careers and girlfriends and daily routines, and start to neglect the importance of building their tribe.

By "tribe," I mean a network of high-value men that enjoy worthwhile activities together. Pick-up basketball, golf, building businesses, taking cool trips, etc.

This kind of social capital - like other forms of capital - abides by the Pareto principle. Alpha guys can put together a foursome for a round of golf the night before. The majority, on the other hand, give up on socializing after graduating from school.

It is what it is.

...a friendship, no matter how long and how strong it is, will fade away once there is no longer anything to benefit from it...

One of the truest words ever spoken on this sub.

As I get older, I see the manifestation of this saying more often - “there’s no permanent friend or permanent enemy, there’s only a common interest”.

Nobody loves you except your family. Your bros or hoes promise to take a bullet for you? Sorry to break your heart mate. It’s all bogey talk.

It’s a cold world. Your best friend should be a steel bar (lift it). Read. Meditate. Develop yourself. In the end, your duty is to watch out for yourself and your family.

You've made the mistake of assuming that just because women are fickle and nothing lasts forever that love is a myth

And just because friends come and go and friendships wax and wane over time that friendship is a myth

Let me explain something to you, and the other youngsters who have recently had their childhood illusions destroyed: nothing lasts forever

And that is 100% okay.

That doesn't make it any less real or meaningful to us in our lives. In fact just the opposite.

Love and friendship are not myths and fantasy; they are the most real and meaningful experiences we have as humans.

Accept that no woman will love you unconditionally for who you are. Accept her fickle and hypergamous nature. And love women anyways.

Accept that no friendship will last forever. Accept that everyone will disappoint you, no one will fully live up to your expectations, and every frienship has it's time and its end. And love friends anyways.

Good luck

You can know love exists because a pet, dogs most commonly but cats and other pets as well, will risk its life to save an owner/family/tribe/pack member out of sheer love. They will run into a house on fire and pull you out or alert you to danger, they often die doing it. Tell me love is fantasy. Will a family member, neighbor, friend save your life? That is love. Love is being willing to give your life for someone else (whether this is a reasonable or sane choice I am not debating here).

Love created the internet. The love to want to share. The love of humanity with all their flaws. The love for a chance to evolve and improve and advance for a greater good. There is an altruism when you can share freely your mind to benefit humanity without need for materialistic or ego driven gain.

Love of freedom won Americans their freedom, they risked life, limb, family and wealth for it. They tried to protect future generations from having inhibited freedoms. They loved people that hadn't been born for hundreds of years. And all the wars, of anyone that ever lived, has been for love of home, family and property on one side or the other.

It's the small minded people full of hate and fear that will turn great things to evil means. That is another proof of love; it has a counter force. Hatred, malice, sadism, greed, narcissism, bigotry, violence, megalomania all types of the same anti-love. The type of force that doesn't understand humor is the best sugar to take with the medicine of reality sometimes, and it still will sting.

And if you aren't aware, families matter most, usually, to people with children (or at least they say they do - it's for the childrens). So when the people you know, including yourself, have children and a mortgage and full time job, they change tremendously. Love is not friendship. Love is getting more intimate with someone than you ever have before. Love is what makes monkeys and humans mentally deficient if they don't have a mother hold them in the first, hours, days, weeks, months.

Love is trust too. If your family and friends don't find you trustworthy you probably wont feel love(d).

There is platonic love, like a master craftsman might love their apprentice, mentor a protege, student to teacher, neighbor to neighbor, teammates, owner to pet. You want to engage, protect, help and share affection without attraction or sexual relations.

Love of art, in any form, and music. If you have never felt love of a song, where it hit you viscerally, then I just feel wish you can and do someday. Love of life and a sunset and mountain air or country hay or the sea. So many better ways to life life choosing to love things, love good things, love many things, love them good, than hating and saying it's not possible when the only limits are those you set on yourself.

Yes love can get twisted, and love can suck because it hurts, and it is how you can get the most damaged, but there are also no greater (sober) highs than love, of anything. Realize the higher you highs, usually the lower the lows. Try to find someone that matches that, the tempo of life you have set for yourself, the interests you have and share. I think you can find the love you are looking for.

Do not expect anything from anyone, but always be ready to give and receive.

This is the saddest thing to accept but also the realest fact.

Everything moves and changes, so do you, maybe for a lot of people in our lives, we ourselves are “at fault” for growing distant. It is how it is.

This is why the whole best friend wife/girlfriend narrative is such garbage to be telling people. You don't want to fuck your friends, you want to be friends with them. If you chose to be in an LTR it's important to be able to spend time with that person on a regular basis, but the primary goal is sexual and not a friendship goal.

I've always felt that people/friends fill a certain role in my life. I have some friends that are drinkning/going out friends, some that are lifting friends, some are common experience friends. They are basically like plates, if something happens and they fall off, well it sucks, but there are always new people to meet.

Friendship = relationships for profit + oxytocin. Just like most LTRs.

Relationships are all the same - they exist as long as market forces allow them to exist. As soon as better options are available for any investment you make - be it money, time, status, whatever, then those options are typically exercised.

Trust me, this RP stuff, in fact ALL human interactions, are much easier understood when you view them in a market based context. Do that, and the answers become beyond obvious.

I’m sorry, but how does your inability to sustain normal healthy friendships help me get laid?

And as an adult man, if you’re not adding another life-long friend every 10 years or so then you’re doing it wrong.

Jesus fucking Christ what has this sub come to. Stop trying to normalize your condition.

u/abdada wrote that friendship is usually not friendship but two or more addicts doing their fix together, be it alcohol, TV, vidya...

Tldr everything’s transactional. I’m happy for the people I cooperate with - if they have any hobbies or any personality. First there’s a common ground for cooperation. Then we can have a little chit chat here and there.

If you view friendships and love in the same category, you're an idiot.

Love is built out of desire, romance, achieving a common goal, trust and sacrifice for one another.

Friendship is built out of companionship. Nothing more.

They are completely mutually exclusive. The problem arises when people start putting expectations on their friendships that you would expect from a spouse. Friends will be in your life to level you choose to have them in, but a lover is either in it or not. If you go into life expecting the qualities of a lover from your friends, your in for disappointment.

Friendships are the result of comfort and convenience. I've known this since I finished middle school.

Aristotle said that friendship is based on utility. Go figure...

I can't really get behind this. Maybe it's the sports I played growing up (rugby, soccer) but I far prefer to be part of a squad than a lone wolf. Having a close group of trustworthy men that I can count on and confide in is invaluable to me. Talking about teams, the key part is to make sure you pull your own weight.

Admittedly I'm finding LTR, kids, job and location have made it sometimes hard to maintain these long term relationships, but so far my oldest and closest friends have been there when I need them.

Men in particular have two sets of friends:

1) Utilitarian friends. These are the most common. The work buddies, the class friends, to a lesser extent Army buddies (those have a different, lifelong loyalty especially if you deployed together) and other 9-5 archetypes. Once the utility of the underlying relationship is lost, the friendship fades away. It happens, and it is not something to mourn. All of us here would likely go have a beer with the cool dude from work, but it won’t ever happen.

2) Your really close friends that you can keep your entire life. Let’s face it, these seldom happen in the male universe. This can be for a multitude of reasons, be it the machismo culture where we don’t talk in depth to one another, busy schedules that only has room for utilitarian friends, or just a complete lack of a need to share emotional issues with others. Instead, a lot of guys just share the things we have learned.

Friendship and love is not an interchangeable set of items. The two are very different, especially once children are involved, but there are strong utilitarian aspects to love and friendship.

Your father isn’t wrong, but somewhat incomplete. I do know guys who have a best friend. I am not one of them.

On 4 separate occasions, I've lost what I considered to be a fantastic friend when he realized we definitely were never going to hook up. I've gotten better at spotting 'closeted gay/bi dudes who think you might be one as well' types and don't invest in the friendships as heavily.

all that said, I'll be the first to admit that I'm clearly gay bait

Absolutely. You realise why men tend to lose most of their friends as they get older and struggle to make new ones. In a 'traditional' sense men move around for work, get promoted and whatever else and drop friends consistently.

I left my hometown around 4 years back to travel and work. Now im back things are same but different. Friends have moved on (rightfully so) with LTR's or moving for work, the ones who still do the same shit just no longer appeal to me (im from a pretty nothing town). These are friends i've known since childhood. I'll hang with them because theres no one else. But come a month when im due to leave again i dont think ill make any effort to return. Maybe the odd christmas and holiday it will be cool to cross paths and catch up. But beyond that it would be forcing a relationship that isn't there anymore. We do different things, we dont have the bond of sharing school, college or the excitement that existed going to bars at say 22. You see a lot of people in regional pubs that have had the same circle of friends and life in their mid 50s and it for many guys it sparks a feeling of - fuck this i need to go and live new places.

One hell of a red pill right here. Preach.

If you were diagnosed with cancer and had 3 months to live, how many of your friends do you think would spend time with you and help you out till the end? If you can pick a few, which I hope you can, hopefully you'll understand that friendship is not pure utility, just as humans are not purely logical creatures. You have nothing to gain from a close, ill, dying friend, but hopefully you wouldn't abandon them as soon as their 'usefulness' expired.

This is what my aunt told me one time I was having life conversations with her:

Who were your friends 5 years ago? Who are your friends now? Are there any names that answer both questions?

I simply let out an empty “damn”.

People change and time goes on. Some friends stick around, others don’t.

What about Rhett & Link from "Good Mythical morning" on YouTube? Dudes have been best friends since 1st grade and are in their 40's now.

I’ve made this point before.

Putting men on the pedestal will hurt you as well.

I was Red Pilled on “friends”/Male associates long before women (wish it was the other way round but hey ho).

Same rules apply mostly just more lightly.

And both work in tandem. If like a lot of us you struggled through youth I don’t believe the vast majority of your childhood“friends” will ever respect you. They will either continue to disrespect you or resent your success.

Women pick up on this then act accordingly.

If you were low value the absolute first thing you need to do is drop your friends. They will always be looking to “put you back in your place”.

If you leave your basement it’s easy to make friends!

If there's one thing I learned in hs, it's that friends don't last. I never had many friends nor do I strive for that. But, every year I made at least one quality friend. Even though I still desire to be popular, deep down I know that having that one quality friend, no matter how temporary, is better than having 20 acquaintances.

I realized a long time ago, I don't have friends. I have family and acquaintances. Family is not always blood either.

This sounds like a badly modified version of MGTOW. The next thing you know somone will suggest not having any male friends at all but just being a hermit. I think anyone that compares male bonds to LTR's have no idea about true friendship. Yes, many of us dont have strong male friendships but we do have friends that have best friends and no real man would suggest its fake. I had my best friend for years until his decisons even ones of a sexual kind, seperated our friendship.... Male friendship are invaluable, and cannot be put in the same catergory as any woman/male relationship. Ask the greeks/Romans and your favorite philosophers....

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Agreed. Also, you touched an important point with love and friendship being inseparable. There's that old lie of "let's be friends" after a relationship breaks down, but if you couldn't work out as lovers you almost certainly can't be friends either.

I would say while you are right perhaps theres a more insidious reason for it ie social engineering rather than something human nature itself. I mean human beings are naturally pragmatic, most people are not going to go out of their way to be friends with you if it is costly for them to do so.

You also do not take into account the lasting impact you can have on someones life in terms of the influence you have in terms of giving them direction or just fond memories. Are you are saying its a bad thing that people dont bend themselves over assbackwards to maintain friendships?

Life is extremely complex and nuanced being in this "red pill" mindset is a good idea to maintain objective reality and composure but do not allow it to make you feel jaded or have a sense of moral/intellectual superiority over others.

OP correctly lays out the symptoms, but he misdiagnoses the disease. Fading and superficial friendships are a symptom of our atomized modern society, not the nature of male friendship.

It's just hard for men to maintain friendships as we age because male friendship, or more accurately brotherhood, is built around doing things together. The more dangerous and important the thing, the closer the bond. Sports teams, fraternities, military all create the closest bonds. Living and working together to accomplish a common goal simulates what it was like for us when we lived in kin based hunter-gatherer bands. It's very hard to re-create these things later in life. Corporate life is a fundamentally solitary affair. That's why these work relationships usually seem so superficial, no matter how hard you try to get close to other guys at work.

If you really think that all male friendships are superficial and for convenience only though, I feel really bad for you. Care to explain why some men are willing to literally die for each other?

In our lives, hundreds of people come and go. We call them friends and twenty years later you have no idea where they are and only thing left if a few moment of memory. Same with love. There is no love. There is no need to love a woman. And there is absolutely no need to fall in love with a woman. Just like hundreds of people you called friends both male and female, all the woman you sleep with, date, made a plate, fucked and left, or married etc are just passing. Do not be attached to anything or anyone!

Ever hear of "no such thing as a free lunch"? Everything in life, including relationships, is transactional. You will not live a happy or fulfilled life if you go around all your friends and trying to see what you gain or lose with each one.

As you progress yes you'll have crab in bucket friends. Recognize this behavior and cut them out. You'll also have friends that are below you in accomplishment. That doesn't mean cut them out if you enjoy the companionship and if they are loyal. this world can suck sometimes and most of you guys are young and haven't faced true adversity. It's nice not to go through it alone.

Average Folks make Average Friends, likely most friends you make in School/High School are just guys going through the same deal. Real friends are guys you might meet later in life and well, might be 1-2 of them. And yea the Masculine Struggle thing is real, you do share common ground and it becomes just like seeing a family member and like mens therapy to a sense..you just enjoy being in the others company.. you know? But most folks wont get to see that. Remember most folks are blue pilled, most folks dont care for more, just beer and sport or haha hehe hipster types. you do you, I do me. all the best.

Most blue pill men have the believe that they can own a woman like an object, and then get pissed they have their own will and don't want to be "owned" by the beta male.

But yes, love is basically like friendship, except you have some lust and serotonine addiction in the mix which makes you addicted to the person you are "in love" with. Same like your best friend, but you don't have any lust towards him.

I'm not religious, yet that's the lesson of Job. He lost everything, wife left in hot second.

For me the big ones were:

• Slowly realizing my entire family were California-style sociopaths and my purpose in life was to be the official cat's claw and scapegoat.

• Friends are merely acquaintances on a pedestal. Best friends move on to new locations to live out their lives; time passes and said friendship becomes irrelevant.

• The lesson of Job found in the Bible is that there is no God.

Totally agree. That’s why I have given up on the concept of friendship a long time ago and just roll with people that happen to be somehow connected to me at the time be it by proximity, circumstance, interests, blood ties etc. Even family is romanticised bullshit. I’ve cut out some family members out of my life because they bring no value to it.

This is spit on when you change and friends stagnant and you improve they tend to be less important since these days friendship is based wholey on gain. Much like female love.

I'm not totally sure I understand your post, but I'll throw my two cents in...

"Love" refers to a ton of different emotions. I think we're talking about romantic love, but even there, there are different kinds of romantic loves. I've loved every boyfriend a little differently. Every relationship I've had has started out with friendship, but it feels like it advances beyond that, way beyond 'friends with benefits.' Maybe it's deeper trust, vulnerability, or affection, I don't know...

I can't break down exactly how friendship and love are different, but I can say that without exception: friendship exhausts me, love gives me energy/comfort/drive. No matter how much I love my friends or family members, I'd rather be alone most of the time (I'm suuuper introverted). But with my romantic partner, whoever he is, I could spend every moment of every day with him. So there's something different going on psychologically (or socially, or physiologically, or neurologically).

They're definitely different things, but both powerful and worthwhile.

Nice read, and it definitely has some merit to it. I fear you may be looking at it too biologically and forgetting you can make a conscious effort to keep friendships if you value that person. I have a friend that I met in gifted in second grade and we became best friends when he taught me how to play chess (second grade me is probably 9000% better at chess than current me), and we've maintained that friendship still.

I rarely get to see him, as hes moved across the state. The times we do hang out though, it's like nothing has ever changed. We still make the same jokes as we did in 8th grade, have the same hobbies, etc. One of my best bros no doubt.

On the romance side, I'll have to agree on the biological part. It's hard for me to believe in love anymore, no matter how hard the oneitis hits me. But on the plus side of it, that leaves more room for me to do the things I want instead of for that one girl I was obsessing over.

Great post. I enjoyed it. Nice one guy

There was a post recently on the social skills subreddit by a guy who said he was happy he got friend zoned. Of course I got downvoted for calling it for what it was. People just don’t want to listen because they’re programmed by feminist culture and this idiotic idea that everyone gets to live a romcom.

It's a bit déjà vu for me coming across this comment. I had this exact conversation with my father last week.

In short, a buddy and I were talking about a friend of ours we never talk to anymore. We both reminisced about how we used to be "the trio" during our high school and college days.

Eventually, we all became career focused and moved in different directions. No feuds. No malice. Life just moves on for everyone.

I have noticed, however, that there is a very small group of friends I have never lost touch with in all my years. I may not see them for months on end, but we touch base somewhat often. The reason is simple: we all have many shared interests - whether that be golfing, fishing, weightlifting or real estate.

As life progresses, previous interests no longer become interesting; in turn, friendships fade as a result. That said, there are numerous interests and activities that exist across all age spectrums. So, I slightly disagree with OPs assessment of long term friendships - they can certainly exist in some scenarios.

That's why one has to be pragmatic. Especially since time is such a valuable commodity.

I've always sensed friendships are maintained in this manner after college is over and everyone is working. It's important to live a fulfilling life with aspiration and adventure in it, not just for yourself, not just to bring something to the table with women, but people in general. If you have nothing to bring to the table, you are useless. BB is a big concept even in friendship. To throw money and material things at people to keep them around shows you're a one trick pony that they will happily take advantage of.

How do you explain that instant connection you have with an old friend after not seeing each other for months or years? You pick up where you left off, it is like you never left. Just because you don’t talk on the phone every day doesn’t mean your not friends anymore.

Good, because I have no friends!

This is mostly true as I've experienced this myself. But there's another type of friendship between men - warbuddies. Those who've gone through hell and back with each other. In my case it came from a particular, very stressful, very competitive job experience where we, as a team held together to keep our sanity. We've all gone our separate ways since then but still keep in touch and get together about once a year to reminisce, party and share a few drinks. Our experience is the bond and our continued relationship is monitoring those still in the field and swapping stories/experiences related to it. I've not been through it myself but I can't help but feel that this is similar to what military men have gone through.

How is that different from "Love?" Hell if i know. I've tried extrapolating the concepts and devotions I've felt with these friends to women in my life and none compare. If both are attracted passionately that should help somewhat - but women will drop that like a hot potato for their hypergamous ways wants the passion fades (and maybe this is part of the reason they like drama - to increase "bonding" through intense, but in this case fake, experiences). Another shared experience like that would be raising a child together but in today's society of single mothers and the father only being a seed and cash dispenser there's not much room for bonding that way either.