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- Hide Preview | 30 Comments | submitted about a year ago by merel-- [Post Locked]

This is something I've been thinking about for the last week or so. We talk about SMV a lot on here and how you should "stay in your lane". I have seen and experienced a couple of things that will happen when you date up or down too much. This also isn't purely about SMV, it's more a whole package deal. How much does this man value you? And how much do you value him?

A guy with higher value than you is alpha widow central, we know you should not really go there. They don't need you because they can get basically any girl that is as good as you, they won't commit to you because they have so much options but they don't mind fucking you. They don't need to play games with you because they don't give a fuck about keeping you around, if you would tell them you never want to see them again they will respect that wish. Sometimes they don't mind fucking you again after you come crawling back.

There are also actually relatively good hot guys who won't use you for sex too long or maybe your behaviour has turned them off. You get a conversation that they don't really see themselves in a relationship (they mean with you ofcourse) and won't reach out again.

A guy with low value is also not the best idea because you will be put on a pedestal. Everything you want you will get, any time you throw a tantrum he wil bend to your will. You will lose respect for him very easily and won't see him as a 'real man'. So, not an ideal situation.

But there's one more thing that might happen with lower value guys, they will artificially inflate their worth. They will start playing you. They will make you insecure and give you the feeling you need them more than they need you. If you tell these guys you never want to see or speak to them again, they will act like they agree for a little bit, maybe a week, maybe a month, but they will be back. They will try to get some of you again. Not necessarily sex, but also a good meal or a phone call or text exchange (attention). These guys are terrified that you will run away as soon as they express their true feelings or stop playing games because they feel they aren't good enough. They NEED to be in control or you won't be obsessed with them anymore and they're right. I like to call this the faux-alpha widow, because you feel like he is better than you but he really isn't.

This behaviour can also appear on guys who would be good enough for you to date but got badly burned by previous relationships and are freaked out by commitment.

I feel like these are the most common scenarios of dating men that aren't in your league. Do you guys have had any differing experiences?

[-] highoncatnipbrownies 3 Points about a year ago

But there's one more thing that might happen with lower value guys, they will artificially inflate their worth. They will start playing you. They will make you insecure and give you the feeling you need them more than they need you.

You just described my Ex Husband to the letter....... OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I married down... That's what happened, I married down, he immediately started playing which threw my anxious attachment self into a panic and he kept me there until he found a better option ^(TM) and threw me away... then his better option dropped him like a hot rock in a matter of days and he of course came back saying he made a mistake ^(TM) ... bla bla bla and the rest is history.

Wow you have just opened my eyes to something I have never seen. THANK YOU!



[-] LawyerInTheMaking 3 Points about a year ago

> A guy with higher value than you is alpha widow central, we know you should not really go there.


hi value guys (particularly high smv/low rmv and high smv/high rmv) are few and far between ( women only find like 20% of me attractive i think). Most women who know that they should not go there learn after the fact dont really accept it until after the fact. Many women (young in particular) know that these high value men have options and exercise those options but if you gave them a choice between being a temporary option to a high value man or a longterm option to a low value man, the former wins. I cant tell you how many times ive heard/read a girl saying something on the lines of "i knew i wasnt going to last long but i kind of hoped it would". A day of alpha beats a lifetime of beta, as i like to say.


> But there's one more thing that might happen with lower value guys, they will artificially inflate their worth.


Yes and no. keep in mind that the vast majority of me are not naturally high value. low value men have to inflate/increase their value because to have the quality of options that the high value guys have, he doesnt really have a choice. For example, you cant change things like height but you change your body to be fit. Whatever you can do to improve your odds, you do.

The low value guys that you describe as artificially inflating their value, they arent actually changing their value. what they are doing is trying to change the perception of their value. They are the same person but now they are attempting to manipulate their perceived value in womens eyes. See what i mean?

[-] moonchildcountrygirl 2 Points about a year ago

A lot of SMV is carried through how you present. Self care, sweetness, confidence, and a frequent, sincere smile / laugh projects a lot of inner beauty that shifts the interest in a guys mind to that of a LTR. Rather than hyperfocus on your / his numerical value look for the guy who’s confident and knows his worth but isn’t shy about making his attraction to you known to make you feel beautiful. It won’t matter whether you’re totally aligned as long as both of your self esteems are independently in check and theres attraction, physically and chemically. Don’t overthink it

[-] merel-- 2 Points about a year ago

But it has to be alligned. If the guy thinks he is worth more than the girl or the girl thinks she is more valuable or whatever it won't be a good relationship.

I also don't really buy into everybody being a x/10 it's a lot more subjective than that.

[-] moonchildcountrygirl 0 Points about a year ago

I think (assuming you’re a woman) that with a receptive mindset vetting the offers that come your way with the intent of a LTR things will naturally fall into place on that scale. The guys you aren’t attracted to will fail the vetting process and the one you are / fear are too attractive will have to jump through the hoops of initiating and following through and meeting your expectations of something more serious than a casual fling.

[-] merel-- 1 Point about a year ago

Seeing the same amount of value in your partner as they see in you is very important. Good to vet for that. I also wasn't really talking about myself, just situations I have seen with friends etc.

[-] zionbeers 6 Points about a year ago

One reason to encourage younger women to keep an eye out for good men during college is because those years are often when women have high RMV, and men are starting to manifest their lifelong values but have yet to "realize" their full RMV. It was no surprise to me that all of my fiance's friends (who tended to be the tall, ambitious types and were on the same sports team) were getting locked down by smart, good-looking women right at the end of college. I consider myself incredibly fortunate that I caught the eye of a good guy coming off his "casual sex" years who was on the hunt for a relationship, because lord knows my RMV certainly hasn't increased much since then; fiance's RMV definitely has.

[-] aussiedollface2 8 Points about a year ago

I don’t know personally, although I have seen many women date down, presumably it makes them feel safer and like the guy will never leave or cheat. Then that’s exactly what happens! I think a woman should aim to dat equally or up, not down, because it creates a power imbalance and the man slowly builds resentment then tried to act out xo

[-] merel-- 1 Point about a year ago

I also prefer to date down in looks... But very handsome men generally aren't as attractive to me in other ways than just looks.

[-] kaiserschmarrrnn 6 Points about a year ago

Interestingly, I have had these exact two scenarios this year. I wish I could have read this before having to disappoint the guy with lower SMV and losing some self respect for fooling around with the other guy. It’s quite stunning how this seems to be a universal thing.

[-] plein_old 14 Points about a year ago

A guy with higher value than you is alpha widow central... they won't commit to you because they have so much options

I think there could be exceptions, maybe. Personally I admire Philip Rivers--he's probably worth over $100 million, he's a famous athlete, and if I was a woman I would think he was quite handsome. However he married his high school sweetheart.

I think partly because of his religious beliefs, he thinks it's much better to love one woman than to spend a night with many different women.

Also have you ever heard of Paul Newman? He might be before the time of many people on here. Anyway in his day he was considered a rich, famous movie star & sex symbol, but he was known for never being interested in women other than his wife, which people thought was weird considering the industry he worked in. When asked why, he said that he'd never met a woman who was as good as his wife or as well-suited to him.

However, it's possible that Philip Rivers was a broke "nobody" when he first met his girlfriend, haha. So maybe RMV plays a role even in that situation.

[-] merel-- 5 Points about a year ago

This was more about girls who are in the beginning stages of dating, not really when they are already married.

[-] CalvinRichland 6 Points about a year ago

I would look at it a bit differently. Perhaps it is what you let the alpha get away with that creates the issue not the difference alone.

I would willingly date lower for good compatibility and values. You can't always predict a guy's goal or even his type.

The way you properly catch a higher SMV guy is to not change the way you treat them or more importantly let them treat you. This will lead you to having sex with much less of them and you should hold them tightly to your standards for behavior.

[-] merel-- 4 Points about a year ago

I also wasn't talking just about SMV, I was more talking about the person as a whole, the complete package deal.

I think game playing is more beta behaviour than alpha behaviour tbh. A true alpha doesn't need to play games to get and keep women. What the players do is act like they aren't interested but they actually are. When a true high value man isn't interested he just isn't interested, he isn't acting or pretending but if you want to give him free sex why would he turn that down?

[-] [deleted] about a year ago
[-] pearlsandstilettos 1 Point about a year ago

RPW is really not the place for men new to RP. The focus is on RP from the women's perspective and men here have to be able to understand and put into practice RP from the men's side before they can give helpful advice to the women. r/TheRedPill is probably a better place for you to start out.

[-] [deleted] about a year ago
[-] pearlsandstilettos 2 Points about a year ago

The point is that RPW is not for men. The men who are here should have their lives figured out already. Your comments are mostly about your own desires and journey and that doesn't belong on RPW. If you are a man, and you aren't here to give advice, then you don't belong here.

[-] EclecticRenaissance 1 Point about a year ago

Alright I just read your community standards. I just assumed I shouldn't be a dick & that would suffice. I saw Red Pill Women & thought "Holy shet they exist?" but ahh...point taken. I'll lurk for a while, STFU, & SFTU.

[-] CalvinRichland 1 Point about a year ago

Yes, and that is partially my point you cant know the whole package from the outside nor can you know for sure their goals either unless you find out.

Many guys date purely for looks, but that is changing and does as men age too.

[-] humanbynature 25 Points about a year ago

This hits home for me. I get comments all the time from girlfriends like "You can do way better than him" "You really think he's hot?" and it makes me question my choices a lot. I kid you not, some random girl at a club one time came up to me in front of the guy I was dancing and chatting with (me and my friends met him that day at a grad school meet-and-greet event and invited him out in our student group) and said to both of us "You're way hotter than him!!!" I couldn't believe a stranger said this to me in front of him! He was a tall, clean cut guy who graduated from Brown...

Then everyone (even my parents) harped on me because my boyfriend was the same height as me. He was fit and I found him super attractive so the height didn't bother me at all. My friends couldn't believe I found him "hot". I think this ex was like that "faux-alpha widow" you speak of because he called a few times months after we broke up and asked to have lunch twice. While we were dating, our dynamic was that I was a naive little girl and he was the strong businessman even though I put in countless hours helping him with presentations and attending all his work-related and networking events. I was so insecure and not myself by the end of the relationship and everyone around me noticed.

I just recently broke it off with someone after a month because he stood me up and didn't apologize or offer to reschedule...classic "I'm interested, but don't have time." Completely understandable for a mid-20s tech guy, but I can't do it half-ass. I'm either all in or all out. I thought he was a total catch.... again I heard "You're hotter than him." He was smart, very tall and good looking??? I really liked his personality. At first I thought girls have WAY too high of standards these days, but even a straight male coworker (and my straight male cousin*) agreed that I'm aiming low. At this point, I'm at a loss of what my "league" even is. Maybe I have a lower perception of myself than others do because objectively hot guys make me nervous, and I rule them out immediately because I don't think I stand a chance.

[-] Vik93 1 Point about a year ago

You hear that because when women go through a break up they have a lot more emotional support. Every girl I've seen that just goes through a breakup gets showered with "you were so much better then him anyways." Its a societal standard. Doesn't mean its true, doesn't mean its not true.

When I broke up with my ex for being abusive and manipulative I know people told her that even though I was dating down.


[-] humanbynature 1 Point about a year ago

You make a really good point, but all of these comments were said before any sort of break up or break off. Actually many of these comments came at the height of my excitement over meeting these people. I mean even some random woman thought I HAD to know that the guy I was just TALKING to was apparently beneath my station. I didn't see it like that at all. When I show my friends pictures of these men they say things like "....he's cute" or even "eh you can do better" while I'm gushing about how awesome that person is and how attractive I think they are. I think at the end of the day I need to be confident enough to judge high or low value/league for myself.

[-] Vik93 1 Point about a year ago

yeah, my parents and family never showed alot of positive reinforcement for my exes, in certain cases they were right and other cases probably came from the fact that they don't think anyone is good enough for there son lol...and I agree with the last sentence of your statement

[-] yamkatasi 7 Points about a year ago

I have a tip for getting over being nervous around hot guys. Try to think of their good looks as only a part of them or a mask. Hot guys command respect easily without having to work for and this usually makes them lax about other aspects of being a good captain. So instead focus on other aspects of the guy and vet him. This way you are not the only one being assessed and it takes away some of the pressure.

Also hot guys are used to women fawning all over them. So when you are able to maintain your dignity it can pique the interest of a True Captain ;)

[-] merel-- 8 Points about a year ago

Yeah, it fucking sucks. They treat you in such a way that you get addicted to their attention. But personality and ambition is also important for a mans value in my opinion. Just don't accept mind games, from anybody.

[-] durtyknees 29 Points about a year ago

I've never concerned myself with dating up/down. What I aim for is a man who shares the same mindset.

Mindset is similar to values and worldview, but the same values/worldview would be interpreted/would manifest very differently when making decisions or taking action (how you put it to practice) with different mindsets.

Mindset is not only a better measure of a person's potential, it also determines how compatible you are when you communicate/connect.

It's much easier for someone to understand what you mean, despite whatever words you choose, when they can relate to the way you frame concepts and ideas, because context matters, and context rely on a person's ability to perceive and understand it in the first place. After all, effective communication is more than just words.

When you can minimize communication problems, you've already eliminated more than half of any potential issues you'll ever have in a relationship (assuming both parties are pulling their own weight).

Most of all, a man with a mindset compatible with me, is also a man whose value I can raise as his life-partner, because you amplify what (who) you resonate with. Abundance isn't just for men, but we don't speak of abundance for women in RP subs because it doesn't benefit men, and we wouldn't want to ruin their illusion that this sub is full of unicorns, right? :p

[-] girlwithabike 9 Points about a year ago

but we don't speak of abundance for women in RP subs because it doesn't benefit men, and we wouldn't want to ruin their illusion that this sub is full of unicorns, right?

We're either unicorns or AWALT depending on how much they agree or disagree in any particular exchange :-)

I believe that we don't talk about abundance for two reasons. 1. RP generally springs from a male framework. In that framework, they are looking at women's ability to get sex easily, assuming this is what women want (because it is what men want) and stating "women naturally have abundance mentality". This fails to recognize that what we ultimately want is commitment and so easy NSA sex is meaningless. Applied to commitment, few women have abundance. 2. There are women who come in thinking that they can have casual partners and settle down when they want. This would be abundance but it can be a risky proposition.

It's built into vetting in a way though. Through vetting, it should be the case that if Guy A has too many flaws, you cut him loose and move on to Guy B fairly quickly.

I've never concerned myself with dating up/down.

This though. A lot of this. The reason that this concept "works" in RP terms (women date up & men date down) is that we're considering different things. This is why there is the stereotype of the hot woman with the very average looking wealthy man. Women can date up as in "better than her in terms of career or some other status marker" and be quite happy. Men can date up as in "more physically attractive than him". Both could be blissfully happy if their values (mindset, worldview) are compatible.

So it's best to scrap the concept of dating up / down and look more at what attracts you and if you are compatible.

And I find your idea of mindset to be really intriguing. I've never considered it as intentional vetting criteria. However, when Husband and I both took the test for our Big 5 personality traits, mine ended up being a slightly softened version of his. We do not have identical thought processes and worldviews but we were surprisingly similar.

[-] durtyknees 9 Points about a year ago

We're either unicorns or AWALT depending on how much they agree or disagree in any particular exchange :-)

haha True, true.

Applied to commitment, few women have abundance.

A self-imposed limitation, imo.

Before I started dating my now-husband, I've always been the one squeamish about commitment because of my personal values regarding marriage --- if I marry, it's for life (ie: I'll have to murder someone if I'm unhappy, and murder is such a chore :p).

I often wonder if commitment is easier to have in abundance if you're not "thirsty" for it, similar to how men who aren't obviously thirsty for sex are more likely to get sex. Of course you still need "game" to get what you want, but the charming lack of "thirst" probably plays a huge factor in how you "game" in the first place. For example, a woman without "thirst" for commitment wouldn't impose limits on her man's freedom --- instead of insisting on monogamy, she'd learn how to become his ideal partner to the point where other (objectively more attractive) women are simply disposable distractions in his eyes.

As you've heard me babble about often: "like attracts like" is a rule I've yet to find any exception to. Similarities are sometimes obvious, and sometimes not, but people stay attracted because of similarities. Differences are fun, but differences also get in the way of being able to properly connect, and not connecting properly means you either feel lonely, unloved, resentful (especially when covert contracts aren't fulfilled), or stray to scratch your itches with someone else.

My half-assed hypothesis is that many/most women lack constructive (not self-destructive) "abundance" because they either:

  • Lack the ability to plan ahead to give themselves the best range of options in life (know what they want, know the cost of choices, accurately calculate risks, not be crippled by fear of failure, etc)

  • And/or lack self-acceptance (because of insecurities, hulked-out hamsters, etc), so they can't recognize a man who's a good match for them even if he fell out of the sky like their own personal Thor.

So it's best to scrap the concept of dating up / down and look more at what attracts you and if you are compatible.


[-] merel-- 2 Points about a year ago

This is much deeper than what I was thinking about. I saw value more as the superficial stuff; Career, looks, intelligence, confidence etc. I also think A LOT of women don't go into dating looking for someone with the same mindset. And if you are very compatible in that way you will overlook a lot of superficial 'flaws' from the other person.

Most of all, a man with a mindset compatible with me, is also a man whose value I can raise as his life-partner.

That is so much goals tbh